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[IISANDERII]

Yeah, that's something I said.

Hey if boycotting a single dev, while continuing to spend your money in support of similar work practices within this industry and every other industry makes you feel better, have at it. It's the thought that counts.

Yeah because raising social awareness about issues has never brought about changes. Ever.

 

[Trup1aya]

Except OP is actually doing something so saying "it's the thought that counts" doesn't really apply at all.

Every post like this is basically just a poor attempt at whataboutism at best. Or they're trying to make themselves feel better for not doing anything. Just own it, dude. But don't try to tell someone else what they're doing is worthless when you're doing even less.

Rather he thinks he's doing something, but really isn't.

I'm trying to read through my posts to find where I suggesting "doing nothing" was good.

I'm also trying to figure out where people learned I was "doing less".

I'm not having any luck in either case.

Frankly, I feel like their are much more effective and all encompassing ways to push for change in the industry beyond boycotting R*, such as actually support the pushfor labor unions within this industry and lobbying for more supply chain transparency in electronics.

 

[joecanada]

This thread has taught me that the amount of people who don't understand work life balance is scarily large.

lets face it , how many people on gaf have actual careers? I mean there's a good number of posts in this thread that are literally saying "who cares, day 0". Wait till they try to make a living at anything.

the sad truth is how many people nowadays can even create a career (full time stable decent paying jobs).

 

[Fafalada]

Doubtful. It appears they've been doing things this way since at least 2010

Much longer than that, actually.

 

[totowhoa]

Nice fallacy fella.

Nice addition to the conversation, bud. Even if somebody makes a post where every point isn't perfect, you're not free to write off everything somebody says because one thing's off. Just don't respond if you don't want to engage.

 

[CambriaRising]

I have to wonder if the devs who work there would agree with people not buying their game in protest?

Like, if they would feel like all that hard work was for nothing because you didn't buy the game anyway?

Just a thought as someone who has been in a stressful work environment and had his projects not be successful either way.

 

[sn00zer]

This is a weird line to draw in the sand considering horrible practices in literally ever other product production.

 

[Oersted]

I find speaking about it even more commendable than just boycotting. Thumbs up.

This is a weird line to draw in the sand considering horrible practices in literally ever other product production.

Having lines isn't as weird as having none.

 

[Trup1aya]

Yeah because raising social awareness about issues has never brought about changes. Ever.

I guess pointing out that many in this very industry have it much worse than game developers isn't raising awareness.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Rather he thinks he's doing something, but really isn't.

I'm trying to read through my posts to find where I suggesting "doing nothing" was good.

I'm also trying to figure out where people learned I was "doing less".

I'm not having any luck in either case.

Frankly, I feel like their are much more effective and all encompassing ways to push for change in the industry beyond boycotting R*, such as actually support the pushfor labor unions within this industry and lobbying for more supply chain transparency in electronics.

Curious, what do you think Im doing?

 

[Carnby]

Nice addition to the conversation, bud.

I call a fallacy out when I see one, pal.

Especially when it's a direct repsonse to me, buddy.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Nice fallacy fella.

You can't argue against it or even name the supposed fallacy I fell into? That's kind of sad...

 

[poodaddy]

I don't know why people are going in on you OP, I for one applaud you standing by your convictions. To be honest I was going to buy it, but your informative OP has at least made me consider the purchase more closely now. I may indeed just pick up the game used now so as to not support their methods, as I am still quite interested in the game.

 

[totowhoa]

This is a weird line to draw in the sand considering horrible practices in literally ever other product production.

I don't think he's drawing a line in the sand. People can't boycott everything. They can't be activists for everything. People pick the things they're passionate about, and they fight to improve those things.

 

[totowhoa]

I call a fallacy out when I see one, pal.

Especially when it's a direct repsonse to me, buddy.

What was the fallacy? He said a few things there, and I don't think you can write all of it off. I'm assuming you're taking issue with the piracy part though. I tried to edit my previous post you quoted to at least expand on the part you quoted instead of being as vague as I was initially.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I call a fallacy out when I see one, pal.

But you didn't. You didn't even say what fallacy.

Oh wait, you just have to say "fallacy"? The time I could have saved in argumentation through the years!

 

[Carnby]

You can't argue against it or even name the supposed fallacy I fell into? That's kind of sad...

Sure.

It would be hypocritical of me to say I won't buy something because the employees who made it were worked too hard, while having no fucking problem buying something made by slaves. That would be bullshit quite honestly.

 

[ScaryShark]

You have every right to support or not support something financially and you doing so ultimately has no impact on my life but basing it on anecdotal comments from Glassdoor and making a leap in logic that they are indicative of the majority of experiences at a company seems like poor reasoning to make this stand. Again, you don't need any logic whatsoever when it comes to what you spend your income on but using Glassdoor comments as the basis of your public call to arms is pretty weak.

 

[Tracygill]

The list of things to boycot based on working conditions is probably endless. Youd be stuck with kicking a rock as entertainment.

Hollywood can manage to produce entertainment and at the same time have unions. EA DICE(Battlefield) and parts of Ubisoft also have unions and they make games.

Television and movies count as entertainment right?

 

[kyser73]

Employee led political lobbying to change labour laws or creation of a union would be a more effective long-term approach than sales boycotts, but they are a valid action to take if the former isn't a viable path.

 

[Paquete_PT]

While sub-par working conditions should never be allowed, crunching is something I've been used to all my adult life. When it comes to do something, being it a work, presentation, art product, I just don't see how you wouldn't try to perfect it until the very last moment.
If they aren't being given the minimum conditions, meals, sleep, time-off, pay, then yeah, that's very bad, but I wouldn't expect an art work like GTA to be done with no sacrifice.

 

[Valkerionseven]

Looks like you won't be buying games in general anymore then OT. Sad as that is.

This is nothing new, and nothing unknown about game development. It's not just Rockstar thats like this either, none of them are cushy places where its a relaxed place to work and hang out, its a job and a job with a time frame to finish things.

Game development looks like one of the crappiest office jobs on paper I've seen to be honest. Things definitely need to change but as projects get bigger and pressure to release things increase... I don't see it happening.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Sure.

It would be hippocratical of me to say I won't buy something because the employees who made it were worked too hard, while having no fucking problem buying something made by slaves. That would be bullshit quite honestly.

Please read my post at the top of the last page.

EDIT: I'mma just paste it here for you.

My point is that for this particular issue, this is one of the best places to talk about it. There are definitely gaming industry eyes pointed at this website so an issue on workplace mistreatment that pertains to gaming is the right thing to focus on here. Not other consumer products unrelated to gaming.

This is how OP is choosing to take a stand and bring the issue to light and make it better known. It really should be the perfect place to do it outside of a journalist website.

To the last part of your post... When did I ever say that? In fact, one post up I even encouraged you to bring it to light if that's really where you want to spend your energy because you are actually concerned and interested in it.

You have to understand, not everyone is going to be as mentally engaged in a certain area or even have the same amount of insight which translates to power to effect change. The OP is a dev, a 10 year vet in fact. This issue is going to be more personal to him and he is going to be able to affect change in this area much more than another where he doesn't have so much inside knowledge. This is what is called an opportunity to effect change. When someone is willing to speak out about things they have personally witnessed and have more ability to effect change than others. When people rally behind these individuals movements have a chance to start which would actually do something more immediately than becoming a mountain man that doesn't buy anything mass produced.

 

[sonicmj1]

Anyone can make a Glassdoor account and spread lies. I've witnessed that a few years ago.

If that were the case, you'd think there'd be one person in the thread with more positive experiences to report.

Instead, it seems like every person with any kind of knowledge has heard awful things about working at Rockstar. The OP already has a few, but there are more.

Have heard from devs there that it is indeed hell :c

Ex-employees have said they'd rather be homeless than work for Rockstar San Diego. It's a terrible place to be. They've done little to improve it, if anything.

To add to the pile, I also know people that have worked at Rockstar (North specifically) and these reviews are not just a few bad eggs spreading lies. That company runs people into the ground and spits them out and they do it all on the foundation that you work for Rockstar and should be grateful that you do.

I'm yet another SD area dev who personally knows some ex-RSD people. They have fuck all good to say about the place and will actively warn you away. Most of them are avoiding returning to AAA because of their experience there, and have settled for a lifetime in mobile.

Remember these are the people who responded to a comment about bad communications with the head office by making some oh-so-hilarious wallpapers. They didn't even issue a boilerplate statement that they respect their employees. They went out of their way to be seen publicly laughing at their own people.

I once asked a friend if R* subsidised his rent since he was never at his flat.

Crunch is something that you have to be aware of and prepared for before you get into the industry. Yes, in an ideal world everything would go according to plan and to schedule, but in reality that is never the case.

That said, perpetual crunch is not healthy and dangerous. I know my health fairly obviously slipped when I was crunching for 1-2 months, so I can only imagine what it would do to me If it were for a few years! (Not to mention the social side of things)

Crunch should be avoided at all costs.

Even by the rock bottom standards of the video game industry, Rockstar treats its employees terribly.

 

[Trup1aya]

Curious, what do you think Im doing?

You know what, in hindsight, I shouldn't have made that comment. My apologies. I've got nothing against your take on R*'s practices and how you choose to protest.

It's just that there are bigger issues in this industry, life and death matters, that I think are more pressing. And this side of it often gets overlooked by gaming enthusiast.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Rather he thinks he's doing something, but really isn't.

He's making a ton of people aware of this issue though GAF. He's also making the devs aware that other people are aware in turn. That's, like, the most important thing one can do on GAF.

I'm trying to read through my posts to find where I suggesting "doing nothing" was good.

I'm also trying to figure out where people learned I was "doing less".

They probably learned it through an esoteric art called "noticing the bloody obvious", namely the part where the guy eager to look like the better part and putting down the guy raising awarenes, didn't go into any specifics about what the hell he did to deserve the "better part". The part where you were asked outright what you do and you replied in vague evasives was probably overkill.

Frankly, I feel like their are much more effective and all encompassing ways to push for change in the industry beyond boycotting R*, such as actually support the pushfor labor unions within this industry and lobbying for more supply chain transparency in electronics.

Interesting, have you done either? Or is this like a mathematical problem where once you've figured out the optimal solution, you're done? "It's the thought that counts" indeed.

And just for your information, that's not an option for him or for myself, being, you know, not US residents.

 

[z3phon]

You have every right to support or not support something financially and you doing so ultimately has no impact on my life but basing it on anecdotal comments from Glassdoor and making a leap in logic that they are indicative of the majority of experiences at a company seems like poor reasoning to make this stand. Again, you don't need any logic whatsoever when it comes to what you spend your income on but using Glassdoor comments as the basis of your public call to arms is pretty weak.

I dont think OP is only basing it on the Glassdoor comments. Its no secret R* has a history of terrible work enviornment.

Production nightmare on multiple projects from R* have been well documented by multiple sources that have worked there.
So i think its a little unfair to assume hes basing this on only Glassdoor comments.

 

[totowhoa]

Looks like you won't be buying games in general anymore then OT. Sad as that is.

This is nothing new, and nothing unknown about game development. It's not just Rockstar thats like this either, none of them are cushy places where its a relaxed place to work and hang out, its a job and a job with a time frame to finish things.

Game development looks like one of the crappiest office jobs on paper I've seen to be honest. Things definitely need to change but as projects get bigger and pressure to release things increase... I don't see it happening.

this just feels a bit like putting your head in the sand, though. There are ethical companies in every industry, including gaming. Games are cheaper than they've ever been before, and there are more monetization options and platforms than ever before. Things like early access, games as a service, and more should dampen the need to have strict fiscal deadlines for completely finished products, for example, and thus reduce these kinds of work conditions. Not that you necessarily need to go that route to treat your employees well.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

You know what, in hindsight, I shouldn't have made that comment. My apologies. I've got nothing against your take on R*'s practices and how you choose to protest.

It's just that there are bigger issues in this industry, life and death matters, that I think are more pressing. And this side of it often gets overlooked by gaming enthusiast.

Bro. It has to start somewhere. Change and making a difference is so hard that when you really care, you grasp at every opportunity you can to effect it in any way possible no matter how small. It all makes a difference. This is one opportunity and it is here to grab right now, in this moment, for those who would support it.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Sure.

It would be hippocratical of me to say I won't buy something because the employees who made it were worked too hard, while having no fucking problem buying something made by slaves. That would be bullshit quite honestly.

If it would be hyppocratical, then that would be a good thing, no?
In all seriousness, I regret to inform you that you also fail at grasping what a fallacy is. What you have done is restate your argument, not point out a fallacy in mine.

 

[Human Trashcan]

You know what, in hindsight, I shouldn't have made that comment. My apologies. I've got nothing against your take on R*'s practices and how you choose to protest.

It's just that there are bigger issues in this industry, life and death matters, that I think are more pressing. And this side of it often gets overlooked by gaming enthusiast.

Yeah, like I said, whataboutism.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You know what, in hindsight, I shouldn't have made that comment. My apologies. I've got nothing against your take on R*'s practices and how you choose to protest.

It's just that there are bigger issues in this industry, life and death matters, that I think are more pressing. And this side of it often gets overlooked by gaming enthusiast.

Wow, it's not often that you see the "appeal to bigger issues fallacy" stated literally as "there are bigger issues".

Also, this backing down means that you're not going to tell us what you actually do against any of these issues, are you? I mean, it's not like you've been asked several times and managed to reply to everything but that.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

You know what, in hindsight, I shouldn't have made that comment. My apologies. I've got nothing against your take on R*'s practices and how you choose to protest.

It's just that there are bigger issues in this industry, life and death matters, that I think are more pressing. And this side of it often gets overlooked by gaming enthusiast.

Hey, I dont disagree, we could literally say something in every thread to that effect: Anytime a studio closes, or has layoffs, or some of the stuff in OT.

If you have specific insight to share regarding other industries about how nVidia cards are made or whatever, thats def worth a discussion and its own topic.

I dont think OP is only basing it on the Glassdoor comments. Its not secret R* has a history of terrible work enviornment.

Production nightmare on multiple projects from R* have been well documented by multiple sources that have worked there.
So i think its a little unfair to assume hes basing this on only Glassdoor comments.

Indeed, but Im not about to start naming names and putting people in uncomfortable situations that they didnt ask to be in. Glassdoor is not always the answer to find out if a company is shitty or not, but thats a lot of reviews, written in distinctly different styles yet all talking about the same thing is very indicative of whats going on there ... and like I said, plenty of other places have echoed comments similar to those reviews.

 

[fester]

I don't know why people are going in on you OP, I for one applaud you standing by your convictions.

Common reaction when people feel a twinge of guilt and rather than spend time in self-reflection, they lash out at the messenger. Happens a lot when discussing any topic when others have taken a principled (but non-judgmental) stand on something others have not. See vegetarian discussions as an example.

 

[Trup1aya]

My point is that for this particular issue, this is one of the best places to talk about it. There are definitely gaming industry eyes pointed at this website so an issue on workplace mistreatment that pertains to gaming is the right thing to focus on here. Not other consumer products unrelated to gaming.

This is how OP is choosing to take a stand and bring the issue to light and make it better known. It really should be the perfect place to do it outside of a journalist website.

To the last part of your post... When did I ever say that? In fact, one post up I even encouraged you to bring it to light if that's really where you want to spend your energy because you are actually concerned and interested in it.

You have to understand, not everyone is going to be as mentally engaged in a certain area or even have the same amount of insight which translates to power to effect change. The OP is a dev, a 10 year vet in fact. This issue is going to be more personal to him and he is going to be able to affect change in this area much more than another where he doesn't have so much inside knowledge. This is what is called an opportunity to effect change. When someone is willing to speak out about things they have personally witnessed and have more ability to effect change than others. When people rally behind these individuals movements have a chance to start which would actually do something more immediately than becoming a mountain man that doesn't buy anything mass produced.

I'm really not understanding the point of your replies to me...

Never did I suggest that this wasn't the place for such a discussion.

I actually DID bring to light the issues I take with the industry.

And I also suggested that fighting for dev QoL was worthwhile. I just think that boycotting R* isn't effective.

 

[Carnby]

Please read my post at the top of the last page.

EDIT: I'mma just paste it here for you.

While I don't 100% agree, I want to comend you on your thoughtful and well written post.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Common reaction when people feel a twinge of guilt and rather than spend time in self-reflection, they lash out at the messenger. Happens a lot when discussing any topic when others have taken a principled (but non-judgmental) stand on something others have not. See vegetarian discussions as an example.

Ding ding ding.
The vegetarian example is perfect, because I love me some meat and simply can't do without it, but as an animal lover I do feel guilt about it and admire vegetarians. However most other people seem to prefer to attack and invalidate vegetarians to feel better about themselves. I can't say I don't see the attraction of trying to remove one's guilt that easily, but I simply can't lie to myself in such a way (not to say I can't lie to myself in plenty others, but that's another matter).

 

[IISANDERII]

You have every right to support or not support something financially and you doing so ultimately has no impact on my life but basing it on anecdotal comments from Glassdoor and making a leap in logic that they are indicative of the majority of experiences at a company seems like poor reasoning to make this stand. Again, you don't need any logic whatsoever when it comes to what you spend your income on but using Glassdoor comments as the basis of your public call to arms is pretty weak.

There are plenty of sources even within this thread.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm really not understanding the point of your replies to me...

Never did I suggest that this wasn't the place for such a discussion.

I actually DID bring to light the issues I take with the industry.

And I also suggested that fighting for dev QoL was worthwhile. I just think that boycotting R* isn't effective.

Again, if you care that much about all those other issues, make a thread about them. Don't shit on others threads when they're exposing issues just because you feel there are more important ones.

By only mentioning those bigger issues in the context of diminishing the importance of other issues, you reveal your agenda for what it is: morally justifying yourself for doing nothing against either.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's quite telling what perspective gamers have on the whole 'oh those poor workers' thing when they (us) reward one of the worst companies regarding the matter with their products becoming the most successful one in history of video gaming.

 

[DanielJr82]

If you don't buy the game then they won't get paid.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

I'm really not understanding the point of your replies to me...

Never did I suggest that this wasn't the place for such a discussion.

I actually DID bring to light the issues I take with the industry.

And I also suggested that fighting for dev QoL was worthwhile. I just think that boycotting R* isn't effective.

This is what I was responding to.

The point of my post was to highlight the fact that avoiding this particular product won't actually bring him closer to his goals if he continues to be a consumer of other products- and not just gaming products, but consumer products in general.

If that opens his eyes, or the eyes of those who share his interest in deinsentivizing the poor work practices brought on by consumerism, then I think that helps.

I can't help but notice that the OPs post invoked many comments about how bad the gaming industry is. But really the problems is industry .

 

[watdaeff4]

Interesting discussion. It's actually making me question in whether to support them anymore.

 

[Data West]

Wait until I tell you the work conditions your console was put together in

 

[Trup1aya]

Hey, I dont disagree, we could literally say something in every thread to that effect: Anytime a studio closes, or has layoffs, or some of the stuff in OT.

If you have specific insight to share regarding other industries about how nVidia cards are made or whatever, thats def worth a discussion and its own topic.

Not really a specific insight into nvidia, but many electronics companies don't know, or pretend not to know where the minerals used to make their cards come from. They actively lobby government to relax transparency laws. The reason for this is because much of the supply is actually sourced by African warlords who use slave and child labor to mine the metals.

Then many of our electronics are manufactured in sweatshops using minerals sourced by this slave labor.

The QoL of a game developer is luxurious compared to the lives of many others who's work allows us to be entertained.

 

[Gunmonkey36]

I get the point of standing up with your dollar. It just seems futile. If the titles didn't sell they'd just shut down the studio. It sucks to see unfortunate working conditions. It sucks to see people overworked to follow their dreams. It's just the reality of the industry. The developers made the choice themselves. The large majority of them know they can go get a job writing software or web applications with 100x better work life balance. They like almost any developer are getting hit up with recruitment offers from everyone. They choose to stay for dreams of creating games. There are also 1000s more waiting for them to quit and take their place. This is the industry and I don't see how it will ever change. You can't easily unionize. There are floods of people that would gladly take your place when you tried and all the major AAA studios would welcome them with open arms. Until the supply of dream chasing young developers who want to make the next hit title dry up working conditions won't improve.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I'd think their current staff would be proud of their accomplishment. When I opened up Final Fantasy XV I received a manual print out of the development team's signatures. I realize this doesn't include people who were outsourced, those who provided moral support, and those who possibly got fired/quit during the development.

Say one person at Rockstar goes home happy today while another doesn't. What if there's a staff member at Rockstar right now who is doing good in his life and is happy that he made something for the game? Is that not a good thing?

There's so many different ways to look at it. I'm sure someone up at Rockstar is working hard for that GOTY 2018 and he wants us to support him. He is also in the same field as the other designers upset about this.

Those games need more than few hundred people right? I wonder how much RDR2 even costs to develop. It can't be cheap and it can't be easy to manage either.

 

[Trup1aya]

Again, if you care that much about all those other issues, make a thread about them. Don't shit on others threads when they're exposing issues just because you feel there are more important ones.

By only mentioning those bigger issues in the context of diminishing the importance of other issues, you reveal your agenda for what it is: morally justifying yourself for doing nothing against either.

How am I justifying doing nothing? I've suggesting things that I consider to be more effective... things that I actually do.

I think all of these issues are important. But I also think it's misguided to boycott for just labor practices withinthe gaming industry, while simultaneously continuing to invest in unjust labor practices within the same industry.

 

[boltz]

OP, I appreciate you making a thread like this, as it's always interesting to read about and discuss the goings on in the gaming industry.

It's also pretty ridiculous the amount of people trying to hand wave your conviction away by saying that there are worse things to worry about. Sure, there are worse injustices in the world, but this is a forum where people rage about framerates and consoles sales numbers. I think it's worthwhile for the OP to try to have an engaging discussion on developer work/life balance.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Last week, when Bungie talked about the people "killing themselves" to make sure the game was ready in September, my first thought was "it's okay, I'd rather you delay it than make people do that."

but it's telling that the general assumption is that AAA work is rough and That's The Way It Has To Be.

First thing I thought of when I started reading the OP. I didn't like that line making light of such a terrible working condition.