Support NeoGAF

[ShadyMilkman]

Well, if you made games worth buying, this probably wouldn't be a problem.

 

[SephirothRK]

This applies more to the English version than the Japanese version, but:

-Long load times (in my experience some were like ~8-12 seconds, some were a more negligible ~6, even the item images had a noticeable load time, lol)
-Poor framerate when walking on the world map
-Various kinds of glitches

Here's a guide describing more notable glitches:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/929343-tales-of-the-abyss/faqs/46167

Some have to be done intentionally, some you have to hope don't pop up (or wait until game fixes itself), and some aren't really "glitches" but might be weird flaws. It's somewhat annoying, but I don't think there's anything in the game that so bad it prevents you from completing it.

tbh, for me anyways I didn't mind most of those "technical mess". Abyss was pure fun for me. 200+ hours on it.

 

[Rpgmonkey]

Can't say I agree at all.

First, the game getting good reviews or not is irrelevant to most people. People like a game or not based on their own experience, not anybody else's. If people wanted more of Tales, then they would have bought them.

Second, I think marketing had little to do with Symphonia's success, and I think word of mouth was actually quite negative about the game. I think the biggest reason it had success was your second reason: being a Japanese RPG released in an unsaturated market. The game was bound for some type of success regardless of everything else.

Symphonia's quality would be a huge indicator of why the subsequent games have not had as much success. Symphonia's success is exactly why you can't really blame marketing; people did give the series a shot, and it didn't go over well. If people wanted more Tales, they'd buy more Tales. They didn't/don't, though.

Symphonia's success is the result of many things, it's probably wrong to look at one thing and point to it as the sole reason for its success and the reason later games failed. Reviews aren't the whole picture, simply an indicator that critical response was positive overall. Marketing was another part, it got somewhat more of a push than Tales games usually get, and sold the game as something a little different in a genre dominated by say, Final Fantasy and Pokemon.

You're going to have to give me some reason to believe word of mouth was negative. There are people that don't like it, as with many games, but I've seen nothing that gives me the impression that there's a widespread consensus that the game was bad. Maybe I just didn't travel through the internet enough back then or something.

If you say the only reason for Symphonia's success was because the people that bought it only had a Gamecube and were craving a JRPG, then that should be a sign that it wasn't just quality that detracted most people from Legendia/Abyss, it was that the people that may have wanted to buy more Tales games couldn't get them in the first place.

I think there are several reasons why Tales games after Symphonia have met with much lower sales. Lack of marketing, poor quality, not an interesting game, genre saturation, being at the wrong place at the wrong time. But I don't think Symphonia's quality is the one and only reason why they've sold far, far less.

tbh, for me anyways I didn't mind most of those "technical mess". Abyss was pure fun for me. 200+ hours on it.

Honestly, it may have been somewhat of an exaggeration on my part.

 

[Coxswain]

I know it's not a popular opinion on GAF, but I think once people actually played and bought Symphonia way back when (that is, when they finally stopped hearing about the Tales series and actually sat down with it and put some time into it), they found out that they didn't really like the game at all. I think Symphonia's success was its own beginning of the end.

This really sounds like you're projecting a very specific, personal experience you (and maybe a couple other people you've talked to) had onto the majority of people who played the game. Symphonia was generally quite well regarded, by critics and ordinary players.

The gap between it and the other Tales games in sales might have been due to it being in exactly the right place at the very best time, rather than all the other games being mismanaged, but Symphonia certainly didn't sour public opinion on the franchise.

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

I honestly didn't know people actively disliked Symphonia until I came to GAF. Everyone I've spoke to IRL who's played it (that's at least 7-8 friends of mine ranging from hardcore gamers to people who don't normally play RPGs) loved the game.
I think the success partially came from Nintendo, though. I originally found out about it because it was a Nintendo Power cover story.

 

[wrowa]

Why has no one bothered yet to say what is written in the article? :x

 

[loosus]

This really sounds like you're projecting a very specific, personal experience you (and maybe a couple other people you've talked to) had onto the majority of people who played the game. Symphonia was generally quite well regarded, by critics and ordinary players.

The gap between it and the other Tales games in sales might have been due to it being in exactly the right place at the very best time, rather than all the other games being mismanaged, but Symphonia certainly didn't sour public opinion on the franchise.

Oh, okay. Then I guess we'll just say everything was just mishandled and call it a day. :lol

 

[Rahxephon91]

Well probably the reason the Tales series didn't get off the ground here is because none of them were on the console that the most successful one here was.

But yeah I bought Symphonia well after the fanfare for it and wasn't a big fan of it. I kind of hate the game really, but I gave Abyss a chance and it was amazing with Vesperia being a bit less awesome.

I'm not sure the series could ever be popular here though. Its aesthetics aren't that appealing.

 

[wrowa]

Well probably the reason the Tales series didn't get off the ground here is because none of them were on the console that the most successful one here was.

That argument doesn't make a lot of sense, since ToS was one of the most successful RPGs of the last generation even though it was released on the GameCube.

Actually, for jRPG standarts both Vesperia and Symphonia 2 sold fairly decent, since both should have at least crossed the 150k mark in the US. That's quite a bit more than most other jRPGs can achieve nowadays.

 

[DiscoJer]

Namco is one of those companies that apparently needs money, yet refuses to put its back catalog up on PSN (either PSP or PS1). Which is basically free money.

Now admittedly, it might not be much free money. But it's something for almost no effort, since I believe Sony does all the work...

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

That argument doesn't make a lot of sense, since ToS was one of the most successful RPGs of the last generation even though it was released on the GameCube.

Actually, for jRPG standarts both Vesperia and Symphonia 2 sold fairly decent, since both should have at least crossed the 150k mark in the US. That's quite a bit more than most other jRPGs can achieve nowadays.

Which makes it more bizarre to why they won't localize Vesperia PS3 and Graces.

And why they never brought over the DS games is beyond me.

It's like Namco-Bandai wants the series to fail.

 

[Rahxephon91]

That argument doesn't make a lot of sense, since ToS was one of the most successful RPGs of the last generation even though it was released on the GameCube.

Huh? My argument is that because none of the follow up games were on the Gamecube is why the series never picked up steam here.

The game got a lot of attention here because it was only on Gamecube. Abyss would have also gotten that same level of attention. Except it was decided that it would launch on the PS2 were it would have to fight a lot more for attention and it would lose because FFXII would launch right near it.

Obviously the USA success of Symphiona didn't pay much into what console Namco decided to release Abyss on. Didn't the Symphiona port do better then GCN version in Japan? Either way if Namco wanted to grow the series here it should have thought about some GCN version of Abyss.

Actually, for jRPG standarts both Vesperia and Symphonia 2 sold fairly decent, since both should have at least crossed the 150k mark in the US. That's quite a bit more than most other jRPGs can achieve nowadays

I'm sure Namco expected a lot more for Vesperia since they went all out with the localization.

 

[wrowa]

Huh? My argument is that because none of the follow uo games were on the Gamecube is why the series never picked up steam here.

The game got a lot of attention here because it was only on Gamecube. Abyss would have also gotten that same level of attention. Except it was decided that it would launch on the PS2 were it would have to fight a lot more for attention and it would lose because FFXII would launch right near it.

Whoops, somehow I missed the last part of the sentence :x

Yeah, with the decision to develop Abyss only for the PS2 Namco really didn't do Namco USA any favors. It's like they didn't even care about the 500k units Symphonia sold in the US.

I'm sure Namco expected a lot more for Vesperia since they went all out with the localization.

Which is again something that shows how incredibly dumb Namco's business decisions can be.

Expecting an anime-ish RPG to sell a lot more than 150k in the US on the Xbox of all consoles is just ... stupid.

 

[Phoenix Fang]

Worst news ever. Tales of Vesperia is one of the absolute best JRPG's ever made. I can't believe it didn't sell.

That's because Sony Gaf doesn't like buying games. They rather wait a year for a port that my never get localised.

Which is again something that shows how incredibly dumb Namco's business decisions can be.

Expecting an anime-ish RPG to sell a lot more than 150k in the US on the Xbox of all consoles is just ... stupid.

I didn't see the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata lighting up the charts when it was released stateside. Matter of fact it did worse than the 360 version IIRC. Matter of fact other than FF VIII, PS3 RPGs haven't been selling good either. How are those sales of Valkyria Chronicles?

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

This is just me, but maybe the Tales team should revamp their cutesy character designs and do something more Valkyria Chronicles-like or like Rogue Galaxy? How about like the Fire Emblem character designs? More realistic with none of that chibi big-eyed anime look.

And they should stop it with the girls with pink or neon hair color. This may just be my own taste but I'd prefer normal hair like a blonde, red, or brunette. Tear in Abyss is a good example. I just don't like the pink or light purple hair in Vesperia and Graces.

Maybe the Japanese market is getting sick of it. They all feel the same. I know you shouldn't fix what isn't broken but it's hard to get excited about a Tales game because we already know what to expect.

This series needs a makeover. Nothing like Bomberman Act Zero but definitely something different at least. They should try to come up with more mature and darker stories instead of the same cookie cutter anime fare.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

This is just me, but maybe the Tales team should revamp their cutesy character designs and do something more Valkyria Chronicles-like or like Rogue Galaxy?

Cause those games sold way better.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I didn't see the PS3 version of Eternal Sonata lighting up the charts when it was released stateside. Matter of fact it did worse than the 360 version IIRC. Matter of fact other than FF VIII, PS3 RPGs haven't been selling good either. How are those sales of Valkyria Chronicles?

Well there have been very few quality jrpgs for the system.

Valkyria Chronicles is a victim of Sega so idk if it makes a valid point.

Demon Souls is pretty niche and it was brought over here by Atlus. It apparently did pretty good for them ,but its not a title that's going to get a big push.

White Knight Chronicles. How did this do? I thought it did pretty decently ,but I'm not sure.

And that's really it. Yeah there's NIS games ,but those have a very small audience. These games if marketed right could have possibly been bigger hits then they already are.

On 360 a few jrpgs have done ok. TLR, Lost Odyssey, and Star Ocean must have done decently. LO selling I think over 500k.

Expecting an anime-ish RPG to sell a lot more than 150k in the US on the Xbox of all consoles is just ... stupid.

Pretty much. But I do think JRPGs can sell here if marketed decently.

 

[klee123]

Can't say I'm surprised. It's pretty much their fault for spreading the releases over multiple systems and not letting other US publishers handling the English version.

With regards to ES. It doesn't help that it was very poorly received on the 360 and the bad word of mouth killed any sort of sales potential of the PS3 version and that's not even considering that it was released one year after the 360 version.

Same goes with star ocean 4 really. Bad word of mouth plus 1 year old port does not get good results.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I hope to god no one bought Eternal Sonata on PS3. They were warned.

 

[loosus]

Pretty much. But I do think JRPGs can sell here if marketed decently.

I think this is part of everybody's problem in this thread. People in the West are being turned off from things that look acutely Japanese. Look at anime; it's in a dire state compared to ten years ago. People just are not going for stuff that looks obnoxiously Japanese.

Nintendo is so successful because it's largely not appealing to this crowd, despite its Japanese roots.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I think this is part of everybody's problem in this thread. People in the West are being turned off from things that look acutely Japanese. Look at anime; it's in a dire state compared to ten years ago. People just are not going for stuff that looks obnoxiously Japanese.

Nintendo is so successful because it's largely not appealing to this crowd, despite its Japanese roots.

You don't think Final Fantasy XIII was obnoxiously Japanese?

 

[loosus]

You don't think Final Fantasy XIII was obnoxiously Japanese?

Do I think that it has a big name attached to it? Yes, I do. It's certainly an exception rather than the rule.

 

[SimpleDesign]

You don't think Final Fantasy XIII was obnoxiously Japanese?

Are we calling Final Fantasy XIII an RPG now?

/Bioware

 

[Rahxephon91]

FFXIII is very Japanese ,but if you ask me most FF games do not look like your typical anime.

Its not Japanese art design thats off putting to some gamers. It really is the typical anime look. FFXIII is in line with other Japanese games like MGS4, DMC4, and Lost Planet. All look very Japanese and look different art wise compared to western games and were all very successful in the west. Also LO was pretty successful and did not have the stereotypical anime look. All of these games are distinctly Japanese in art style, gameplay, and design. So I don't think it is really the stereotypical anime look that is unappealing ,but not the Japanese style. Sure MGS4 and FFXIII are big names ,but if you were to show just character pictures of Lighting and say Estelle, I'd say Lighting would appeal more to the average gamer.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Do I think that it has a big name attached to it? Yes, I do. It's certainly an exception rather than the rule.

So big names are exempt from the "Too Japanese" pile?

I won't deny that anime popularity has declined in the west recently but the fanbase is still there and even overtly Japanese games can sell well if marketed right. Just look at Bayonetta or Persona 4.

 

[jrricky]

They completely failed to capitalise on the success of Symphonia. It was pretty amazing, actually.

Yea, game sells 300K+(?) on Gamecube...lets make more tales PS2 games...

oh yea...and Namco should die after the missing Graces at E3 no matter what...

 

[ZealousD]

What would you think of a Tales of made from a reborn Wolfteam under Square-Enix publishing? Serious question.

It basically already exists. It's called Star Ocean.

And I hate Star Ocean. They may get the gameplay right but everything else is a fucking mess.

 

[Sophia]

Just look at Bayonetta or Persona 4.

Bayonetta's less anime and more "completely over the fucking top." :lol

You're right on Persona, tho.

 

[Zengar]

Meh, as long as it doesn't affect Banpresto's super robot wars team, I couldn't care less.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Bayonetta's less anime and more "completely over the fucking top." :lol

I agree but in a lot of gamers' eyes, completely over the fucking top=Japanese. I've heard so many people refuse to play Bayonetta because it's "Too Japanese". I honestly don't know how that's relevant or even where people are pulling that from.

 

[Mo0]

Well, the art style may not be explicitly Japanese, but the soundtrack is, and the gameplay borrows heavily from quite Japanese franchise Devil May Cry.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Some people just can't handle the awesomeness of Bayonetta. A "friend" of mine said it looked silly. That friend is now dead.

 

[ZealousD]

So big names are exempt from the "Too Japanese" pile?

I won't deny that anime popularity has declined in the west recently but the fanbase is still there and even overtly Japanese games can sell well if marketed right. Just look at Bayonetta or Persona 4.

Persona sells well for what it is, but it doesn't sell tremendously better than the Tales franchise or anything.

There's really two big problems with the Tales franchise that put it in this position.

1.) Platform schizophrenia. Tales games are always either platform exclusive or timed exclusive. And yet their platform choice is always seemingly random. You never know which platform the next game will show up on. And so if you are a Tales fan, you basically have to own every single console. They need to pick a horse and stick with it.

2.) Poor overseas handling. Really don't need to explain this one.

And both of these problems can easily be fixed by a publisher that knows what the fuck its doing. But Namco sure as hell doesn't.

 

[Sophia]

I'd say there's been a poor handling of spinoff/sequel titles too. Did someone at Namco/Tales Studio really think it was good idea to use Pokemon elements in Dawn Of The New World? :lol

 

[nemesun]

I thoroughly enjoyed Vesperia on 360, I think it's the best JRPG offering on home-consoles this gen. I do think age of JRPGs on home-consoles are long past. The development cycle is long and excruciatingly expensive. Most people including me, prefer playing old school JRPG on handheld. currently I'm brisking through FF IX on my psp and I find the experience more enjoyable than when I played it on PS1 10 years ago.

 

[Coxswain]

Just look at Bayonetta or Persona 4.

Bayonetta aside, I'm pretty sure that Persona 4 sold pretty much in the same ballpark as Vesperia (in NA). The difference between the two is in Atlus-sized versus Namco-sized expectations.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Persona sells well for what it is, but it doesn't sell tremendously better than the Tales franchise or anything.

I think if Atlus was the size of Namco, they could probably push it a lot more. Maybe have a few TV spots. It could potentially cross the 300k barrier and then increase with each new entry. For Atlus' size, Persona sales are nothing short of amazing.

Edit: Coxswain understands my point.

 

[Sophia]

I do think age of JRPGs on home-consoles are long past.

I don't think this is the case. Keep in mind, we haven't seen too many good JRPG efforts on the home console this generation of consoles. Tales of Vesperia is among the best.

Shame Tales of Vesperia isn't on Games on Demand at a reasonable price. I feel like playing it now. :lol

 

[Big B]

here's an idea, localize RPGs for consoles that are starving for those RPGs.

 

[FSLink]

tbh, for me anyways I didn't mind most of those "technical mess". Abyss was pure fun for me. 200+ hours on it.

Yeah, that's because Abyss was a pretty solid Tales game.
The problem is how much of a downgrade it is with the load times compared to their last work (Symphonia GC), and it's obvious that the main problem is because they rushed the PS2 Symphonia port and used it as a base.

It's pretty saddening that they were working on better localizations...look at Vesperia and Dawn of the New World. Voiced skits, English opening for Vesperia, talesrpg.com website established for the entire series, near simultaneous release to the Japan game (Vesperia), better dub and localization quality overall (with some Typos due to the simultaneous release, but I didn't personally notice any glaring ones in DotNW)...

then it just stopped. Talesrpg.com website never updated, official Tales forums never updated (geez, we still have the same damn banner for Symphonia/Legendia/Abyss, no one's around to update the thing to the banner from the fan contest)

I'd say there's been a poor handling of spinoff/sequel titles too. Did someone at Namco/Tales Studio really think it was good idea to use Pokemon elements in Dawn Of The New World? :lol

Someone apparently thought it was a good idea to release the CG edition for Tales and even have the boxart for the CG version mimic Final Fantasy box arts. :lol

 

[SonicX_Zero]

There's a team that has been working on translating both the PS2 and PSP versions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOatZVk0_NU

fffuuuuuuu!!! :O

It seems this translation team doesn't have a site yet when I tried searching in google. In any case its great news that there are still people who care about the Japan only PS2 Tales.

 

[nemesun]

I don't think this is the case. Keep in mind, we haven't seen too many good JRPG efforts on the home console this generation of consoles. Tales of Vesperia is among the best.

Shame Tales of Vesperia isn't on Games on Demand at a reasonable price. I feel like playing it now. :lol

I absolutely think that's the case. Unfortunately eastern studios weren't as well prepared for this gen as their Western counterparts; who were well established PC developers long before they entered the home-console market. Bioware, and Bethesda both understood the nature of the beast and were fully prepared to keep-up with the graphical and technical advancement of home-consoles, while eastern studios were inadequately short-handed and had little to no resources to keep up with the market's demands.

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

I don't think this is the case. Keep in mind, we haven't seen too many good JRPG efforts on the home console this generation of consoles. Tales of Vesperia is among the best.

Shame Tales of Vesperia isn't on Games on Demand at a reasonable price. I feel like playing it now. :lol

Yeah. Seeing how well Final Fantasy XIII sold, JRPGs are still relevant.

But Tales have always been sort of niche but I always thought it did pretty well. I think releasing Vesperia on the 360 was a huge mistake by Namco Bandai, not just here but especially in Japan.

And Dawn of the New World was terrible. And when they finally get a game right like Graces, they don't even care to bring it over.

No wonder they're in trouble.

 

[SimpleDesign]

I'm pretty sure I read that they received money and support from Microsoft to make Vesperia so releasing it on the 360 makes sense.

Not releasing the PS3 version in the West was a bad decision by Namco. Tales of Vesperia could have sold over a million copies if they had. They already shipped 500,000 copies on the Xbox.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

You mean the people at Tales Studio moving to tri-Ace and SE getting the Tales property?

After all this time, I'm not really sure what that'd entail in terms of design or quality.



The game got fairly good reviews and much of its sales outside of Japan come from having a bit more of a marketing push than your usual Tales game, being an above-average new RPG released in an unsaturated market, and strong/positive word of mouth.

I'm not sure why Symphonia's quality and reception should be high on the "list of reasons why Tales games 'bomb'". If anything that claim would be better placed on the lukewarm/negative reaction to Legendia, and Abyss being a technical mess, both on a system with plenty of higher quality and/or more polished RPGs.

Which was NOT the system that had a Tales of game from the same team that sold eleventy billion on, and just before a huge twelfth installment of That Other Series on said non-GC system.

I could go on all night describing flubs from the last generation alone. Sucks; I've never regretted playing a Tales game, and they've been losing more and more of the weaker parts as time's went on. Was mad hyped for ToG because of this.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Tales studio in trouble? Release their games in the US (Graces, Innocence, etc.) and then I'd probably care... their games are good, but how much does it matter if Namco keeps refusing to allow most of their games to be released outside of Japan? It's frustrating of course, but if Namco's insisting on being stupid, I can't be THAT sad if they fail.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I know this is won't be popular but I don't really mind if they take a hit so long as Bandai Namcom is alright, I just don't want anything to stand in the way of future Gundam VS Games.

That and I find it hard to care when I thought Symphonia was bad and I hated Vesperia, but I did want to try Graces so eh.

 

[thetechkid]

I know this is won't be popular but I don't really mind if they take a hit so long as Bandai Namcom is alright, I just don't want anything to stand in the way of future Gundam VS Games.

That and I find it hard to care when I thought Symphonia was bad and I hated Vesperia, but I did want to try Graces so eh.

What?

 

[trinest]

Besides Tales, what does Bandi/Namco really have IP wise.

 

[Cynar]

I think this is part of everybody's problem in this thread. People in the West are being turned off from things that look acutely Japanese. Look at anime; it's in a dire state compared to ten years ago. People just are not going for stuff that looks obnoxiously Japanese.

Nintendo is so successful because it's largely not appealing to this crowd, despite its Japanese roots.

:lol you can't be serious