I'm still going to place the lion's share of blame on the DRM policies and the "yeah, I suppose it also plays games, but have you seen those TV features?!" mentality for the Xbone's current woes. To Microsoft's credit, they've bent over backwards trying to reverse a lot of those poor decisions, but many people are still bitter that they attempted them in the first place.
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Techspot 'Xbox One's struggles are traceable to one bad decision'
- Thread starter jelly
- Start date
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Xbox One's struggles had nothing to do with power, and everything to do with their original anticonsumer vision. That was a train wreck that spread like wildfire on social media. The fact that PS4 is more powerful, and was $100 cheaper ensured that Microsoft wouldn't be bouncing off the ropes, but rather hitting the mat.
Lucky for them they've made the changes they needed, and are really offering some great deals as well as very strong content. Gamers will forgive and forget as time goes on, as long as you provide them with a killer library of games.
That's a very nearsighted outlook considering the X1 and PS4 will outlast the Wii U for a number of years, as their libraries keep growing.
Lucky for them they've made the changes they needed, and are really offering some great deals as well as very strong content. Gamers will forgive and forget as time goes on, as long as you provide them with a killer library of games.
That's a very nearsighted outlook considering the X1 and PS4 will outlast the Wii U for a number of years, as their libraries keep growing.
stupid article is stupid. No a console war is not determined by one decission.
There isn't even a lot of reasoning in that article, it's mostly "I have a gut feeling that it is due to the ram" There could be an equal or better case be made for other bad decissions like drm or higher price point due to kinect. There could even be a case made that no matter what ms would have done, sony would have won. Last time they were pretty much head to head and the xb360 had better multis, 200$ cheaper price, and was A FULL YEAR faster to market. These are huuuuge advantages, still only managed to match sony. The playstation brand is fin strong.
There isn't even a lot of reasoning in that article, it's mostly "I have a gut feeling that it is due to the ram" There could be an equal or better case be made for other bad decissions like drm or higher price point due to kinect. There could even be a case made that no matter what ms would have done, sony would have won. Last time they were pretty much head to head and the xb360 had better multis, 200$ cheaper price, and was A FULL YEAR faster to market. These are huuuuge advantages, still only managed to match sony. The playstation brand is fin strong.
Derpcrawler
Member
Xbox would be slightly more powerful, because ESRAM + APU takes more die space than whole PS4 APU. They would either end up exactly same or if Microsoft would keep die budget, get GDDR5 and drop ESRAM Xbox would have extra 2-4 CUs over PS4, if they would use same CPU.
Lockjaw333
Member
IMO its actually the GPU that's the problem. The 8GB DDR3 with 32mb esram could have stood up reasonably well against the 8GB of GDDR5. However if your GPU is significantly less powerful, then you have no shot at parity.
It seems to me that the resolution disparity between the two consoles has more to do with the different in GPU power than the pools of RAM.
It seems to me that the resolution disparity between the two consoles has more to do with the different in GPU power than the pools of RAM.
Triggerhappytel
Member
I'd argue the console's struggles can be traced back to their open contempt of their audience when developing and revealing it.
Derpcrawler
Member
No, it's more complex than that. Microsoft wanted 8Gb RAM from the get go, back then only 2-4Gb of GDDR5 was possible and they didn't want to make 2 huge RAM/VRAM pulls, so ESRAM acted as a band aid to DDR3 performance issues, due to nature of on die memory it took way too much space from APU. Read my post above, if not for ESRAM Xbox would have bigger APU than PS4.
Sony got lucky that GDDR5 just barely did hit the density needed to ship PS4 with 8Gb, there was much higher chance that PS4 would end up with 4Gb of RAM.
Derpcrawler
Member
What does technical aspects have to do with games being fun? The game if it's fun will be fun regardless, that was no the point of the article.
LowEndTorque
Member
From the article:
lol @ "the exact same hardware". A website called "tech spot" that doesn't even understand that the biggest difference between the two consoles is the GPU and not the RAM. Garbage article written by someone who apparently doesn't understand what they are talking about.
lol @ "the exact same hardware". A website called "tech spot" that doesn't even understand that the biggest difference between the two consoles is the GPU and not the RAM. Garbage article written by someone who apparently doesn't understand what they are talking about.
BruiserBear
Banned
This analysis is hilariously off the mark IMO. Bundling the kinect and a $500 price point was a huge mistake, and the DRM policies were equally damaging. Those two things had way more impact than some games running at a lower resolution on XB1. I understand the site writing this has a tech perspective, but try and see outside that narrow box you're in.
This quote was also a bit silly.
More resources? Better games? I guess he's talking purely about resolution here? That doesn't require "more resources", it requires a stronger GPU, which the PS4 has.
This quote was also a bit silly.
More resources? Better games? I guess he's talking purely about resolution here? That doesn't require "more resources", it requires a stronger GPU, which the PS4 has.
PS3 made it's lack of sales in NA and US up with mostly sales in mainland EU and JP of course. Different territories, different priorities. I'm not saying brandpower alone is the reason, but a combination of things. Still, PS4 is marketed as a must have "lifestyle" product like an iphone and is pretty popular with kids and teens too. I think Sony willingly and also randomly nailed the "playstation" phrase and that's why it's selling so much. As conservative as the console is, Sony managed to differenciate it from the competition with clever design and marketing and with help of the word of mouth.
Still a very mediocre performance, if you consider the price, launchdate, games library, great online. In all keymarkets, 360 performed better than the original xbox but was nowhere as close to Sony. I'm talking about Germany, France, Italy and Spain. And do not underestimate Sonys efforts in the last few years with PS3 and their support with exclusives, they struggled but maintained the brandpower, and we will never now how 360 performed if it hasn't been for the stop in brand and portfolio development.
Putting 8GB of DDR3 or a beefier on die GPU wouldn't have done much. You're limited by your bus speeds and the bottleneck is between the DDR3 and eSRAM.
And that's the issue. You can't increase the eSRAM pool without drastically increasing production costs (lowering yields) due to the size on die. That also leaves less room for the CPU/GPU. Increasing the GPU makes no sense when you're limited to a 32MB buffer.
This is the no good options decision of going with a DDR3 machine.
joey_bone_bomb
Member
First of all, most people won't be buying 2 consoles and will have to make a decision between the two.
Second of all, there must be a reason behind you choosing PS4 for multiplats and XBox just for exclusives, no?
To be fair if PS4 continues to outsell XB1 at this pace i could see developers doing more optimization for PS4, pushing for better framerates or more graphical effects basically investing more time in the PS4 version.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
Pretty much, it wasn't only one thing that made Sony so successful it was a combination of Microsoft's mistakes and Sony's handling of those mistakes.Once you add all that stuff up the Xbox one had a certain perception that made it a hard sell, that's why Microsoft is doing a crazy 350 bundle. I don't understand how Microsoft could fuck up so bad this gen, they fucked up bad.....kinda like Sony last gen except i don't think Microsoft has the worldwide brand recognition to recover unlike Sony. Playstation 4 won this gen and i don´t think Microsoft can really do anything to change that.
Baron_Calamity
Member
I blame the failure so far of the Xbox One on one thing:
The lack of J Allard
The lack of J Allard
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
I seem to remember someone (Cerny?) saying in an interview that they took a real gamble with the GDDR5, as they may have had to make do with 4GB at the time. Thankfully the gamble paid off.
nullpoynter
Member
Exactly, first impressions mean everything. I still have a sour taste in my mouth from that launch. I know others who haven't transitioned to the next-gen yet, and they're still considering the PS4 mainly due to the One's launch disaster.
Bingo.
I'm really amazed at how many don't realize that the Playstation brand is simply more popular worldwide. MS made mistakes no doubt but even if they didn't the results would more than likely be the same. You pointed it out -- PS3 still matched the Xbox 360 in sales even though the latter came out a year earlier. Foreign countries (outside of US and UK) helped with that.
I would go as far as to say that releasing one year (or more) ahead of the PS4 was the only way the Xbox One could have beat the system in overall sales. It was pretty much a wrap in terms of who would be "number one" this ten when it was stated that both consoles would release at the same time (months before they launched).
There were none that both ran-worse and at 50% lower resolution - I'm not sure that ever happened in history of consoles actually - there's certainly no historical precedent for lower-resolution on one platform being a standard.TechnicPuppet said:
Not to mention PS3 actually had a few multiplatforms that ran at higher-resolution and/or had other improvements.
Black Mantis
Member
Nah, it was definitely more than the article makes out. I bought mine at launch, but if there was one thing that would've put me off, it would have been down to the system being released in a broken state, which is what some of the "insiders" would have you believe.
In terms of the public at large, MS should have taken a hit on Kinect and swallowed the cost. The confused messaging around the always online and buying/selling used games was also bad. Those aspects are worse than it being the less powerful console.
In terms of the public at large, MS should have taken a hit on Kinect and swallowed the cost. The confused messaging around the always online and buying/selling used games was also bad. Those aspects are worse than it being the less powerful console.
The PS2 was considered extremely hot tech. Emotion Engine etc, humongous R&D.
It just released in a *very* turbulent and maturing hardware age so that the original Xbox (which released almost two years after the PS2) could step in with 'off-the-shelves' parts that were from a new paradigm (programmable gpu shaders).
360 has a better GPU while Ps3 has a better processor.
publicpwnerer
Member
I'll have whatever you're drinking.
Not to shit on the Wii U, but that claim is just absurd.. If the Wii U outsells the XBO / PS4, I'll literally call my firstborn Satoru
No they can't.
No way. Hardware is no where near that important. As someone else brought up, the Xbox One pre-orders were low before news came out about the difference in resolutions with some of the launch multiplats. People didn't want to put up with the confusing policies.
No, they sourced Ars Technica, who recently published an article estimating the sales gap.
They estimated the ceiling of Xbox One sales, meaning the most optimistic, best-case sales.
They estimated the floor of PS4 sales, meaning the most pessimistic, worst-case sales.
This put PS4 at a minimum 40% more sales, in reality the worldwide sales gap is much closer to 100% than 40%.
Hardware site says main reason xbox one is losing is hardware.
News at eleven.
Personally I think the real main reason is that Sony worked hard near the end of the last generation to create a positive Playstation vibe. Strong exclusives, artsy games, free games everywhere, cool commercials. Meanwhile, Microsoft didn't give a shit and actively milched their users. Ads, ads, here's more basic functionality behind a paywall, and some additional ads. The conferences just confirmed what everybody was already feeling. Playstation: good. Xbox: bad.
News at eleven.
Personally I think the real main reason is that Sony worked hard near the end of the last generation to create a positive Playstation vibe. Strong exclusives, artsy games, free games everywhere, cool commercials. Meanwhile, Microsoft didn't give a shit and actively milched their users. Ads, ads, here's more basic functionality behind a paywall, and some additional ads. The conferences just confirmed what everybody was already feeling. Playstation: good. Xbox: bad.
100% agree.
Agreed. Most people on social netweorks were talking about the anti consumer stance and only a hardcore part about power differences. The race would have been much closer if Microsoft had a clear communication pro consumer and a focus on games. I just hope the learned their lesson. I was 8 years with 360 because it was modern, user friendly and focused on games (at leat in it's first 4 years).
D.Lo
Member
Yeah Microsoft would never have done that exact same thing before.
CitizenCope
Member
This was my reason to go from a decade of XBox over to Sony but I'm not sure it's the main reason for falling behind its biggest competitor.
Isn't that Call of Duty Ghosts?How are you going to exhibit differences in resolution when you don't even provide them in full resolution.
And no, I don't really agree with their reasoning the blame lies solely on the power differential.
You remember that, when Ghosts first launched on PS4, the campaign only ran at 720p like on Xbox One, right? Some sites made comparisons between the two with people noting that it looked identical. It was entirely due to this fault. Once patched, however, the PS4 version is 1080p across the board.
Black Mantis
Member
Different story altogether, I suggest you actually read about why the og Xbox was killed off, rather than lazily throwing it out as a comparison.
For me it was the TV TV TV message.
I used my 360 A LOT. Loved Halo, Gears, Fable, etc. Couldn't wait for the big revel and almost cried when it was over. I was sure I'd get an X1 even before it was officially announced, but i really felt they'd abandoned the gamer. Later down the line, when they came out with the 24 hr connection, DRM etc, I knew there was no way back. I wanted a new console in the launch window and in my opinion there was only 1 sensible choice.
I used my 360 A LOT. Loved Halo, Gears, Fable, etc. Couldn't wait for the big revel and almost cried when it was over. I was sure I'd get an X1 even before it was officially announced, but i really felt they'd abandoned the gamer. Later down the line, when they came out with the 24 hr connection, DRM etc, I knew there was no way back. I wanted a new console in the launch window and in my opinion there was only 1 sensible choice.
joey_bone_bomb
Member
100% on point!
disagree. The APU is a common approach that both Sony and MS have taken. Both have APUs about as big as you can get without completely screwing yields (I think MS's is actually a little larger than Sony's?)
So the limitations technically stem from the choice to go with DDR3, resulting in the need for embedded ram to help keep the GPU fed, resulting in less space on the APU for the actual GPU.
Kinect was responsible for it being $499 though, which was a factor in it performing less well.
And then the whole DRM-gate followed by every Xbox spokesperson putting their foot in it and digging the hole even deeper.
a triple-whammy that they are still trying to recover from
Arguably the price/DRM are the two biggest factors. The lower performance probably doesn't have the same impact. However, the performance may have affected people when considered in conjunction with the price. $100 more than the PS4 *and* less power is a very bad combination. $100 more and the same power? Hmm maybe thats acceptable to more people, especially with kinect included to add some perceived value.
Blue Ninja
Member
't was DRM killed the beast.
There's no way around it. The general public doesn't know the console's weaker, they've been scared by all the DRM and always online-talk when the console was first announced. MS basically shot themselves in the foot the day they announced the damn thing, they must've had alarms on at MS HQ for weeks.
People are only really slowly coming 'round, and at this point I'd argue it's too late. A lot of people have PS4's already, so more people will be inclined to buy that because their friends are on the platform already. The best the Xbone can do is hope to catch up.
There's no way around it. The general public doesn't know the console's weaker, they've been scared by all the DRM and always online-talk when the console was first announced. MS basically shot themselves in the foot the day they announced the damn thing, they must've had alarms on at MS HQ for weeks.
People are only really slowly coming 'round, and at this point I'd argue it's too late. A lot of people have PS4's already, so more people will be inclined to buy that because their friends are on the platform already. The best the Xbone can do is hope to catch up.
To me it was the reveal and E3 that sealed their doom. The rest is a domino effect. At the reveal it was too much talk about T.V. The DRM turned people off, and.turned them off badly. The fact that kinect was mandatory. Then at e3, the lower price of the PlayStation 4 , along with the statement that ps4 would not support DRM sealed the deal.
Later, the resolution talk came. The perception at that time was the ps4 would be cheaper, more powerful, not require a camera, and not have DRM.
More of your friends were buying ps4, thus the domino effect. This is why ps4 will lead the majority of this generation until perhaps the end when xbox will catch up. Much how like it took years for the ps3, to finally catch io to the Xbox 360
Later, the resolution talk came. The perception at that time was the ps4 would be cheaper, more powerful, not require a camera, and not have DRM.
More of your friends were buying ps4, thus the domino effect. This is why ps4 will lead the majority of this generation until perhaps the end when xbox will catch up. Much how like it took years for the ps3, to finally catch io to the Xbox 360
prag16
Banned
I doubt it. Maybe it seems that way in our hard core little bubble here, but this didn't help the GCN or Xbox vanquish the PS2 (yes circumstances were different, but..).
Most people pay very little attention to this stuff from what I've seen.
TheRagnCajun
Member
I feel that is not the main reason. If the situation was reversed, I don't think xbone would be selling more than PS4.
I think it has more to do with MS's poor reveal, and subsequent change of direction. Yes they fixed their mistakes, but it happened too late and consumers don't really care to educate themselves and reconsider which platform to buy. I actually have a theory that most consumers make up their mind very early in the life cycle, even though they may not buy until years later.
I think it has more to do with MS's poor reveal, and subsequent change of direction. Yes they fixed their mistakes, but it happened too late and consumers don't really care to educate themselves and reconsider which platform to buy. I actually have a theory that most consumers make up their mind very early in the life cycle, even though they may not buy until years later.