Support NeoGAF

[GrayFoxPL]

Wow this is ridiculous.

But if it's Tag2 then I'm not that surprised they messed up something with the models. Used an weird universal mold pumped or slimed.

They messed up some males too.
Like proportions of Jin's legs to torso. He looks ok in his default pants but once you switch them to something else, his torso suddenly looks huge and legs small. He looks fucked up since Tag2 lol and I see in T7 it's a similar problem.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

Okay sure, you mentioned 3 flavors, how about making the female cast get 3 flavors too rather than the same one?

Yeah, why not? It -does- already have two flavors. Lucky Chloe and Kazumi are definitely not in the same age bracket.

He's clearly saying Namco has gone into the deep end into this one niche of a cast of character blatantly catering only to otaku's. He also mentions he doesn't have a problem with them in isolation, just when they take over.

Now explain to me how you go from that to 'the ones that are there are bad and intolerable'? How, in a roster where you have two Jins and a handful of Mishima's and lots of generic dudes who resemble eachother, the presence of three/four schoolgirls or so who are pretty damn different is 'Namco catering only to otaku's '. Please.

Why do you need to badmouth what's there in the name of variety? Asking for design B instead of design A is NOT asking for variety.

I don't understand why size of roster exempts the females from having more variation? Look at Virtua Fighter, Vanessa has an extremely obvious different body type compared to Sarah who's actually massive height wise towering over so many of the male cast. Pai, Aoi, and Eileen I can agree have the typical supermodel body type, but it's still a far better improvement over Tekken right now.

Really? When the roster is larger there's more room for outliers that would not be received well by many people. Like sumo wrestlers. Doesn't seem so hard to understand to me.

Yep, VF does a good job. Would be cool if Tekken did too. Too bad about the Vanessa whitewashing. Would be good if Tekken can avoid a similar situation but it's starting to look grim. Not sure what VF has to do with it though. If anything that game caters at least as much toward otaku with the costumes and stuff.

Obviously? Really? Take anyone and present this to them:

Could you stop using the swimsuit models when it's known that those may be changed from what they normally look like? Leo being the most obvious giveaway.

Even when wearing the same, these characters do not have the same proportions. Lili's hips are wider, her legs longer and a bit broader. Smaller boobs too. Her torso is shorter, proportionally.

Josie has a much smaller head than other characters and a longer neck and longer limbs etc.

Use their normal outfits next time if you want to prove your point.

Go and present this to anyone:

and ask if the girls are so much more similar to eachother than the guys we should be up in arms about how Namco jumped the shark design-wise.

Here's how your and Sayad's posts read like: 'I don't hate the schoolgirl characters, so don't read this the wrong way, but those schoolgirl characters are bad and awful and Namco sure is catering only to otaku when less than five characters in this roster of thirty are catering to that demographic. I can stomach maybe one character like that but jeez. '

Nonsense.

 

[AAK]

Yeah, why not? It -does- already have two flavors. Lucky Chloe and Kazumi are definitely not in the same age bracket.

They have different ages, but have completely identical body type. If Kazumi is supposed to be so much older where are her wrinkles or imperfections the same way characters like Sebastian or Wang exhibit (no need to go that far) but you get the point. I'm gonna go back to Teppuu since that's something you recognize. Even if Kazumi is supposed to represent an older age group, why couldn't they have tried something like Kontani who's maybe that same age group as Kazumi. If they so adamantly wanted Kazumi to have that super-model aspect then why not at least make her look like Honma Mitsuki,? At least that would make her somewhat different from LC who's the exact same body type as the previous images I've linked.

Now explain to me how you go from that to 'the ones that are there are bad and intolerable'? How, in a roster where you have two Jins and a handful of Mishima's and lots of generic dudes who resemble eachother, the presence of three/four schoolgirls or so who are pretty damn different is 'Namco catering only to otaku's '. Please.

Why do you need to badmouth what's there in the name of variety? Asking for design B instead of design A is NOT asking for variety.

When we comment on LC it's because we're giving our honest opinion about the design, that's all. But when we say "make design B instead of design A" we say that because design A is already prevelent in everyone else of the cast. Is it so hard to calm down with overdoing this otaku-pandering design and have at least one or two of these other designs that interest us? Yes, that is asking for more variety. If a game has design A and design B, it has more variety than a game that only has design A.

Really? When the roster is larger there's more room for outliers that would not be received well by many people. Like sumo wrestlers. Doesn't seem so hard to understand to me.

You still haven't answered the question. Yes that's obvious that with a greater selection size the probability of having an outlier increases... but that's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, when you make a videogame, even if your selection size is small, why do you ignore all the other styles available to you? Let's say the reverse happened in Tekken where the girls outnumbered the guys, and there were only 6-7 male fighters in a game with 20 women. If all the males had the same body type, then that would be stupid too. There should be variety in there as well. So let me ask you again, just because there are fewer girls in Tekken than males, why can't one of them be different and more mature?

Yep, VF does a good job. Would be cool if Tekken did too. Too bad about the Vanessa whitewashing. Would be good if Tekken can avoid a similar situation but it's starting to look grim. Not sure what VF has to do with it though. If anything that game caters at least as much toward otaku with the costumes and stuff.

I'm mentioning VF because you're using the fact that there are fewer females then males in Tekken to justify the homogeneous body types of the female cast. VF is another game where the male cast outnumbers the female cast, and yet still they made an effort to differentiate their body types. And even after Sega white-washed Vanessa in VF5, her model was still extremely unique compared to everyone else. And I don't know why you're bringing up customizations when that has no bearing at all on what the body type, age, and demeanor the character represents. I don't care what someone customizes their character into whatever troll amalgamation their mind comes up with. What we're discussing here is Namco's intolerance towards anything female that isn't otaku pandering.

Could you stop using the swimsuit models when it's known that those may be changed from what they normally look like? Leo being the most obvious giveaway.

Even when wearing the same, these characters do not have the same proportions. Lili's hips are wider, her legs longer and a bit broader. Smaller boobs too. Her torso is shorter, proportionally.

Josie has a much smaller head than other characters and a longer neck and longer limbs etc.

Use their normal outfits next time if you want to prove your point.

What you're saying right now is completely obtuse. We're right now having a discussion about a body type and structure... and your argument is that if you cover up their body so they can't see a good portion of what we're trying to compare is a better evaluation?

I specifically chose those images because everything is clearly visible and can be scrutinized the most easily. The image you post is a blurry image of the two characters we're trying to compare in a different stance, wearing different outfits (that make it impossible to properly gauge measurements), from different angles. And you think your image is a better metric to determine the contrast between the two body types? The image I post is from the exact same costume, in the exact same sequence, in the exact same pose, in the exact same angle.... and you're claiming that's the incorrect way to prove my point about how their body types are identical?

Go and present this to anyone:

and ask if the girls are so much more similar to eachother than the guys we should be up in arms about how Namco jumped the shark design-wise.

You know what, sure, if Tekken only had pretty-boy husbando's like Hwoarang and Jin, I'd be up in arms too at Namco about that. But that isn't the reality and it's only true for the female cast.

Here's how your and Sayad's posts read like: 'I don't hate the schoolgirl characters, so don't read this the wrong way, but those schoolgirl characters are bad and awful and Namco sure is catering only to otaku when less than five characters in this roster of thirty are catering to that demographic. I can stomach maybe one character like that but jeez. '

Nonsense.

No, what we're saying is: you have all these female characters in the game, NOT ONE of them showcasing a realistic MMA styled practitioner that's female or a woman that's elderly. We're tired of the same stereotype and we don't like it. Give at least one character that connects with us. Namco just keeps going and repeatedly making the same archetype of female characters and instead of them, why not an elderly muscular type?

 

[SquirrelSoup]

What you're saying right now is completely obtuse. We're right now having a discussion about a body type and structure... and your argument is that if you cover up their body so they can't see a good portion of what we're trying to compare is a better evaluation?

No, that's not it at all. I'm saying the bikini models may have changed proportions to cut costs or whatever. Leo being the most obvious example since she suddenly has boobs. They may be different models to the normal ones. As Grayfox says above.

So compare the normal models instead. I'm sure seeing differences in proportions in those.

And no, we're NOT having a discussion about 'body type and structure'. Even -if- those would be relatively homogenous among the cast (And I don't think they are), you're defending that the characters as a whole in the female side of the cast are all way too much the same. All the same body type may be an indicator of that but it is not sufficient proof. The whole male cast is pretty damn ripped, does that make them all the same? Evidently not, because it has been argued that side has great variety.

You still haven't answered the question. Yes that's obvious that with a greater selection size the probability of having an outlier increases... but that's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, when you make a videogame, even if your selection size is small, why do you ignore all the other styles available to you? Let's say the reverse happened in Tekken where the girls outnumbered the guys, and there were only 6-7 male fighters in a game with 20 women. If all the males had the same body type, then that would be stupid too. There should be variety in there as well. So let me ask you again, just because there are fewer girls in Tekken than males, why can't one of them be different and more mature?

It's not a 'probability', it's a choice. If Tekken had only five male characters, there wouldn't be any Ganryu because that design only appeals to a small group of people. If there were only five male characters, there might not be an 'old man' character either. You'd get 'youngish' guys and 'definitely mature' guys.

So my answer is, Tekken -has- different age groups and character stereotypes for the women right now. Xiaoyu and LC are young, Katarina and Kazumi are mature for one. They're NOT all the same.

Representation could be better, i fully agree. I -want- to see more muscled and more rangy women in there for sure. But you guys are conflating two issues:
1. Not enough badass/older/more muscular female characters,
2. Too many schoolgirl characters, Namco is catering only to otaku, they are all the same, (with an attached value judgement that these designs are bad)

1. i agree with,
2. i don't agree with AT ALL,

*because there aren't that many, definitely not compared to certain other overrepresented groups in the cast,

*because they are -not- all the same, definitely not compared to the similarity found in other groups in the cast, and definitely definitely not if you start including Katarina and Kazumi and Josie with Xiaoyu, LC and Lili. How the hell is, say, Kazumi or Katarina the same character stereotype as Xiaoyu? How is Kazumi 'super-ultra-kawaii under-20 schoolgirl population'? Please explain it to me if you can, because i can't for the life of me see it at all.

*because i think the female designs are pretty good in general, and someone calling those designs OBJECTIVELY bad had better bring some pretty damn strong arguments above 'I don't like them.' (But it's okay to just not like them, too. I can't stop you =P )

No, what we're saying is: you have all these female characters in the game, NOT ONE of them showcasing a realistic MMA styled practitioner that's female or a woman that's elderly. We're tired of the same stereotype and we don't like it. Give at least one character that connects with us. Namco just keeps going and repeatedly making the same archetype of female characters and instead of them, why not an elderly muscular type?

Sweet, so say 'I want a realistic MMA styled practitioner that's female or a woman that's elderly. More variety would be good.' Because that, anyone can get behind. I could! Why are you taking a dump on what is in there? If it was just that you don't like what's there now, that's cool.

 

[AAK]

No, that's not it at all. I'm saying the bikini models may have changed proportions to cut costs or whatever. Leo being the most obvious example since she suddenly has boobs. They may be different models to the normal ones. As Grayfox says above.

So compare the normal models instead. I'm sure seeing differences in proportions in those.

You have no proof of this (Except for Leo because Leo doesn't have any custom items that show her abdomen). This makes no sense from a developer perspective either. Why would you go out and pay the 3D modelers/artists to create a brand new upper body for every customizable outfit rather than just model the individual item over a base body from the very beginning. And besides, that same bikini that I'm showcasing in those images is a copy of the final bikini custom unlock in Soul Calibur V so again, it doesn't make sense they made a brand new full swimsuit body model and pasted that on all the women for the custom rather than just re-using that specific bikini fabric model from SC and placing it on the existing model already.

And no, we're NOT having a discussion about 'body type and structure'. Even -if- those would be relatively homogenous among the cast (And I don't think they are), you're defending that the characters as a whole in the female side of the cast are all way too much the same. All the same body type may be an indicator of that but it is not sufficient proof. The whole male cast is pretty damn ripped, does that make them all the same? Evidently not, because it has been argued that side has great variety.

The whole male cast is ripped indeed, but they're still all unique. You can paste a picture of Steve, Kazuya, Marduk, King, Miguel, Jinpachi, Bob, Wang, and Dragunov's upper bodies without the faces and you can instantly tell the difference between all of them because they are all unique body types. Sure there maybe some that are too similar like Steve-SlimBob or Paul-Jin but the point still remains the male characters have a set of distinct body types that differentiate themselves from other sets. The same can't be said about the female cast.

It's not a 'probability', it's a choice. If Tekken had only five male characters, there wouldn't be any Ganryu because that design only appeals to a small group of people. If there were only five male characters, there might not be an 'old man' character either. You'd get 'youngish' guys and 'definitely mature' guys.

You chose the biggest outlier with a character like Ganryu. But even among a male cast of only 5 characters you'd still at least get one character that's unique like a Big (King/Marduk/Miguel/Jinpachi) or some other gimmick (Bob/Jack). What about the women being all super models? It's still unacceptable.

So my answer is, Tekken -has- different age groups and character stereotypes for the women right now. Xiaoyu and LC are young, Katarina and Kazumi are mature for one. They're NOT all the same.

What is the difference in Katarina/Kazumi' body compared to LC/Lili/Asuka/other high-schoolers? What defining features do they have that differentiates them? Only thing I can think of is skin color and height... and the swimsuit models confirm this. And looking specifically @ the high school girls, taking Teppu's example again, Ishidou was the super-model stereotype high schooler of that series and had a body like this:

Why can't any one of the LC/Lili/Asuka style characters embody this? At the very least Josie since she's also a part kick-boxer that's heavily prevalent in MMA.

Representation could be better, i fully agree. I -want- to see more muscled and more rangy women in there for sure. But you guys are conflating two issues:
1. Not enough badass/older/more muscular female characters,
2. Too many schoolgirl characters, Namco is catering only to otaku, they are all the same, (with an attached value judgement that these designs are bad)

1. i agree with,
2. i don't agree with AT ALL,

*because there aren't that many, definitely not compared to certain other overrepresented groups in the cast,

*because they are -not- all the same, definitely not compared to the similarity found in other groups in the cast, and definitely definitely not if you start including Katarina and Kazumi and Josie with Xiaoyu, LC and Lili. How the hell is, say, Kazumi or Katarina the same character stereotype as Xiaoyu? How is Kazumi 'super-ultra-kawaii under-20 schoolgirl population'? Please explain it to me if you can, because i can't for the life of me see it at all.

These aren't conflicting issues at all. The first issue is a result of the second issue. Tekken has had 20 playable female characters since it's inception. There are 33 playable male characters (the rest are either troll monsters & non-humanoids so ignoring them). Is it THAT big of a discrepency to defend the lack of variation in female designs? Is 20 vs 33 count as over-representation? Among those 33 male characters we've had 2 overweight guys (Bob/Ganryu), 3 very old guys (Sebastian, Wang, Jinpachi), 6 big guys (King, Armor King, Marduk, Miguel, Jack, Gigas), and for the sake of argument, let's pair every other male character into that "handsome/ripped/pretty-boy" common stereotype. That's 1 in every 3 male characters that were given an opportunity to break the mold of that stereotype. How many of the 20 female characters were given that same treatment? Which female character isn't a super-model figured petite lady? I can give you Nina/Christie because of their massive shoulders maybe... but i'm pretty sure that was more of a modeling mistake. Neither of them have the abs or leg muscles to complement that.

And about the question about the difference between Kazumi and Xiaoyu.... Kazumi's body looks nothing like someone who's supposed to be Jin's grandmother. Even Jun has a more mature look... Again looking at their base bodies, they are exactly the same. I acknowledge that character wise and costume wise they're different... but that's not at all the argument I'm having here. The argument here is about having more diverse female body types since the beginning of my post here.

*because i think the female designs are pretty good in general, and someone calling those designs OBJECTIVELY bad had better bring some pretty damn strong arguments above 'I don't like them.' (But it's okay to just not like them, too. I can't stop you =P )

Sweet, so say 'I want a realistic MMA styled practitioner that's female or a woman that's elderly. More variety would be good.' Because that, anyone can get behind. I could! Why are you taking a dump on what is in there? If it was just that you don't like what's there now, that's cool.

I still and always will say LC is a putrid design. In a game that celebrates martial arts, her existence simply makes a mockery of it. And seeing her act like a real life troll owning people like King by smacking him with a mitten makes the game look like trash. In a game with plenty of other anime tropes like Alisa we could have used something mature, elderly, and with a toned body that represents women in martial arts today. Something like that would maintain the tradition of Tekken celebrating martial arts like it used to.

 

[Numb]

Girls in Tekken are what has been shown already. Age makes very little difference when they all have the same body. In a way Kazumi has a less older looking bod y than Ling. No change will happen in such a case. Girls in fighting games have this issue way more than the guys.
Need some big girls. Buff,short,tall,wide etc etc

 

[Gambit61]

Wow, I always thought all the female models in TTT2 looked way too cloney/similar and it looks like I was right. Wish they'd change it up, even though the only female I play is Leo. The last 3D fighter I remember playing with actual different body types was probably Bloody Roar lol. You could play as a buffer older woman in that one, Mitsuko the Boar

 

[Dereck]

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/mary-ivonskaya.html

 

[Numb]

Harada has different videogame girls on his mind for now to spice Tekken girls up

 

[SquirrelSoup]

You have no proof of this (Except for Leo because Leo doesn't have any custom items that show her abdomen).

No. Except that their proportions in their normal models look different to me and they do not in those bikini models you posted. YMMV, and i guess it does.

This makes no sense from a developer perspective either. <stuff>

And you have no proof for any of this. Not much to discuss then. I straight up don't believe you if you're going to claim 'The normal outfits are just the bikini models with a clothes layer on top and no other fine adjustments.' though. Would want to see proof.

---
You have been defending this:

3. Super ULTRA KAWAII!!!!! approach and bad designs/concepts for some new characters. It was 100% fine when it was just Xiaoyu. It was okay when they introduced Lili and Asuka. It became hardly tolerable when we got Alisa. And now they went overboard and brought over Josie and Chloe to make this a complete nuisance. I would have nothing against these characters if they all didn't fall under the same under-20 year old population that loves to have cute little drama going on (Asuka/Lili storyline, Xiaoyu/Alisa storyline, who knows what Josie/Chloe storyline).

Even going so far as to add to it, saying ALL female characters (first in T7, now i guess expanding it to all in Tekken's history) are the same objectively bad stereotype. For some reason you're now only focusing on i guess their midriff for some reason. That's not what defines them as a character, or makes them a stereotype, or is that relevant to the discussion at all in my view. If you want to move goalposts so much that what you're defending is 'All these character have a vaguely similar build but with all the same abs so they're all the same stereotype!' Yeah uh. I don't have much of answer to that. They don't look the same to me, overall proportions wise. Sounds like a dumb argument to make too. Not so interested in discussing it. Sorry.

And as you say, the males are all built in a single direction too. All ripped. Maybe you can tell all them apart when just showing their torsos but i sure as hell can't.

So besides that, how is Kazumi, or Katarina, or i guess Nina since we're including the complete set now i suppose, AS A WHOLE CHARACTER part of the under 20 year old schoolgirl population that loves to have cute little drama going on? You know, that supposedly abhorrent otaku-pandering stereotype we were talking about.

 

[Sayah]

I simply don't agree at all that the current female part of the roster is as homogenous as you claim, or that the male part of it is as diverse. You lump Lili and Asuka and Xiaoyu and Alisa together because of.. i dunno, you laser focus on some kinda generic personality traits like the whole cast has which apparently makes them all the same or whatever. While i don't feel they're similar. Lili is nothing like Xiaoyu. Xiaoyu is nothing like Alisa.

Meanwhile the generic 20-something-years-old <insert national martial art> dudes and the Mishima's keep piling up but that's okay i guess.

But honestly i have more of a problem with you going "This is (objectively) BAD and INTOLERABLE and AN ANNOYING TREND." when what you really mean is just "I don't like these characters they're adding. I want more of those other characters. "

And that's a fine opinion. I don't like Gigas or Jack much myself. I'll never play them. Would rather see some other kinds of characters. But i'm happy for people that like big body characters, that there's someone for them to play. If the roster was 39 Jacks i'd duck out, yeah. You should duck out when it's 39 schoolgirls. It's not though. Not even close.

I'm not saying their personalities align identically 100% of the way. But I am saying that they all do have many similarities that make the female roster homogeneous. This includes age, demeanor, body type, etc.

AAK comments on this nicely below.

You know what, sure, if Tekken only had pretty-boy husbando's like Hwoarang and Jin, I'd be up in arms too at Namco about that. But that isn't the reality and it's only true for the female cast.

Not all the guys in the roster are pretty boys. But the girls definitely are.

Tekken in a way is part of pop culture and just like (for example) the fashion industry only seems to accept anorexic females and only sees that as the acceptable body type, Tekken is similarly reflecting ideal body types onto females by ONLY having/or mostly prioritizing young, lean females in its roster. How are we representing females of different body types and being inclusive of those females? Often people pick characters in fighting games that best represent them. Again, how are we being inclusive?

How is Kazumi 'super-ultra-kawaii under-20 schoolgirl population'? Please explain it to me if you can, because i can't for the life of me see it at all.

Dawg, I didn't even list Kazumi when I posted my bullet about "super ultra kawaii." I said the majority chunk of the female cast is under this archtype, not the entirety of it. Read my post.

[/B] Super ULTRA KAWAII!!!!! approach and bad designs/concepts for some new characters. It was 100% fine when it was just Xiaoyu. It was okay when they introduced Lili and Asuka. It became hardly tolerable when we got Alisa. And now they went overboard and brought over Josie and Chloe to make this a complete nuisance.

Sayah's claim about the females being homogenous is very accurate:


Exact same body type, proportions, hip size, muscle tone, bone structure, everything. Tekken really isn't any different from DOA at this point in that regard. That's a HUUUUGE discrepency compared to the male cast where you can have guys with a small build like Wang to hulking masses like Marduk/King/Miguel all the way to fatter guys like Ganryu mixed with a range of standard sizes from the skinnier style of Hwoarang/Law to the more beefy Jin/Pau.l Women can also come in a huge variety of sizes.

No one is trying to take away your waifu's. But what about the other various figures women can embody? One of the best female wrestlers was Awesome Kong, and this was her body type:



And how about the age? Your post talks about the Mishima's like Kazuya who is in his 50's along with other characters like Paul and Marshall Law in that same age group, what about women too? Here's a woman in her mid-30's who's still active in the MMA circuit:

And even if you only wanted lolita-faced super-model perfect skinned petite females, what's wrong with having some with a defined muscle tone? This is a fighting game after all:

The representation of Women in this series definitely leaves a lot to be desired and Sayah is very justified IMO for bringing it up. You even named Teppu in a post earlier commending it, but Tekken's delivery is a massive far cry from Teppu where the woman have a huge range of body types, heights, age, muscle mass. Something Tekken is failing at miserably.

A+++ post.

This is exactly what I mean when I'm requesting "old" or "fat" females. What I'm really asking for is diversity and to give representation to other female body types instead of messaging a single slim body type of characters that just crossed their status as pre-pubescent teens not too long ago.

Amazing Kong is a good example of that.
Even in wrestling, you had old female wrestlers like Mae Young getting dudley slammed through a table.

 

[Sayah]

Please look at the characters I'm talking about. I'm not talking about all of the Tekken females.

"Majority chunk; not entirety."

3. Super ULTRA KAWAII!!!!! approach and bad designs/concepts for some new characters. It was 100% fine when it was just Xiaoyu. It was okay when they introduced Lili and Asuka. It became hardly tolerable when we got Alisa. And now they went overboard and brought over Josie and Chloe to make this a complete nuisance. I would have nothing against these characters if they all didn't fall under the same under-20 year old population that loves to have cute little drama going on (Asuka/Lili storyline, Xiaoyu/Alisa storyline, who knows what Josie/Chloe storyline).

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/mary-ivonskaya.html

You also have characters like Mama Tua in Ready 2 Rumble boxing.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

I'm not saying their personalities align identically 100% of the way. But I am saying that they all do have many similarities that make the female roster homogeneous. This includes age, demeanor, body type, etc.

Not all the guys in the roster are pretty boys. But the girls definitely are.
...
Again, how are we being inclusive?

And i say there's 'decent' variety when compared to the male half. Calling them 'all the same' while calling the male side (which is bigger so has more room!) greatly varied is shortsighted and i don't agree with it.

You say you see great variety in the male side. Cool. I don't. Too many pretty boys, too many angry 30something dudes with similar clothes. Almost everyone is ripped. Yes, there are outliers.

You say you see barely any variety in the female side. Cool. I sure see some. I don't see how even Lili and Xiaoyu are so preposterously similar (over sets like Hwoarang and Jin) that one needs to make a big stink over it. And that's only part of the variety on offer. Katarina is more different in age and demeanor and body. So are others. Yes, there are less outliers. A smaller data set will do that. Yes, this is a shame.

Again,
1. Not enough badass/older/more muscular female characters,
2. Too many under 20 schoolgirl characters, Namco is catering only to otaku, those characters are all the same, (with an attached value judgement that these designs are bad)

NOT the same thing.

1. i agree with,
2. i don't agree with AT ALL,
Reasoning above.

Dawg, I didn't even list Kazumi when I posted my bullet about "super ultra kawaii." I said the majority chunk of the female cast is under this archtype, not the entirety of it. Read my post.

I know! AAK is the one pulling in the whole female cast of every Tekken ever! Even Nina's broad shoulders aren't enough! All the same stereotype apparently! Seems hard to defend from my viewpoint, but hey. That's why i'm calling it out.

(Also, i don't think it's a majority chunk =P Trust me, i read your post.)

 

[AAK]

No. Except that their proportions in their normal models look different to me and they do not in those bikini models you posted. YMMV, and i guess it does.



And you have no proof for any of this. Not much to discuss then. I straight up don't believe you if you're going to claim 'The normal outfits are just the bikini models with a clothes layer on top and no other fine adjustments.' though. Would want to see proof.

---

Okay, sure I guess I have no proof unless I can hear it directly from a developer but your assetion how Leo's model changing with her swimsuit breast-enlargement applies toward every female model having a separate swimsuit model is way more far-fetched than the simple fact that Namco has the same base model for all the female fighters.

Even going so far as to add to it, saying ALL female characters (first in T7, now i guess expanding it to all in Tekken's history) are the same objectively bad stereotype. For some reason you're now only focusing on i guess their midriff for some reason. That's not what defines them as a character, or makes them a stereotype, or is that relevant to the discussion at all in my view. If you want to move goalposts so much that what you're defending is 'All these character have a vaguely similar build but with all the same abs so they're all the same stereotype!' Yeah uh. I don't have much of answer to that. They don't look the same to me, overall proportions wise. Sounds like a dumb argument to make too. Not so interested in discussing it. Sorry.

And as you say, the males are all built in a single direction too. All ripped. Maybe you can tell all them apart when just showing their torsos but i sure as hell can't.

So besides that, how is Kazumi, or Katarina, or i guess Nina since we're including the complete set now i suppose, AS A WHOLE CHARACTER part of the under 20 year old schoolgirl population that loves to have cute little drama going on? You know, that supposedly abhorrent otaku-pandering stereotype we were talking about.

You might take it as looking at abs, but there are so much more that goes into it like the muscle mass on the forearms/biceps/legs/back, The thickness of the limbs, the size proprtion of upper body vs lower body. It's those details which make it so easy to identify the male cast's unique attributes while the female cast is painted with the same brush.

And yes, you keep focusing on the lore behind Xiaoyu being a schoolgirl to make the comparison between her and Kazumi/Katarina when it's still obvious they're designing these female characters to pander to the same crowd. Yes, it's true the story plays a part in how a character is defined, but their aesthetic design and how it's represented in the flesh plays a huge part as well. Each female design is pretty much designed like your usual female fan-service character in the usual shonen anime. Another trope to cater to where they look nothing like a martial artist which is what we are all desiring.

 

[Sayah]

And i say there's 'decent' variety when compared to the male half. Calling them 'all the same' while calling the male side (which is bigger so has more room!) greatly varied is shortsighted and i don't agree with it.

You say you see great variety in the male side. Cool. I don't. Too many pretty boys, too many angry 30something dudes with similar clothes. Almost everyone is ripped. Yes, there are outliers.

You say you see barely any variety in the female side. Cool. I sure see some. I don't see how even Lili and Xiaoyu are so preposterously similar (over sets like Hwoarang and Jin) that one needs to make a big stink over it. And that's only part of the variety on offer. Katarina is more different in age and demeanor and body. So are others. Yes, there are less outliers. A smaller data set will do that. Yes, this is a shame.

Again,
1. Not enough badass/older/more muscular female characters,
2. Too many under 20 schoolgirl characters, Namco is catering only to otaku, those characters are all the same, (with an attached value judgement that these designs are bad)

NOT the same thing.

1. i agree with,
2. i don't agree with AT ALL,
Reasoning above.

I don't think you're completely understanding my perspective here.
#1: Male roster is not at all homogenous and features good diversity as far as age, body type, personality goes.

Let's go through this again:
This is the current female roster:

Lili
Asuka
Xiaoyu
Chloe
Josie
Alisa
Katarina
Leo
Kazumi

6 out of these 9 characters have many homogenous traits ranging from

1. Age (demonstrated): Alisa is the only one without an age because she's a robot but still behaves like a nine year old.

2. Body type (demonstrated): AAK's posts clearly demonstrate this.

3. Personality of a teenage child (demonstrated):
Lili/Asuka: corny schoolgirl rivalry
Alisa/Xiaoyu: (Watch Blood Vengeance/No comment needed)
Josie: Weeping girl
Chloe: pop star break dancer dressed in a cat costume.....not sure much else needs to be said here.

None of these characters are mature, and yet they're competing in a world class King of the Iron Fist tournament where the best of the best fighters come to compete to win prize money. It's fine to have a few of these type of characters (like how there is goofy Paul on the male side), but to have these characters become staples over Jun, Kunimitsu, Julia, Zafina, Christie, etc. is disappointing to say the least. We don't need more of these schoolgirl characters. We need less of them, which goes back to my comment on Namco's "super ultra kawaii" focus.


I've said this before. Even assuming Tekken males are super homogeneous as you're claiming (which they're not), how is that a defense for also having a homogeneous female roster?

 

[Sayah]

Sorry for my double post.
No hard feelings Squirrel, but I think even you know the real reason we are increasingly seeing more and more underage, sexualized girls in Japanese games. It's just sad to see Tekken adopting this trend.

We can agree to disagree otherwise.

Edit: Also, image to accompany this post.

 

[AZUMIKE]

Here are some ideas:

- Jabs and other weak moves shouldn't re-float the enemy so high during a juggle, the enemy should fall maintaining the momentum since the amount of force being applied really isn't that much.
- Power hitting moves should impact the opponent in the proper way their rigid body is oriented. If Paul does a ws+2 and then does a death fist as a follow up the juggle, the juggle animations should be drastically different compared to if he did a death first right after a d/f+2. In the first instance, the opponent is juggled FDFA (Face Down Feet Away) so a deathfist will impact the skull. The second instance off a d/f+2 the opponent is FAFT (Face Up Feet Towards) so a death fist will be hitting their leg. The new system should have build in properties on each area of the body (legs, body, hands, head) on how they should animate depending on where they're impacted in the juggle and what orientation they're in. This will lead to a very new juggle system that requires adaptation.

This is one reason why Tekken 7's juggles look so much uglier than Tekken 6 and TTT2's. The tail-spin animation is copy and pasted regardless if the oppnenent is facing towards or away from you. It looks so damn ugly when a tail spin connects on an opponent when they're juggled from backturned. It makes no sense from a rigid body perspective either and is something I'd expect only from a budget game... not Tekken.

- As for the movement, have distinct animations for multiple backdashes. And when I say animations, i'm definitely talking in the plural sense. The game should have specific animations depending on how well or poorly the individual is inputting their backdash cancels. And since the lateral sidestepping/sidewalking cancels don't exist anymore they don't have to worry about that. And I feel while maintaining the exact same system as it is, and just changing the way it's animated and presented, the functionality shouldn't change either as long as the presentation is the only thing tinkered with.

Again, the overall theme of the change is to make the game much more presentable again. Blow the public away with the presentation and aesthetics like Namco did with Tekken 3. Tekken 3 and Metal Gear Solid both came out in 1998. Both of the teams involved in those games expanded exponentially to the point they are in now. Look at how much the Metal Gear Solid developers went out of their way to change the presentation of the game with each iteration while maintaining the core essence of stealth... and compare that with Namco. Honestly when Tekken 7 was first announced and the whole big shabang with them starting over from scratch with Unreal Engine 4 my expectations were in that magnitude of evolution.... and you can take a guess at how crushing it must have been to see that reveal trailer.

Thx for your thoughts AAK. I think the movement animation definitely has room for improvement.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I think I'm against most ideas of changing up the game drastically at this juncture of the series. Tekken 7 imho conceptually is that difference. Whether or not Power Crush or Rage Arts are useful, its a visible change and feature among others. Tekken 7 is massively different from T6. More so than T6 was to T5 or even TTT1 to T5. I don't think people see how different this game is, it just looks similar but it definitely doesn't play like anything we've played before.

I honestly think the idea to change the game comes from the idea that TTT2 perfected Tekken(which is hilariously funny considering how variable heavy that game is compared to T6) and it isn't even a mainline Tekken. Its just a hodgepodge of TTT1 and T6. Just like like TTT1 was to T3. While T3-T6 were iterative, i honestly believe that T7 really has its own unique identity that's bogged down by its aesthetic.

I think people are really underestimating this game and its not even their fault which is sad.

 

[AAK]

Tekken 7 is massively different from T6. More so than T6 was to T5 or even TTT1 to T5. I don't think people see how different this game is, it just looks similar but it definitely doesn't play like anything we've played before.

Hooooowwww!!!??? Man I feel jealous sometimes LOL. If only I could come to that conclusion I would feel so much more at ease haha.

This game looks almost conceptually identical to Tekken Revolution... which in itself was just a rebalance of TTT2's solo mode. How the heck do you come to such a statement like T7 being a bigger jump than even TTT1 to T5!??? Do you realize how huge things like walls, crush mechanics, and the completely re-imagined/animated cast of characters had on Tekken 5? You may have had an argument with T5 -> T6 but with Tekken 6 cast members getting so many new toolsets within their moves complemented with system wide animation updates there was so much to adapt to but even then T5 still felt new enough for me to look past the lack of evolution.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Hooooowwww!!!??? Man I feel jealous sometimes LOL. If only I could come to that conclusion I would feel so much more at ease haha.

This game looks almost conceptually identical to Tekken Revolution... which in itself was just a rebalance of TTT2's solo mode. How the heck do you come to such a statement like T7 being a bigger jump than even TTT1 to T5!??? Do you realize how huge things like walls, crush mechanics, and the completely re-imagined/animated cast of characters had on Tekken 5? You may have had an argument with T5 -> T6 but with Tekken 6 cast members getting so many new toolsets within their moves complemented with system wide animation updates there was so much to adapt to.

There's your problem right there. For one it assumes that Revo's concept was bad in the first place, it wasn't. T7 expanded on it and in many ways improved on it(so I may just lump these together for future reference)

Most of the re-imagined cast was already done by TTT1. T4's Side Walk and Walls were its own thing. But basically I feel that TTT1 and T5 sans Walls and the crush system(and tag of course) were two very similar games.

And characters being tooled to work in the games system is something that's done every game..

To add on to that, I already said that the main problem is the way things are animated or presented to us.

 

[Manbig]

Sayah's claim about the females being homogenous is very accurate:



Exact same body type, proportions, hip size, muscle tone, bone structure, everything. Tekken really isn't any different from DOA at this point in that regard. That's a HUUUUGE discrepency compared to the male cast where you can have guys with a small build like Wang to hulking masses like Marduk/King/Miguel all the way to fatter guys like Ganryu mixed with a range of standard sizes from the skinnier style of Hwoarang/Law to the more beefy Jin/Pau.l Women can also come in a huge variety of sizes.

No one is trying to take away your waifu's. But what about the other various figures women can embody? One of the best female wrestlers was Awesome Kong, and this was her body type:



And how about the age? Your post talks about the Mishima's like Kazuya who is in his 50's along with other characters like Paul and Marshall Law in that same age group, what about women too? Here's a woman in her mid-30's who's still active in the MMA circuit:

And even if you only wanted lolita-faced super-model perfect skinned petite females, what's wrong with having some with a defined muscle tone? This is a fighting game after all:

The representation of Women in this series definitely leaves a lot to be desired and Sayah is very justified IMO for bringing it up. You even named Teppu in a post earlier commending it, but Tekken's delivery is a massive far cry from Teppu where the woman have a huge range of body types, heights, age, muscle mass. Something Tekken is failing at miserably.

Good post.

Awesome Kong is fucking amazing btw. Shame how her WWE run went down.

I'll also add Gabi Garcia, who is one of the best female BJJ competitors in the world. She's also 6'2. Just look at her next to freakin Wanderlei Silva...

 

[SquirrelSoup]

Each female design is pretty much designed like your usual female fan-service character in the usual shonen anime. Another trope to cater to where they look nothing like a martial artist which is what we are all desiring.

See, it's hyperbole like this i can't agree with. You have great points about there being a lack of diversity in the female cast. I agree with them!

But then for some reason you feel the need to skip fully ahead to badmouthing what's there and going 'Oh and also the whole female cast in the Tekken series is otaku-pandering garbage and they all look the same, which is nothing like a martial artist.'

With little to support it. Why foul the waters with such far-fetched stuff?

I don't think you're completely understanding my perspective here.
#1: Male roster is not at all homogenous and features good diversity as far as age, body type, personality goes.

Let's go through this again:
This is the current female roster:

Lili
Asuka
Xiaoyu
Chloe
Josie
Alisa
Katarina
Leo
Kazumi

6 out of these 9 characters have many homogenous traits ranging from

1. Age (demonstrated): Alisa is the only one without an age because she's a robot but still behaves like a nine year old.

2. Body type (demonstrated): AAK's posts clearly demonstrate this.

3. Personality of a teenage child (demonstrated):
Lili/Asuka: corny schoolgirl rivalry
Alisa/Xiaoyu: (Watch Blood Vengeance/No comment needed)
Josie: Weeping girl
Chloe: pop star break dancer dressed in a cat costume.....not sure much else needs to be said here.

I understand. My assertion is that you are (unreasonably) not seeing any variety in the female side of the cast because, perhaps because you care less for many of those characters. You're painting them with very, very broad strokes and then you say they're all the same. All the while -not- doing the same for the male side.

Let me make an equivalent broad strokes sort of claim, for reference: (One i don't ascribe to, but just to demonstrate)
1. Age between ~18-45, fully grown, still fit enough to fight
2. muscled build of a martial artist
3. personality of a determined fighter

Well, that's almost the whole male cast! They must all be the same! QED

I can see variety just fine in the female characters you mentioned.

Lili and Asuka are made to be -opposites-. Yes, they're the same age, but one is the standard snooty ojousama trope (very popular, a good pick~ ) and the other is a rough&tumble down to earth commoner. It shows in their mannerisms and and their fighting style. They are not the same character.

How can you call Alisa the same as either of them? She's a robot with chainsaws and thrusters and headbombs! Seriously? How is that 'just another schoolgirl #4'?

How can you call LC the same? If she was -just- another Lili, AAK wouldn't be spouting the bile he has over her. She's trolly in her win pose and fighting style, her design is divisive at best, and A LOT of people hate her guts (and some people like her because she's so hated). That's not the same as the other characters on your list, is it? According to many people she has the worst design in Tekken history or something. Alright. That's not just another schoolgirl either then.

Josie isn't 'just another schoolgirl #5' either, going by body type or outfit. I don't know what her age is. Her face looks young but her build with the smaller head and longer limbs seems more in line with the mature characters. Yes, the crying seems irritating and she sure cribbed Bruce's style. So? Those also make her -not the same- as the other characters.

Those are my views on it at least.

None of these characters are mature, and yet they're competing in a world class King of the Iron Fist tournament where the best of the best fighters come to compete to win prize money. It's fine to have a few of these type of characters (like how there is goofy Paul on the male side), but to have these characters become staples over Jun, Kunimitsu, Julia, Zafina, Christie, etc. is disappointing to say the least. We don't need more of these schoolgirl characters. We need less of them, which goes back to my comment on Namco's "super ultra kawaii" focus.

Right. I'm disappointed my preferences didn't make it in either, though they are probably different from yours. I'd like to see Jun, Zafina, Kunimitsu back, and i'd love to see characters such as AAK has been suggesting. Those are some swell suggestions!

But you (and AAK) are arguing from a false premise which i don't agree with, which is that there are tons of schoolgirl characters and that they are all the same, and that this is objectively a problem because Namco is doing nothing but pandering to otaku.

Nah. Nuh uh. =P

I've said this before. Even assuming Tekken males are super homogeneous as you're claiming (which they're not), how is that a defense for also having a homogeneous female roster?

It wouldn't be. And I'm not saying the male side is 'super homogenous'. I think it has 'okay' variety. And contrary to what your claims, i'm asserting the female side also has 'passable' variety, considering the size of it.

Claiming the female side of the roster, or even a large majority of it, is 'all the same schoolgirl design' is entirely false in my view.

And calling a large majority of the female roster objectively bad or intolerable just because they don't align with your preferences is unwarranted and unproductive. Just stating such aggressive opinions as facts is not that fun of a game to play, imo.

But we'd best leave the discussion at this and agree to disagree. We do all seem to want the same increase in diversity. I just don't agree with the hate crusade against the characters that are in there already.

No hard feelings Squirrel, but I think even you know the real reason we are increasingly seeing more and more underage, sexualized girls in Japanese games. It's just sad to see Tekken adopting this trend.

No hard feelings~

I'm going to dodge this loaded rhetoric question (which suddenly pulls in a whole other slew of issues i don't wish to discuss) and am going to read it as "Why are there so many young pretty female characters in many games, over the type of character i prefer?"

The answer is obvious. There are apparently more people that like that than those who want to see things in line with your preferences. Sure sucks. That doesn't make those people wrong somehow or the characters in question without value.

 

[Dereck]

I would really like to see Fighting GM play in a tournament where there is gonna be some competition for him. The last time I saw Fighting GM get challenged was earlier this year when Kodee beat him at Winter Brawl.

The pools aren't out yet so I don't know who is going. NYC Fab is a possibility and maybe Bloodhawk.

Oh, and if you don't have any idea what I'm talking about, I'm talking about Defend the North.

 

[Manbig]

I would really like to see Fighting GM play in a tournament where there is gonna be some competition for him. The last time I saw Fighting GM get challenged was earlier this year when Kodee beat him at Winter Brawl.

The pools aren't out yet so I don't know who is going. NYC Fab is a possibility and maybe Bloodhawk.

Oh, and if you don't have any idea what I'm talking about, I'm talking about Defend the North.

That's always been the case in regards to a lot of the majors GM has won. Not to say that he can't defeat the heavy hitters, because he certainly can and has done it several times, but a pretty big chunk of the majors that he has won were east coast ones outside of ATL, which means you won't see people like Anakin (for whatever reason, ATL scene doesn't really do much east coast traveling) and Naps going to them.

 

[sasuke_91]

Boutdown, I'm no longer on Wireless. We can try out the connection whenever you're Online.
Doomshine, we can also finally play again. Our connection was garbage these days.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

Boutdown, I'm no longer on Wireless. We can try out the connection whenever you're Online.
Doomshine, we can also finally play again. Our connection was garbage these days.

I'll play too. o/

Edit: Good games, Sasuke! You sure did some sick combos in that set.

 

[sasuke_91]

Good games Squirrel. Thanks
And don't listen to that idiot! You played great! I was an idiot for not blocking your low pokes at that distance

Oh, and sorry for disappearing suddenly. Whenever I think I have time for a last game I'm proven otherwise...

 

[GrayFoxPL]

It's funny but I think the broad shoulder thing doa fans were laughing about regarding to tekken, I think they (accidentally?) did right, because once girl takes seriously on sport or martial art or whatever the shoulders naturally broaden, even a little. It's obvious for guys, but it works that way for girls too.

The non model babe look in fg I only seen in Tobal, Bloody Roar 1 and Power Instinct.

For now I'd be happy if I see fighting game babes but with very sporty foundation, some muscles, some shoulders, hard belly.

Like Bianca Van Damme.

 

[sasuke_91]

I don't really mind the current female roster of T7. LC doesn't annoy me as much anymore and Josie... I don't really care about her. I do agree on the missing variety though and I'd love to see the kinds of characters you guys mentioned. Otaku-pandering or not, we don't have enough badass females!

Speaking of combos, I pulled this off the other day:

I don't really know why that Sonic Fang missed though.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

I don't really mind the current female roster of T7. LC doesn't annoy me as much anymore and Josie... I don't really care about her. I do agree on the missing variety though and I'd love to see the kinds of characters you guys mentioned. Otaku-pandering or not, we don't have enough badass females!

Speaking of combos, I pulled this off the other day:
http://i.imgur.com/VYmwFOz.gifv
I don't really know why that Sonic Fang missed though.

Oh shit, that was awesome. I'm so jelly for your Steve.

 

[Dereck]

Sasuke get back online.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

For some reason the German screen text is hilarious to me. 7 treffercombo indeed, ahaha.

 

[NinthPixel]

I could jump in the male vs female Tekken ring, but I thought I would share more constructive things instead.

Extra Credits: True Female Characters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1qndga6SNU

Extra Credits: Myers Briggs and Character Creation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKnNO5pxRGQ

 

[GrayFoxPL]

For some reason the German screen text is hilarious to me. 7 treffercombo indeed, ahaha.

Yeah I'm happy it didn't get polish translation. Would look comical.

 

[Fraeon]

Anyone wanna have a go against me?

EDIT: Gonna go to sleep but if you're interested, add Fraelynn on PSN. Especially if you're in the EU area.
EDIT2: Fuck, should've been earlier, I could've played against Sasuke too.

 

[Dereck]

That was cool Sasuke, lag held both of us back though.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

Wooh boy, that Bryan.

When you thought it can't get any worse.

 

[Creaking]

Wooh boy, that Bryan.

When you thought it can't get any worse.

You don't need alts! You've got customization!

And ew are those shorts stiff. Just came from the awesome cloth physics thread, and well, yeesh...

 

[Dereck]

We can get fish and icecream cones but we can't simply get Bryan's Tekken 4 jacket?

I mean, just the jacket.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

We can get fish and icecream cones but we can't simply get Bryan's Tekken 4 jacket?

I mean, just the jacket.

The amount of calculation needed to simulate T4 flowing jackets would brake UE4. Even Kaz's coat behaves much worse then it did in alpha build.

Shitty UE4 ;P.

 

[Creaking]

We can get fish and icecream cones but we can't simply get Bryan's Tekken 4 jacket?

I mean, just the jacket.

You mean something that the character might actually wear? Lol no!

 

[GrayFoxPL]

You mean something that the character might actually wear? Lol no!

T4 outfits made too much sense.

 

[sasuke_91]

Oh shit, that was awesome. I'm so jelly for your Steve.

Thank you

What I like about that combo(s) is that
1. We went from one wall to the other
2. Cloud had full HP, Steve with rage is so deadly
3. I had no idea what I was doing after the reset. That second half was totally random and seeing it work was so satisfying

For some reason the German screen text is hilarious to me. 7 treffercombo indeed, ahaha.

Yeah I'm happy it didn't get polish translation. Would look comical.

Haha I got used to this. I don't remember if T3 was German, but I know for sure that T4 and every game after that had full German translation. The only thing that bothers me is that they translated "Punish" as "Konter" and "Counter" as "Gegenangriff". That was so confusing.

Anyone wanna have a go against me?

EDIT: Gonna go to sleep but if you're interested, add Fraelynn on PSN. Especially if you're in the EU area.
EDIT2: Fuck, should've been earlier, I could've played against Sasuke too.

I would have liked to play against you again. It's been a while.

That was cool Sasuke, lag held both of us back though.

Yep. Good games. I don't remember how bad it was, but would you say that our connection is better now or is it the same? I thought it was "okay", lots of dropped combos and failed punishers, but still bearable.
And damn, I thought I improved over the last year, but you got scary as hell

Wooh boy, that Bryan.

When you thought it can't get any worse.

Sometimes I think that they just want to mock the viewers. I can't imagine anybody costumize a character like that and be like "Yep, looks really cool".

 

[MikeBreezy92]

That's always been the case in regards to a lot of the majors GM has won. Not to say that he can't defeat the heavy hitters, because he certainly can and has done it several times, but a pretty big chunk of the majors that he has won were east coast ones outside of ATL, which means you won't see people like Anakin (for whatever reason, ATL scene doesn't really do much east coast traveling) and Naps going to them.

Because a lot of ATL is just very busy with real life shit and only make tournaments that aren't that far.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

Thank you

What I like about that combo(s) is that
1. We went from one wall to the other
2. Cloud had full HP, Steve with rage is so deadly
3. I had no idea what I was doing after the reset. That second half was totally random and seeing it work was so satisfying

Yeah, you were feeling it. That's good gear to have.

I have this huge flaw that when sudden things happen that I haven't planned, I get totally confused. "What? It hit? What do I do?!" and I usually end up doing the worst things.

Sometimes opponent ruins my entire game plan by getting hit by things I planned for him to guard, lol.

 

[SquirrelSoup]

Fuuuuck, i dropped my pad and it broke.

Couple buttons aren't working anymore even after i opened it up and tried the contacts directly. D=

 

[GrayFoxPL]

Fuuuuck, i dropped my pad and it broke.

Couple buttons aren't working anymore even after i opened it up and tried the contacts directly. D=

Shit, that's bad.

Try putting it back until it works. Unless the circuit wasn't trashed it should work.

 

[Dereck]

Yep. Good games. I don't remember how bad it was, but would you say that our connection is better now or is it the same? I thought it was "okay", lots of dropped combos and failed punishers, but still bearable.
And damn, I thought I improved over the last year, but you got scary as hell

Thanks

 

[Sayah]

See, it's hyperbole like this i can't agree with. You have great points about there being a lack of diversity in the female cast. I agree with them!

But then for some reason you feel the need to skip fully ahead to badmouthing what's there and going 'Oh and also the whole female cast in the Tekken series is otaku-pandering garbage and they all look the same, which is nothing like a martial artist.'

With little to support it. Why foul the waters with such far-fetched stuff?

They do look the same though as far as body type goes so I don't know how that's fouling the waters?

I already said before I don't have a problem with these characters on an individual level. YOu can ask people I've played against here, I even use Ling, Alisa, and Lili sometimes.

You're kind of skipping over my point about homogeneity. You just agreed with me that there needs to be greater diversity (see bolded text above) and less homogeneity . That's exactly my point. Bring in greater diversity.

I understand. My assertion is that you are (unreasonably) not seeing any variety in the female side of the cast because, perhaps because you care less for many of those characters. You're painting them with very, very broad strokes and then you say they're all the same. All the while -not- doing the same for the male side.

Let me make an equivalent broad strokes sort of claim, for reference: (One i don't ascribe to, but just to demonstrate)
1. Age between ~18-45, fully grown, still fit enough to fight
2. muscled build of a martial artist
3. personality of a determined fighter

Well, that's almost the whole male cast! They must all be the same! QED

I can see variety just fine in the female characters you mentioned.

Lili and Asuka are made to be -opposites-. Yes, they're the same age, but one is the standard snooty ojousama trope (very popular, a good pick~ ) and the other is a rough&tumble down to earth commoner. It shows in their mannerisms and and their fighting style. They are not the same character.

How can you call Alisa the same as either of them? She's a robot with chainsaws and thrusters and headbombs! Seriously? How is that 'just another schoolgirl #4'?

How can you call LC the same? If she was -just- another Lili, AAK wouldn't be spouting the bile he has over her. She's trolly in her win pose and fighting style, her design is divisive at best, and A LOT of people hate her guts (and some people like her because she's so hated). That's not the same as the other characters on your list, is it? According to many people she has the worst design in Tekken history or something. Alright. That's not just another schoolgirl either then.

Josie isn't 'just another schoolgirl #5' either, going by body type or outfit. I don't know what her age is. Her face looks young but her build with the smaller head and longer limbs seems more in line with the mature characters. Yes, the crying seems irritating and she sure cribbed Bruce's style. So? Those also make her -not the same- as the other characters.

Those are my views on it at least.

Okay, let's back up on this. In the first quote above, you're saying I'm right in acknowledging a lack of diversity. And in this second quote you're saying I'm not doing a good job recognizing the variety. Check the bolded parts.

I'm not even labeling them as schoolgirls #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, etc. My descriptor was "behavior of a teenage child." And the descriptor you're trying to relate on the male side "personality of a determined fighter" is not very congruous to being a teenage child. Even if it was, at least it's a determined fighter in a fighting game, yes? My stroke isn't as broad as you're trying to paint it. Your sample example to compare the male side doesn't work at all. Even if it did, you would imagine all fighters are determined. They're entering a tournament after all. And I would rather have a fighting game full of determined fighters way way waaaaaaay over a fighting game full of characters behaving like teenagers going through hormonal changes.

Right. I'm disappointed my preferences didn't make it in either, though they are probably different from yours. I'd like to see Jun, Zafina, Kunimitsu back, and i'd love to see characters such as AAK has been suggesting. Those are some swell suggestions!

But you (and AAK) are arguing from a false premise which i don't agree with, which is that there are tons of schoolgirl characters and that they are all the same, and that this is objectively a problem because Namco is doing nothing but pandering to otaku.

Nah. Nuh uh. =P

They are the same in many respects and I listed those out. I've already said before that I KNOW they still have their own individual personalities and they don't align 100% of the way. But they do align 60% or 70% or 80% of the way in that they display behavior that is very reminiscent of certain teenage characteristics and immaturity at large. And then you also consider their age and their body types and you see greater and greater proof of homogeneity in the existing female roster.

It wouldn't be. And I'm not saying the male side is 'super homogenous'. I think it has 'okay' variety. And contrary to what your claims, i'm asserting the female side also has 'passable' variety, considering the size of it.

Claiming the female side of the roster, or even a large majority of it, is 'all the same schoolgirl design' is entirely false in my view.

And calling a large majority of the female roster objectively bad or intolerable just because they don't align with your preferences is unwarranted and unproductive. Just stating such aggressive opinions as facts is not that fun of a game to play, imo.

But we'd best leave the discussion at this and agree to disagree. We do all seem to want the same increase in diversity. I just don't agree with the hate crusade against the characters that are in there already.

The bolded claim again is not really meshing with what you're saying in the first quote above. I never said the female characters have the same schoolgirl design. I'm also not saying the female roster is objectively bad as it is right now. I'm saying it's too homogeneous. I'm saying that these characters are okay on an individual level, but you have too many of these type of characters, it becomes less diverse. I don't have a hate crusade against them. I think Alisa's moveset is pretty awesome. I was one of the less negative people when Chloe got revealed. I think Xiaoyu is an awesome awesome character. I'm using Lili right now in Tekken 7 since there's no Williams presence at the moment. Etc. Etc. In my very first or second post touching on this topic, I said this out front. On an individual level, all or mostly all of these characters are fine. That's not the issue at hand here.

No hard feelings~

I'm going to dodge this loaded rhetoric question (which suddenly pulls in a whole other slew of issues i don't wish to discuss) and am going to read it as "Why are there so many young pretty female characters in many games, over the type of character i prefer?"

The answer is obvious. There are apparently more people that like that than those who want to see things in line with your preferences. Sure sucks. That doesn't make those people wrong somehow or the characters in question without value.

You don't need to rephrase what I said in a different way. There's no need to be extremely cautious with our wording. This is an actual issue and can be openly discussed without brushing it under the carpet.

If many people liked the young, pretty characters, Tekken 7 wouldn't have been getting all the hate it got when lucky chloe got revealed. Not just on Neogaf, but also beyond, people largely were mocking the game because of this character and others decided to quit the franchise altogether.

Let's see if sales prove otherwise.

 

[Dereck]

That Korean tournament starts in about 7 hours from now (6PM in Seoul), I'll be awake anyway.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/south-korea/seoul

http://www.twitch.tv/greentekken