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The Bible and Homosexuality

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ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
To preface the conversation. I went out with some of my old Sunday School kids last night to watch MNF and the Bull's game. At that time I caught up with them, asked them how the college experience was going, etc. A lot of them were invovled in the college ministry where ever they chose to go to school and they were telling me how different their leaders in college were compared to me. And I wasn't surprised to hear that my views on things religious and secular were pretty much dismissed as "misleading and corrupting."

Anyway, one of the kids had an iPad, so I busted this article out for them, and amidst Drew Brees breaking records (and winning me my fantasy league (Thank Tebow!) and the Bulls choking away a game to the Warriors this is what I shared with them.

Homosexuality and the Bible

Homosexuality and the Bible

Sexual issues are tearing our churches apart today as never before. The issue of homosexuality threatens to fracture whole denominations, as the issue of slavery did one hundred and fifty years ago. We naturally turn to the Bible for guidance and find ourselves mired in interpretive quicksand. Is the Bible able to speak to our confusion on this issue?

The debate over homosexuality is a remarkable opportunity, because it raises in an especially acute way how we interpret the Bible, not in this case only, but in numerous others as well. The real issue here, then, is not simply homosexuality, but how Scripture informs our lives today.

Some passages that have been advanced as pertinent to the issue of homosexuality are, in fact, irrelevant.

One is the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Gen. 19: 1-29). That was a case of ostensibly heterosexual males intent on humiliating strangers by treating them “like women,” thus de-masculinizing them. (This is also the case in a similar account in Judges 19-21.) Their brutal behavior has nothing to do with the problem of whether genuine love expressed between consenting persons of the same sex is legitimate or not. Likewise, Deuteronomy 23:17-18 must be pruned from the list, since it most likely refers to a heterosexual prostitute involved in Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish worship; the King James Version inaccurately labeled him a “sodomite.”

Several other texts are ambiguous. It is not clear whether I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 refer to the “passive” and “active” partners in homosexual relationships, or to homosexual and heterosexual male prostitutes. In short, it is unclear whether the issue is homosexuality alone, or promiscuity and “sex-for-hire.”

Unequivocal Condemnations

Putting these texts to the side, we are left with three references, all of which unequivocally condemn homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 states the principle: “You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” The second (Lev. 20:13) adds the penalty: “If a man lies with a male as a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.”

Such an act was considered as an “abomination” for several reasons. The Hebrew pre-scientific understanding was that male semen contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the woman provided only the incubating space. Hence the spilling of semen for any procreative purpose — in coitus interruptus (Gen 38:1-11), male homosexual acts or male masturbation — was considered tantamount to abortion or murder. (Female homosexual acts and masturbation were consequently not so seriously regarded.) One can appreciate how a tribe struggling to populate a country in which its people were outnumbered would value procreation highly, but such values are rendered questionable in a world facing total annihilation through overpopulation.

In addition, when a man acted like a woman sexually, male dignity was compromised. It was a degradation, not only in regard to himself, but for every other male. The patriarchalism of Hebrew culture shows its hand in the very formulation of the commandment, since no similar stricture was formulated to forbid homosexual acts between females. And the repugnance felt toward homosexuality was not just that it was deemed unnatural, but also that it was considered un-Jewish, representing yet one more incursion of pagan civilization into Jewish life. On top of that is the more universal repugnance heterosexuals tend to feel for acts and orientations foreign to them. (Left-handedness has evoked something of the same response in many cultures.)

Persons committing homosexual acts are to be executed. This is the unambiguous command of scripture.

Whatever the rationale for their formulation, however, the texts leave no room for maneuvering. Persons committing homosexual acts are to be executed. This is the unambiguous command of scripture. The meaning is clear: anyone who wishes to base his or her beliefs on the witness of the Old Testament must be completely consistent and demand the death penalty for everyone who performs homosexual acts. (That may seem extreme, but there are actually some “Christians” urging this very thing today.) It is unlikely that any American court will ever again condemn a homosexual to death, even though Scripture clearly commands it.

Old Testament texts have to be weighed against the New. Consequently, Paul’s unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Roman 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men, likewise, gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does. He seemed to assume that those whom he condemns are heterosexual, and are acting contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving up,” or “exchanging” their regular sexual orientation for that which is foreign to them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychological understanding of homosexuals as persons whose orientation is fixed early in life, persons for whom having heterosexual relations would be contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving up” or “exchanging” their natural sexual orientation for one that was unnatural to them.

In other words, Paul really thought that those whose behavior he condemned were “straight,” and that they were behaving in ways that were unnatural to them. Paul believed that everyone was “straight.” He had no concept of homosexual orientation. The idea was not available in his world. There are people who are genuinely homosexual by nature (whether genetically, or as a result of upbringing no one really knows, and it is irrelevant). For such a person it would be acting contrary to nature to have sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex.

Likewise, the relationships Paul describes are heavy with lust; they are not relationships of consenting adults who are committed to each other as faithfully and with as much integrity as any heterosexual couple. That was something Paul simply could not envision. Some people assume today that venereal disease and AIDS are divine punishment for homosexual behavior; we know it as a risk involved in promiscuity of every stripe, homosexual and heterosexual. In fact, the vast majority of people with AIDS around the world are heterosexuals. We can scarcely label AIDS a divine punishment, since non-promiscuous lesbians are at almost no risk.

And Paul believes that homosexuality is contrary to nature, whereas we have learned that it is manifested by a wide variety of species, especially (but not solely) under the pressure of overpopulation. It would appear then to be a quite natural mechanism for preserving species. We cannot, of course, decide human ethical conduct solely on the basis of animal behavior or the human sciences, but Paul here is arguing from nature, as he himself says, and new knowledge of what is “natural” is therefore relevant to the case.

Hebrew Sexual Mores

Nevertheless, the Bible quite clearly takes a negative view of homosexual activity, in those few instances where it is mentioned at all. But this conclusion does not solve the problem of how we are to interpret Scripture today. For there are other sexual attitudes, practices, and restrictions which are normative in Scripture but which we no longer accept as normative:

† Old Testament law strictly forbids sexual intercourse during the seven days of the menstrual period (Lev. 18:19; 15:18-24), and anyone who engaged in it was to be “extirpated,” or “cut off from their people (kareth, Lev. 18:29, a term referring to execution by stoning, burning, strangling, or to flogging or expulsion; Lev. 15:24 omits this penalty). Today many people on occasion have intercourse during menstruation and think nothing of it. Are they sinners?

† Nudity, the characteristic of paradise, was regarded in Judaism as reprehensible (II Sam. 6:20; 10:4; Isa. 20:2-4; 47:3). When one of Noah’s sons beheld his father naked, he was cursed (Gen 9:20-27). To a great extent, this taboo probably even inhibited the sexual intimacy of husbands and wives (this is still true of a surprising number of people reared in the Judeo-Christian tradition). We may not be prepared for nude beaches, but are we prepared to regard nudity in the locker room or at the old swimming hole or in the privacy of one’s home as an accursed sin? The Bible does.

So if the Bible allowed polygamy and concubinage, why don’t we?

† Polygamy (many wives) and concubinage (a woman living with a man to whom she is not married) were regularly practiced in the Old Testament. Neither is ever condemned by the New Testament (with the questionable exceptions of I Timothy 3:2,12 and Titus 1:6). Jesus’ teaching about marital union in Mark 10:6-8 is no exception, since he quotes Gen. 2:24 as his authority (the man and the woman will become “one flesh”), and this text was never understood in Israel as excluding polygamy. A man could become “one flesh” with more than one woman, through the act of sexual intercourse. We know from Jewish sources that polygamy continued to be practiced within Judaism for centuries following the New Testament period. So, if the Bible allowed polygamy and concubinage, why don’t we?

† A form of polygamy was the levirate marriage. When a married man in Israel died childless, his widow was to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bore him a male heir. Jesus mentions this custom without criticism (Mark 12:18-27 par.) I am not aware of any Christians who still obey this unambiguous commandment of Scripture. Why is this law ignored, and the one against homosexual behavior preserved?

† The Old Testament nowhere explicitly prohibits sexual relations between unmarried consenting adults, as long as the woman’s economic value (bride price) is not compromised, that is to say, as long as she is not a virgin. There are poems in the Song of Songs that eulogize a love affair between two unmarried persons, though commentators have often conspired to cover up the fact with heavy layers of allegorical interpretation. In various parts of the Christian world, quite different attitudes have prevailed about sexual intercourse before marriage. In some Christian communities, proof of fertility (that is, pregnancy) was required for marriage. This was especially the case in farming areas where the inability to produce children-workers could mean economic hardship. Today, many single adults, the widowed, and the divorced are reverting to “biblical” practice, while others believe that sexual intercourse belongs only within marriage. Which is right?

† The Bible virtually lacks terms for the sexual organs, being content with such euphemisms as “foot” or “thigh” for the genitals, and using other euphemisms to describe coitus, such as “he knew her.” Today most of us regard such language as “puritanical” and contrary to a proper regard for the goodness of creation. In short, we don’t follow Biblical practice.

† Semen and menstrual blood rendered all who touched them unclean (Lev.. 15:16-24). Intercourse rendered one unclean until sundown; menstruation rendered the woman unclean for seven days. Today most people would regard semen and menstrual fluid as completely natural and only at times “messy,” not “unclean.”

† Social regulations regarding adultery, incest, rape and prostitution are, in the Old Testament, determined largely by considerations of the males’ property rights over women. Prostitution was considered quite natural and necessary as a safeguard of the virginity of the unmarried and the property rights of husbands (Gen. 38:12-19; Josh. 2:1-7). A man was not guilty of sin for visiting a prostitute, though the prostitute herself was regarded as a sinner. Even Paul must appeal to reason in attacking prostitution (I Cor. 6:12-20); he cannot lump it in the category of adultery (vs. 9). Today we are moving, with great social turbulence and at a high but necessary cost toward a more equitable, non-patriarchal set of social arrangements in which women are no longer regarded as the chattel of men. We are also trying to move beyond the double standard. Love, fidelity and mutual respect replace property rights. We have, as yet, made very little progress in changing the double standard in regard to prostitution. As we leave behind patriarchal gender relations, what will we do with the patriarchalism in the Bible?

† Jews were supposed to practice endogamy — that is, marriage within the 12 tribes of Israel. Until recently a similar rule prevailed in the American south, in laws against interracial marriage (miscegenation). We have witnessed, within the lifetime of many of us, the nonviolent struggle to nullify state laws against intermarriage and the gradual change in social attitudes towards interracial relationships. Sexual mores can alter quite radically even in a single lifetime.

† The law of Moses allowed for divorce (Deut. 24:1-4); Jesus categorically forbids it (Mark 10:1-12; Matt, 19:9 softens his severity). Yet many Christians, in clear violation of a command of Jesus, have been divorced. Why, then, do some of these very people consider themselves eligible for baptism, church membership, communion, and ordination, but not homosexuals? What makes the one so much greater a sin than the other, especially considering the fact that Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality, but explicitly condemned divorce? Yet we ordain divorcees. Why not homosexuals?

† The Old Testament regarded celibacy as abnormal and I Timothy 4:1-3 calls compulsory celibacy a heresy. Yet the Catholic Church has made it mandatory for priests and nuns. Some Christian ethicists demand celibacy of homosexuals, whether they have a vocation for celibacy or not. But this legislates celibacy by category, not by divine calling. Others argue that since God made men and women for each other in order to be fruitful and multiply, homosexuals reject God’s intent in creation. But this would mean that childless couples, single persons, priests and nuns would be in violation of God’s intention in their creation. Those who argue thus must explain why the apostle Paul never married. Are they prepared to charge Jesus with violating the will of God by remaining single? Certainly heterosexual marriage is normal, else the race would die out. But it is not normative. God can bless the world through people who are married and through people who are single, and it is false to generalize from the marriage of most people to the marriage of everyone. In I Cor. 7:7, Paul goes so far as to call marriage a “charisma,” or divine gift, to which not everyone is called. He preferred that people remain as he was – unmarried. In an age of overpopulation, perhaps a gay orientation is especially sound ecologically!

† In many other ways we have developed different norms from those explicitly laid down by the Bible: “If men get into a fight with one another and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand” (Deut 25:11 f). We, on the contrary, might very well applaud her for trying to save her husband’s life!

† The Old and New Testaments both regarded slavery as normal and nowhere categorically condemned it. Part of that heritage was the use of female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual toys, breeding machines, or involuntary wives by their male owners, which II Samuel 5:13, Judges 19-21, and Numbers 31:17-20 permitted — and as many American slave owners did some 150 years ago, citing these and numerous other Scripture passages as their justification.

The Problem of Authority

These cases are relevant to our attitude toward the authority of Scripture. They are not cultic prohibitions from the Holiness Code that are clearly superseded in Christianity, such as rules about eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two different materials. They are rules concerning sexual behavior, and they fall among the moral commandments of the Scripture. Clearly we regard certain rules, especially in the Old Testament, as no longer binding. Other things we regard as binding, including legislation in the Old Testament that is not mentioned at all in the New. What is our principle of selection here?

For example; virtually all modern readers would agree with the Bible in rejecting:

•incest
•rape
•adultery
•intercourse with animals
But we disagree with the Bible on most other sexual mores. The Bible condemned the following behaviors which we generally allow:

•intercourse during menstruation
•celibacy
•exogamy (marriage with non-Jews)
•naming sexual organs
•nudity (under certain conditions)
•masturbation (some Christians still condemn this)
•birth control (some Christians still forbid this)
And the bible regarded semen and menstrual blood as unclean, which most of us do not.

Likewise, the bible permitted behaviors that we today condemn:


•prostitution
•polygamy
•levirate marriage
•sex with slaves
•concubinage
•treatment of women as property
•very early marriage (for the girl, age 11-13)

And while the Old Testament accepted divorce, Jesus forbade it. In short, of the sexual mores mentioned here, we only agree with the Bible on four of them, and disagree with it on sixteen!

Surely no one today would recommend reviving the levirate marriage. So why do we appeal to proof texts in Scripture in the case of homosexuality alone, when we feel perfectly free to disagree with Scripture regarding most other sexual practices? Obviously many of our choices in these matters are arbitrary. Mormon polygamy was outlawed in this country, despite the constitutional protection of freedom of religion, because it violated the sensibilities of the dominant Christian culture, even though no explicit biblical prohibition against polygamy exists.

If we insist on placing ourselves under the old law, as Paul reminds us, we are obligated to keep every commandment of the law (Gal. 5:3). But if Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4), if we have been discharged from the law to serve, not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6), then all of these Old Testament sexual mores come under the authority of the Spirit. We cannot then take even what Paul says as a new law. Christians reserve the right to pick and choose which laws they will observe, though they seldom admit to doing just that. And this is as true of evangelicals and fundamentalists as it is of liberals and mainliners.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Continued

Judge for Yourselves

The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic. There is no biblical sex ethic. Instead it exhibits a variety of sexual mores, some of which changed over the thousand-year span of biblical history. Mores are unreflective customs accepted by a given community. Many of the practices that the Bible prohibits, we allow, and many that it allows, we prohibit. The Bible only knows a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given country, culture, or period.

The very notion of a “sex ethic” reflects the materialism and splitness of modern life, in which we increasingly define our identity sexually. Sexuality cannot be separated off from the rest of life. No sex act is “ethical” in and of itself, without reference to the rest of a person’s life, the patterns of the culture, the special circumstances faced, and the will of God. What we have are simply sexual mores, which change, sometimes with startling rapidity, creating bewildering dilemmas. Just within one lifetime we have witness the shift from the ideal of preserving one’s virginity until marriage, to couples living together for several years before getting married. The response of many Christians is merely to long for the hypocrisies of an earlier era.

I agree that rules and norms are necessary: that is what sexual mores are. But rules and norms also tend to be impressed into the service of the Domination System, and to serve as a form of crowd control rather than to enhance the fullness of human potential. So we must critique the sexual mores of any given time and clime by the love ethic exemplified by Jesus. Such a love ethic is non-exploitive (hence, no sexual exploitation of children, no using of another to their loss), it does not dominate (hence, no patriarchal treatment of women as chattel), it is responsible, mutual, caring, and loving. Augustine already dealt with this is his inspired phrase, “Love God, and do as you please.”

Our moral task, then, is to apply Jesus’ love ethic to whatever sexual mores are prevalent in a given culture. This doesn’t mean everything goes. It means that everything is to be critiqued by Jesus’ love commandment. We might address younger teens, not with laws and commandments whose violation is a sin, but rather with the sad experiences of so many of our own children who find too much early sexual intimacy overwhelming, and who react by voluntary celibacy and even the refusal to date. We can offer reasons, not empty and unenforceable orders. We can challenge both gays and straights to question their behaviors in the light of love and the requirements of fidelity, honesty, responsibility, and genuine concern for the best interests of the other and of society as a whole.

Christian morality, after all, is not an iron chastity belt for repressing urges, but a way of expressing the integrity of our relationship with God. It is the attempt to discover a manner of living that is consistent with who God created us to be. For those of same-sex orientation, as for heterosexuals, being moral means rejecting sexual mores that violate their own integrity and that of others, and attempting to discover what it would mean to live by the love ethic of Jesus.

Morton Kelsey goes so far as to argue that homosexual orientation has nothing to do with morality, any more than left-handedness does. It is simply the way some people’s sexuality is configured. Morality enters the picture when that pre-disposition is enacted. If we saw it as a God-given-gift to those for whom it is normal, we could get beyond the acrimony and brutality that have so often characterized the unchristian behavior of Christians toward gays.

Approached from the point of view of love, rather than that of law, the issue is at once transformed. Now the question is not “What is permitted?” but rather “What does it mean to love my homosexual neighbor?” Approached from the point of view of faith rather than of works, the question ceases to be “What constitutes a broach of divine law in the sexual realm?” and becomes instead “What constitutes obedience to the God revealed in the cosmic lover, Jesus Christ?” Approached from the point of view of the Spirit of the rather than of the letter, the question ceases to be “What does Scripture command?” and becomes “What is the Word that the Spirit speaks to the churches now, in the light of Scripture, tradition, theology, psychology, genetics, anthropology, and biology?” We can’t continue to build ethics on the basis of bad science.

In a little-remembered statement, Jesus said, “Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?” (Luke 12:57). Such sovereign freedom strikes terror in the hearts of many Christians; they would rather be under law and be told what is right. Yet Paul himself echoes Jesus’ sentiment immediately preceding one of his possible references to homosexuality: “Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!” (I Cor. 6:3). The last thing Paul would want is for people to respond to his ethical advice as a new law engraved on tablets of stone. He is himself trying to “judge for himself what is right.” If now new evidence is in on the phenomenon of homosexuality, are we not obligated — no, free — to re-evaluate the whole issue in the light of all available data and decide, under God, for ourselves? Is this not the radical freedom for obedience which the gospel establishes?

Where the bible mentions homosexual behavior at all, it clearly condemns it. I freely grant all that. The issue is precisely whether that Biblical judgment is correct. The Bible sanctioned slavery as well, and nowhere attacks it as unjust. Are we prepared to argue that slavery today is biblically justified? One hundred and fifty years ago when the debate over slavery was raging, the bible seemed to be clearly on the slave holders’ side. Abolitionists were hard pressed to justify their opposition to slavery on biblical grounds. Yet today, if you were to ask Christians in the South whether the Bible sanctions slavery, virtually everyone would agree that it does not.

How do we account for such a monumental shift?

What happened is that the churches were finally driven to penetrate beyond the legal tenor of Scripture to an even deeper tenor, articulated by Israel out of the experience of the Exodus and the prophets and brought to sublime embodiment in Jesus’ identification with harlots, tax collectors, the diseased and maimed and outcast and poor. It is that God suffers with the suffering and groans toward the reconciliation of all things. Therefore, Jesus went out of his way to declare forgiven, and to reintegrate into society in all details, those who were identified as “sinners” by virtue of the accidents of birth, or biology, or economic desperation. In the light of that supernal compassion, whatever our position on gays, the gospel’s imperative to love, care for, and be identified with their sufferings is unmistakably clear.

In the same way, women are pressing us to acknowledge the sexism and patriarchalism that pervades Scripture and has alienated so many women from the church. The way out, however, is not to deny the sexism in Scripture, but to develop and interpretive theory that judges even Scripture in the light of the revelation in Jesus. What Jesus gives us is a critique of domination in all its forms, a critique that can be can be turned on the Bible itself. The Bible thus contains the principles of its own correction. We are freed from bibliolatry, the worship of the Bible. It is restored to its proper place as witness to the Word of God. And that word is a Person, not a book.

“With the interpretive grid provided by a critique of domination, we are able to filter out the sexism, patriarchalism, violence, and homophobia that are very much a part of the Bible, thus liberating it to reveal to us in fresh ways the inbreaking, in our time of God’s domination-free order.

An Appeal for Tolerance

What saddens me in this whole raucous debate in the churches is how sub-Christian most of it has been. It is characteristic of our time that the issues most difficult to assess, and which have generated the greatest degree of animosity, are issues on which the Bible can be interpreted as supporting either side. I am referring to abortion and homosexuality.

We need to take a few steps back, and be honest with ourselves. I am deeply convinced of the rightness of what I have said in this essay. But I must acknowledge that it is not an airtight case. You can find weaknesses in it, just as I can in others’. The truth is, we are not given unequivocal guidance in either area, abortion or homosexuality. Rather than tearing at each others’ throats, therefore, we should humbly admit our limitations. How do I know I am correctly interpreting God’s word for us today? How do you? Wouldn’t it be wiser to lower the decibels by 95 percent and quietly present our beliefs, knowing full well that we might be wrong?

I know a couple, both well known Christian authors in their own right, who have both spoken out on the issue of homosexuality. She supports gays, passionately; he opposes their behavior, strenuously. So far as I can tell, this couple still enjoy each other’s company, eat at the same table, and, for all I know, sleep in the same bed. [He is speaking of the Campolos. See http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm for a debate between Peggy and Tony Campolo.]

We in the church need to get our priorities straight. We have not reached a consensus about who is right on the issue of homosexuality. But what is clear, utterly clear, is that we are commanded to love one another. Love not just our gay sisters and brothers, who are often sitting besides us, unacknowledged, in church, but all of us who are involved in this debate. These are issues about which we should amiable agree to disagree. We don’t have to tear whole denominations to shreds in order to air our differences on this point. If that couple I mentioned can continue to embrace across this divide, surely we can do so as well.

It started a very constructive conversation about the role of culture, history, scientific knowledge and progress within the religion. I don't know if it changed anyone, but I hope it will make some of my old students more open minded Christians. Anyway, GAF, I just want to share this little testimony with you about some fellowship I had last night. And this is about as far I go down the evangelising path.
 

Salazar

Member
Love is a motherfucker to argue against. Lust, too.

I'm not sure if some of the characterisation of gay folks as "suffering" comes off quite right - though many gay folks do, indeed, suffer. Good stuff, on the whole.
 
Interesting read.

I always assumed that homophobia had more to do with general ignorance and bigotry than an actual foundation in religion.

I hope that the time when we look at discrimination against homosexuals the same way we now look at slavery is not too far away.
 

Dead Man

Member
Good read. I am interested in the kids responses to this, did they seem swayed or even interested in it?

I am again reminded that most people that call themselves Christian, take what they like, and leave what they don't, from the Bible. Christianity is a cover for ignorance and bigotry too often. And as ever:

ChiTownBuffalo
This is what Jesus was talking about
(Yesterday, 11:05 PM)
Multi-Quote This Message Quote
 
Good read. I am interested in the kids responses to this, did they seem swayed or even interested in it?

I am again reminded that most people that call themselves Christian, take what they like, and leave what they don't, from the Bible. Christianity is a cover for ignorance and bigotry too often. And as ever:

ChiTownBuffalo
This is what Jesus was talking about
(Yesterday, 11:05 PM)
Multi-Quote This Message Quote

The Bible contradicts itself on almost every issue. There is no way not to.
 

JGS

Banned
Interesting article, but only partly correct.

The writer is definitely correct about Sodom. However, he is incorrect about Paul.

There's a bunch of stuff that's right and wrong (Like Song of Solomon), but will have to look at in detail.

Basically, there still remains ample evidence that fornication in all it's forms in the Christian church at least is condemned. Fornication in all it's forms was frowned heavily upon in the OT which is why there was a large penalty of one type or another when ones engaged in it.

Fortunately or not, there are plenty of churches that allow for any and all interpretations to be accepted so one has the pick of the litter.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Selective quoting from any "holy books" are amongst the worst offenders. Either accept that your religion needs to be refined from the ground, or stop projecting your insecurities to others using this or that "holy book" as a tool.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Good read........very interesting to hear how some of the kids reacted to that article?

Uhm..a couple of the kids were pretty much, "Yo, gay stuff is gross." But they agreed that there shouldn't be a difference how they were treated. Most were open to it, they are turned off by militant Christianity as well.

A couple went the "Teacher Mike, is this why you are single? Because you really like the gays."

For the most part good kids, I don't expect them to buy into it all, but it was nice to open their eyes a little bit more.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
you guys seem less like disciples, more like pr handlers. with god playing the role of "drunken celebrity with an itchy twitter finger".
 

V_Arnold

Member
ChiTownBuffalo, so you are a religion teacher? That must be a huge responsibility, considering the volatility of the subject.

I have always believed one simple thing regarding all this: if you follow Jesus's words, you do not judge anyone. No one. You just love. Everything else is just dressing, distortion or negligence.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
ChiTownBuffalo, so you are a religion teacher? That must be a huge responsibility, considering the volatility of the subject.

I have always believed one simple thing regarding all this: if you follow Jesus's words, you do not judge anyone. No one. You just love. Everything else is just dressing, distortion or negligence.

Nah, I was a Sunday School teacher. But I was asked to quit. I had views on faith that weren't what the parents wanted their kids to be taught.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
ChiTownBuffalo, so you are a religion teacher? That must be a huge responsibility, considering the volatility of the subject.

I have always believed one simple thing regarding all this: if you follow Jesus's words, you do not judge anyone. No one. You just love. Everything else is just dressing, distortion or negligence.
godwin, you asshole.
 

Bit-Bit

Member
I think using the Bible or any "holy" book for morals and views on how to live your life is a really stupid thing to do.

People who put their faith in such things gets no respect from me.

Meanwhile, Secularism has helped brought the world out of the dark ages. Many of the amazing and forward thinking that we have today is all achievable because a large number of us decided to think for ourselves.

More of that and less of using the Bible as proof of "absolute" morality. Since Christians can't even agree among themselves what the Bible is trying to say.
 

JGS

Banned
I think using the Bible or any "holy" book for morals and views on how to live your life is a really stupid thing to do.

People who put their faith in such things gets no respect from me.

Meanwhile, Secularism has helped brought the world out of the dark ages. Many of the amazing and forward thinking that we have today is all achievable because a large number of us decided to think for ourselves.

More of that and less of using the Bible as proof of "absolute" morality. Since Christians can't even agree among themselves what the Bible is trying to say.
Yet another person who thinks that the religious didn't play more than a little role in secularism.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
I think using the Bible or any "holy" book for morals and views on how to live your life is a really stupid thing to do.

People who put their faith in such things gets no respect from me.

Meanwhile, Secularism has helped brought the world out of the dark ages. Many of the amazing and forward thinking that we have today is all achievable because a large number of us decided to think for ourselves.

More of that and less of using the Bible as proof of "absolute" morality. Since Christians can't even agree among themselves what the Bible is trying to say.

No, knowldege brought Europe out of the Dark Ages, the rest of the world was doing fine on its own.

chasinghooper.jpg
 

Dunk#7

Member
Not entirely correct, but it does have some very good points. Especially the last section on tolerance.

Nobody here on earth has the right to judge anyone else as we are all equally guilty so we cannot point fingers.

However I disagree with the "pick and choose" comment from the author. From the New Testament onward we are living in grace and not under law. There were many parts of the Jewish law that were historical preferences and not part of God's law. You see this problem today in many churches as they try to push their preferences on other people when it is not even an issue discussed by the Bible. Try playing an electric guitar or a drum set in many churches and they will have a problem with it when there is nothing stated about it in the Bible.

Living under grace is what God intended for us and gives us freedom to live our lives in many different ways. God laid out a framework for us to work within, but where we go within that framework is up to us and our guiding by the Holy Spirit.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Once you start becoming selcetive in which teaching from the bible to follow it is just a reflection of your own beliefs.

No, Christ makes distinctions on what to follow and what to cast away. I'm following His word and His teachings.

But that really isn't the point.

I want to share with Gaf, that Christianity might not be what they think it is. I'm not saying that my way is right, I'm just sharing an experience I had amongst other beleivers to show them that maybe what they had been taught needs to be reconsidered. And still keeping it edifying to God, and our fellowship. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything.

But, members of Atheist-GAF, some of it intentional, some of it I think an uncontrollable urge, have an issues with this.

"You can't even follow your own rules. Therefore your faith is invalid. You must continue adhering to old doctrine so we can continue to mock you."

And if that's the way Atheist-GAF wants to present itself that's fine. I know many atheists are nice people that don't feel the need to go out of their way to make attacks. I hope the people who feel the need to lash out in a reactionary manner find some peace in their hearts. I would offer to pray for that peace, but I know that just torques alot of you off even more.
 
the fact that homosexuality is even an issue within a religion tells me all that i need to know about the religion.


I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything.

that does not sound very Christian... isnt the WHOLE POINT of Christianity to try and convert people to it? you know, to "save" other souls?

dont tell me you wouldnt like it if someone on GAF messaged you and told you he had converted to Christianity thanks to your posts...
 

Jintor

Member
that does not sound very Christian... isnt the WHOLE POINT of Christianity to try and convert people to it? you know, to "save" other souls?

dont tell me you wouldnt like it if someone on GAF messaged you and told you he had converted to Christianity thanks to your posts...

It's more like in the way that athiesm is not actually about making other people athiest but you sure as hell can't help getting into arguements with religious people!
 

akira28

Member
I gotta say that I don't think the conversation is even really worth having. Homosexuality has historically been something hidden and not much discussed, although every adult knows it's a fact of life. Now the Bible with it's list of rules and dictates on proper behavior wouldn't have anything good or even relevant really to say on homosexuality.

I love a good discussion, but I chalk this one up to dietary laws. I don't think the Bible has anything important to say about homosexuality, or wether or not one should eat shrimp. A whole lotta things make one "spiritually unclean" so, who gives? Formerly devout Roman Catholic speaking.

The new covenant pretty much covers it. Golden Rule says nothing against homosexuality. As long as there is love and good actions, no harm in my eyes.

you guys seem less like disciples, more like pr handlers. with god playing the role of "drunken celebrity with an itchy twitter finger".

Blame the priestly class.
 

JGS

Banned
No, Christ makes distinctions on what to follow and what to cast away. I'm following His word and His teachings.

But that really isn't the point.

I want to share with Gaf, that Christianity might not be what they think it is. I'm not saying that my way is right, I'm just sharing an experience I had amongst other beleivers to show them that maybe what they had been taught needs to be reconsidered. And still keeping it edifying to God, and our fellowship. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything.

But, members of Atheist-GAF, some of it intentional, some of it I think an uncontrollable urge, have an issues with this.

"You can't even follow your own rules. Therefore your faith is invalid. You must continue adhering to old doctrine so we can continue to mock you."

And if that's the way Atheist-GAF wants to present itself that's fine. I know many atheists are nice people that don't feel the need to go out of their way to make attacks. I hope the people who feel the need to lash out in a reactionary manner find some peace in their hearts. I would offer to pray for that peace, but I know that just torques alot of you off even more.
*clap*
 

Venfayth

Member
Not all Christians are the same, not all atheists are the same, there are a ton of smart people, a ton a stupid people, a ton of assholes, and a ton of saints on both sides.
 
The Book of Leviticus:

18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

If any churches change their stance on homosexuality it's just because of social pressure.. not sure how much clearer it can be that it's a sin.

this is where liberal/gay gaf freaks out though. It's just as much as a sin for someone to watch too much tv etc. doesn't mean they're going to hell.
 

akira28

Member
It's a sin sure, but the sourcebook is full of contradictions and bad rules. I say the Dungeon Master can call an audible on this one. Fundies can keep believing that it's a sin though. No one cares what they think.
 

Jintor

Member
If any churches change their stance on homosexuality it's just because of social pressure.. not sure how much clearer it can be that it's a sin.

this is where liberal/gay gaf freaks out though. It's just as much as a sin for someone to watch too much tv etc. doesn't mean they're going to hell.

Maybe not in theological terms, but the real-world persecution is a leeeeeettle different.
 
If any churches change their stance on homosexuality it's just because of social pressure.. not sure how much clearer it can be that it's a sin.

this is where liberal/gay gaf freaks out though. It's just as much as a sin for someone to watch too much tv etc. doesn't mean they're going to hell.

this post lol's me
 
No, Christ makes distinctions on what to follow and what to cast away. I'm following His word and His teachings.

Christ in the Bible contradicts himself as well. Are you supposed to follow mosaic law or not? He implies both that we should follow it and that we shouldn't in different parts of the bible. And that is just one example off the top of my head.
 

JGS

Banned
If any churches change their stance on homosexuality it's just because of social pressure.. not sure how much clearer it can be that it's a sin.

this is where liberal/gay gaf freaks out though. It's just as much as a sin for someone to watch too much tv etc. doesn't mean they're going to hell.
To me, it's far more simpler than these verses. The Bible condemns fornication. There is no provision in nearly any culture for marriage to be anything other than man or woman so it's silly to condemn the Bible for that. Sex and marriage always went together like peas and carrots and anything outside of that arrangement was frowned upon at a minimum.

So it's equally silly for a religion to handpick condemnation of homosexuality and not condemn sex between unmarried males and females (Something condemned more in the Bible). If one is not that big of a deal, then the other is not that big of a deal. You can't place more emphasis on one just because it seems grosser.

Once religions realize that the sin is very much the same between hetero & homo, then it's simply a matter of addressing how severe the punishment is. Depending on the religion, this could be anything from nothing (Same as any other mundane sin) to disfellowshipping (Flagrant disobedience of god's wishes).

The Biblical "contradictions" are largely produced by the opinions of the reader rather than what Scripture actually says.
 
It's more like in the way that athiesm is not actually about making other people athiest but you sure as hell can't help getting into arguements with religious people!

well, yea, of course. im personally completely honest and open about it. i would LOVE to make a religious person come back to what i think is reality. im not very good at it so i will probably fail 99,9999% of the time, but its still worth trying IMO.. for their sake. i tried to de-convert a friend of mine for a long time but i failed badly, so im trying to make up for it online...
 

Dead Man

Member
If any churches change their stance on homosexuality it's just because of social pressure.. not sure how much clearer it can be that it's a sin.

this is where liberal/gay gaf freaks out though. It's just as much as a sin for someone to watch too much tv etc. doesn't mean they're going to hell.

If you are using Leviticus as a literal and eternal source I hope you are following the rest of the rules.
 

Jintor

Member
well, yea, of course. im personally completely honest and open about it. i would LOVE to make a religious person come back to what i think is reality. im not very good at it so i will probably fail 99,9999% of the time, but its still worth trying IMO.. for their sake. i tried to de-convert a friend of mine for a long time but i failed badly, so im trying to make up for it online...

It's really hard to make any kind of religion-related conversation IRL, especially if you're challenging someone's beliefs (which you know is what I feel like I'm doing even if I'm just explaining my own). It's just so awkward.
 

GhaleonQ

Member
Assumptions that makes:

Christians don't recognize the Old/New Covenant differences
the Bible recognizes such a thing as "sexual identity"
the story of human beings is 1 of an increasingly perfected society, one which can better discern what is and is not "relevant" biblical instruction

Frankly, I only find extrabiblical "lenses" through which we view the text legitimate if they magnify something we missed, not if they distort the original work. Kierkegaard used existentialism to extrapolate brilliantly from the Word; um, literally almost everyone else who used it didn't. Augustine used the region's Classical scholars to develop biblical theology; Pelagius used them to develop a convenient doctrine of his own. The question we must ask is, "Did the author move the Bible, or was he moved BY the Bible?" I think it's the former, so I reject it.

There's nothing wrong with debating it; we must. Introducing a radical reinterpretation of the Bible that applies to more than just this issue is pretty heavy for a football party, though.

I have always believed one simple thing regarding all this: if you follow Jesus's words, you do not judge anyone. No one. You just love. Everything else is just dressing, distortion or negligence.

Naw. You don't judge in front of Jesus because He's the judge. You judge using a system when He's not here, because, obviously, not judging is absurd and would lead to horrible, horrible things. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 corinthians 6&version=ESV (It was even in the cherry-picked text by Walter Wink!) If you believe Jesus' words that He grants authority to persons on Earth, you ought to reject the notion of "not judging."

Once religions realize that the sin is very much the same between hetero & homo, then

In the text's defence, I should add that it does a good job of addressing JGS' (and my) stance on this.
 
Why in the world would anyone remain religious after that essay? It basically states that god passed down laws and strong decrees based on cultural and scientific understandings of the day, to be used by all of man for all of eternity without providing any rhyme or reason, simply because it suited a small group of people at one particular junction in time.
 

JGS

Banned
Christ in the Bible contradicts himself as well. Are you supposed to follow mosaic law or not? He implies both that we should follow it and that we shouldn't in different parts of the bible. And that is just one example off the top of my head.
Jesus followed the Mosaic Law and after his death fulfilled it. So to follow him is to follow the essence of the Law which is summed up in two commandments - Love God, Love your neighbor. Christians don't have a nation so much of the Law was impossible to do and not necessary
 

Forkball

Member
I never understood why people made such a big deal about the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality. It's only mentioned a few times and is dwarfed by the emphasis placed on other sins. It's not even in the Ten Commandments, and it probably wouldn't even be in the top 15.
 

JGS

Banned
Why in the world would anyone remain religious after that essay? It basically states that god passed down laws and strong decrees based on cultural and scientific understandings of the day, to be used by all of man for all of eternity without providing any rhyme or reason, simply because it suited a small group of people at one particular junction in time.
Because the essay isn't necessarily correct. It's an opinion piece.

I'm kind of surprised that ones would accept a premise that Paul, who was a Roman who had a missionary campaign that covered all the pagan territories would not be familiar to some extent with homosexuality.

Now I can understand that Paul would not be able to deem homosexuality seperate from being gay. However, that is irrelevant since a gay person is not condemned in the Bible and Paul alludes to these ones becoming Christians. He goes on even more about how there is not a need to marry or have sex.

Paul does not see a problem with being gay and celibate or being straight & celibate. After all, he was.
 
Why in the world would anyone remain religious after that essay? It basically states that god passed down laws and strong decrees based on cultural and scientific understandings of the day, to be used by all of man for all of eternity without providing any rhyme or reason, simply because it suited a small group of people at one particular junction in time.
At the end of the day, people still want an eternal paradise at the end of their lives and a divine super being to guide them when they are still alive. I think that's why most people remain religious. They'll discard all the other baggage that is within their religion but keep all the stuff that brings them comfort.
 

Dunk#7

Member
I never understood why people made such a big deal about the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality. It's only mentioned a few times and is dwarfed by the emphasis placed on other sins. It's not even in the Ten Commandments, and it probably wouldn't even be in the top 15.

Because the Bible states a sin is a sin and that all sins are equal in God's eyes.

If you accept the Bible as truth then the number of occurrences of a particular statement is not important
 

dinazimmerman

Incurious Bastard
Some questionable Biblical exegesis in that article. I prefer these articles for understanding the Bible and homosexuality:

"Homosexuality" from Richard B. Hays's The Moral Vision of the New Testament: http://virtual.rts.edu/Site/Staff/r...Scenarios/Hays_Moral_Vision_Homosexuality.pdf

"Debate & Discernment: Scripture and the Spirit" by Timothy Johnson: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3zErv4wR3g8ZjM3OGNlMWUtMzcxMC00OGYxLWJhN2UtMzdmZWY3YzY1NGRi

"The Body's Grace" by Rowan Williams: http://www.igreens.org.uk/bodys_grace.htm
 
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