Support NeoGAF

[sasimirobot]

Are you denying that this is primarily an English forum and this thread is primarily for students of Japanese? What the hell is wrong with you?

H

Students of Japanese should know official romanization, not mock it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

yes

I must say you have a talent for coming into a thread, acting like a know-it-all, and shitting the place up. Are you going to actually defend your argument about "Z" being better than "J" from a linguistics standpoint? Both Kanji and Kanzi are completely valid forms of romanization, but "kanzi" is extremely rare in the west and fairly rare within Japan as well.

 

[scottnak]

You know. I've never ever been more satisfied to finally see this

sasimirobot
Banned
(Today, 02:01 AM)

I wrote up a few replies too but just couldn't handle the asshattery here. He mucked up a good thread. Personally, I'm surprised you let him go on for such time sp0rsk...

Anyway, Re-requesting my question since it got buried, if anyone has any experience with other Kanji-related DS games aside from the one posted in the OP.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Sweet.
Okay now that that's over, here's something I've been working with lately.




I'm able to pass the 10級 tests they put out, but my completion progress on the study part is still at 29% and goes up REALLY slowly.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Students of Japanese should know official romanization, not mock it.

They should definitely know it, but the system is barely used in practice in comparison to the Hepburn system. Sure when typing Japanese I often use the Nihon-shiki style and, for example, type "susi" or "siki" for ”すし” and ”しき”, but you will rarely see a name or place actually romanized in the Nihon-shiki format. Almost everything uses the Hepburn system.

edit: oh well, he's gone...

 

[sprsk]

You know. I've never ever been more satisfied to finally see this

sasimirobot
Banned
(Today, 02:01 AM)

I wrote up a few replies too but just couldn't handle the asshattery here. He mucked up a good thread. Personally, I'm surprised you let him go on for such time sp0rsk...

Anyway, Re-requesting my question since it got buried, if anyone has any experience with other Kanji-related DS games aside from the one posted in the OP.

The thing about kanji on the DS is that the screens really small and writing them properly can be rather difficult.

 

[RevenantKioku]

The thing about kanji on the DS is that the screens really small and writing them properly can be rather difficult.

Really? I've yet to have a problem. I had more of a problem having the damn thing recognize a fucking 7, but when I saw how my kids write them, I started doing that and have had less issues.

 

[Mandoric]

silly...

nobody says "su-si", or nobody says "su-shi"...

funny how you are so stuck on a romanizaztion that fits your you way of speaking, no matter that Japanese isn't English, lets just fit it into your little world of English letters and "care-ree-o-key"
you are right, it should be easy to read...
for you.

Put in reverse, romanization's pointless except as a way to denote only an approximate reading, for either mechanical or reader-illiteracy reasons---while you argue for adherence to the current government standard,since it's closer to the grid of sounds in this case, it itself makes compromises in certain dipthongs that the common bastardized Hepburn of the internet preserves.

Making an issue out of it either way from an angle of "Japanese expressed in only 7-bit characters" betrays nothing but an attachment to one's habitual method.

(Alternately, if it's an issue of loanwords proper, the lack of an old standard and the prevalence of "kanji" in modern usage makes "kanzi" no more correct than a number "エート".)

 

[sprsk]

Really? I've yet to have a problem. I had more of a problem having the damn thing recognize a fucking 7, but when I saw how my kids write them, I started doing that and have had less issues.

From my experience, it's hard to write while holding the system upright, and you can never write it just right, this is with the DS fat though. If you want to practice writing you're better off with some paper and a pen.

 

[RevenantKioku]

From my experience, it's hard to write while holding the system upright, and you can never write it just right, this is with the DS fat though. If you want to practice writing you're better off with some paper and a pen.

Oh, I definitely recommend some pen and paper writing, but Kanken has been giving me a good feel too.

 

[Chris R]

Currently using Minna No Nihongo to try and get into 2nd semester Japanese next semester at school. Should I find a different book? I did take a first semester, but that was about 4 years ago, and there was NO kanji involved.... :lol

 

[marvelharvey]

Currently using Minna No Nihongo to try and get into 2nd semester Japanese next semester at school. Should I find a different book? I did take a first semester, but that was about 4 years ago, and there was NO kanji involved.... :lol

Where abouts are you? I'm using Minna No Nihongo, currently on the finally chapter of book no.2, firmly placing me at the end of 'beginner' and on the cusp of 'intermediate' level. My Osaka-ben is pretty good though! Anyway, while the books aren't too bad, they suffer from a few issues:

-Their example sentences are incredibly sterile/boring.
-They often omit how to express grammar in the negative or past form.
-I hate Mr Miller, he's a prick.

That being said, I have no frame of reference, the Minna No Nihongo books are the only studying materials I've used for any length of time. However, I've had a peek at a few others and the GENKI series seemed to be the one I'd rather be using, mainly due to their more comical examples.

 

[marvelharvey]

OK, question for those of you with a better understanding of kanji. I'm only at around the 300 mark right now, and there's a few words that I'm a little confused over. My dictionary (a DS) doesn't seem to be accurate enough with explanations. Here's a few I've studied in the past few days, all come out with the same meaning, but there must be some difference. Can anyone give some more details to these translations?

½É¼Ë-lodging
½ÉÇñ-lodging
¼ÁÌä-question
Ì䤤-question
Îò»Ë-history
Îò-history
»Ë-history
ʪÍý³Ø¼Ô- my dictionary doesn't have a meaning for this
²Ê³Ø-science
Íý²Ê-science

And regarding the 'history' kanjis, is there a difference between ÆüËÜÎò and ÆüËܻˡ©

Thanks in advance.

PS If these kanji aren't showing up, please let me know. My browser has a habit or spitting out question marks!

PPS I've decide that I shall invest in a proper dictionary first thing tomorrow.

 

[Blackace]

Îò»Ë-history
Îò-history
»Ë-history

And regarding the 'history' kanjis, is there a difference between ÆüËÜÎò and ÆüËܻˡ©

As far as I know the proper way to say Japanese history is 日本史　or 日本の歴史　

the kanji 史 seems to be used in regards to things that carry historical weight.. hence the word 史家 which means historian. 暦 seems to be history on a smaller scale.. like personal stuff. like a resume 履歴書 and so on.. that's how I see them used anyways

 

[marvelharvey]

As far as I know the proper way to say Japanese history is ÆüËܻˡ¡or ÆüËܤÎÎò»Ë¡¡

the kanji »Ë seems to be used in regards to things that carry historical weight.. hence the word »Ë²È which means historian. Îñ seems to be history on a smaller scale.. like personal stuff. like a resume ÍúÎò½ñ and so on.. that's how I see them used anyways

As someone who majored in Japanese History, I pretty sure you know what you're talking about when it involves those kanji! Anyway, that makes perfect sense. ¿å±ËÎò was confusing me, but now I realize it's not 'the history of swimming', it's someone's personal swimming history. Cheers!

 

[RevenantKioku]

Weird, Blackace's kanji show fine for me but marvelharvey, yours are just gibberish.

 

[Zoe]

Weird, Blackace's kanji show fine for me but marvelharvey, yours are just gibberish.

It shows up if you switch to EUC encoding.

 

[BobFromPikeCreek]

Weird, Blackace's kanji show fine for me but marvelharvey, yours are just gibberish.

Same. Strange.

Edit: Ah, I see.

 

[RevenantKioku]

It shows up if you switch to EUC encoding.

Encodings will be the end of me!
But the one the dictionary didn't have, 物理学者 is physicist.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I'm really glad that I missed that guy completely shitting up the thread. I am really going to try and find a japanese person who writes it out as Kanzi though. hah.

I just don't understand his point, he tried to belittle us by saying we are just trying to fit it into our own language, but isn't that the point of romanization in the first place? @.@

But yeah, back on topic. Definitely going to get this book, just keep forgetting to order it. :/

 

[Askia47]

Right now im up to frame 400, this is the point I keep getting weak at, I have to keep pushing though!

 

[Shouta]

I'm really glad that I missed that guy completely shitting up the thread. I am really going to try and find a japanese person who writes it out as Kanzi though. hah.

I just don't understand his point, he tried to belittle us by saying we are just trying to fit it into our own language, but isn't that the point of romanization in the first place? @.@

I've seen a few Japanese people do it here and there but it's really uncommon. While the Hepburn system isn't linguistically as good as the other, it's a far more logical system in regards to practical usage. It lines up nicely when you want to learn English and Japanese and is probably why it's more commonly used.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I've seen a few Japanese people do it here and there but it's really uncommon. While the Hepburn system isn't linguistically as good as the other, it's a far more logical system in regards to practical usage. It lines up nicely when you want to learn English and Japanese and is probably why it's more commonly used.

Yeah I understand how it is better in some instances, but I just don't see it with the Kanzi usage personally.

The sound in　字　is a lot closer to Ji to my ears.... Maybe not in ズーズー弁　or something. hehe

 

[scottnak]

Yeah I understand how it is better in some instances, but I just don't see it with the Kanzi usage personally.

The sound in　字　is a lot closer to Ji to my ears.... Maybe not in ズーズー弁　or something. hehe

Yarr. Agree wholeheartedly.

Thanks for the DS Recs Revenant. I'll toss 'em to my dad and see what he thinks, and I'll get back to you guys on what I decided on (and how it turns out... heh)

 

[marvelharvey]

It shows up if you switch to EUC encoding.

What encoding are most people using?

 

[thetrin]

What encoding are most people using?

UTF-8 (or Shift JIS) is what I use.

 

[marvelharvey]

UTF-8 (or Shift JIS) is what I use.

Let's see if Shift JIS works for me...

‚»‚̔ޏ—‚͐K‚ªŒy‚¢

Edit: Cool, that isn't gibberish. Cheers Trin

 

[thetrin]

Let's see if Shift JIS works for me...

‚»‚̔ޏ—‚͐K‚ªŒy‚¢

Edit: Cool, that isn't gibberish. Cheers Trin

No prob.

 

[marvelharvey]

Ahh, this is why I stopped using JShift. The kanji I could read perfectly well a few moments ago has turned into: ‚»‚̔ޏ—‚͐K‚ªŒy‚¢

Damn Safari, I really should convert to firefox. Anyway, time to test UTF-8:

マスターソードが手に入れる！

 

[thetrin]

I recommend UTF-8. It's what I use at home (my work automatically supports UTF-8 and ISO).

マスターソードが手に入れる！

That's a butter knife you've got...

 

[RevenantKioku]

UTF-8 for the fucking win.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I'm really glad that I missed that guy completely shitting up the thread. I am really going to try and find a japanese person who writes it out as Kanzi though. hah.

I just don't understand his point, he tried to belittle us by saying we are just trying to fit it into our own language, but isn't that the point of romanization in the first place? @.@

He's part of an obnoxious school of thought that says each romanization should remain constant throughout the kana grid, ie.: ta, ti tu te to. So he's saying it should be sa si su se so, and by extension after adding the little " thing za zi zu ze zo instead of za ji zu ze zo.

Not only is this pointlessly anal, it's counterproductive since sounds like zi exist as seperate constructions in Japanese so it just adds confusion. You occasionally see signs written around Japan rendering "chi" as "ti", I think it's pretty ugly myself.

Excellent banning all round imo.

 

[marvelharvey]

UTF-8 for the fucking win.

Indeed, it hasn't fucked things up this time UTF-8 forever!

 

[Vaux]

Edit: mistake.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

To start, find a good J-E dictionary. I use the one built into OS X.

Where in OS X is this function and how do I access it?

thanks for this thread

 

[RevenantKioku]

Where in OS X is this function and how do I access it?

thanks for this thread

Open up dictionary.app and enable it. Can be found in the preferences window. It's a Leopard thing, though.
I use it for J-J stuff but for J-E i still use JEDict.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

thanks I don't have 10.5 yet

Remembering the Kanji I: A Complete Course on How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters Vol. 1 4th Edition (Paperback)

this one is so expensive
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/4889960759/?tag=neogaf0e-20

what about this? are they not the same?

Remembering the Kanji: A Systematic Guide to Reading Japanese Characters (Remembering the Kanji)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0824831667/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I would think they are not the same

oh it comes in 3 books

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0824831659/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[RevenantKioku]

Yeah, 4th Edition is out of print, hence the prices. 5th Edition should be available...
yeah
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0824831659/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Yeah, 4th Edition is out of print, hence the prices. 5th Edition should be available...
yeah
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0824831659/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Thanks Again

Ordered

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I think I get my first Heisig books later today

Since I have more free time now for the next few months, I think I'm going to put a good amount of time on this method at least 4 hours per day self study.


what is your method to using the Heisig books?

Do you write each Kanji out a few times or many times until you feel you can write it naturally?

Do you create your own stories for each Kanji, if the story in the book is not good enough?

Do you find other keywords for the Kanji or just focus on writing and remembering it?

If I want to spend hours each day I need a good plan or I'll get lazy

 

[Zalasta]

暦 seems to be history on a smaller scale.. like personal stuff. like a resume 履歴書 and so on.. that's how I see them used anyways

Huh? I don't speak Japanese but those two Kanji characters are completely different. It's probably a typo on your part since 暦 has a different character on the bottom than 歴. In Chinese, the former is usually in reference to calendar, while the latter is used as experience/history (and thus in resume, since it has to do with your work experience/history).

 

[Smiles and Cries]

one thing about kanji when you guys post them in the thread they are so small I can't even see the details enough to read it, how the hell do you get use to reading tiny Kanji?

 

[RevenantKioku]

what is your method to using the Heisig books?

Do you write each Kanji out a few times or many times until you feel you can write it naturally?

Just once like he recommends. That's for the first time. Every review gets 1.

Do you create your own stories for each Kanji, if the story in the book is not good enough?

Yeah. It's all about you remembering them, so do what works. I have some pretty fucked up and perverse stories, but...they wor.

Do you find other keywords for the Kanji or just focus on writing and remembering it?

I sometimes clarify the keyword in my SRS if I find I confuse it with something else. But I've only done this like twice. Usually it's words that could be a noun or a verb and my brain confuses them.

If I want to spend hours each day I need a good plan or I'll get lazy

This was my routine when I started.
First read the first three chapters. Then study these characters in Anki For the first time I go over a character (i.e. it is still new according to Anki) I rank it a 2 so I will see it tomorrow.
Then I started on this pattern for my study time.

1) Learn about 30~50 new kanji. (Obviously adjust to what you feel you need. This was about right for me.)
2) Do daily Anki repetition. For reviews 0 is if I forgot it, 1 is if I made a mistake. 2 is if it took too long or I made several mistakes that I corrected. 3 is if I took a while or made a simple mistake that I immediately knew to correct. 4 is if I got it instantly.
3) Continue into the next new ones. Stop when Anki shows a new character I haven't learned yet.
4) If time permits (seriously some days it did) go back to step 1. Otherwise put studying aside for tomorrow.

one thing about kanji when you guys post them in the thread they are so small I can't even see the details enough to read it, how the hell do you get use to reading tiny Kanji?

Heisig really did it for me. I just became more familiar with the shapes so it is easier to pick out. Older games still have mashed kanji that make me want to hurt things, but I'm a lot better at guessing now.

Some think that only writing the kanji once per review isn't much but... I do daily reviews, there are 2000 kanji and I average about 50 reviews a day so... here's a picture of my notebook

These are 2 of 40 pages worth of kanji since September. This doesn't include the times I forgot my notebook and wrote on other pieces of paper or drew on my palm.
I said Heisig was easier, but I didn't mean to imply that it was completely without effort.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

thanks again RevenantKioku

 

[tnw]

Just once
Some think that only writing the kanji once per review isn't much but... I do daily reviews, there are 2000 kanji and I average about 50 reviews a day so... here's a picture of my notebook

These are 2 of 40 pages worth of kanji since September. This doesn't include the times I forgot my notebook and wrote on other pieces of paper or drew on my palm.
I said Heisig was easier, but I didn't mean to imply that it was completely without effort.

yikes, why don't you use the kanji renshuu chou that they sell instead of ghetto american college student style. the boxes in the renshuu chou will make sure your kanji have the right proportions and are larger in size. you can find them at any stationary (bungu) store.

this is a very popular series you can find almost anywhere

 

[RevenantKioku]

yikes, why don't you use the kanji renshuu chou that they sell instead of ghetto american college student style. the boxes in the renshuu chou will make sure your kanji have the right proportions and are larger in size. you can find them at any stationary (bungu) store.

look, this one even has pokemon, to appeal to your, uh, gamer side.

Because I bought a bulk of these for around 300 yen when I got here? XD

 

[Smiles and Cries]

yikes, why don't you use the kanji renshuu chou that they sell instead of ghetto american college student style. the boxes in the renshuu chou will make sure your kanji have the right proportions and are larger in size. you can find them at any stationary (bungu) store.

look, this one even has pokemon, to appeal to your, uh, gamer side.

I can order these in the US?

J-List has those notebooks I wondered if the investment was worth it they are like $2.50 + shipping and only 200 pages which mean I would need many of them if I wanted to write kanji all the time

looks like its only 2.50

 

[tnw]

Because I bought a bulk of these for around 300 yen when I got here? XD

so why aren't you using them?

 

[RevenantKioku]

so why aren't you using them?

By these I meant the college ruled ones that you see me using.

 

[tnw]

By these I meant the college ruled ones that you see me using.

well, you should practice with the renshuucho. It's better for getting the appropriate proportions.

not that I can write worth a damn. or ever have the need too.

except when you're filling out forms every few months or so.