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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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AmMortal

Banned
Anki looks really good, but i have to say im kind of doubting this dudes method...im scared i wont learn nothing in the end.

i already watch A LOT of anime and sometimes listen to japanese music.
 

RevenantKioku

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Yeah but do you really listen to the Japanese? Probably have subs on to which is distracting.
Also it's really the sentence reviewing that gets things good in your head.
And what's "a lot" anyway?
 

AmMortal

Banned
multiple times daily, but your right i do watch and read with subs.

If raw episodes help a lot, then im gonna have to listen more often than reading.
 

RevenantKioku

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There's a lot to it. It's not just as simple as watching a lot of anime. If you dig into it you'll see how the sentence reviewing method works and eventually how you're working up to looking up Japanese words in Japanese. It's basically the idea of learning Japanese by studying already proper Japanese sentences.
There's definitely work involved and it's more than just "listen to Japanese music and watch anime" all day. But there's no denying that a lot of exposure to a language you're learning will help you get better faster.
 
Just popping in here to register my complaint towards the absolute mind fuck that is 尊敬語 and 謙譲語. After 9 months of full time studying, nothing has spun my head around as much as that bullshit.

If Japanese was a computer game, I would have thrown the controller against the wall, taken it back to the shop, demanded a refund and then sent hate mail to the developer.
 

RevenantKioku

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There's a goddamned 尊敬語 question in Persona 3 right now.
BUT I GOT IT RIGHT WOO. :D
 
People say that anime with subs don't help..but it's helped me a lot.

I have learned a lot of words...sentence structures...and you learn alot about how words or phrases are used...

I am going to through audio/video tutorials to learn Japanese from scratch which I feel is ultimately needed, But anime has really helps me on the side.


EDIT:

Writing the word "Japanese" in Kanji. I am a little confused. Is it composed of 3 different Kanji characters?
 

angelfly

Member
bigmit3737 said:
People say that anime with subs don't help..but it's helped me a lot.

I have learned a lot of words...sentence structures...and you learn alot about how words or phrases are used...

I am going to through audio/video tutorials to learn Japanese from scratch which I feel is ultimately needed, But anime has really helps me on the side.


EDIT:

Writing the word "Japanese" in Kanji. I am a little confused. Is it composed of 3 different Kanji characters?

Yup ni-hon-go 日本語

I also use anime but my helpers for A/V learning are jdramas.
 
For those that learned Japanese as their second language, after English, was it hard to stop associating words with Romaji.

I am learning Hiragana at the moment, and I am trying to associate the characters with the sounds, but I am associating with Romaji first.

I am trying to break this pattern.

Thus I am drilling the sounds with that characters into my head, as much as I can.

It's Tough!
 
angelfly said:
Yup ni-hon-go 日本語

I also use anime but my helpers for A/V learning are jdramas.


Ahhh thank you. I decided not to get the Hesig book because it was really confusing me.
When I saw those three characters, I didn't even know it was for one word, Japanese...I thought there was a sentence that involved a tree and Sun/Day because I was only studying the Kanji characters.

I personally feel It's important to study the words associated with the Kanji as well.

Now I understand what one of the above poster meant by studying the vocabulary as well.
 

Axalon

Member
bigmit3737 said:
Ahhh thank you. I decided not to get the Hesig book because it was really confusing me.
When I saw those three characters, I didn't even know it was for one word, Japanese...I thought there was a sentence that involved a tree and Sun/Day because I was only studying the Kanji characters.

I personally feel It's important to study the words associated with the Kanji as well.

Now I understand what one of the above poster meant by studying the vocabulary as well.

I'm actually going through the Heisig stuff now (in parallel to expanding my vocabulary), and what you did was the big mistake of trying to read when you can't, which isn't the point of the book. It's meant to learn how to write them along with associating them with one of their individual meanings (the majority have multiple meanings when used in compounds). As for telling when it's one word or more, they'll usually be separated by a particle, though it isn't always true, so you just have to know what's being said.

Evenwithoutspacesyoucanreadwhatiswrittenherebecauseyouknowallthewordsused.

However, it can prove interesting what the symbolism behind the words are. Like, 日曜日 literally means "sun day", and 月曜日 literally means "moon day", which I found interesting as those are the names we came up with for the seventh and first days of the week independently of them. :p

In case you were curious, the meaning behind 日本 (にほん, aka Japan) is actually "sun's origin", which makes sense when you take the first kanji, meaning "sun", and the second, which means "origin" (hence "Land of the Rising Sun"). Though, oddly, the second kanji is pronounced "ほん", which is the reading for "book". The reading to mean "origin" is "もと". Go read the Wikipedia page on "Names of Japan" if you care about the history behind that one.

Therefore, you get 日本 (にほん, Japan) and 語 (ご, language), so putting them together (日本語) gets us "Japan's language".

/trivia

edit(s): Grammar, fact correction, etc.
 

Mikazuki

Army death height crane group location world
I have nothing constructive to say, I believe. I just spent 11 hours on my kanji. I have a headache and I'm delirious, but it's all worth it.

P.S. Never learn lots of kanji and take a 3-4 month break. You will be more humiliated and dicouraged than when you first started.

Mario Galaxy knocked me out of a good habit, but now I'm back fighting harder than ever!
 

sasimirobot

Junior Member
weird. I went to a job interview in San Fernando valley. Ended up speaking Thai in the lobby with a group of 4 women, and then the guy that interviewed me asked me to speak Japanese (it was written on my resume).

I was like "uh...what do you want me to say?".

whatever, he was Korean anyhow.

gotta love SoCal for random language ability ftw?
 

Talka

Member
Just an observation from personal experience:

People who want to learn Japanese because they really like anime don't last long. I'm finishing up my 5th semester of Japanese in college right now (going to take JLPT 1 this year), and I can tell you that at the end of every semester half of the students give up. It started off with 6 classes of 20 students, then it became 3 classes of 20, then one class of 20, then one class of 10, and now it's me and four other people. The super annoying anime freaks were the first to go. Nobody's left who was learning so they could watch anime without subtitles.

If you really want to learn the language, prepare for the long haul. Getting infatuated with the idea and giving up in three months like 75% of the people that try makes you lame. And for christ's sake, you're going to have to learn at least 2,000 kanji. Start learning them at a rapid pace, go download Anki or something, and stop getting proud of yourself after every single one you learn.

I really doubt listening to anime is going to help you learn anything. Whatever you'll be able to get out of straining to pick up a grammar structure every few months could be learned if you sat down with a grammar book for a few weeks and just learned it the real way.
 
Mikazuki said:
I have nothing constructive to say, I believe. I just spent 11 hours on my kanji. I have a headache and I'm delirious, but it's all worth it.

P.S. Never learn lots of kanji and take a 3-4 month break. You will be more humiliated and dicouraged than when you first started.

Mario Galaxy knocked me out of a good habit, but now I'm back fighting harder than ever!

11 hrs! Nice job.

I have been switching between, audio books and studying drilling Hiragana into my head.

I am really proud of all that I have learned. And now when I look at the Jap characters in screen shots of games, I am not intimidated at all, infact, it feels good to recognize some.

The really odd part is, despite the amount of hours I am putting in, I am really enjoying it.
 

sasimirobot

Junior Member
Talka said:
Just an observation from personal experience:

People who want to learn Japanese because they really like anime don't last long. I'm finishing up my 5th semester of Japanese in college right now (going to take JLPT 1 this year), and I can tell you that at the end of every semester half of the students give up. It started off with 6 classes of 20 students, then it became 3 classes of 20, then one class of 20, then one class of 10, and now it's me and four other people. The super annoying anime freaks were the first to go. Nobody's left who was learning so they could watch anime without subtitles.

If you really want to learn the language, prepare for the long haul. Getting infatuated with the idea and giving up in three months like 75% of the people that try makes you lame. And for christ's sake, you're going to have to learn at least 2,000 kanji. Start learning them at a rapid pace, go download Anki or something, and stop getting proud of yourself after every single one you learn.

I really doubt listening to anime is going to help you learn anything. Whatever you'll be able to get out of straining to pick up a grammar structure every few months could be learned if you sat down with a grammar book for a few weeks and just learned it the real way.


had the same experience (college Japanese course kept getting thinner and thinner..). but saying that listening to anime is not going to help would be like saying that a Japanese person watching Disney cartoons is not gonna help them.

What makes the difference between somebody who will/won't learn is the curve. It takes a shit load of time and mental investment to learn any language. Once the ani-nerds learn that 10 hours of Hentai/week doesnt cut it they break out.

What you should keep in mind though is that we are all on the same learning curve, until we move/live in Japan. You can study Kanzi all day long for 10 years, watch every Naruto movie ever made, but until you have a day to day visual/verbal/mental experience submersion with the Japanese language in Japan, you will always be behind even the most trife random Iranian jewelry pimp in Roppongi.

Move to Japan to learn Japanese? yes


Now if you dedicate yourself to watching
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Talka said:
Just an observation from personal experience:

People who want to learn Japanese because they really like anime don't last long. I'm finishing up my 5th semester of Japanese in college right now (going to take JLPT 1 this year), and I can tell you that at the end of every semester half of the students give up. It started off with 6 classes of 20 students, then it became 3 classes of 20, then one class of 20, then one class of 10, and now it's me and four other people. The super annoying anime freaks were the first to go. Nobody's left who was learning so they could watch anime without subtitles.
I disagree, from personal experience. But it's really the ones who think a class or two will get them everything they need, that it will be doable without effort or that drop it. Hell, some don't drop because of lack of effort just lack of class slots and comparative priorities. Stop being so hard on folk you don't know. :D
But I do agree that if you don't get other interests in the language and culture it would be hard. I only started because I wanted to play Final Fantasy 5 in Japanese. My interests are much broader now, of course and I try not to tell anyone how it started. :lol

If you really want to learn the language, prepare for the long haul. Getting infatuated with the idea and giving up in three months like 75% of the people that try makes you lame. And for christ's sake, you're going to have to learn at least 2,000 kanji. Start learning them at a rapid pace, go download Anki or something, and stop getting proud of yourself after every single one you learn.
You, uh, should be proud. If you're not excited and pumped about learning that's when it gets hard to continue. The key is to realize how good you really are and be willing to admit to yourself you still have a long way to go.

I really doubt listening to anime is going to help you learn anything. Whatever you'll be able to get out of straining to pick up a grammar structure every few months could be learned if you sat down with a grammar book for a few weeks and just learned it the real way.
Just out of curiosity, your first language is English, right? How did you first learn to speak? Parents sit you down with a grammar book? :D
 

Talka

Member
Children are capable of rapidly learning languages through osmosis. Adults have a much harder time doing that. That should go without saying.

Short of being dropped into Japan and getting completely immersed, you're probably not going to just "pick up" any Japanese. Once you've reached a certain threshold, I'm sure watching anime could become a helpful vocabulary builder. Until then, it's just far less efficient than any other means of studying.

What I was saying about the anime enthusiasts is that they were always the ones who decided their schedules were becoming too busy, that they should be taking other classes, that it was becoming too time consuming for where they were in their lives... with time it just wasn't "worth it" to the people who were just learning it for anime. The most valuable thing you can have for learning Japanese is persistence and stubbornness. Far too often anime nerds get infatuated with the idea of learning Japanese, and infatuation normally fades with time.

Of course, I'm sure plenty of anime nerds have gone the distance. I just don't think it's particularly common (especially outside of the internet) and that watching anime isn't particularly helpful.
 

RevenantKioku

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The more you do it though, the more familiar you become. The more Japanese I listen to the more it starts to flow naturally. I hear the same thing on the train every time I ride it and I never looked up any of the words or asked someone what they mean but now I can hear them clearly and understand it fully. While sashimirobot is partially right about being in Japan, I think it's more so that you have to be surrounded by Japanese. It's still easy to not learn Japanese here, but it's easier because there is Japanese around you all the time. More you see, read and listen, the better, neh? This should also be obvious.
Now, I still use grammar books, but I use them to clarify things that I hear rather then read them first. It's like how you don't read the dictionary, but rather look up a word you encountered in real world scenarios.
Reactive versus proactive. Proactive language studying can get boring fast.
 

Talka

Member
How are you guys using Anki? For individual words or for entire sentences?

I'd bet that doing entire sentences would be more helpful, but I find that writing out entire sentences (or just saying them outloud) gets really tedious, so I just end up doing individual words.
 

RevenantKioku

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Doing sentences.
Read out Japanese sentence, confirm the reading and check to make sure I have the 'basic' English idea about it and then I write out the sentence. Although I maybe only write out every other one.
I use a version of Genius I changed up myself, which is OS X only software if I want to drill words as it makes me type the answer out.
I say changed up but I only made the font size bigger during the training, haha.
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
上手[じょうず]
If you come to Japan it might just be the word you hear the most.

Okay I have a question instead of a suggestion to shove down throats.
Names. WTF?
How do I learn them decently? Just brute force the fuckers? Where could I get a list of common names and readings?
 

Furoba

Member
RevenantKioku said:
上手[じょうず]
If you come to Japan it might just be the word you hear the most.

Okay I have a question instead of a suggestion to shove down throats.
Names. WTF?
How do I learn them decently? Just brute force the fuckers? Where could I get a list of common names and readings?

Anki has a name list which contains about 1000 names.
 

RevenantKioku

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Furoba said:
Anki has a name list which contains about 1000 names.
Ah cool. Surnames only, but at least it's a start.
 

tnw

Banned
bigmit3737 said:
For those that learned Japanese as their second language, after English, was it hard to stop associating words with Romaji.

It doesn't take long before romaji simply becomes an obstacle. Kanji are your mana of meaning. I hate reading children's picture books and the like that are all in hiragana even, it's so difficult to understand. Trying to read romaji is just as bad.

and as for given names, there is no real good way. It's not really important anyway. You never need to read them anyway. It'll always be Takenaka %&$%suke or whatever until you've just seen/heard certain names enough times. Female given names are usually pretty easy to read though.
 

RevenantKioku

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Eh, it's just annoying. Maybe a good look up site would help? I'm playing Persona 3 right now and it's just annoying because I can't remember anyone's names because I don't KNOW any names.
 
RevenantKioku said:
上手[じょうず]
If you come to Japan it might just be the word you hear the most.
I've noticed that as my Japanese improves, fewer and fewer people come out with the 'Jyouzu' comments. When I first arrived, simply saying 'konnichiwa' to someone would bring forth exulted praise. That's all changed now though, the other day I had a meeting with my accountant, and he was actually complaining about my poor understand of Japanese accounting terms. I've only studied for 9 months and he already expects me to know 'ledger' and 'audit' :lol

Wow, this is exactly what I was looking for. I almost asked a friend to write a small app that had would have similar features, glad I didn't! Anyway, is there any way to have Genius read a txt file? I read the Help and it seems that Genius can read an Excel file, problem is, even though I have a Japanese Mac, my Excel won't accept Japanese characters. I hope this is possible as the Genius input interface is a little cumbersome.
 

tnw

Banned
RevenantKioku said:
Eh, it's just annoying. Maybe a good look up site would help? I'm playing Persona 3 right now and it's just annoying because I can't remember anyone's names because I don't KNOW any names.

let me just say, 8 syllable japanese names are so fugly in English. God they just sound so lame and retarded. Hai guyz, I'm Takeuchi Nobukazu! *barf*
 

RevenantKioku

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marvelharvey said:
Wow, this is exactly what I was looking for. I almost asked a friend to write a small app that had would have similar features, glad I didn't! Anyway, is there any way to have Genius read a txt file? I read the Help and it seems that Genius can read an Excel file, problem is, even though I have a Japanese Mac, my Excel won't accept Japanese characters. I hope this is possible as the Genius input interface is a little cumbersome.
I've been trying to do that but it has not handling Japanese files properly.
...
Actually I just tried saving as Shift-JIS and that worked.

Yeah and the Japanese support in Office is dick balls. "/
 
RevenantKioku said:
I've been trying to do that but it has not handling Japanese files properly.
...
Actually I just tried saving as Shift-JIS and that worked.

Yeah and the Japanese support in Office is dick balls. "/
Cool, I'll give that a go later!
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
There's no real rhyme or reason to shitanamae. I know a lot of family names due to doing the teacher thing for 2 years, but things get a little more difficult when it comes to the given names.

I mean, I'd never guess 舞雪 would be pronounced まゆ.
 
RevenantKioku said:
上手[じょうず]
If you come to Japan it might just be the word you hear the most.

Ahhh Thank you.


Is there a good site, that has English to Japanese dicitionary without the use of Romaji?

Also, Looking for a site with Common phrases and greetings translated without the use of Romaji.

Thank you!
 
So I want to go to Japan and experience it for a little while. This will help me with my Japanese as well.

I am 26, and have a BA in Finance.

Is there any way I can be eligible for some "learning to teach English" program?
 

tnw

Banned
sp0rsk said:
There's no real rhyme or reason to shitanamae. I know a lot of family names due to doing the teacher thing for 2 years, but things get a little more difficult when it comes to the given names.

I mean, I'd never guess 舞雪 would be pronounced まゆ.


see, that one is pretty easy. it follows the normal pronounciation of the kanji the first one is mau, and the second one is yuki.

boys names are the ones that are impossible.
 

RevenantKioku

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I just got Heisig Vol. 3, so doing 965 more kanji will be interesting at least. :D
 

Blackace

if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
tnw said:
see, that one is pretty easy. it follows the normal pronounciation of the kanji the first one is mau, and the second one is yuki.

boys names are the ones that are impossible.

For names the first kanji alone is Mai most times
 

Gantz

Banned
I have been reading and writing Chinese for over 20 years. Will Kanji be easy for me to learn? The Kanji characters pretty much have the same meaning as the original Chinese characters right?
 

scottnak

Member
tnw said:
see, that one is pretty easy. it follows the normal pronounciation of the kanji the first one is mau, and the second one is yuki.

boys names are the ones that are impossible.

Aint that the truth. Have to write out each individual kanji for my name... (仁英) Though I guess mine is a special case. It's a combo of my mom (korean) and my dad's names written in chinese characters. Wouldn't expect that to turn out cleanly right?

Gantz said:
I have been reading and writing Chinese for over 20 years. Will Kanji be easy for me to learn? The Kanji characters pretty much have the same meaning as the original Chinese characters right?
Accordin' to my classmate, it was easier to memorize them... (Easy to put a mental note on it) but for a strict 'translation' (so to speak I guess) it was not as smooth. There are some pretty distinct differences. He says "It's easier, but it gets annoying sometimes"

Though, I think I remember watching some show, some kanjis will look the same but have different meanings. I THINK this was the example: 鮭
It's Salmon! Chinese: Blowfish?
 

Ela Hadrun

Probably plays more games than you
Studying Chinese and Japanese together makes it So. Much. Easier.

At least in my experience. I took two years of Japanese under semi-competent professors, and then when I started taking Chinese with a good professor, both languages skyrocketed. The grammatical structures are completely alien to each other, of course, but I suddenly understood kanji. The grammar was never very hard for me, for some reason, just vocabulary retention.

It's been five years and I've lost most of it. :( Very sad day. Language nerd am cry. If I find I have the time, I may check out some of y'all's recommended tools, because it would feel so good to have that part of my brain up and running again.
 

cvxfreak

Member
marvelharvey said:
Just popping in here to register my complaint towards the absolute mind fuck that is 尊敬語 and 謙譲語. After 9 months of full time studying, nothing has spun my head around as much as that bullshit.

If Japanese was a computer game, I would have thrown the controller against the wall, taken it back to the shop, demanded a refund and then sent hate mail to the developer.

I actually enjoy studying honorifics, mainly because they don't exist in English in the same manner.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
Blackace said:
For names the first kanji alone is Mai most times


Right, it could as well been maiyu, or maiyuki or some other variation.

I think girl names are harder than guy names, just because most boys are named "ryota" anyway hahaha.
 
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