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The Comic Book Start Up Guide (The Big Thread of Comic Q&A)

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Not open for further replies.
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Firemind said:
So The New 52. Where to start? Been out of the loop for a while and this continuity is massive.
Click to expand...

Scott Snyder's Batman
Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman (Vol 1-6)
Jeff Lemire's Green Arrow (Vol 4-6)
Geoff Johns' Aquaman (Vol 1-4) though I hear the writer who took over has done good work afterwards too.
Injustice isn't part of the broader DC continuity, it's just a prequel series to the game. But it is fantastic.



These are all good places to start. I also recommend checking out:

Geoff Johns' Shazam
J.H. Williams' Batwoman (Vol 1-4)
Batman and Robin
Batman Eternal (pretty much a total Bat-family book, which also kicks off Genevieve Valentine's Catwoman run)
Gotham by Midnight



There are a handful of others too, but that top list is where I tell people to jump in.
 
E

Endorphineforeverybody

Member
BKatastrophe said:
I'd recommend Lil' Gotham, but you said without superheroes
Click to expand...

Thanks, will check it out. Maybe there are not so many black and white comics?!

Will have a look on hellboy too, read somewhere it's a darker tone...but also that it is better to stop after x library edition?

And again waiting for Rat Queens, Chew, and east of West volumes. Somebody knows if a new Blacksad is in the making?
 
MilkLizard

MilkLizard

Member
Thanks for this awesome thread. Found some cool stuff in here and currently I'm reading Sandman for the first time. As a fan of Gaimans novels I like this a lot ;)

Endorphineforeverybody said:
Hey Comics GAF, it's me again, last month I said thank you for all recommendations, and now I need some help again. I came to the conclusion I like black and white comics more than colored ones. But I ran out of ideas what to read next. Maybe I just write what I read and what I think about it.

Bone - great adventure, absolutely love it. Imported stupid stupid rat tails from the US also, only for the black and white.

Pogo- great but difficult to understand sometimes (English is not my first language) same problem I had with six gun gorilla, if they don't write the word in full and I can't figure out what it is...stupid me

Calvin and Hobbes - love it and I have to laugh a lot ^_^ just bought the complete two weeks ago, don't want to rush it, just read few pages in bed every night.

King city - great to look at with lot of funny details, bit childish sometimes (poop jokes etc)

Sharaz De - great art

If somebody would have any suggestions, I would be very thankful.

Oh and because usually, the question- with or without superheros, is asked. Without would be better, but honestly, never read a comic with one. Ok, maybe Tony from Chew is considered a superhero than yes ^_~
Click to expand...

I'm pretty new to comics so other people might have better ideas, but maybe check out "Scott Pilgrim" and "Lost at Sea". And then there's always manga.
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
Endorphineforeverybody said:
Thanks, will check it out. Maybe there are not so many black and white comics?!

Will have a look on hellboy too, read somewhere it's a darker tone...but also that it is better to stop after x library edition?

And again waiting for Rat Queens, Chew, and east of West volumes. Somebody knows if a new Blacksad is in the making?
Click to expand...
Hellboy is really good. I've read through 5 Library Editions and I'm still enjoying it.
 
E

Endorphineforeverybody

Member
BKatastrophe said:
Hellboy is really good. I've read through 5 Library Editions and I'm still enjoying it.
Click to expand...

Will give it a try and buy the first one

Nerdsteve said:
I'm pretty new to comics so other people might have better ideas, but maybe check out "Scott Pilgrim" and "Lost at Sea". And then there's always manga.
Click to expand...

Thanks will have a look, just read on amazon it's about teen problems, is it about that? Because maybe I'm little bit to old for that but thanks for the reply anyway ^_~
 
W

whatsinaname

Member
Endorphineforeverybody said:
Thanks, will check it out. Maybe there are not so many black and white comics?!

Will have a look on hellboy too, read somewhere it's a darker tone...but also that it is better to stop after x library edition?

And again waiting for Rat Queens, Chew, and east of West volumes. Somebody knows if a new Blacksad is in the making?
Click to expand...

I replied in the other thread but here are my recs.

whatsinaname said:
Queen & Country (Greg Rucka) - I can definitely recommend this. 32 Issue series about a spy working for MI6.

Whiteout (Greg Rucka) - About a US Marshal working in Antarctica.

Edit: And I think Judge Dredd Casefiles are in B&W also.
Click to expand...
 
P

PsychBat!

Banned
Neol said:
Honestly at this moment I'm really open to anything as long as its engaging and enjoyable to read. Probably gonna try out Marvel Unlimited to get more into the whole universe and maybe follow Spider-Gwen since I like the premise and it being fairly new as well.
Click to expand...

Then I would suggest this reading order:
OMvXvhU.jpg
Click to expand...

There is also a thread dedicated to the series here.
We'll be able to answer any question you have.
 
Falchion

Falchion

Member
This thread is amazing. I'm trying to get into the Marvel universe for the first time and between reading through all of this and poking around the Marvel wiki, I've pieced myself together quite the extensive reading list to start working my way through.

I've got a few questions that I'd love some advice on though:

1) Should I read through all of Cable and Deadpool before I launch myself into Volume 2 and 3?

2) In regards to the Avengers should I just follow this reading order and then read Secret Avengers?

H85SXa7.jpg
 
C

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Some Marvel stuff I'd recommend

- Grant Morrison's New X-Men and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. Both can be read without much prior knowledge, but Whedon's run has some elements from Morrison's. Read Whedon after Morrison for best effect. Remender's Uncanny X-Force is impressive, but doesn't come close to New + Astonishing.
- Garth Ennis' Punisher: MAX. Deeply dark and disturbing, but an absolute must. Read all 10 volumes and From First to Last (collection of one-shots). Ennis also wrote a Marvel Knights run before this, which is pure pulp action comedy and completely different in tone, but also incredible. Welcome Back, Frank is the best Punisher story I've read yet. If you want to read one Punisher arc, make it that one. The rest of his Marvel Knights run is not easy to find in print unfortunately.
- Brian Bendis' Ultimate Spider-man: the only long Spidey run I've read, and I don't feel the need for more. It's good all the way through, but it peaks in the early volumes.
- Daredevil: Miller's Man Without Fear => regular run => Born Again. Then move on to Bendis' fantastic run. Can't comment on Brubaker and Waid's runs yet, but I hear they're also great. Don't think anyone has mentioned Daredevil: Yellow yet, a look at the early years of Murdock with great Tim Sale art.
- Warren Ellis' Iron Man: Extremis feels like the essence of the character in one story arc. I've re-read this over and over, Granov's art is a treat. It's standalone, it's short, read it.
- For Thor I'm a big fan of J. Michael Straczynski's run. It's colleced in one omnibus. It's not finished when he leaves though, so continue with Giellon's issues after. I read JMS after finishing the gigantic Simonson omnibus, and honestly enjoyed JMS' run even more. Coipel's art helps.
- Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four is a mind-bending sci-fi epic. One of the best long Marvel runs I've read. Couldn't have asked for a better introduction to FF, and I'm now a huge fan of Hickman. Manhattan Projects and his Avengers stuff are on the pile.

For DC I just want to mention the best Superman stories, since there's more than enough Batman:

All Star Superman
A Superman for all Seasons
Superman: Red Son
Superman: Secret Identity

All these made me a big fan of the character.
 
H

hamchan

Member
I'd recommend X-Factor Investigations for people too. To me, it's the series that can most easily be taken and turned into a TV show that feels like Buffy or Angel. A few of the characters have back stories from previous comics but it's not hard to figure out. I do recommend knowing a bit of X-men and knowing what happens in the major Marvel events, since those do disrupt the story.
 
E

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
I wasn't feeling New 52 Justice League until the Throne of Atlantis arc, this shit needs to be adapted ASAP (and yes I know there's an animated movie, I mean live-action). Orm looks super badass in this arc.

Still hate the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, yuck, just terrible.
 
Vampire On Titus

Vampire On Titus

Member
Endorphineforeverybody said:
Hey Comics GAF, it's me again, last month I said thank you for all recommendations, and now I need some help again. I came to the conclusion I like black and white comics more than colored ones. But I ran out of ideas what to read next. Maybe I just write what I read and what I think about it.

Bone - great adventure, absolutely love it. Imported stupid stupid rat tails from the US also, only for the black and white.

Pogo- great but difficult to understand sometimes (English is not my first language) same problem I had with six gun gorilla, if they don't write the word in full and I can't figure out what it is...stupid me

Calvin and Hobbes - love it and I have to laugh a lot ^_^ just bought the complete two weeks ago, don't want to rush it, just read few pages in bed every night.

King city - great to look at with lot of funny details, bit childish sometimes (poop jokes etc)

Sharaz De - great art

If somebody would have any suggestions, I would be very thankful.

Oh and because usually, the question- with or without superheros, is asked. Without would be better, but honestly, never read a comic with one. Ok, maybe Tony from Chew is considered a superhero than yes ^_~
Click to expand...

Lol seems like a bit of an odd distinction to make but aight.

Ill start by recommending Octopus Pie by Meredith Gran again. Its awesome and on the internet and free. The latest chapter is in color now but theres years of B&W to read through.

Other cool black and white comics: Maus by Art Spiegelman, Fun Home A Family Tragicomic by Alison Bechdel, Nil: A Land Beyond Belief by James Turner, Wet Moon by Sophie Campbell, David Boring by Daniel Clowes, Serenity Rose by Aaron Alexovich, Ghost World by Daniel Clowes, Blankets by Craig Thompson, This One Summer by Mariko & Jilian Tamaki and Black Hole by Charles Burns

Theres a bunch of titles from a bunch of different creators in all sorts of genres and styles. At least one of them should seem cool to you.
 
E

Endorphineforeverybody

Member
EchosMyron1 said:
Lol seems like a bit of an odd distinction to make but aight.

Ill start by recommending Octopus Pie by Meredith Gran again. Its awesome and on the internet and free. The latest chapter is in color now but theres years of B&W to read through.

Other cool black and white comics: Maus by Art Spiegelman, Fun Home A Family Tragicomic by Alison Bechdel, Nil: A Land Beyond Belief by James Turner, Wet Moon by Sophie Campbell, David Boring by Daniel Clowes, Serenity Rose by Aaron Alexovich, Ghost World by Daniel Clowes, Blankets by Craig Thompson, This One Summer by Mariko & Jilian Tamaki and Black Hole by Charles Burns

Theres a bunch of titles from a bunch of different creators in all sorts of genres and styles. At least one of them should seem cool to you.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I just wanted to distinct it to b&w, because I was curious what is out there, and where better ask than on GAF. And I think that little details of the drawing are better visible in B&W.

Will go with Nil: A Land Beyond Belief... Reminds me of Blob somehow.
 
T

Tyrant Rave

Banned
Neol said:
Hi ComicGAF!

Interested in delving into comics after reading Saga which is absolutely fantastic. With all the buzz with the movies I'm interested in reading into an Avengers storyline. A friend of mine told me to start with The Ultimates 1 & 2 by Millar and then going into Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers line. Would like to ask if this sounds good for me?
Click to expand...

You could do either of those. I'd also recommend Avengers by Kurt Busiek if you're looking for some classic stuff. It's great from what I've read. It contains what many consider to be the definitive Ultron arc if you enjoyed him in the movie.

Uncanny Avengers is another fun modern book. I'd say read Uncanny X-Force first but I'm not sure if you want to read any X-books right now at least.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Probably already answered somewhere but I didn't see it in my super quick glance over.. any prep reading to provide context for Secret Wars or could I just jump in?
 
D

Dalek

Member
What time does Marvel update their digital app with new releases for sale? I want to buy Secret Wars as soon as possible.
 
C

Cryxo93

Banned
Went to Comic Con in London the other day and managed to get my mitts on a bunch of stuff. Pretty pleased with my haul.
OY9Piyn.jpg


Since reading through this thread a month ago I've rediscovered my love for the visual storytelling medium. I study Contemporary Fine Art and at one point I kind got this idea that that was the height of all artistic mediums and I shouldn't spend my time on anything other than it. I've come out of that delusion thank god. I'd forgotten how good comics/graphic novels were. I used to read a bunch of Bande Déssine as a kid in France, and then as a teen the greats such as Maus and Alan Moore's stuff. After things like Watchmen, V for Vendetta or Kirkman's Walking Dead I thought there wasn't really anything else worth reading.

Subscribed to Marvel Unlimited a month ago and since then I've read a bunch of Daredevil, Matt Fraction's Hawkeye (which is fantastic) and the current Ms. Marvel. Despite these runs I have to say that I don't much interest in the Marvel stuff as most of their catalogue is horrendously convoluted and I'd rather not have to read 500 issues to be up on why and what is going on. Image is where it seems to be at. Self contained, new and interesting IPs etc... If only they had a similar subscription model to Marvel. Anywho, comics are fucking brilliant! Thanks for reminding me so (I had also forgotten about some Manga greats too; Akira, 20th Century Boys, Monster etc... been reading a bunch of stuff on my iPad, simply perfection!).
 
C

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Cryxo93 said:
Despite these runs I have to say that I don't much interest in the Marvel stuff as most of their catalogue is horrendously convoluted and I'd rather not have to read 500 issues to be up on why and what is going on.
Click to expand...

There a lot of Marvel books that are pretty self-contained and don't require much or any prior knowledge. Ennis' Punisher MAX, Ultimate Spider-man, Morrison's New X-Men, Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, Bendis Daredevil, Ultimates 1+2, Runaways.

Haven't read it yet but I hear Aaron's Thor: God of Thunder also falls into this category, same with Brubaker's Captain America.

Some excellent books you got there. You're gonna want those other YTLM volumes, for me it's the most addictive series I've read. You'll burn through the issues in no time.
 
B

blackflag

Member
Cryxo93 said:
Went to Comic Con in London the other day and managed to get my mitts on a bunch of stuff. Pretty pleased with my haul.
OY9Piyn.jpg


Since reading through this thread a month ago I've rediscovered my love for the visual storytelling medium. I study Contemporary Fine Art and at one point I kind got this idea that that was the height of all artistic mediums and I shouldn't spend my time on anything other than it. I've come out of that delusion thank god. I'd forgotten how good comics/graphic novels were. I used to read a bunch of Bande Déssine as a kid in France, and then as a teen the greats such as Maus and Alan Moore's stuff. After things like Watchmen, V for Vendetta or Kirkman's Walking Dead I thought there wasn't really anything else worth reading.

Subscribed to Marvel Unlimited a month ago and since then I've read a bunch of Daredevil, Matt Fraction's Hawkeye (which is fantastic) and the current Ms. Marvel. Despite these runs I have to say that I don't much interest in the Marvel stuff as most of their catalogue is horrendously convoluted and I'd rather not have to read 500 issues to be up on why and what is going on. Image is where it seems to be at. Self contained, new and interesting IPs etc... If only they had a similar subscription model to Marvel. Anywho, comics are fucking brilliant! Thanks for reminding me so (I had also forgotten about some Manga greats too; Akira, 20th Century Boys, Monster etc... been reading a bunch of stuff on my iPad, simply perfection!).
Click to expand...

Is outcast good? I've read the rest of those but not that one. I prefer non superhero comics.
 
C

Cryxo93

Banned
blackflag said:
Is outcast good? I've read the rest of those but not that one. I prefer non superhero comics.
Click to expand...

Very, very good. I've read both Walking Dead compendiums and I felt that this had a lot more substance. As great as the WD is it doesn't seem to great on character development. Outcast is a great follow up from Kirkman. I guess what does it for me is the ambiguity of whether the people who become possessed are for real (although it does seem like Kirkman is going down a theological road here; Catholicism seems to be a true reality in Outcast).
It's a compelling read so far with the first volume and the art is fantastic. Gives me David Aja vibes with his work on the most recent Hawkeye, the art and the panels are really well done. I would say it's definitely worth it if you like Kirkman.

Image-232.jpg
 
D

Dalek

Member
I love Outcast. Highly recommended. However it's one of those books that reads best in collected because by the time a new issue comes out I've forgotten what happened last month.
 
M

Martal

Neo Member
Comics :
Hey guys, wanted to share a couple of things. I theoretically love comics. I look at that picture a few posts back and I think it looks awesome. It's a a haul I'd love to come home with. The only problem - it seems I don't actually like reading comics (or graphic novels).

I just picked up All-Star Superman, seeing as it came highly recommended. And its just SOO crazy I can't take it seriously. Everything is explained using some sort of alien technology and/or super-intellect.
Is there anything out there that is more grounded? I've tried reading Watchmen, but I know the plot so that's one less hook.
 
S

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
Martal said:
Comics :
Hey guys, wanted to share a couple of things. I theoretically love comics. I look at that picture a few posts back and I think it looks awesome. It's a a haul I'd love to come home with. The only problem - it seems I don't actually like reading comics (or graphic novels).

I just picked up All-Star Superman, seeing as it came highly recommended. And its just SOO crazy I can't take it seriously. Everything is explained using some sort of alien technology and/or super-intellect.
Is there anything out there that is more grounded? I've tried reading Watchmen, but I know the plot so that's one less hook.
Click to expand...

Try Punisher Max by Garth Ennis.
 
M

my name is ed

Banned
Martal said:
Comics :
Hey guys, wanted to share a couple of things. I theoretically love comics. I look at that picture a few posts back and I think it looks awesome. It's a a haul I'd love to come home with. The only problem - it seems I don't actually like reading comics (or graphic novels).

I just picked up All-Star Superman, seeing as it came highly recommended. And its just SOO crazy I can't take it seriously. Everything is explained using some sort of alien technology and/or super-intellect.
Is there anything out there that is more grounded? I've tried reading Watchmen, but I know the plot so that's one less hook.
Click to expand...

What kind of grounded work are you looking for? Superheroes or something else?

For highly regarded grounded gritty superhero comics I recommend reading Daredevil
Read the Frank Miller, Bendis and Brubaker runs on the character.
 
C

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Martal said:
Comics :
Hey guys, wanted to share a couple of things. I theoretically love comics. I look at that picture a few posts back and I think it looks awesome. It's a a haul I'd love to come home with. The only problem - it seems I don't actually like reading comics (or graphic novels).

I just picked up All-Star Superman, seeing as it came highly recommended. And its just SOO crazy I can't take it seriously. Everything is explained using some sort of alien technology and/or super-intellect.
Is there anything out there that is more grounded? I've tried reading Watchmen, but I know the plot so that's one less hook.
Click to expand...

Just a few suggestions:

- Punisher MAX is a good tip, also because it has one story per trade. Some story elements carry over, but each book has a full arc.
- Y The Last Man. Warning: highly addictive
- 100 Bullets
- Preacher. It has some supernatural elements, but hopefully nothing too crazy for you. Try it out, because Preacher's one of the best series you can read.
- Southern Bastards. Also Scalped by the same author (Jason Aaron)
- You might want to look into most of Ed Brubaker's stuff: Criminal, Gotham Central, Velvet, Fade-out, etc. He has written a lot, and most of it is exactly what you're looking for.
 
J

JZA

Member
Anybody else here listen to comics podcasts that correspond to the titles they're reading? I've been using Podcruncher and compiling playlists of episodes that correspond to comics I've read/am reading, and on my commute I listen to any podcast episodes where they discuss these titles. I'd suggest View from the Gutters and J. David Weter's podcasts to start. I was curious if anybody else had any other podcast suggestions.
 
M

Martal

Neo Member
my name is ed said:
What kind of grounded work are you looking for? Superheroes or something else?

For highly regarded grounded gritty superhero comics I recommend reading Daredevil
Read the Frank Miller, Bendis and Brubaker runs on the character.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the numerous replies!

When I say ground, then I guess I mean something along the lines of the modern superhero movies. The thing that irked me with Superman is that there are about 5 million different characters who all have crazy powers and crazy stuff like giants made of liquid nitrogen and kryptonite guns and the like is the norm.

I hear Batman Year One is pretty good and it sounds like something I'd like.

also, I'll try and check out Daredevil!
 
H

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Creamium said:
Some Marvel stuff I'd recommend

- Grant Morrison's New X-Men and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. Both can be read without much prior knowledge, but Whedon's run has some elements from Morrison's. Read Whedon after Morrison for best effect. Remender's Uncanny X-Force is impressive, but doesn't come close to New + Astonishing.
- Garth Ennis' Punisher: MAX. Deeply dark and disturbing, but an absolute must. Read all 10 volumes and From First to Last (collection of one-shots). Ennis also wrote a Marvel Knights run before this, which is pure pulp action comedy and completely different in tone, but also incredible. Welcome Back, Frank is the best Punisher story I've read yet. If you want to read one Punisher arc, make it that one. The rest of his Marvel Knights run is not easy to find in print unfortunately.
- Brian Bendis' Ultimate Spider-man: the only long Spidey run I've read, and I don't feel the need for more. It's good all the way through, but it peaks in the early volumes.
- Daredevil: Miller's Man Without Fear => regular run => Born Again. Then move on to Bendis' fantastic run. Can't comment on Brubaker and Waid's runs yet, but I hear they're also great. Don't think anyone has mentioned Daredevil: Yellow yet, a look at the early years of Murdock with great Tim Sale art.
- Warren Ellis' Iron Man: Extremis feels like the essence of the character in one story arc. I've re-read this over and over, Granov's art is a treat. It's standalone, it's short, read it.
- For Thor I'm a big fan of J. Michael Straczynski's run. It's colleced in one omnibus. It's not finished when he leaves though, so continue with Giellon's issues after. I read JMS after finishing the gigantic Simonson omnibus, and honestly enjoyed JMS' run even more. Coipel's art helps.
- Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four is a mind-bending sci-fi epic. One of the best long Marvel runs I've read. Couldn't have asked for a better introduction to FF, and I'm now a huge fan of Hickman. Manhattan Projects and his Avengers stuff are on the pile.

For DC I just want to mention the best Superman stories, since there's more than enough Batman:

All Star Superman
A Superman for all Seasons
Superman: Red Son
Superman: Secret Identity

All these made me a big fan of the character.
Click to expand...

Such good suggestions.
 
Icefire1424

Icefire1424

Member
Creamium said:
- Garth Ennis' Punisher: MAX. Deeply dark and disturbing, but an absolute must. Read all 10 volumes and From First to Last (collection of one-shots). Ennis also wrote a Marvel Knights run before this, which is pure pulp action comedy and completely different in tone, but also incredible. Welcome Back, Frank is the best Punisher story I've read yet. If you want to read one Punisher arc, make it that one. The rest of his Marvel Knights run is not easy to find in print unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Glad you brought this up. I've wanted to read through this series forever, but finding the full run of Volumes 1-10 of the TP is painful. I have Vol. 1 and looks like 2-4 are pretty easy to find, but for whatever reason Volumes 5 and 6 are crazy expensive.

That, and unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe there is an omnibus out for the MAX run? Any thoughts?
 
M

MikeDip

God bless all my old friends/And god bless me too, why pretend?
I can not decide on what Flash tpb/collections/etc to get. Someone help I want to read this guy.

Specifically: The parts where they try to be more sciency about it. Maybe some time travel. I know speedforce etc but which are the ones that still have that and yet still sound techy enough to almost make sense?
 
C

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Icefire1424 said:
Glad you brought this up. I've wanted to read through this series forever, but finding the full run of Volumes 1-10 of the TP is painful. I have Vol. 1 and looks like 2-4 are pretty easy to find, but for whatever reason Volumes 5 and 6 are crazy expensive.

That, and unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe there is an omnibus out for the MAX run? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

No omnibus, no Marvel U. Trades are the best option. That or comixology (Punisher '04-'09). If you can't find some of the volumes at a reasonable price, check out Ebay if anyone's put up 1-10 in bulk. I found 1-10 at a decent price, from one seller.

tbh Ennis' Marvel Knights is even worse... It's easy to find Welcome Back Frank, but the other volumes of this run are very much out of print, and you have find used copies. There was an omnibus for this run, but if you can find it on Ebay, it's at an obscene price. This is also up on comixology though. Punisher '00-'01 for Welcome Back Frank, Punisher '01-'03 for the other Marvel Knights stuff.

They really need to reprint Ennis' 2 Punisher runs.
 
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