Just a nitpick, but the Nazis didn't classify or target the Jews on religious grounds at all (Why would they? Nazism is a generally anti-religious ideology). They targeted them on racial grounds (even Catholics/Protestant with Jewish parents were targeted) and with a great deal more vigour than other groups.
People focus on the Holocaust because it wasn't perpetrated by some backwards, poor, developing country on the periphery in Central Asia or Africa with an illiteracy rate touching 90%. It was perpetrated by the goddamn Germans, at the time one of the richest, most industrialised and culturally sophisticated countries in Europe.
Not only were these crimes being systematically committed on an unprecedented scale, they were being committed right under the noses of a populace that by-and-large did not approve of the killings. It took a very committed and indoctrinated Nazi to engage in these sorts of activities in the first place and the majority of Germans baulked at the very idea (this was confirmed by Gestapo and SS reports on the political mood in Germany), so these things were done in a clandestine way.
The thing is that because of the scale of state-sponsored slavery and murder, the German people knew what was going on. There was no way they couldn't. Rumours leaked back from the front and from the camps from the very beginning and by the end of the War, very few had any illusions of where the trainloads of Jews were going. Still, the German people did nothing to stop them. No uprisings. No mass protests. It was easier to keep their heads down in case the Gestapo decided to send them to a concentration camp themselves as asocials or political criminals.
This was evil on a grand scale. 25 million Russians dying at the hands of German armies (which was more due to grossly incompetent Russian generals sending green Russian soldiers off at the German lines in waves of suicidal frontal attacks instead of using actual tactics than German fighting effectiveness, by the way) and millions of other soldiers dying in battle doesn't have quite the same effect. Like it or not, we feel we understand their deaths on some level. There was no maliciousness or hatred between the individual soldiers at the very root of it - it was politics, same as it always has been.
The systematic plunder, exploitation and murder of millions of unarmed and undefended civilians, on the other hand, takes a very different type of aggression - the sadistic kind.
Yes, other genocides have happened since then (Kosovo, Darfur, Sudan, Cambodia etc.), but nothing on that kind of scale, with that kind of organisation or with the same meticulous, deliberate, efficient nature to it. What's more, the other genocides didn't happen in rich, modern countries. There's a bit of elitism at play here, but that's the truth of it - developed countries are held up as examples for other countries to follow.
I recommmend that anyone who is amazed by the efficiency and inhumanity evident in the Holocaust read "Eichmann in Jerusalem."
Amazing book about one of the principal architects of the whole operation. I have to head off to work in literally one minute, so I can't go into greater detail, but look up the book on amazon or something.
Seriously, my Portuguese neighbor, who seems to be a pretty decent person otherwise, has real, real hatred for gypsies. (Anecdotal evidence, ahoy! Er, rather, has been presented?) I'm not surprised, looking back, that the Allies didn't find a homeland (in India, as I remember) for the Romani, too.
Before I start, and before people start jumping to conclusions (gaffers LOVE to do that) I want to say that I am not talking about the actual racism. I am talking about the Slavery in America Industry, which is definitely worth billions of dollars. People are making money off of this tragedy now more than ever and there is no sign of slowing down. The survivors and dead are being used as mere puppets to generate profit and serve particular agendas.
What happened to the blacks was terrible and should never happen again to anyone. But, I am simply sick and tired of people shoving Slavery in America down my throat, as if it was some kind of commodity or a franchise with a catchy slogan "BLACK HISTORY MONTH".
Every week, people are reminded one way or another of Slavery in America. You should never ever forget it and if you do, BLACK HISTORY MONTH is used to remind you again or we will just call you a racist, even though blacks are not to only people to have ever been enslaved.
Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??
It has been almost 150 years and White America is still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)
Why can't we just reflect on this tragedy and move on?? Do we really need to keep spending money on new museums and memorials in every city in America, while ignoring other tragedies?? ! Dead U.S. civilians and soldiers don't even get the same treatment!! I am fine
This really has to stop.,NAACP and other agencies are keeping this industry alive because it works well for them and it fits their agenda. It gives them a green card to do what they please in America and at the same time make and the rest of the world feel guilty about what happened about 150 years ago.
Black History Month
Before anyone gets carried away, I am not comparing the two things, I am just showing how ridiculous some of his assertions are
Seriously, my Portuguese neighbor, who seems to be a pretty decent person otherwise, has real, real hatred for gypsies. (Anecdotal evidence, ahoy! Er, rather, has been presented?) I'm not surprised, looking back, that the Allies didn't find a homeland (in India, as I remember) for the Romani, too.
Would they have wanted to go, honestly? The Romani never had as cohesive a national identity as the Jews did and certainly not one tied to any one region, site or location. Their way of life and traditional economic livelihood depends on being nomadic.
Gathering from the footage I've seen in history class. The holocaust was beyond imagination, shit was a straight nightmare. And the people who did those horrible atrocities are straight up demons and not human beings. I wish America had intervened earlier, so many lives could have been saved. But it looks to me like they didn't really care until the fight came to their doorstep ( or they realized how powerful the Reich was getting).
The holocaust should never ever be forgotten.
But, we should also hold memorials for the 1,000,000 that died in Rwanda in systematic slaughter just 16 years ago. Because that was just as repulsive. Or the other countless genocides going on in Africa right now, as we speak. ( this is Africa though, so we shouldn't expect anyone to actually care enough). We should also hold memorials for the millions of native Americans who've been pillaged and slaughtered. We should hold all genocides in remembrance, because they are telling of what kind of creatures human beings can turn into.
They should call it The Holocaust of WWII ( and not merely The Holocaust, because there have been many and many others will probably follow).
*this gets me thinking about the footage of the holocaust of WWII*
This is really the best way to go about this. I agree, there are so many tragedies that have gone on, or are still going on today that are completely ignored. These issues should be brought up. People Have to become more aware. But when someone attempts to use other tragedies as an excuse as to why they believe we should diminish awareness of the Holocaust, that just does not sit right with me.
Before I start, and before people start jumping to conclusions (gaffers LOVE to do that) I want to say that I am not talking about the actual racism. I am talking about the Slavery in America Industry, which is definitely worth billions of dollars. People are making money off of this tragedy now more than ever and there is no sign of slowing down. The survivors and dead are being used as mere puppets to generate profit and serve particular agendas.
What happened to the blacks was terrible and should never happen again to anyone. But, I am simply sick and tired of people shoving Slavery in America down my throat, as if it was some kind of commodity or a franchise with a catchy slogan "BLACK HISTORY MONTH".
Every week, people are reminded one way or another of Slavery in America. You should never ever forget it and if you do, BLACK HISTORY MONTH is used to remind you again or we will just call you a racist, even though blacks are not to only people to have ever been enslaved.
Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??
It has been almost 150 years and White America is still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)
Why can't we just reflect on this tragedy and move on?? Do we really need to keep spending money on new museums and memorials in every city in America, while ignoring other tragedies?? ! Dead U.S. civilians and soldiers don't even get the same treatment!! I am fine
This really has to stop.,NAACP and other agencies are keeping this industry alive because it works well for them and it fits their agenda. It gives them a green card to do what they please in America and at the same time make and the rest of the world feel guilty about what happened about 150 years ago.
This is really the best way to go about this. I agree, there are so many tragedies that have gone on, or are still going on today that are completely ignored. These issues should be brought up. People Have to become more aware.But when someone attempts to use other tragedies as an excuse as to why they believe we should diminish awareness of the Holocaust, that just does not sit right with me.
One time in a poli-sci discussion section, I tried to say something along these lines. I said something about how the Holocaust wasn't that unique, and about how the genocide in Cambodia killed a much larger percentage of the population, and that massive numbers of people died under Mao and Stalin.
I got pretty much reamed. I think the words came out wrong; I can't remember exactly what I said. But you have to choose your words extremely carefully if you want to go down that road.
The problem with that train of thought is that it appears to downplay the Holocaust even if that was not your intention. As if to say "Why do we give such a shit about the Holocaust when this and that happened and they were equally as bad?" Much as the OP did when comparing peoples ignoring of the dilemma in various African nations. A better way to go is to say, "We need to look at things like the Holocaust to realize how embarrassing and sad our inaction in places like Africa are." Or on the otherhand, "Lets also look at what dictators like Mao and Stalin were responsible for and learn how to avoid that from occuring again." Again I am sure that was not your intention, but unless you word it quite well, that is what people will hear. The Holocaust has the unique status of being quite modern, but also involving pretty much the entirety of the Western world at one level or another, and that makes it more marketable as a lesson to most of the world. I do not think it should be undermined just because it is the best marketed atrocity in modern history.
So the holecaust is obviously going to have a larger impact since it was part of that culture. I mean japan probably focuses a significant amount of time on the nanjing masacre instead of the holecaust.
you know people will forget ... jewish suffering was bad but its also been a constant issue because the holocaust was instigated by hitler, you know, most famous evil guy of last century... and its in frequent usage because of its cause of creating israel
but these thing will pass, one of my old neighbours was a holocaust survivor, he passed away about 10 years ago from cancer i think... but from what i can tell world war 2 holds alot less significance for the younger generation than it did for us (born in the 80's), probably because the cold war was still going, and affect of ww2 and our grandparents served in ww2
im a teacher now and kids dunno shit about ww2 and you cant blame them its going on to 70 years since it happened with fewer and fewer people around with direct links to these events
Before I start, and before people start jumping to conclusions (gaffers LOVE to do that) I want to say that I am not talking about the actual racism. I am talking about the Slavery in America Industry, which is definitely worth billions of dollars. People are making money off of this tragedy now more than ever and there is no sign of slowing down. The survivors and dead are being used as mere puppets to generate profit and serve particular agendas.
What happened to the blacks was terrible and should never happen again to anyone. But, I am simply sick and tired of people shoving Slavery in America down my throat, as if it was some kind of commodity or a franchise with a catchy slogan "BLACK HISTORY MONTH".
Every week, people are reminded one way or another of Slavery in America. You should never ever forget it and if you do, BLACK HISTORY MONTH is used to remind you again or we will just call you a racist, even though blacks are not to only people to have ever been enslaved.
Millions of people die in Africa from civil war and diseases, but no one cares!! Millions of civilians in WWII were also killed by the Nazis and others, but they are never remembered. Why??
It has been almost 150 years and White America is still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)
Why can't we just reflect on this tragedy and move on?? Do we really need to keep spending money on new museums and memorials in every city in America, while ignoring other tragedies?? ! Dead U.S. civilians and soldiers don't even get the same treatment!! I am fine
This really has to stop.,NAACP and other agencies are keeping this industry alive because it works well for them and it fits their agenda. It gives them a green card to do what they please in America and at the same time make and the rest of the world feel guilty about what happened about 150 years ago.
Black History Month
Before anyone gets carried away, I am not comparing the two things, I am just showing how ridiculous some of his assertions are
I perhaps should have taken more time in writing my OP, I wrote in less than two minutes. The point of this thread wasn't that we should forget about the holocaust. It was about how people have been profiting off of it and using for their own political agendas. I really didn't do a good job with the OP, now that I read it again. :lol
I perhaps should have taken more time in writing my OP, I wrote in less than two minutes. The point of this thread wasn't that we should forget about the holocaust. It was about how people have been profiting off of it and using for their own political agendas. I really didn't do a good job with the OP, now that I read it again. :lol
I am still waiting for you in your own words to describe in what manner people profit from the Holocaust. Are you speaking in financial terms? Political? Economical? Diplomatic? What?
you know people will forget ... jewish suffering was bad but its also been a constant issue because the holocaust was instigated by hitler, you know, most famous evil guy of last century... and its in frequent usage because of its cause of creating israel
but these thing will pass, one of my old neighbours was a holocaust survivor, he passed away about 10 years ago from cancer i think... but from what i can tell world war 2 holds alot less significance for the younger generation than it did for us (born in the 80's), probably because the cold war was still going, and affect of ww2 and our grandparents served in ww2
im a teacher now and kids dunno shit about ww2 and you cant blame them its going on to 70 years since it happened with fewer and fewer people around with direct links to these events
Part of the problem is most history classes do not get halfway through the history books they are teaching. I swear by the time I graduated highschool I could name a couple of dozen Native American tribes, the locations they lived, a ton about the Civil War and Texas History up until the Civil War, a ton about our founding fathers and various wars with Britain, and that was about it. I knew more about Teddy Roosevelt then Theodore Roosevelt. Hell I knew more about Sam Houston then both of them. Maybe that is just a Texas thing though. I was born in 80, so this is not a modern phenomenon.
Actually my problem isn't that there is too much exposure for the Holocaust it's that there isn't enough for other humanitarian catastrophies. Only through history humanity will learn some valuable lessons.
i_am_ben said:
pretty much this although I'm far more critical of the German populace.
You shouldn't. Modern western populace is just as retarded and gullible as Germans were, it just that they haven't got a homicidal lunatic in charge or -to be more precise- the corporate interests don't want that kind of man in change anymore. The raise of fascist parties in the "cultured" Europe, the demonization of muslims and immigrants in the West and the constant depredation of our rights and democracies through fearmongering and lies proves that humanity hasn't learned shit.
If the corporate media promoted a lunatic like Hitler in any western country today, it wouldn't surprise me the least if the retards elected him.
It's true, there is a little too much remembering of the holocaust. This jewish girl in my world history class was like 'I'm so SICK of studying the holocaust in every single class. Can we please devote less time to it?'
I mean they call the history channel the Hitler Channel, because the only history shows that people care about are related to the nazis. I find it depressing as there is a lot of other worthwhile history to talk about, but the only thing that will get enough ratings to keep advertisers happy is WWII nazi stuff.
I agree with you. People shouldn't stop learning about the holocaust, but it was one of many atrocities in history, and it shouldn't be given such a disproportionate amount of time devoted to it.
People do profit from the holocaust. So many movies made about it over the last 70 or so years, etc.
The nazis and WWII is like the Victorian age for the British. They can think back to a time when it was a golden age for their country. Hitler was entirely wrong and America did everything right in response and won a good war with no grey area.
It's true, there is a little too much remembering of the holocaust. This jewish girl in my world history class was like 'I'm so SICK of studying the holocaust in every single class. Can we please devote less time to it?'
I mean they call the history channel the Hitler Channel, because the only history shows that people care about are related to the nazis. I find it depressing as there is a lot of other worthwhile history to talk about, but the only thing that will get enough ratings to keep advertisers happy is WWII nazi stuff.
I agree with you. People shouldn't stop learning about the holocaust, but it was one of many atrocities in history, and it shouldn't be given such a disproportionate amount of time devoted to it.
People do profit from the holocaust. So many movies made about it over the last 70 or so years, etc.
The nazis and WWII is like the Victorian age for the British. They can think back to a time when it was a golden age for their country. Hitler was entirely wrong and America did everything right in response and won a good war with no grey area.
It's true, there is a little too much remembering of the holocaust. This jewish girl in my world history class was like 'I'm so SICK of studying the holocaust in every single class. Can we please devote less time to it?'
I mean they call the history channel the Hitler Channel, because the only history shows that people care about are related to the nazis. I find it depressing as there is a lot of other worthwhile history to talk about, but the only thing that will get enough ratings to keep advertisers happy is WWII nazi stuff.
I agree with you. People shouldn't stop learning about the holocaust, but it was one of many atrocities in history, and it shouldn't be given such a disproportionate amount of time devoted to it.
The nazis and WWII is like the Victorian age for the British. They can think back to a time when it was a golden age for their country. Hitler was entirely wrong and America did everything right in response and won a good war with no grey area.
I am still waiting for you in your own words to describe in what manner people profit from the Holocaust. Are you speaking in financial terms? Political? Economical? Diplomatic? What?
Sounds to me that he's sick of Israel claiming some sort of moral high ground because of it. It makes criticism of Israel somewhat tricky if you don't want to be accused of racism or neo-nazism. Given his apparently muslim background, he probably already has strong cultural pressures biasing him against Israel, so to be considered a bad person for what he believes to be his own rational, natural and just beliefs probably gets irksome after a while.
I imagine when he's watching the news and sees an image of the holocaust he gets an itch in his pants and is all like "OH GEEZ WE GET IT, ALRIGHT? 6 MILLION PEOPLE BLAH BLAH BLAH! WHAT ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS HUH?" and throws some popcorn at the screen or something.
I get where he's coming from, but annoyance at the state of political discourse isn't enough reason to diminish awareness of the Holocaust in the collective memory of the West.
The systematic killing of people because of the faith they subscribed to (ie. the Jewish holocaust) should never be forgotten. In fact, if holocaust memorial museums help keep awareness high, I say let them build more.
However, the holocaust should not be used an excuse to kill and suppress people, and it should not be used as a shield for criticism by guilt tripping the criticizers. It should also not be used to drum up support for war against countries not on friendly terms with Israel.
that the impact of the holocaust is being lessened. Netanyahu throws the word around like it's no one's business.
Honestly, does anyone here think that Ahmedinejad is as bad as Hitler or that Iran is the modern day equivalent of Nazi Germany? If so, then you're putting Nazi Germany in a far more positive light than they deserve to be.
Ridiculous. GAF is a lot or pro things but I notice Israel and religion get a lot of shit around here with no fallout even with antisemitic crap like this. Yes that's what it is. If this was a thread with the same tone on gays or blacks telling them to move on from some issue this guy would be gone.
And you really want people to move on from something like that? There people still living that escaped the Holocaust. And you mentioning whats going on in Africa is precisely why we should not move on from informing people about what happened. Moreover Israel is one of the most vocal countries on the genocides that have taken place in Africa.
There is nothing Anti-Semetic about what the OP has said. Israel uses the Holocaust at every opportunity to justify their own wholesale slaughter.
Just using the arguement you use is anti-freedome. OP said nothing offensive, just expressed a view. Millions have died since and no gives a shit. Because their deaths don't generate cash!
I think you're full of shit because you compared Ahmedinejad to Hitler. You're saying that Iran, an Islamic country, is worse than Nazi Germany, which caused the deaths of millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, Russians and other Europeans. Until they commit similar genocides, don't even think about comparing them.
Reading comprehension much? He was saying just the OPPOSITE of what you are accusing him of saying. He is stating that a comparison is ridiculous and such a comparison lessens the evil that was Hitler since Iran isn't as bad as Germany, nor Ahmedinejad as evil as Hitler.
I think you're full of shit because you compared Ahmedinejad to Hitler. You're saying that Iran, an Islamic country, is worse than Nazi Germany, which caused the deaths of millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, Russians and other Europeans. Until they commit similar genocides, don't even think about comparing them.
You're reading that wrong. He's saying that by comparing Iran to Nazi Germany, it makes the Nazi's seem less evil than they were, since Iran is nowhere near as bad as Nazi Germany.
He's an idiot because he lost tenure at depau university for basically claiming every other author that wrote about the holecaust was a liar and had no evidence to back it up thus losing any academic merit and now goes through student runned muslim clubs to give his message to the public.
He was disagreeing with what Israel does and how some Jews use the Holocaust as means for profit and justifying the murder and oppression of Palestinians. So those people had to pull some strings to deny him tenure and vilify him.
Muslim runned clubs? I haven't seen one video of his in any muslim runned clubs.
Reading comprehension much? He was saying just the OPPOSITE of what you are accusing him of saying. He is stating that a comparison is ridiculous and such a comparison lessens the evil that was Hitler since Iran isn't as bad as Germany, nor Ahmedinejad as evil as Hitler.
As somebody whose Grandparents both had their entire families wiped out during the Holocaust (one of whom fought with the Jewish Resistance and the other who escaped and became part of the Russian Army), preserving the memory of the Holocaust is absolutely one of the most important things today in my eyes.
The difference between the Holocaust and most other genocides is that it wasn't a genocide for land or war on another peoples. It was the vilification of a race that was determined not to recognise them as people - as human beings. Meet a few Holocaust survivors who still have their camp numbers tattooed on their forearm and ask the question. The Jews had been denigrated to rats and were being exterminated and experimented upon as if they were vermin. THIS is why the Holocaust marks one of the darkest periods in human history.
Jews are so adamant about the world not forgetting precisely because of the persecution against the Jews throughout time. Jews see it in the sense that the more inclined the world is to forget, the sooner it is bound to happen again.
An interesting fact for you: Spielberg finally decided to make Schindler's List after reports were released that more than a third of Americans believed that the Holocaust never happened. This was less than 50 years after it ended.
The difference between the Holocaust and most other genocides is that it wasn't a genocide for land or war on another peoples. It was the vilification of a race that was determined not to recognise them as people - as human beings. Meet a few Holocaust survivors who still have their camp numbers tattooed on their forearm and ask the question. The Jews had been denigrated to rats and were being exterminated and experimented upon as if they were vermin. THIS is why the Holocaust marks one of the darkest periods in human history.
I disagree with the first point. All genocide is done over the persons race. Of all the incidents that I have read about maybe one was over something other than their race. Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia, Ukraine, etc. While the reach of the governments may not have extended beyond their own borders, the fact remains that race is the number one deciding factor when it comes to genocide.
An example is Armenia in the early 20th century. The CUP and the Young Turks took over the government and looked to spread their "Pan-Turkish" Ideology which the Armenians were in the way of.
Ukraine in the 1930s, the Kulak peasants who farmed the land were moved to Ukraine, their farms were collectivized, and there was a huge quota that had to be fulfilled.
As somebody whose Grandparents both had their entire families wiped out during the Holocaust (one of whom fought with the Jewish Resistance and the other who escaped and became part of the Russian Army), preserving the memory of the Holocaust is absolutely one of the most important things today in my eyes.
The difference between the Holocaust and most other genocides is that it wasn't a genocide for land or war on another peoples. It was the vilification of a race that was determined not to recognise them as people - as human beings. Meet a few Holocaust survivors who still have their camp numbers tattooed on their forearm and ask the question. The Jews had been denigrated to rats and were being exterminated and experimented upon as if they were vermin. THIS is why the Holocaust marks one of the darkest periods in human history.
Jews are so adamant about the world not forgetting precisely because of the persecution against the Jews throughout time. Jews see it in the sense that the more inclined the world is to forget, the sooner it is bound to happen again.
An interesting fact for you: Spielberg finally decided to make Schindler's List after reports were released that more than a third of Americans believed that the Holocaust never happened. This was less than 50 years after it ended.
Dude, that's offensive for every race that was victim of a genocide. You couldn't be more wrong. Btw your grandparents who fought with the Jewish Resistance were fucking heroes.
He was disagreeing with what Israel does and how some Jews use the Holocaust as means for profit and justifying the murder and oppression of Palestinians. So those people had to pull some strings to deny him tenure and vilify him.
Muslim runned clubs? I haven't seen one video of his in any muslim runned clubs.
Perhaps my wording was poor, but whilst most other major genocides which have occured have absolutely involved the perpetrating parties treating victims as if they weren't humans and projecting the idea that they're lesser humans, there has never been something like the Holocaust (to my knowledge) where the Nazi's actively sought to strip the identity of Jews as being classed within the same species. Unlike other genocides, they weren't promoting the idea of a lesser-human, but that they were not human. And people who had lived amongst them for decades bought into it.
I disagree with the first point. All genocide is done over the persons race. Of all the incidents that I have read about maybe one was over something other than their race. Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia, Ukraine, etc. While the reach of the governments may not have extended beyond their own borders, the fact remains that race is the number one deciding factor when it comes to genocide.
What happened in Cambodia was an attempt to exterminate societal elites, the people Pol Pot saw as a corrupting influence on society. That one was particularly horrifying because it was perpetuated by Cambodians against Cambodians, and also because about a third of the population died. I spent some time in that country a few years ago, and the place is still fucked. They're so far behind Thailand and Vietnam that it's ridiculous. If they didn't have Angkor Wat to bring in tourist dollars they'd be even more fucked.
Perhaps my wording was poor, but whilst most other major genocides which have occured have absolutely involved the perpetrating parties treating victims as if they weren't humans and projecting the idea that they're lesser humans, there has never been something like the Holocaust (to my knowledge) where the Nazi's actively sought to strip the identity of Jews as being classed within the same species.
I don't know about that. Raping, slashing pregnant women's bellies while they were still alive, killing babies in front of their mothers, making the fathers look while they raped their daughters and slaughtered their families sounds like they weren't treated like humans either. The Nazis industrialized the slaughter to make it more discrete thus more acceptable to their society and that's mainly the reason the Jewish were treated like products. But as far as genocides go there isn't much difference, I've even read of more disgusting ones (oh Africa) if that's even possible.
Perhaps my wording was poor, but whilst most other major genocides which have occured have absolutely involved the perpetrating parties treating victims as if they weren't humans and projecting the idea that they're lesser humans, there has never been something like the Holocaust (to my knowledge) where the Nazi's actively sought to strip the identity of Jews as being classed within the same species. Unlike other genocides, they weren't promoting the idea of a lesser-human, but that they were not human. And people who had lived amongst them for decades bought into it.
I don't know about that. Raping, slashing pregnant women's bellies while they were still alive, killing babies in front of their mothers, making the fathers look while they raped their daughters and slaughtered their families sounds like they weren't treated like humans either. The Nazis industrialized the slaughter to make it more discrete thus more acceptable to their society and that's mainly the reason the Jewish were treated like products. But as far as genocides go there isn't much difference, I've even read of more disgusting ones (oh Africa) if that's even possible.
Still not what I'm saying. I agree that they're not treated like humans in other genocides, but there was never a conscious effort to re-educate people with the intention of classifying the victims within another species.
As somebody whose Grandparents both had their entire families wiped out during the Holocaust (one of whom fought with the Jewish Resistance and the other who escaped and became part of the Russian Army), preserving the memory of the Holocaust is absolutely one of the most important things today in my eyes.
The difference between the Holocaust and most other genocides is that it wasn't a genocide for land or war on another peoples. It was the vilification of a race that was determined not to recognise them as people - as human beings. Meet a few Holocaust survivors who still have their camp numbers tattooed on their forearm and ask the question. The Jews had been denigrated to rats and were being exterminated and experimented upon as if they were vermin. THIS is why the Holocaust marks one of the darkest periods in human history.
Jews are so adamant about the world not forgetting precisely because of the persecution against the Jews throughout time. Jews see it in the sense that the more inclined the world is to forget, the sooner it is bound to happen again.
An interesting fact for you: Spielberg finally decided to make Schindler's List after reports were released that more than a third of Americans believed that the Holocaust never happened. This was less than 50 years after it ended.
What makes the Holocaust more horrifying, in my opinion, and the source of why we should really never forget is less to do with the people killed and more to do with the culture in which it happened in. We're talking about one of the most powerful countries in the world, and how its entire populace turned a blind eye to what was happening right in their very neighborhood. It teaches the importance of standing up for others even if the problem doesn't affect you directly.
Other genocides, specifically in Africa, are horrible but are also happening in war torn third world countries. It needs to be stopped, but it's not the same as if the United Kingdom just turned around and started killing all Muslims or something to that effect.
What makes the Holocaust more horrifying, in my opinion, and the source of why we should really never forget is less to do with the people killed and more to do with the culture in which it happened in. We're talking about one of the most powerful countries in the world, and how its entire populace turned a blind eye to what was happening right in their very neighborhood. It teaches the importance of standing up for others even if the problem doesn't effect you directly.
Other genocides, specifically in Africa, are horrible but are also happening in war torn third world countries. It needs to be stopped, but it's not the same as if the United Kingdom just turned around and started killing all Muslims or something to that effect.
Yes, exactly. The fact that these Jews were living with the populace (they would later be hated by) for decades is horrifying. The idea that an entire civilized nation could be swept up in such fanatacism to the point of exterminating their neighbours.
Yes, exactly. The fact that these Jews were living with the populace (they would later be hated by) for decades is horrifying. The idea that an entire civilized nation could be swept up in such fanatacism to the point of exterminating their neighbours.
Genocide is easier to accomplish when the people that are being subjugated have been treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years. Sadly Jews were treated this way for centuries. They were kicked out of just about every European nation, and the Catholic church was one of the main instigators.
There was a radical shift though that occurred in the Nazi ideology, rather than a religious point of view (Anti-Judaism) Hitler described them as a race (Anti-Semitism). There is a significant difference between the two variations.
Finally it doesn't help that the German economy was in complete shit since the end of World War I. It makes it easier tho trust your leadership when they are visibly changing the country arguably for the better (reduced inflation, raising economy). Had Europe intervened more in Germany and reduced some of the compensation that was due, the outlook of the war would have been completely different, and the Nazi party would have remained a small irrelevant party.
People focus on the Holocaust because it wasn't perpetrated by some backwards, poor, developing country on the periphery in Central Asia or Africa with an illiteracy rate touching 90%. It was perpetrated by the goddamn Germans, at the time one of the richest, most industrialised and culturally sophisticated countries in Europe.
Not only were these crimes being systematically committed on an unprecedented scale, they were being committed right under the noses of a populace that by-and-large did not approve of the killings. It took a very committed and indoctrinated Nazi to engage in these sorts of activities in the first place and the majority of Germans baulked at the very idea (this was confirmed by Gestapo and SS reports on the political mood in Germany), so these things were done in a clandestine way.
The thing is that because of the scale of state-sponsored slavery and murder, the German people knew what was going on. There was no way they couldn't. Rumours leaked back from the front and from the camps from the very beginning and by the end of the War, very few had any illusions of where the trainloads of Jews were going. Still, the German people did nothing to stop them. No uprisings. No mass protests. It was easier to keep their heads down in case the Gestapo decided to send them to a concentration camp themselves as asocials or political criminals.
This was evil on a grand scale. 25 million Russians dying at the hands of German armies (which was more due to grossly incompetent Russian generals sending green Russian soldiers off at the German lines in waves of suicidal frontal attacks instead of using actual tactics than German fighting effectiveness, by the way) and millions of other soldiers dying in battle doesn't have quite the same effect. Like it or not, we feel we understand their deaths on some level. There was no maliciousness or hatred between the individual soldiers at the very root of it - it was politics, same as it always has been.
The systematic plunder, exploitation and murder of millions of unarmed and undefended civilians, on the other hand, takes a very different type of aggression - the sadistic kind.
Yes, other genocides have happened since then (Kosovo, Darfur, Sudan, Cambodia etc.), but nothing on that kind of scale, with that kind of organisation or with the same meticulous, deliberate, efficient nature to it. What's more, the other genocides didn't happen in rich, modern countries. There's a bit of elitism at play here, but that's the truth of it - developed countries are held up as examples for other countries to follow.
I´m not going to say more than a few things people might not know.
-Hitler never had a majority of seats in the Reichstag (I´m talking 50%+1) for the NSDAP in a free election. Why could they become a dictatorship? The government in the Weimarer Republik was incredibly unstable because of all the checks in the constitution originally crafted to stop the government from becoming too independent from parliament and to stop a possible dictatorship. As a result with a minority vote from Reichstags member the government and the Reichskanzler could be fired. The Reichspräsident could hut the whole Reichstag down for weeks. A stable government for more than a few months was rare, one lasting a full term unheard of. Democracy and free elections were new to Germany and besides a huge part of the population wishing for another monarch, uprisings/revolutions and streetfights were common. Militaryand paramilitary police units squashed revolutions and counter-revolutions several times. After the SA brownshirts entered the fray shoot-outs and killings in the wake of elections were common. Juli 1932 saw the 6th Reichstags election, Novemver 1932 saw the 7th Reichstag selection and March 1933 the 8th, after the Reichstag was set on fire (quite probably by the NSDAP). As the currently strongest party with ~33% of the Reichstags seats, the NSDAP could get away with incarcerating political opponents into, well, concentration camps. Even after this they only got 43% of the votes and formed a coalition with other another right-wing party. This was the lest election with more than one party being allowed to run, because of Hindenburg´s death, the merging of the Reichskanzler and Reichspräsident positions into one person (Hitler) and emergency laws that let Hitler shut down the Reichstag and ban other parties (or simply violently stop their members from running).
-The NSDAP and their streetfighting brownshirts SA thugs started early (long before their powergrab) to abduct political opponents, communists and other "enemies", put them into makeshift internment camps were they tortured, beat and either killed them or threathened them to go after their families if they ever talk about this or cross their ways again. As I said streetsfights were commong between rivaling ideologies and political acitivists, but they took it to a whole other level. After they got total control of the military, government and press, well, things didn´t really get better for people opposing the NSDAP. Look at the Scholl siblings, spread anti-war, anti-Hitlers fliers and get beheaded.
-There were 42 attempts (42!) attempts at Hitler´s life (yes, not only those asshole Stauffenberg and his try to establish a military government). The first was 1921.
So overall it wasn´t really the life-longs democrats electing a mass-murderer in a free and secret election and then doing his genocidal biddings. The situation is less comparable to what the USA, France and the UK were at the time and more comparable to the everchanging French republic during La Grande Terreur in it´s stability and freedom of the population. Just with more happy smiling propaganda, Autobahnen and feel good celebrations.
And I personally think it´s wrong to say that only the genocide on Jews is the holocaust, because the holocaust is what everyone remembers, but the genocide on hundreds of thousands of Sinti and Romas is often excluded from the overall holocaust and get´s his own name, the Porojamos or Roma-holocaust. Fully excluded from the holocaust term (because the persecution wasn´t race based...) are the murders on Polish and Soviet citizens, the murder of hundreds of thousands disabled persons from Germany and the occupied countries, 20000 German communists and SPD members, almost 10000 gays and even 1200 Jehovas´ wittnesses. So every time the holocaust get´s remembered, those poor people aren´t included. So please talk about the victims of nazi rule, okay?
PS: My great-grandfather helped Jews to leave the country by issuing fake passports, so don´t try ANY funny stuff to brand me as an anti-semite.
PPS: Funny thing, considering the Old Testament, ALL post-flood humans are Semites, but the definition was changed.
WW2 was the defining moment of the 20th century and those gruesome photographs of the manner the Jews were killed, not necessarily whom was killed or how many, but the way they were executed is the most iconic image of that war and so you can understand why its still prevalent. But of course there are those who claim its relevant today because of the focus on Israel.
