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The Holocaust, and the industrialization of genocide

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Salazar

Member
butler980 said:
Jews do control the media so of course you're going to be seeing Holocaust stories in the news and stuff.

It is true that Jewish folks and folks with Jewish heritage are influential in publishing. To phrase it as you do, that 'Jews...control the media' is an exaggeration you shouldn't be making. For reasons numerous, sound, and sensitive. I realise it's offhand language, but have a care.
 
I don't see how the holocaust gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they like. The opposite is the case. A lot of the criticism towards them is like "how dare YOU of all people to do this!" - as if Auschwitz was an education camp.

As a german i have no problem getting reminded of the Holocaust and all other people that died in ww2. Sometimes i look for that myself, like going to the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam for example.

Only thing that pisses me off to no end is when people don't make a difference between our generation and the generation of the nazi era. Todays germans have no reason to feel more guilty or responsible about these things then anybody else in the world.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Would they have wanted to go, honestly? The Romani never had as cohesive a national identity as the Jews did and certainly not one tied to any one region, site or location. Their way of life and traditional economic livelihood depends on being nomadic.

I don't know. But I doubt that route would have been seriously considered by the Allies, even if a significant amount of the Romani desired something like that. Of course, the comparison with the Jewish people is nowhere near identical, but they often seem to be the forgotten people in that period (or any other), no?
 

SiteSeer

Member
Natetan said:
The nazis and WWII is like the Victorian age for the British. They can think back to a time when it was a golden age for their country. Hitler was entirely wrong and America did everything right in response and won a good war with no grey area.

and yet a significant portion of americans are of german lineage.
m-night-shyamalan.jpg
 

Apath

Member
Binabik15 said:
PS: My great-grandfather helped Jews to leave the country by issuing fake passports, so don´t try ANY funny stuff to brand me as an anti-semite.
Don't have anything wrong with your post except for the fact that you seem to think that your grandfather being a good man somehow makes you have a shield of immunity to being called a bigot.
 
Steppenwolf said:
I don't see how the holocaust gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they like. The opposite is the case. A lot of the criticism towards them is like "how dare YOU of all people to do this!" - as if Auschwitz was an education camp.

As a german i have no problem getting reminded of the Holocaust and all other people that died in ww2. Sometimes i look for that myself, like going to the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam for example.

Only thing that pisses me off to no end is when people don't make a difference between our generation and the generation of the nazi era. Todays germans have no reason to feel more guilty or responsible about these things then anybody else in the world.

YOU INVADED MY COUNTRY. I KILL YOU!!!! >:O!!!

Poland always keeps getting the short end of the stick these past couple of hundred years. It's almost comical

I think the thing about the Holocaust, and why it's mentioned is because it's the largest extermination of people in history, right? Around 11 million people (because Jews weren't the only victims)
The amount of death that ensued during WW2 is just insanity.
 

DEO3

Member
It seems like the only time I hear abut the holocaust is when someone is trying to defend something I usually disagree with. For instance, Israel walling in Palestinians, forcing them to endure ridiculous checkpoints every day, controlling their food and water supplies, slowly taking their land week after week.

But hey, the holocaust, maaaaaan.
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
i_am_ben said:
pretty much this although I'm far more critical of the German populace.
If GAF was Germany, they would have stopped Hitler with their bare hands.
 

Pezking

Member
gumshoe said:
It has been more than 70 years and Germans are still reminded of what their ancestors did and that they should feel guilty. (why???)

I'm German, and I don't think the Holocaust is an omnipresent accusation towards Germany as a whole, and most of the media and memorials I came across seem to handle the theme very calm and appropriate.

It's not so much about how many people were killed, of what kind of people.

To me, the most important lesson of the Holocaust is how easy a great number of good, normal people can become sadist beasts that kill others in a factory-like environment and return to their own families in the evening for dinner, while being good fathers and husbands.

In this day and age, it's terribly easy to relativize inhumanity in a large scale.

That alone is reason enough to never forget what happened, and what could happen again.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
gumshoe said:
:lol :lol (I am not laughing at you. I just thought the comment was funny)

It is pretty hard to not open the TV, read the newspaper, go online without seeing something about the Holocaust.

I hadn't heard anything about the Holocaust recently until you made a thread about it. Good going. :lol
 

Salazar

Member
DEO3 said:
It seems like the only time I hear abut the holocaust is when someone is trying to defend something I usually disagree with.

Your library probably has a copy of Primo Levi's 'The Periodic Table'. You wouldn't regret reading it.

George Steiner's 'Language and Silence' is also fine, but I would understand if most did not consider it essential reading.
 
I've heard this sentiment far too much from modern descendents of oppressor groups.

"Get over it".

I've heard Turkish students claim that the Armenian genocide wasn't that bad (well at least not so bad that they should have to acknowledge it officially), I've heard white students claim that they shouldn't have to learn about the civil rights movement (and that blacks have had equal opportunity for 150 years in the US : lol), I've seen Chinese students totally rationalize the situation with Tibet, I've seen people on this very board argue that South Africa is a fucked up place since blacks took over, as if it was all rainbows and sunshines for everyone when 10% of the population ruled 100% of the country.

So no, I don't think history can ever be overblown. I think our atrocities need to be jammed down our throats, so that people can understand WHY things are the way they are now. Like it or not, nearly every conflict in the world is a product of some fuck-up in 20th century, failure to understand that is ignorance at best and dihonesty at worst.
 

Jex

Member
Dabookerman said:
I think the thing about the Holocaust, and why it's mentioned is because it's the largest extermination of people in history, right? Around 11 million people (because Jews weren't the only victims)

Me and my friends were thinking about this, trying to work out who had the killed the most people. I think the only guy with more people killed then the Holocaust, was Russia under Stalin's rule.

Also, that there tends to be a western industry discussing western events and not other, equally horrifying events around the world, is not very surprising.
 
BananaBomb said:
Am I the only one who feels like Jews get a lot of hate on these forums?
Okay, being raised in Washington Heights, I wasn't that far away from Yeshiva University. That term "Jew" has always confused the shit out me. Some tell me is not a race, but a religion instead. Some say is both. And this comes from students at Yeshiva University that I met through out the years living up there. I even looked at the Wiki entry a couple of years ago, and it says(I'm summarising here)Yes and no.

I remember my Russian friend(his religion is judaism btw)telling me "You don't hear Dominicans in WH introducing themselves as Catholic's" and This Israeli kid saying "Is funny how people not born in my country are the ones using the term, compared to us israelis" I know I went off topic with my post, but I didn't want to make a thread. BTW to person I quoted, GAF hates everyone equally.
 
ShinobiFist said:
Okay, being raised in Washington Heights, I wasn't that far away from Yeshiva University. That term "Jew" has always confused the shit out me. Some tell me is not a race, but a religion instead. Some say is both. And this comes from students at Yeshiva University that I met through out the years living up there. I even looked at the Wiki entry a couple of years ago, and it says(I'm summarising here)Yes and no.

I remember my Russian friend(his religion is judaism btw)telling me "You don't hear Dominicans in WH introducing themselves as Catholic's" and This Israeli kid saying "Is funny how people not born in my country are the ones using the term, compared to us israelis" I know I went off topic with my post, but I didn't want to make a thread. BTW to person I quoted, GAF hates everyone equally.

I think calling Jews an ethnoreligious group is a misnomer for the reason alone that the different Jewish ethnic groups aren't even genetically related. For example, genetically speaking, Ashkenazi Jews aren't even semitic (which is Ironic because from my experience Ashkenazi's throw the term "anti semite" around more than anyone). You would be more correct in calling a Palestinian Muslim/Christian a Jew(ethnically) than calling an Ashkenazi a Jew(ethnically).
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Shurs said:
Sort of.

Let's not act like public sentiment towards the Jews in pre-WW2 Germany was warm.
No, but would you say everyone with those sentiments approved of what happened? That's exactly the thing. It's not a completely simple story.
Even if Anne Frank made it to SSJ4, there's no guarantee that would have stopped the war any sooner anyway.
Sho_Nuff82 said:
So no, I don't think history can ever be overblown.
That's kind of missing the panties for the ribbon in this conversation, though. It's like a 9/11 T-shirt. Is that trying to make us remember or make a buck? Okay, they say proceeds go to those in need and blah, blah, blah, but still. Something smells funny.

So I get the sentiment of the OP, although I don't necessarily agree with everything said. Sometimes it feels like personal gain is being covered up by "history lessons" and it's rather devious because if anyone opposes then suddenly they are the bad person.

It's just one of those things you might wonder about from time to time but don't dare say anything because it's not worth the trouble.
 

YoungHav

Banned
Though the OP has a point w/Israel arguably using the Holocaust to justify actions, his post is glaring with his own prejudices. My lawschool was majority Jewish and during my years there, there was no Holocaust parading. I dunno wtf you are talking about and it seems like you are bothered by Jews in general. Having a problem with Holocaust museums for what? It's history! Just like white people who don't get race relations in this country and are "sick and tired" of hearing about racism and slavery, you come off as being cut from the same cloth.
 

cicero

Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Sounds to me that he's sick of Israel claiming some sort of moral high ground because of it. It makes criticism of Israel somewhat tricky if you don't want to be accused of racism or neo-nazism. Given his apparently muslim background, he probably already has strong cultural pressures biasing him against Israel, so to be considered a bad person for what he believes to be his own rational, natural and just beliefs probably gets irksome after a while.

I imagine when he's watching the news and sees an image of the holocaust he gets an itch in his pants and is all like "OH GEEZ WE GET IT, ALRIGHT? 6 MILLION PEOPLE BLAH BLAH BLAH! WHAT ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS HUH?" and throws some popcorn at the screen or something.

I get where he's coming from, but annoyance at the state of political discourse isn't enough reason to diminish awareness of the Holocaust in the collective memory of the West.
It took most of this thread to finally see someone mention the obvious about his apparent muslim background. I fail to see how this is not a major point to raise about the apparent likely motives and intent behind the original post and following responses.


gumshoe said:
not really

-media control (especially in the U.S.)
-cutting off power and water supplies to palestinians.
- Gaza is one giant concentration camp, where Israel can come in whenever they please and kill whoever they want. (see Gaza war)
gumshoe said:
when we talk about Israel, we are most of the time referring to their racist government.
:roll eyes:


Salazar said:
butler980 said:
Jews do control the media so of course you're going to be seeing Holocaust stories in the news and stuff.
It is true that Jewish folks and folks with Jewish heritage are influential in publishing. To phrase it as you do, that 'Jews...control the media' is an exaggeration you shouldn't be making. For reasons numerous, sound, and sensitive. I realise it's offhand language, but have a care.
Why downplay usage of a canard that has been voiced since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? And how does that differ from the comment by the OP?
 

cicero

Member
Mandark said:
Off topic, but you are like the king of thinly sourced statistics.
I actually kind of expected you to come back at some point in this thread with some kind of statistic disproving his comment, I really don't know why, but I did. It would have made your criticism something other than just a thinly sourced personal attack/troll attempt.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25562-2005Mar10.html
Spending $2.3 trillion (measured in today's dollars) in aid over the past five decades has left the most aid-intensive regions, like Africa, wallowing in continued stagnation; it's fair to say this approach has not been a great success.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Possible factors for the primacy accorded the Holocaust vis-a-vis other terrible historical happenings:

1. Many exiles and survivors immigrated to English-speaking countries and their accounts are widely available. Not so Bosnians, Hutus, etc.

2. Remembering how terrible the Holocaust was is part of a natural tendency to justify the enormous cost the Allies paid to see the war through to unconditional surrender.

3. It is a fact that a disproportionate amount of the heads of Hollywood studios, who mostly shape how we view history these days, have been Jewish. While not a reason by itself, it can't hurt.

4. The Nazis are the one enemy everyone can agree on loathing. Virtually nobody defends them, unlike every subsequent regime accused of crimes against humanity. See, for example, Ed Herman's (Noam Chomsky's co-author on Manufacturing Consent) denial of the 1995 Srebernica massacre.

5. The Nazi crimes are generally better-remembered as a result of guilt on the part of influential leftists in the press and academy who were initially forced by Stalin to defend the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact. Making up for lost time.

6. As already discussed, for good or ill the Western mind is more affected by the country of Bach and Goethe sending millions of people to gas chambers via railroad than what happens in Cambodia or Rwanda, however terrible it is.
 

Enosh

Member
LovingSteam said:
Exactly. One country was attempting to exterminate an entire people. The millions that died during fighting on both the Ally and Axis side did so during battle. The POW's caught were caught in the line of battle. Not to mention the civilians who were killed during battle. It is quite different than what happened to the Jews.
russian PoW were also systematicly murdered just like the jews, british and US PoW were quite okay, had a low mortality rate something like 5%, mostly due to disseases (well atleast in Europe, the japanese weren't that kind to US PoW, something like 30% mortality rate iirc)
 
Enosh said:
russian PoW were also systematicly murdered just like the jews, british and US PoW were quite okay, had a low mortality rate something like 5%, mostly due to disseases (well atleast in Europe, the japanese weren't that kind to US PoW, something like 30% mortality rate iirc)

But were the Russian PoW's soldiers who were caught in battle? That is a difference. Again, I am not saying such deaths were acceptable but rather aren't given as much focus as those who were regular citizens ushered into camps by the Nazi's.
 

Steelrain

Member
SomeDude said:
Pre 1945 Europe was basically a barbaric fringe. The only reason it stopped then is because WW3 would be the end.


Europe has a horrific history of barbarism. The US pretty much took over after 1945 and continues to this day the worldwide attrocities.

:lol :lol :lol This fuckin guy....
 

Enosh

Member
LovingSteam said:
But were the Russian PoW's soldiers who were caught in battle? That is a difference. Again, I am not saying such deaths were acceptable but rather aren't given as much focus as those who were regular citizens ushered into camps by the Nazi's.
cought in battle, cought after the battle, not sure, doesn't matter anyway, they weren't killed beacose they were soldiers, they were killed beacose the germans wanted to create their Lebensraum in east Europe

I was in Buchenwald, I saw the chambers where they led the soviet PoW in order to execute them one by one (quite ingenious actualy, the walls were soundproof so that the soviets didn't hear the gunshots in order to not panic them (there were a lot more soviets than there were germans, if they knew they are about to die that would complicate things), they were thinking they are going to a rutine medical exam), it's no difrent from the systematic killing of the jews

holocaust fun fact that I just recendly learned:
Odilo Globocnik, one of the people most responsible for the holocaust was born in Trieste to Slovene parrents (I am slovene that's why this bit of info is interesting to me^^)
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
DEO3 said:
It seems like the only time I hear abut the holocaust is when someone is trying to defend something I usually disagree with. For instance, Israel walling in Palestinians, forcing them to endure ridiculous checkpoints every day, controlling their food and water supplies, slowly taking their land week after week.

But hey, the holocaust, maaaaaan.


But, then... how did you see this thread?
 
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