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[danm999]

Republicans always talk about immigration come election time, it's a prime conservative talking point, just not let's build a wall kind of immigration talk.

The 2012 autopsies the RNC did said they needed to stop and go along with immigration reform to win a general.

 

[cameron]

The point is a bit moot then. They all spent a lot. Probably about the same amount. The guy who finished at the bottom will have spent most per vote. No shit!

Now is it delicious irony that Jeb was supposed to have been the obvious front runner say 6 months ago? Sure. But other than that, the chart is just pointing out the obvious.

Santorum has the least amount of votes. 1800 votes at $900 each. Compare that to Jeb.

 

[teruterubozu]

The 2012 autopsies the RNC did said they needed to stop and go along with immigration reform to win a general.

But they went right back to it in 2014 midterms, opposing Obama's legalization plans. And it actually worked. They will always have this problem of appeasing general vs. midterm elections.

 

[mid83]

Yeah that's about what I figured, what about Rand though?

Rand is my personal favorite in the primaries, but he never stood a chance. He's not libertarian enough for true libertarians and far too libertarian for more traditional conservatives (mostly on national defense/foreign policy).

Also I think message was an issue. He brought up some excellent points in the debates but I think a lot of them went right over the average voters heads. Compare that to Trumpisms or Cruz shitting on Washington and people just tune out Paul. Lots of people probably had no clue what he was talking about in many cases. I think he could have done well with the youth vote, but we all know the youth vote isn't going to show up in the numbers needed to make a difference.

 

[royalan]

But they aren't pie in the sky compared to literally every other global economy?

"Why didn't FDR support reparations? He obviously was for these pie in the sky ideas like "national roadways"" and "social security benefits" for every elderly citizen."

"Why didn't LBJ support reparations? He's obviously for these pie in the sky ideas like "unsegregated public schools"

As i said before. Just because Bernie advocates for legitimate ideas doesn't mean he's obligated to support literally everything out there. His ideals that he's been talking about for years are not even radical by our own history, let alone in the global sense. Its the other American politicians ideas that are weaksauce and don't improve anything substantive.

Its a tough task in our current weak as hell climate with everyone in both parties afraid of stepping on their donors shadows, but anyone saying its pie in the sky apparently assumes that taking on corporate corruption is pie in the sky, or actually improving people's quality of life is pie in the sky, and that we should not advocate for those things because they are 'pie in the sky'.

So, if not now, when in the distant vague future were you planning on expecting more from your elected officials?

Well, somebody has to push for these things even if everyone else is a coward who won't say what needs to be said and advocate for what needs to be advocated for.

Bernie Sanders doesn't advocate for legitimate ideas (nice of you to "other" reparations by your use of legitimate there). He advocates for "radical" ideas. Hell, he says it himself in that stump speech he won't ever deviate from.

 

[danm999]

But they went right back to it in 2014 midterms, opposing Obama's legalization plans. And it actually worked. They will always have this problem of appeasing general vs. midterm elections.

Not really, that's what the Gang of Eight was all about.

Then Eric Cantor tried to push reform and got primaried. The establishment has been trying to put this one to bed for a while.

Insurgent candidates keep pulling them away from where they want to be.

 

[Kusagari]

Bernie Sanders doesn't advocate for legitimate ideas (nice of you to "other" reparations by your use of legitimate there). He advocates for "radical" ideas. Hell, he says it himself in that stump speech he won't ever deviate from.

The fallacy is the reparations argument seems to be that Bernie should just blanket statement support every radical progressive/liberal idea out there. It feels like such a shit-faced and reaching line of attack. I think there are indeed a number of criticisms to be had with how Bernie has handled minorities and their issues during his campaign, but this just feels like a desperate form of attack.

 

[royalan]

The fallacy is the reparations argument seems to be that Bernie should just blanket statement support every radical progressive/liberal idea out there. It feels like such a shit-faced and reaching line of attack. I think there are indeed a number of criticisms to be had with how Bernie has handled minorities and their issues during his campaign, but this just feels like a desperate form of attack.

I would agree with the idea that the argument is reaching if Bernie could come up with a convincing argument for why he doesn't support reparations other than "it's divisive." Bernie, your entire platform is divisive.

 

[Cagey]

The fallacy is the reparations argument seems to be that Bernie should just blanket statement support every radical progressive/liberal idea out there. It feels like such a shit-faced and reaching line of attack. I think there are indeed a number of criticisms to be had with how Bernie has handled minorities and their issues during his campaign, but this just feels like a desperate form of attack.

It's silly, making perfect the enemy of good type thinking.

Incidentally its the same thing that Bernie Sanders supporters claim about Hillary in many instances: she's not as perfect (defined as most progressive) so she then fails. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

We have went back and forth on this, some, and before I dig in, I want you to know I appreciate your opinion on this.

The thing I would keep in mind with Bernie is he was out against TANF and the Clinton Welfare Reform Act of 1996 20 years ago. He voted against it in 1996, and wrote about it in 1997.

The reason "traditional" social programs don't work is that they were designed not to work. In 1996, Newt Gingrich and President Clinton came up with a deal to scrap traditional Welfare, and create TANF, that includes block grants to the states (which aren't always spent on social programs), a temporary nature, and most importantly, don't change with inflation.

So the Money for Welfare is essentially, static at 1996 levels until Congress decides to vote to change. The amount of money for benefits stays the same even as the pools grow (or shrink).

The work requirements have some inherent racism because the jobless rate is so much worse for Black Americans.

The programs don't work because they were designed not to work. I think you could design a program that DOES work (national minimum income or something like that), but this one isn't it.

I think you're right that there are certain structural differences that need to be addressed with legislation that targets people racially, even if they are temporary in nature or phase out slowly over some extended time period (50 years, say).

I think when people say that Bernie is better for minorities, or at least when I say it, I am specifically talking about the Clinton ties to Welfare Reform (which Hillary said was a great success as recently as the 2008 primary) and Sanders specifically saying that the law was immoral.

Is designing and implementing a new system easier or more likely to yield better results than editing what we've got into something better is what it boils down to. My experience with IT and programming lead me to believe it will be the latter.

The program helps to keep white people middle class. That's kind of a success despite it's morality. Considering the ties in helping put the system together I have more faith the latter option.

50 years might not be enough for the wealth to stick. Assuming some kind of Desegregation 2.0 it would still make significant strides in helping eliminate the disparities we currently see.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

There is a 0% chance of anything Hillary wants reaching across the aisle successfully with the GOP as it is.

There is 0% chance of anything Bernie wants taking an aggressive stance successfully with the GOP as it is. Not unless you believe in some political revolution.

Health care will pass. I bet there will be some things hidden on it for both sides.

 

[gutter_trash]

Is there a reason Jeb is doing so poorly in this race? Is it just his "low-energy" or what?

Trump happened and Trump singled out Jeb to bully

 

[sphagnum]

There is 0% chance of anything Bernie wants taking an aggressive stance successfully with the GOP as it is. Not unless you believe in some political revolution.

I know. That's why, since I figure neither can get anything done legislatively, I'd prefer to vote for the one who more closely aligns with my economic beliefs if purely for the media exposure it would get.

 

[teruterubozu]

Not really, that's what the Gang of Eight was all about.

Then Eric Cantor tried to push reform and got primaried. The establishment has been trying to put this one to bed for a while.

Insurgent candidates keep pulling them away from where they want to be.

Well we'll see if Rubio and the Gang of Eight thing can pull him through. Otherwise it's the same immigration shit as always for Republicans, whether they try to shed it or not.

 

[danm999]

Well we'll see if Rubio and the Gang of Eight thing can pull him through. Otherwise it's the same immigration shit as always for Republicans, whether they try to shed it or not.

It'll be interesting to see if Rubio can get out from under Trump's labelling him as pro-amnesty.

Because if he goes too hard in the primary 'I'm not amnesty I wanna deport em all etc etc", he'll never win a general.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

I know. That's why, since I figure neither can get anything done legislatively, I'd prefer to vote for the one who more closely aligns with my economic beliefs if purely for the media exposure it would get.

I would agree if we didn't know that there will be compromise to get "the basics" funded.

 

[Jas]

There is 0% chance of anything Bernie wants taking an aggressive stance successfully with the GOP as it is. Not unless you believe in some political revolution.

Health care will pass. I bet there will be some things hidden on it for both sides.

Republicans have tried to repeal Obamacare over 50 times...you think they are going pass Hillary's plan to expand it?

Hillary is just as dependent on a "political revolution" if she wants to get anything she is campaigning on passed as Sanders.

 

[NervousXtian]

Bernie stans make it tough to be a democrat some days... my Facebook all up with that C-Span Iowa caucus video calling it a fraud because the lady didn't count.. when in the end the result wasn't going to change.

I love Bernie, but damn.. his fans are legit crazy.

 

[lenovox1]

Trump happened and Trump singled out Jeb to bully

I gonna need him to come for Rubio's wig, though. If he wants to win NH with insane margins.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

"If you're supporting all these other completely unviable pie in the sky ideas, why won't you support this one?" is what they're getting at.

It's an obvious logical fallacy and I'm stunned to see people latching onto it. I'm far from a Sanders supporter but that argument is asinine.

 

[Aurongel]

Bernie stans make it tough to be a democrat some days... my Facebook all up with that C-Span Iowa caucus video calling it a fraud because the lady didn't count.. when in the end the result wasn't going to change.

I love Bernie, but damn.. his fans are legit crazy.

Cut Bernie fans some slack, only a few of them have figured out how a voting booth works, it's pretty unrealistic of us to expect them to understand the finer points of the election process.

Spoiler

I keed, I keed.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

Republicans have tried to repeal Obamacare over 50 times...you think they are going pass Hillary's plan to expand it?

Hillary is just as dependent on a "political revolution" if she wants to get anything she is campaigning on passed as Sanders.

They have unsuccessfully tried 50 times and it's still there. They popularized welfare queens to scare people of social programs and yet they are still here and I bet some have expanded. Nothing in the sense of 0 will get done is a lie. Nothing as in so little as to barely constitute anything will get done. That's not a political revolution that's political reality.

 

[RustyNails]

Trump needs to walk up to his podium in one of his speeches and bring a copy of the gang of eight bill and show everyone Rubio's name on it. Done.

 

[BowieZ]

Bernie stans make it tough to be a democrat some days... my Facebook all up with that C-Span Iowa caucus video calling it a fraud because the lady didn't count.. when in the end the result wasn't going to change.

I love Bernie, but damn.. his fans are legit crazy.

Your point being you have a fickle ideology?

If young people newly obsessed and excited over the political process passionately protesting something is difficult for you to encounter, maybe you've got the problem. In other words, no need to be so dramatic about it.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Yeah, but how much did Jim Gilmore spend per vote?

 

[iddqd]

Sorry for being late to this, I'm not from the US, but how is it that Cruz is running for President while not actually being born in the US?

I remember a lot of bananarama around that subject with Obama... are the same people now ignoring the facts with Cruz?

Again, sorry if this has been talked about 3982 times already.

(If I follow Wiki, then most people would argue that he can not run)

 

[Ogrekiller]

Your point being you have a fickle ideology?

If young people newly obsessed and excited over the political process passionately protesting something is difficult for you to encounter, maybe you've got the problem. In other words, no need to be so dramatic about it.

The point I think is that they have the fickle ideology.

Bernie lost yet they still want to protest claiming voter fraud/coin flips/cheating.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Sorry for being late to this, I'm not from the US, but how is it that Cruz is running for President while not actually being born in the US?

I remember a lot of bananarama around that subject with Obama... are the same people now ignoring the facts with Cruz?

Again, sorry if this has been talked about 3982 times already.

(If I follow Wiki, then most people would argue that he can not run)

His mother is a U.S. citizen, he's a citizen.

 

[RPS37]

What's the schedule like for upcoming caucuses??

 

[B-Dubs]

What's the schedule like for upcoming caucuses??

New Hampshire is next week, South Carolina and Nevada soon after that.

 

[120v]

Sorry for being late to this, I'm not from the US, but how is it that Cruz is running for President while not actually being born in the US?

I remember a lot of bananarama around that subject with Obama... are the same people now ignoring the facts with Cruz?

Again, sorry if this has been talked about 3982 times already.

(If I follow Wiki, then most people would argue that he can not run)

canada is sort of like america jr. whereas kenya has no white people

Spoiler

mother is american. so he's a citizen

 

[Team Alucard]

Is there a reason Jeb is doing so poorly in this race? Is it just his "low-energy" or what?

You tell me.

 

[NervousXtian]

The point I think is that they have the fickle ideology.

Bernie lost yet they still want to protest claiming voter fraud/coin flips/cheating.

Exactly.

Bernie stans sound like the crazy GOP conspiracy theory guys spouting about how there was higher voter turnout than people in counties and 100% Obama vote counts and all that other bunk.

We gotta be better than that. If Bernie ends up winning (he probably won't) I'll vote for him, if Hillary wins, I'll vote for her.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I would agree with the idea that the argument is reaching if Bernie could come up with a convincing argument for why he doesn't support reparations other than "it's divisive." Bernie, your entire platform is divisive.

Because a large majority of the electorate, and the portion that has the most disposable time and income to devote to supporting progressive causes, is white, and even if he were the most expert intersectionalist on the planet, the reality is the only economic agenda that's going to have even the potential to gain massive grassroots support and build a big enough tent to potentially overturn the current political landscape is one that is largely colorblind. Everybody understands having relatively less money than we once did, but the nature and face of modern racism will take a lot longer to popularize and combat. Attacking economic inequality and the rape of the planet by large corporations helps almost everybody, and it puts people of color on more solid footing to combat racism in the future. To the shame of the electorate, adding reparations - especially put so vaguely - instantly turns him into a fringe candidate, instead of somebody espousing political principles that are likely going to be mainstream in the next 15-20 years.

 

[Trouble]

 

[Trojita]

His mother is a U.S. citizen, he's a citizen.

Just not natural born.

 

[RustyNails]

Exactly.

Bernie stans sound like the crazy GOP conspiracy theory guys spouting about how there was higher voter turnout than people in counties and 100% Obama vote counts and all that other bunk.

We gotta be better than that. If Bernie ends up winning (he probably won't) I'll vote for him, if Hillary wins, I'll vote for her.

And therein lies the rump. How well do you think berniebros on reddit and elsewhere across the internet will reciprocate by voting for Hillary? Young people normally are the worst groups to turnout and vote. This just gives them the best excuse they wanted.

I hope the primary craziness wears away after the conventions happen, and sense and pragmatism takes hold in berniebro minds when they see Ted Cruz as the inevitable GOP nominee.

 

[CurlyHairedMonster]

His mother is a U.S. citizen, he's a citizen.

Just like Obama. You're not answering his question in any way however.

 

[Slackerish]

Just not natural born.

We don't know if that meant on land or by parent when the founders wrote it.

Illinois Board of Elections ruled today he is a `Natural Born Citizen'

 

[SkyOdin]

Just not natural born.

The logical assumption is that "natural born" is in contrast to being an immigrant who became a citizen later in life. If you meet the criteria to be a citizen at birth, you are a natural born citizen. Being born on US soil and being born the child of an American citizen are both legitimate ways of being born a US citizen, so it seems silly to draw a distinction between them in terms of Presidential qualification.

 

[numble]

canada is sort of like america jr. whereas kenya has no white people

Spoiler

mother is american. so he's a citizen

The logical assumption is that "natural born" is in contrast to being an immigrant who became a citizen later in life. If you meet the criteria to be a citizen at birth, you are a natural born citizen. Being born on US soil and being born the child of an American citizen are both legitimate ways of being born a US citizen, so it seems silly to draw a distinction between them in terms of Presidential qualification.

His mother is a U.S. citizen, he's a citizen.

There are complicated rules around qualifying for citizenship if born overseas to a citizen, that Congress changes from time to time--it isn't automatic or natural in any logical sense. For instance, if you were born in the US as a citizen, left the US at age 12, and had a child at age 18 with a non-citizen, the child does not qualify for citizenship, it doesn't matter if you are a citizen that spent 2/3 of your life in the US.

 

[televator]

I know. That's why, since I figure neither can get anything done legislatively, I'd prefer to vote for the one who more closely aligns with my economic beliefs if purely for the media exposure it would get.

People also forget that its not just Bernie Sanders to consider, but his whole cabinet wont be a bunch of money grabbing charlatans coming from financial companies or some other industry shill.

 

[NervousXtian]

And therein lies the rump. How well do you think berniebros on reddit and elsewhere across the internet will reciprocate by voting for Hillary? Young people normally are the worst groups to turnout and vote. This just gives them the best excuse they wanted.

I hope the primary craziness wears away after the conventions happen, and sense and pragmatism takes hold in berniebro minds when they see Ted Cruz as the inevitable GOP nominee.

Yeah, it's pretty disappointing as the Bernie stans are ripping into Hillary almost as hard as GOP supporters... it's pretty ugly. They just better still vote when it comes time and their horse isn't in the race.. because sure as fuck in the end GOP voters are going to vote straight party-line no matter who get's the nom.

 

[Trojita]

Yeah, it's pretty disappointing as the Bernie stans are ripping into Hillary almost as hard as GOP supporters... it's pretty ugly. They just better still vote when it comes time and their horse isn't in the race.. because sure as fuck in the end GOP voters are going to vote straight party-line no matter who get's the nom.

Both sides are doing it. It's like 2008 all over again. Though I will agree there probably is a low amount of Bernie supporters that won't end up voting for Hillary in the long run. While Hillary "stans" in 2008 almost mostly voted for Obama when it became time. Though in the latter case you still had people saying they wouldn't vote for Obama.

 

[Damaniel]

The point I think is that they have the fickle ideology.

Bernie lost yet they still want to protest claiming voter fraud/coin flips/cheating.

And it's not even like he lost by much. Even if they flipped the estimated county delegate count by two through Coingate/UnderstaffedGate/Rule28Gate, the overall number of state delegates stays exactly the same. Bernie's supporters should just accept that they pretty much split the state delegates, take the L on the county delegates count, and move on. I suspect they can't and won't.

The worst part about this result is that both sides can spin it as a win, so we won't hear the end of it until next week. Personally, I think Bernie underperformed - for someone who's supposed to be leading a revolution by bringing about an uprising of grassroots support, he failed to win overall in a state that should really have been his. He'll be fine in New Hampshire, but after that I have doubts.

 

[Horns]

It's definitely coming from Bernie supporters more than Hillary. Probably has a lot to do with the younger more immature supporters that Bernie has.

 

[lastflowers]

Both sides are doing it. It's like 2008 all over again. Though I will agree there probably is a low amount of Bernie supporters that won't end up voting for Hillary in the long run. While Hillary "stans" in 2008 almost mostly voted for Obama when it became time. Though in the latter case you still had people saying they wouldn't vote for Obama.

I honestly feel like I"m back as a senior in HS and/or freshman at CMU

 

[BoboBrazil]

Fox has gone all in on their support for Rubio now it seems by watching their channel. They are just burying Jeb now that they realize he has no chance.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Both sides are doing it. It's like 2008 all over again. Though I will agree there probably is a low amount of Bernie supporters that won't end up voting for Hillary in the long run. While Hillary "stans" in 2008 almost mostly voted for Obama when it became time. Though in the latter case you still had people saying they wouldn't vote for Obama.

I think it's funny, the exact same arguments where tried against Obama's young "naive" supporters back then. He was unelectable, not as experienced as Hillary. Wouldn't be able to accomplish any of his promises. Too risky to nominate.

You would think such grizzled veterans of the political scene would not fall into the same trap twice but here we are.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Here's my thought on a "political revolution." It doesn't end if/when your candidate doesn't get nominated. That's not a political revolution. That's a cult. If Sanders doesn't get the nomination, the cause doesn't end. You vote for the best (or least bad) practical option (if you're a liberal, that'd be Hillary) and you push her ass to the left. In two years, you show up in droves at mid-terms. You push the people in office that don't represent you out. In four to eight years, you vote for an even more progressive candidate for President. You don't make progress by going backwards. For all the shit that the Tea Partiers get (much of which is deserved), they are actually represented in Congress because they got so fed up with the system that they forced themselves in. I don't see why the passionate left can't do the same thing.