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[Trey]

The US simultaneously developed the atomic bomb and put Japanese-Americans in internment camps.

What is the difference here with Kuvira?

Kuvira doesn't have the on paper history nor culture nor widespread influence nor intrigue nor constituency nor responsibilities nor character of mid-20th century America.

You compared the US at the precipice of ultimate world power to a fictional person that got all of 90 minutes of screen time. As characters go, one is not quite as developed as the other.

and that's the thing: Kuvira wears these real world parallels on her sleeve, but no work is done to make her own these things. Running concentration camps doesn't make you driven, it just makes you look like Nazi Germany.

 

[JadedWriter]

She didn't want her people to be taken advantage of, so she united them, gained a ton of power so they'd be strong, and removed anyone who wasn't a native Earth citizen and/or earthbender. It's a very general point that, while it makes sense, is never properly conveyed to make it believable.

I've said time and time again that the biggest issue with Kuvira is that we don't see the "jump" so to speak. At some point, she makes a pretty big leap, and we never see that leap. That comes at the cost of having a three year time skip. Her motives provide enough fuel so that the things she does make sense, we just don't see it because there wasn't a focus. Same with her psychological breakdown at the end. It is there, just not really conveyed all that well so her breaking down in front of Korra also seems out of nowhere.

It's the issue with Balance as a whole in that, every plot thread is a slow and/or subtle build up. Kuvira isn't an immediate threat, there's a three year time skip, Kuvira's breakdown is subtle, and Korrasami is...well, that's been overdone. The other three seasons do a significantly better job at having an immediate threat and a sense of urgency. You can feel the danger, but that's not the case in Book 4, which is precisely why I think it's the worst season. It feels too much like set up compared to the payoff we get.

I think when it comes to her breakdown I can at least make some sense out of it. Kuvira seems to make faces or react to things that aren't part of her plan, it's those tiny moments where she looses control. With the last two eps she's gradually losing control of a situation that she's planned for for probably years. And with each piece that she loses she gets more and more afraid that what she has planned and fought for is slipping out of her grasp. In a way she goes straight berserk in their last fight because she lacks the confidence and composure that she had when they first fought. Her body movement is quite ragged and there's a lot of desperation in it. She's afraid of going back to that orphaned girl that had nothing while she was wandering the streets alone and that's what she gets reduced to in the end. She's got nobody and I get the feeling that that's the last thing she wanted. I get the end resolution with her and it's why I honestly do feel sorry for her because she's essentially just reduced to this scared orphan once more. It's that human portion of her that I honestly wish the show portrayed more of.

 

[BKatastrophe]

I think when it comes to her breakdown I can at least make some sense out of it. Kuvira seems to make faces or react to things that aren't part of her plan, it's those tiny moments where she looses control. With the last two eps she's gradually losing control of a situation that she's planned for for probably years. And with each piece that she loses she gets more and more afraid that what she has planned and fought for is slipping out of her grasp. In a way she goes straight berserk in their last fight because she lacks the confidence and composure that she had when they first fought. Her body movement is quite ragged and there's a lot of desperation in it. She's afraid of going back to that orphaned girl that had nothing while she was wandering the streets alone and that's what she gets reduced to in the end. She's got nobody and I get the feeling that that's the last thing she wanted. I get the end resolution with her and it's why I honestly do feel sorry for her because she's essentially just reduced to this scared orphan once more. It's that human portion of her that I honestly wish the show portrayed more of.

And there you have it. It's all there, you're 100% correct and I noticed it more on my re-watch. Not only that, but she is a woman with a plan. That mech is another example of something that actually had build up to it. I shit you not. So it makes even more sense when you notice things aren't going the way she wanted. And when she gets betrayed. A lot.

 

[JadedWriter]

And there you have it. It's all there, you're 100% correct and I noticed it more on my re-watch. Not only that, but she is a woman with a plan. That mech is another example of something that actually had build up to it. I shit you not. So it makes even more sense when you notice things aren't going the way she wanted. And when she gets betrayed. A lot.

I honestly wished she'd flip out a little after Su first tried to kill her. Like for maybe a sentence or two her voice would crack here and there and then she reigns herself in to look in command for her troops, but she just keeps in control for her whole speech. I don't hate Kuvira, I just wish they portrayed her more as a human being. It would've been kind of cute if she collected stray animals on her journey. They're orphans too in a way so why not have a few just chilling on her train.

 

[Toa TAK]

 

[BKatastrophe]

I honestly wished she'd flip out a little after Su first tried to kill her. Like for maybe a sentence or two her voice would crack here and there and then she reigns herself in to look in command for her troops, but she just keeps in control for her whole speech. I don't hate Kuvira, I just wish they portrayed her more as a human being. It would've been kind of cute if she collected stray animals on her journey. They're orphans too in a way so why not have a few just chilling on her train.

 

[Kinvara]

This was because they also knew the Germans were working on it. It was quite literally an arms race. First one to that finish line won. Germany were also working on a stealth bomber design so they could nuke New York. Kuvira just did it to do it so she could have a big stick so she could intimidate the world with.

Which is pretty much what the US did with the atomic bomb after WWII (USSR was the main target really). I don't think it's an accurate assessment to say that the US merely began development of the atomic bomb solely because Nazi Germany was doing it. A super weapon greatly enhances the perceived strength of any nation/country. It has huge diplomatic sway.

The Earth Kingdom was very weak (before and) after the queen's assassination. Having a super weapon at your disposal quickly establishes your country's strength to others.

Kuvira's was making sure her nation wasn't being perceived as weak and being taken advantage of. That much was made clear when I watched it at least.

Kuvira doesn't have the on paper history nor culture nor widespread influence nor intrigue nor constituency nor responsibilities nor character of mid-20th century America.

You compared the US at the precipice of ultimate world power to a fictional person that got all of 90 minutes of screen time. As characters go, one is not quite as developed as the other.

and that's the thing: Kuvira wears these real world parallels on her sleeve, but no work is done to make her own these things. Running concentration camps doesn't make you driven, it just makes you look like Nazi Germany.

Of course real world history is more complex than a cartoon.And is not related to what I'm talking about.

There is no evidence to suggest that Kuvira was running Nazi-style concentration camps. They were prisons. Sure it's an injustice to throw a bunch of dissenters/minorities in prison but people weren't being sent to gas chambers.

 

[JadedWriter]

I find her to be quite human, so I tend to just brain storm up quirks for her from time to time. Even dictators like animals.

Which is pretty much what the US did with the atomic bomb after WWII (USSR was the main target really). I don't think it's an accurate assessment to say that the US merely began development of the atomic bomb solely because Nazi Germany was doing it. A super weapon greatly enhances the perceived strength of any nation/country. It has huge diplomatic sway.

The Earth Kingdom was very weak (before and) after the queen's assassination. Having a super weapon at your disposal quickly establishes your country's strength to others.

Kuvira's was making sure her nation wasn't being perceived as weak and being taken advantage of. That much was made clear when I watched it at least.

I'm not doubting that assessment and even Varrick stated that the vine technology had beneficial aspects, but Kuvira mainly just had him chasing after the weaponized version. She didn't give a single fuck about it as an energy source though. In all honesty if she had put time into researching both it would've given true independence to the earth kingdom while also making relations with them mandatory because every nation would've wanted a piece of that vine tech as an energy source. Once you factor in the potential trade agreements with that I think she actually could've kept her position.

 

[Trey]

There is no evidence to suggest that Kuvira was running Nazi-style concentration camps. They were prisons. Sure it's an injustice to throw a bunch of dissenters/minorities in prison but people weren't being sent to gas chambers.

We wouldn't know. Because the "re-education camps" thing was literally only thrown in there to make Kuvira seem like more of a villain. Her thought process is not explained. The nature of the camps were not revealed. It has little to do with her as a person other than to unnecessarily reinforce the notion that she doesn't let any one get in her way.

Which is why it's superficial, and we disparage it by calling its writing "mustache-twirling villainy."

 

[Toa TAK]

I'd say everything regarding Kuvira's characterization and her actions are superficial.

All these real-world parallels are wasted on her, just like every other time the show does this. Crap writing.

 

[JadedWriter]

We wouldn't know. Because the "re-education camps" thing was literally only thrown in there to make Kuvira seem like more of a villain. Her thought process is not explained. The nature of the camps were not revealed. It has little to do with her as a person other than to unnecessarily reinforce the notion that she doesn't let any one get in her way.

Which is why it's superficial, and we disparage it by calling its writing "mustache-twirling villainy."

It's a point that they didn't even need to reinforce because from the outset she seemed like a person that would not let anything get in her way from achieving her goals. She just has reeducation camps because Chairman Mao had reeducation camps, she got the labor camps just to throw in a dash of Stalin as well.

 

[Kinvara]

I just don't get why Kuvira gets scrutinized while Ozai gets a pass.

Ozai is probably the worst antagonist of A:TLA.

We wouldn't know. Because the "re-education camps" thing was literally only thrown in there to make Kuvira seem like more of a villain. Her thought process is not explained. The nature of the camps were not revealed. It has little to do with her as a person other than to unnecessarily reinforce the notion that she doesn't let any one get in her way.

Which is why it's superficial, and we disparage it by calling its writing "mustache-twirling villainy."

It was stated repeatedly that they were prisons. Throwing potential traitors into prison is not out of character for a dictator.

If anything, it's relatively tame.

 

[SilentMatthew]

The US simultaneously developed the atomic bomb and put Japanese-Americans in internment camps.

What is the difference here with Kuvira?

The one major difference is context and reasoning behind those two actions. Kuvira lacked both. In the case of the US, the reasoning/logic they used to intern Japanese-Americans is because they are identified as an ethnicity of a homogeneous racial enemy. As for the development of the atomic bomb, combination of arms race and being active in a war.
Kuvira had no such reason for interning her minorities, since they do not represent any of her belligerents. As far as we are shown, she had no intention of fighting the Fire and/or Water nations. Whereas, the city-state she's attacking is a heterogeneous when it comes to people and interests. Finally, the case for major weapons such as her giant ass robot and spirit artillery piece are aligned with the typical arms race reasoning. That is similar, which I concede.

 

[JadedWriter]

I just don't get why Kuvira gets scrutinized while Ozai gets a pass.

Ozai is probably the worst antagonist of A:TLA.



It was stated repeatedly that they were prisons. Throwing potential traitors into prison is not out of character for a dictator.

If anything, it's relatively tame.

I thought they were forced labor camps. Or am I confusing the reeducation camps with where she imprisioned the non earth benders?

 

[Trey]

It was stated repeatedly that they were prisons. Throwing potential traitors into prison is not out of character for a dictator.

If anything, it's relatively tame.

Throwing potential traitors into prison isn't out of character for any government that has reasonable proof, and of course it's tame because you're characterizing it that way.

If that's your read of the situation, that's fine. I can't take that away from you, similar to how I can't take away Veelk's afrika bambaataa planet rock AtLA finale interpretation.

I can say that it's not well supported by the material. "Re-education camp" carries a lot more weight than simply calling it prison. It sounds closer to Lake Laogai.

 

[Kinvara]

Kuvira had no such reason for interning her minorities, since they do not represent any of her belligerents. As far as we are shown, she had no intention of fighting the Fire and/or Water nations. Whereas, the city-state she's attacking is a heterogeneous when it comes to people and interests. Finally, the case for major weapons such as her giant ass robot and spirit artillery piece are aligned with the typical arms race reasoning

Republic City plus the Water Tribes, Fire Nation etc. were shown to be actively undermining Earth Kingdom leadership by trying to get Wu on the throne as a puppet leader. It was explicitly stated as such.

I thought they were forced labor camps. Or am I confusing the reeducation camps with where she imprisioned the non earth benders?

They were referred to primarily as prisons. "Re-education camp" is merely a euphemism for that. I think "slave labor" might have been mentioned by Opal but she had a very negative view of Kuvira and was probably exaggerating. (Like with her family being tortured.)

 

[SilentMatthew]

I just don't get why Kuvira gets scrutinized while Ozai gets a pass.

Ozai is probably the worst antagonist of A:TLA.


.

Ozai did not need any more exposition of his character or the logic behind his action. In ATLA, we get to see how the Fire Nation foreign policy was formed by Roku's former best friend. Also, we seen most aspects of the Fire Nation from generals&governors to its grunts. Most importantly, we are shown his family and what they say about him and what his actions were towards them. From all of these bits we have a clear picture of Ozai's character. Which was basically a power hungry dictator. The problem with Kuvirva is they tease more grand ideas with her, but in the end we got blue balled.

 

[JadedWriter]

Throwing potential traitors into prison isn't out of character for any government that has reasonable proof, and of course it's tame because you're characterizing it that way.

If that's your read of the situation, that's fine. I can't take that away from you, similar to how I can't take away Veelk's afrika bambaataa planet rock AtLA finale interpretation.

I can say that it's not well supported by the material. "Re-education camp" carries a lot more weight than simply calling it prison. It sounds closer to Lake Laogai.

But everybody came out of Lake Laogai so happy.

 

[FeenixRising]

So, IGNs 2014 awards ended and Korra won their voters choice in three categories. Best Animated Series, Best Episode (Korra Alone), and Best TV Series.

As for the actual IGN Award, it won Best Animated Series.

 

[JadedWriter]

So, IGNs 2014 awards ended and Korra won's their voters choice in three categories. Best Animated Series, Best Episode (Korra Alone), and Best TV Series.

As for the actual IGN Award, it won Best Animated Series.

Dat Korrasami Borg Collective, but on the real I'm happy the show got recognized.

 

[Trey]

Korra Alone won best episode?

 

[Toa TAK]

I just don't get why Kuvira gets scrutinized while Ozai gets a pass.

Ozai is probably the worst antagonist of A:TLA.

Ozai blows (no pun intended) as a character and personalty. But the reason I'm willing to let him slide (despite him being so BORING), is that he works fine as a goal for the rest of the cast in the show. Everyone else is developed so well in the show. And in the case of Azula, Iroh, and Zuko who have a direct connection to Ozai, they're shaped by his actions and the consequences are carried throughout the show (Zuko wanting his love, Iroh being betrayed by his brother, and Azula being molded into the monster that her father approves of). Ozai works as a destination to the journey's end. He is the goal of the show, essentially. Everything bad that the Fire Nation does is through him, or continued from his father.

The thing about Kuvira is that they wanted to bring her in, say she's some sort of evil person, then say she's complicated, then vice versa, without anyone having any real connection to her. The Krew's lives weren't drastically shaped by her (except Bolin). Korra really doesn't have a personal beef with her that isn't her obligation to instill BALANCE in the world, Mako and Asami are doing their own thing regardless of whatever Kuvira was doing the past three years, and Bolin was more than happy to help her out. Even when he figured out she was nuts, he wasn't particularly hurt nor was the revelation anything bigger than trying to convince Opal he wasn't a bad dude. Even then, there wasn't as much weight to it as opposed to when Zuko finally figured out his dad was bad (it rhymes) and made the decision to tell him off and join the Gaang. Bataar Jr. had more of a realization then that, problem is he's useless right after. Hiroshi did more than him when it came to it. If there was anyone who should've had more focus, it should've been Suyin. Develop THAT. We're constantly being informed of their past relationship, but not even in Book 3 was it hinted at.

Ozai was never painted throughout the entire series as a guy with complexities. He was just a mad, power-hungry villain and they played it out to a T and didn't pretend otherwise. Not. One. Bit. Kuvira was She-Hitler until they said she was an orphan and just wanted to protect her people. Suddenly they wanted to switch gears on who she really was and it didn't fit the bill. Lack of a real background on Kuvira and her relationship to the main players is what killed her. If Kuvira was a She-Hitler played straight that would've been fine if the rest of the cast had their destinies riding on the line of her defeat. We didn't have that. That's why the finale was really a perfect analogy to the entire show: superficial. On the outside it does cool things and looks fantastic, but there's nothing underneath that propels it and makes you care for these people.

But yeah, as a plot device Ozai works better than Kuvira. Both are bad characters, but at least Ozai was utilized properly.

 

[SilentMatthew]

Republic City plus the Water Tribes, Fire Nation etc. were shown to be actively undermining Earth Kingdom leadership by trying to get Wu on the throne as a puppet leader. It was explicitly stated as such.

Eh, I don't find that holds much water. Especially since she was the one given the sole authority and sanctions to put Wu on the throne. As far as we know, the Republic City, Fire Nation, and Water Tribes did not have boots on the ground during Kuvira's campaign. As such, the minorities in the Earth Kingdom would not have any stake in a shakeup in the status quo when none of their fellow countrymen are in danger. The only way for their internment to make sense is that Kuvira explicitly plans to conquer the world instead of wanting a stable centralized government in the central continent. Or heavily implied, whichever.

 

[Omikaru]

Korra Alone won best episode?

Hey now, it was the best episode of Book 4. And a legitimately good episode in its own right.

 

[Trey]

"Best episode of book 4."

 

[Toa TAK]

Can someone put a link up, please?

 

[Kinvara]

Ozai did not need any more exposition of his character or the logic behind his action. In ATLA, we get to see how the Fire Nation foreign policy was formed by Roku's former best friend. Also, we seen most aspects of the Fire Nation from generals&governors to its grunts. Most importantly, we are shown his family and what they say about him and what his actions were towards them. From all of these bits we have a clear picture of Ozai's character. Which was basically a power hungry dictator. The problem with Kuvirva is they tease more grand ideas with her, but in the end we got blue balled.

Ozai was this shadowy menace in Book 1 and 2. This is what made him appealing at first as the ultimate antagonist. I was looking forward to seeing the man himself.

Then, in Book 3 it's revealed there isn't much to him. He's just evil. If anyone could be criticized as being "mustache twirling"- it's Ozai.

Ozai blows (no pun intended) as a character and personalty. But the reason I'm willing to let him slide (despite him being so BORING), is that he works fine as a goal for the rest of the cast in the show. Everyone else is developed so well in the show. And in the case of Azula, Iroh, and Zuko who have a direct connection to Ozai, they're shaped by his actions and the consequences are carried throughout the show (Zuko wanting his love, Iroh being betrayed by his brother, and Azula being molded into the monster that her father approves of). Ozai works as a destination to the journey's end. He is the goal of the show, essentially. Everything bad that the Fire Nation does is through him, or continued from his father.

The thing about Kuvira is that they wanted to bring her in, say she's some sort of evil person, then say she's complicated, then vice versa, without anyone having any real connection to her. The Krew's lives weren't drastically shaped by her (except Bolin). Korra really doesn't have a personal beef with her that isn't her obligation to instill BALANCE in the world, Mako and Asami are doing their own thing regardless of whatever Kuvira was doing the past three years, and Bolin was more than happy to help her out. Even when he figured out she was nuts, he wasn't particularly hurt nor was the revelation anything bigger than trying to convince Opal he wasn't a bad dude. Even then, there wasn't as much weight to it as opposed to when Zuko finally figured out his dad was bad (it rhymes) and made the decision to tell him off and join the Gaang. Bataar Jr. had more of a realization then that, problem is he's useless right after. Hiroshi did more than him when it came to it. If there was anyone who should've had more focus, it should've been Suyin. Develop THAT. We're constantly being informed of their past relationship, but not even in Book 3 was it hinted at.

Ozai was never painted throughout the entire series as a guy with complexities. He was just a mad, power-hungry villain and they played it out to a T and didn't pretend otherwise. Not. One. Bit. Kuvira was She-Hitler until they said she was an orphan and just wanted to protect her people. Suddenly they wanted to switch gears on who she really was and it didn't fit the bill. Lack of a real background on Kuvira and her relationship to the main players is what killed her. If Kuvira was a She-Hitler played straight that would've been fine if the rest of the cast had their destinies riding on the line of her defeat. We didn't have that. That's why the finale was really a perfect analogy to the entire show: superficial. On the outside it does cool things and looks fantastic, but there's nothing underneath that propels it and makes you care for these people.

But yeah, as a plot device Ozai works better than Kuvira. Both are bad characters, but at least Ozai was utilized properly.

This is a fair analysis to make.

Ozai does work better as a plot device but even with Kuvira's limited development I still find her more interesting.

With Kuvira, I can toy with ideas about the character's backstory and relationships. I enjoy hearing the headcanons about Kuvira and/or making up my own.

I can't do that with Ozai at all.

 

[SilentMatthew]

Ozai was this shadowy menace in Book 1 and 2. This is what made him appealing at first as the ultimate antagonist. I was looking forward to seeing the man himself.

Then, in Book 3 it's revealed there isn't much to him. He's just evil. If anyone could be criticized as being "mustache twirling"- it's Ozai.

Was there any setup that would describe Ozai otherwise? He burnt half of Zuko's face at a minor slight. Raised Azula to be... Azula. Promoted people to generals like Zhao. Heartlessly outmaneuvered his brother,Iroh, to be Firelord by maybe having his own father assassinated. He is the logical product of proto-fascism set by his forefathers. Whereas Kuvirva was given Hitler's mustache without any of that. That is why Kuvriva is so scrutinized, at least that is the reason(s) for me.

 

[Trey]

Then, in Book 3 it's revealed there isn't much to him. He's just evil. If anyone could be criticized as being "mustache twirling"- it's Ozai.

No one will disagree with this.

 

[Omikaru]

"Best episode of book 4."

Was there some episode I missed, or an OVA or something? Cuz I ain't seeing a better episode in Book 4.

 

[Trey]

Was there some episode I missed, or an OVA or something? Cuz I ain't seeing a better episode in Book 4.

After quickly consulting the episode list, I'm putting the finale, After All These Years, The Calling, Operation: Beifong and Reunion over Korra Alone.

I thought it was a stale episode, and emblematic of the relative disappointment season 4 was going to be.

 

[Daemul]

Dat Korrasami Borg Collective, but on the real I'm happy the show got recognized.

The power of Korrasami must not be underestimated.

 

[Moaradin]

Korra Alone won best episode?

I mean, it was one of the best episodes of the series. Seems pretty reasonable to say it was the best of Book 4.

 

[Kinvara]

Was there any setup that would describe Ozai otherwise? He burnt half of Zuko's face at a minor slight. Raised Azula to be... Azula. Promoted people to generals like Zhao. Heartlessly outmaneuvered his brother,Iroh, to be Firelord by maybe having his own father assassinated. He is the logical product of proto-fascism set by his forefathers. Whereas Kuvirva was given Hitler's mustache without any of that. That is why Kuvriva is so scrutinized, at least that is the reason(s) for me.

Azula is sadistic and cruel yet she manages to still have humanity/personality to her unlike Ozai.

 

[Trey]

I mean, it was one of the best episodes of the series.

 

[Hamlet]

Who here has that fake leak of "evil" opal beifong? Need that pic in my life.

All of her actions seemed in line with her goals to me.

At what point did you think that she went into "mustache" mode?

Here's one of them as Chariot made a whole bunch of Evil Opal pics ha.

Can someone put a link up, please?

Pretty good choice for best episode.

Best TV Episode
Best TV Series
Best TV Animated Series

 

[Toa TAK]

Pretty good choice for best episode.

Best TV Episode
Best TV Series
Best TV Animated Series

thank you!

 

[Omikaru]

I'm putting the finale, After All These Years, The Calling, Operation: Beifong and Reunion over Korra Alone.

 

[Toa TAK]

Finale and The Calling were the bomb.

 

[Trey]

Why do you folks like Korra Alone so much? I'm interested to know.

 

[Daemul]

I mean, it was one of the best episodes of the series.

 

[-Deimos]

Dats it.

Fight me.

Besides, the fuck does "overrated" mean in that context? Whose general opinion are you using to make the statement of "Rules of Nature is overrated"?

Bro, all you hear when MGR is brought up is "Rules of Nature this" and "Rules of Nature that".

Now let's go.

 

[Crocodile]

Ozai was this shadowy menace in Book 1 and 2. This is what made him appealing at first as the ultimate antagonist. I was looking forward to seeing the man himself.

Then, in Book 3 it's revealed there isn't much to him. He's just evil. If anyone could be criticized as being "mustache twirling"- it's Ozai.

"Mustache-Twirler" isn't inherently bad - it's an insult if its clear the writers didn't intend for said villain to be a mustache-twirler. Ozai isn't and was never a "character" per say but rather a looming, ever present force in the Avatar Universe who is connected to and strongly influences both the narrative and the main characters. The writers never ask you to really care about his motivations, his childhood, etc. but only his influence on the world around him. He forces the main characters into action, pressures them with effectively a "win by ____ or else" ultimatum and represents their end goal - nothing more. To that end, to his goal, he was written successfully. An apt comparison might be to Dio from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that I know some people in this thread are watching.

Kuvira, however, was clearly a character were were supposed to emphasize with and try to understand but they failed to really delve into her character and used a bunch of loaded imagery and language (the first thing when somebody says "re-education camp" IS NOT just a regular prison) to prop up her villainy. Her relationships to most of the cast are undercooked or only superficially explored (Suyin, Bataar, etc.), we are asked to believe her actions are tied to issues of abandonment (both herself and the Earth Kingdom) but the writing can't really bring it home. Worst of all, she just falls apart at the end. Neither her rise or her fall feel like they follow naturally from what very little we are told (not shown, TOLD) about her character.

That's why people call her a "mustache twirler" and use it as an insult. Because the way they set up her character and what not, its clear there was supposed to be more there but they didn't deliver. For Ozai, and successful villains in his archetype, they promised exactly X and delivered X. For Kuvira they promised Y (Y > X) and fell short.

 

[JadedWriter]

With Kuvira, I can toy with ideas about the character's backstory and relationships. I enjoy hearing the headcanons about Kuvira and/or making up my own.

I can't do that with Ozai at all.

I gotta agree with you on this. Some of the stuff I brain storm up with her is fun, Ozai, he's just a dick and no amount of brainstorming will make a guy that pretty much just inherited his dad's agenda an interesting person. His policies aren't even his, they're Sozin's and Azulon's.

After quickly consulting the episode list, I'm putting the finale, After All These Years, The Calling, Operation: Beifong and Reunion over Korra Alone.

I thought it was a stale episode, and emblematic of the relative disappointment season 4 was going to be.

Operation Beifong proves that you don't need Korra in an episode of Korra to make an episode of Korra a good episode of Korra.

 

[Trey]

"Mustache-Twirler" isn't inherently bad - it's an insult if its clear the writers didn't intend for said villain to be a mustache-twirler. Ozai isn't and was never a "character" per say but rather a looming, ever present force in the Avatar Universe who is connected to and strongly influences both the narrative and the main characters. The writers never ask you to really care about his motivations, his childhood, etc. but only his influence on the world around him. He forces the main characters into action, pressures them with effectively a "win by ____ or else" ultimatum and represents their end goal - nothing more. To that end, to his goal, he was written successfully. An apt comparison might be to Dio from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that I know some people in this thread are watching.

Kuvira, however, was clearly a character were were supposed to emphasize with and try to understand but they failed to really delve into her character and used a bunch of loaded imagery and language (the first thing when somebody says "re-education camp" IS NOT just a regular prison) to prop up her villainy. Her relationships to most of the cast are undercooked or only superficially explored (Suyin, Bataar, etc.), we are asked to believe her actions are tied to issues of abandonment (both herself and the Earth Kingdom) but the writing can't really bring it home. Worst of all, she just falls apart at the end. Neither her rise or her fall feel like they follow naturally from what very little we are told (not shown, TOLD) about her character.

That's why people call her a "mustache twirler" and use it as an insult. Because the way they set up her character and what not, its clear there was supposed to be more there but they didn't deliver. For Ozai, and successful villains in his archetype, they promised exactly X and delivered X. For Kuvira they promised Y (Y > X) and fell short.

Filing this away for the "good posts" retrospective I'll be doing on this community.

 

[JadedWriter]

"Mustache-Twirler" isn't inherently bad - it's an insult if its clear the writers didn't intend for said villain to be a mustache-twirler. Ozai isn't and was never a "character" per say but rather a looming, ever present force in the Avatar Universe who is connected to and strongly influences both the narrative and the main characters. The writers never ask you to really care about his motivations, his childhood, etc. but only his influence on the world around him. He forces the main characters into action, pressures them with effectively a "win by ____ or else" ultimatum and represents their end goal - nothing more. To that end, to his goal, he was written successfully. An apt comparison might be to Dio from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that I know some people in this thread are watching.

Kuvira, however, was clearly a character were were supposed to emphasize with and try to understand but they failed to really delve into her character and used a bunch of loaded imagery and language (the first thing when somebody says "re-education camp" IS NOT just a regular prison) to prop up her villainy. Her relationships to most of the cast are undercooked or only superficially explored (Suyin, Bataar, etc.), we are asked to believe her actions are tied to issues of abandonment (both herself and the Earth Kingdom) but the writing can't really bring it home. Worst of all, she just falls apart at the end. Neither her rise or her fall feel like they follow naturally from what very little we are told (not shown, TOLD) about her character.

That's why people call her a "mustache twirler" and use it as an insult. Because the way they set up her character and what not, its clear there was supposed to be more there but they didn't deliver. For Ozai, and successful villains in his archetype, they promised exactly X and delivered X. For Kuvira they promised Y (Y > X) and fell short.

Dio is such an awesome one note villain though. He's a fucking depraved lunatic that will do anything either to bask in his own ego or just to make a person suffer, I wouldn't put Ozai in that same category. Unless Ozai refers to himself as "I, the mighty Ozai" it will just never be an apt comparison to me.

 

[Crocodile]

Dio is such an awesome one note villain though. He's a fucking depraved lunatic that will do anything either to bask in his own ego or just to make a person suffer, I wouldn't put Ozai in that same category. Unless Ozai refers to himself as "I, the mighty Ozai" it will just never be an apt comparison to me.

I wasn't talking about quality of execution (I'd agree that Dio >>> Ozai in terms of being a fun villain) but rather villain archetype. Literally all you need to know about Dio's character is at the end of the first episode he BURNS A DOG ALIVE out of spite. All you need to know about Ozai's character is that he burns his OWN SON son and permanently scars him for life over spite. There isn't a ton to their characters but the way they and the story is written, that's all you need to know about them for them to be effective.

 

[JadedWriter]

I wasn't talking about quality of execution (I'd agree that Dio >>> Ozai in terms of being a fun villain) but rather villain archetype. Literally all you need to know about Dio's character is at the end of the first episode he BURNS A DOG ALIVE out of spite. All you need to know about Ozai's character is that he burns his OWN SON son and permanently scars him for life over spite. There isn't a ton to their characters but the way they and the story is written, that's all you need to know about them for them to be effective.

Dio got summed up when he kicked John's dog in the face just to fuck with the guy. Everything after that is just sadistic icing on the cake. But don't worry I know exactly what you're talking about though. Dio was just too damn fun though. Ozai at the very least gave Zuko a chance at redemption. Dio afterwards was just like, "Lol time to fuck with your girl."

 

[Kinvara]

"Mustache-Twirler" isn't inherently bad - it's an insult if its clear the writers didn't intend for said villain to be a mustache-twirler. Ozai isn't and was never a "character" per say but rather a looming, ever present force in the Avatar Universe who is connected to and strongly influences both the narrative and the main characters. The writers never ask you to really care about his motivations, his childhood, etc. but only his influence on the world around him. He forces the main characters into action, pressures them with effectively a "win by ____ or else" ultimatum and represents their end goal - nothing more. To that end, to his goal, he was written successfully. An apt comparison might be to Dio from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that I know some people in this thread are watching.

Kuvira, however, was clearly a character were were supposed to emphasize with and try to understand but they failed to really delve into her character and used a bunch of loaded imagery and language (the first thing when somebody says "re-education camp" IS NOT just a regular prison) to prop up her villainy. Her relationships to most of the cast are undercooked or only superficially explored (Suyin, Bataar, etc.), we are asked to believe her actions are tied to issues of abandonment (both herself and the Earth Kingdom) but the writing can't really bring it home. Worst of all, she just falls apart at the end. Neither her rise or her fall feel like they follow naturally from what very little we are told (not shown, TOLD) about her character.

That's why people call her a "mustache twirler" and use it as an insult. Because the way they set up her character and what not, its clear there was supposed to be more there but they didn't deliver. For Ozai, and successful villains in his archetype, they promised exactly X and delivered X. For Kuvira they promised Y (Y > X) and fell short.

I suppose that's fair.

But with Kuvira, I could see the warped logic behind why she did the things she did. I knew she would have to be defeated by Korra in the end but she had a point. I can't say that Kuvira was 100% in the wrong.

On the other hand with Ozai, there isn't anything I can understand. He's just out to conquer the world. He's just an evil that had to be taken care of.

I gotta agree with you on this. Some of the stuff I brain storm up with her is fun, Ozai, he's just a dick and no amount of brainstorming will make a guy that pretty much just inherited his dad's agenda an interesting person. His policies aren't even his, they're Sozin's and Azulon's.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of interesting takes on Kuvira's relationship with the Beifongs esp. Suyin and Baatar Jr. of course.

 

[JadedWriter]

I suppose that's fair.

But with Kuvira, I could see the warped logic behind why she did the things she did. I knew she would have to be defeated by Korra in the end but she had a point. I can't say that Kuvira was 100% in the wrong.

On the other hand with Ozai, there isn't anything I can understand. He's just out to conquer the world. He's just an evil that had to be taken care of.



Yeah, I've heard a lot of interesting takes on Kuvira's relationship with the Beifongs esp. Suyin and Baatar Jr. of course.

Yeah Kuvira technically isn't wrong, she was wrong in how she took it too far, but she lacked guidance...I've had arguments over my whole view on the topic, but she wasn't wrong in wanting to take action. The Bataar relationship gets viewed as psuedo incestuous depending on who you talk to. Though season 3 never made it look like Su and Kuvira were close with how she just barked orders at her, but in some ways I think Kuvira just wanted to be accepted into that family the way she wasn't accepted into her biological family. Su built something that Kuvira wanted, Kuvira most likely just didn't know what it took to actually form a family.