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The Sega master system appreciation thread of SegaScope 3D!

D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
ResidentDante said:
Edit: Quick question D.Lo: Will you be doing a 16-bit Nintendo and Sega controller write up or are you strictly a 8-bitter? :)
Click to expand...
I could eventually lol. Much shorter list though.

Nintendo effectively had a single controller the entire generation, visual changes aside. Controller cord length and the concave X/Y on the American pad are the only actual functional changes.

Sega mostly had three, the original fatty 3 button, the Japanese 6 button and the western 6 button. Various colours and controller cord lengths for different territories. There are also optional 3 and 6 button wireless official pads, but they never shipped with a console so aren't really 'standards'.

NEC had only two to start with, PCE pad and the second edition which added the turbo switches, and various colours of the latter. Plus the two official 6 button pads at the end.
 
ResidentDante

ResidentDante

Member
D.Lo said:
I could eventually lol. Much shorter list though.

Nintendo effectively had a single controller the entire generation, visual changes aside. Controller cord length and the concave X/Y on the American pad are the only actual functional changes.

Sega mostly had three, the original fatty 3 button, the Japanese 6 button and the western 6 button. Various colours and controller cord lengths for different territories. There are also optional 3 and 6 button wireless official pads, but they never shipped with a console so aren't really 'standards'.

NEC had only two to start with, PCE pad and the second edition which added the turbo switches, and various colours of the latter. Plus the two official 6 button pads at the end.
Click to expand...

True. There really wasn't that much variation. Didn't know the japanese and western six buttons were different though!
 
@

@MUWANdo

Banned
Here's some news that recently came out about Sega's second 3D Classics compilation for 3DS that I haven't seen posted in this thread:

In addition to stereo 3D conversions of Maze Walker and Fantasy Zone 2, they're including a 3D conversion of the SMS port of the first Fantasy Zone as a bonus unlockable for people who own both compilations.

What's especially noteworthy about this conversion of FZ is that M2 has added FM sound support to the game--it's an authentic new sound source created by analysing the FZ2 sound driver and porting it back into the first game, and the FM music was manually arranged, not merely converted from PSG through software like a lot of FM SMS music.

They'd initially planned for the stereo 3D conversions of FZ/FZ2 to be theoretically compatible with the 3-D Glasses on real hardware; I don't think they ended up going all the way with that idea, but the FM music should theoretically work on real hardware with an FM unit.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
yeah...as a Fantasy Zone fan, that's amazing! hopeful for whenever the 3DS is cracked wide enough open to warrant importing that collection, damn
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
The 3DS is in desperate need of retail games, so it makes no sense that they refused to bring them over imo.

Anyways, I know I have heard that Alex Kidd: The Lost Stars was actually released in arcades before Miracle World on the Master System, and thus making it the first game in the series. On wikipedia, it says 86 for both, with Miracle World first. But does anybody know for certain?
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
wow, nice appreciation thread!

i loved choplifter thought it played like the arcade as well as space harrier. wonder boy in monster land too.
i felt double dragon was more accurate port than the nes,
transbot was also neat
zillion and 2 were great.

the one game i hated was shinobi, i rocked that with a quarter in the arcades all the time.
was so disappointed in the port.

the only thing i hated was the diagonals on the controller drove me nuts.
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
Morfeo said:
I think Shinobi was decent. Now, Shadow Dancer on the other hand, was some bullshit.
Click to expand...

i never knew shadow dancer came out for it. i'm going to sample it tonight on Fusion.

update: i tried it. first thing, saw a little ash tray sized fire looking ring on the floor... dead. What the??? the intro shows a dog, Where's my dog???
anyways, i got to the first boss and that was enough.
 
A

AmyS

Member
Enjoy more SMS awesomeness :)

Z4FvYbK.jpg


3SCVRNO.jpg


4X5UcQv.jpg


YIpUKHT.jpg


9sWfqgF.jpg
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
davidwhangchoi said:
i never knew shadow dancer came out for it. i'm going to sample it tonight on Fusion.

update: i tried it. first thing, saw a little ash tray sized fire looking ring on the floor... dead. What the??? the intro shows a dog, Where's my dog???
anyways, i got to the first boss and that was enough.
Click to expand...

Right? I actually managed to beat the first level and that boss, but could never progress through level 2. Seems pretty beatable, just slow and boring unfortunately :(

Edit: Which magazine are those scans from? The Pshyco Fox comparison to SMB2 is ridiculous lol.
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
Morfeo said:
Right? I actually managed to beat the first level and that boss, but could never progress through level 2. Seems pretty beatable, just slow and boring unfortunately :(

Edit: Which magazine are those scans from? The Pshyco Fox comparison to SMB2 is ridiculous lol.
Click to expand...

lol, i'm just going to play the arcade rom, but yeah, shinobi was better shadow dancer on the master system. i just didn't like how you can barely fire one shot at a time (maybe two) and that bomb rolling power up was really slow.

That's from an early version of EGM but i believe the magazine was called something else before being named Electronic Gaming Monthly.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Morfeo said:
Edit: Which magazine are those scans from? The Pshyco Fox comparison to SMB2 is ridiculous lol.
Click to expand...
Ed Semrad was the editor of EGM.

The Psycho Fox comparison is fairly apt honestly, it was a pretty blatant answer to SMB2, it's a platformer with a 'pick up and throw enemies' mechanic, and four selectable characters with different speeds/jumps etc.
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
Fatnick said:
You have to hold down and the life icon turns into the dog. Pressing fire then releases him.
Click to expand...

thanks! i figured out how to do ninja magic on my own, didn't realize there was a button combo for the dog, (follows you around in the arcade) i'll fire it up and try out the dog=)
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
D.Lo said:
Ed Semrad was the editor of EGM.

The Psycho Fox comparison is fairly apt honestly, it was a pretty blatant answer to SMB2, it's a platformer with a 'pick up and throw enemies' mechanic, and four selectable characters with different speeds/jumps etc.
Click to expand...

wow, never did get around to playing that one but had no idea it was so blatant, haha
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
As much as I love the Master System and Mega Drive, it did feel like a lot of titles were "influenced" by their competitors. Kind of why I think Saturn's my favorite era for Sega's 1st party. Felt the most creative for me.
 
ResidentDante

ResidentDante

Member
MikeMyers said:
As much as I love the Master System and Mega Drive, it did feel like a lot of titles were "influenced" by their competitors. Kind of why I think Saturn's my favorite era for Sega's 1st party. Felt the most creative for me.
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A lot of games were influenced by each other back then and more obviously so then than now because of the technical limitations. I really think Sega was creative on the Mega Drive and with better titles as such than on the Saturn, and similar to the SS-era they brought in a lot of their arcade titles to both MS and MD. I feel like a lot of the best titles on MD were made for that console and not just ports of arcade titles like on the SS.

Their strongest creativity was always in the arcades imo though, pushing new gameplay and cutting edge graphics constantly through the 90's.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Sega were the kings of originality in arcades, constantly innovating in technology and gameplay.

But when it came to console style games, they were often pretty brazen in their imitation of Nintendo and others lol. The games came out quite well in some cases, but you could see so many were direct answers to Famicom/NES games.

Alex Kidd was a clear answer to Super Mario
Zillion was an answer to Metroid
Safari Hunt a direct answer to Duck Hunt
Golvellius was an answer to Zelda, and Golden Axe Warrior the most blatant clone possible
Vampire: Master of Darkness was a clean answer to Dracula/Castlevania

It's not like today where genres have 'hardened' to the point you can't say which shooter is the most influential one. The NES versions of the above games were mostly new original game designs at the time, so similar games coming out in their wake, despite having their own twists, was much more of a thing.

And the consoles? SG1000 II (and Mark III) had Famicom ripoff controllers and docks just like the Famicom. The Light Phaser looked exactly like the Zapper.

Compare this Samsung-like behaviour to the arcades at the time, where Sega were blowing minds with stuff like Space Harrier and Super Hang On. I think Space Harrier was the single most impressive for the time game I ever saw.

Mega Drive was a bit different, because it started as an arcade focused machine. In fact I daresay the 'influence' was a relatively equal two way street in the 16 bit department, I think of Donkey Kong Country as Nintendo's answer to Sonic, for example. And Sega had to 'go it alone' against Nintendo plus their (at the time) strong 3rd party stable, so while Bare Knuckle was their answer to Final Fight, it was more home territory for them as an arcade developer.

Still, I love SG1000/MIII/Master System anyway. Much more than Mega Drive. It's just my favourite period for games.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
I agree that in arcades, Sega truly is king (and Namco will always be a poor man's Sega). One of the rare times commercial success actually matched the quality of the product. But yeah, some of the Master System consumer titles were good, but it's clear where the inspiration is from.

Overall I prefer Mega Drive over Master System. The Mega Drive does have a lot of good stuff, like Ristar and Comix Zone, but there were titles like Eternal Champions that were clearly more commercialized and cashing in on what is the current trend. Not to diss the system though. I consider it one of the best systems of all time. Super Hang-On is still my favourite arcade game.
 
F

Fatnick

Member
To be fair to Sega, though you can see where the inspiration came from, the games weren't exactly cheap cash-ins. There's no copy more blatant than Streets of Rage...but Who would want to take Final Fight if you had to choose one or the other?

Another good example: Asterix! You can see the SMB3 influence, but the way the levels are adapted to the different characters is really clever.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Considering how the SNES port of Final Fight turned out, yeah I'd go with Streets of Rage.

Also Sega games have the best music ever. Even got the King of Pop to compose for them!
 
B

baudelinog

Member
Of course there were a lot of copy-paste in games in the NES-Master System era, but who minds? I absolutely don't. I just want to enjoy gaming, and I want to play good games. These were my thoughts back then, the same as now.

Also, I really think that, not having the same amazing amount of titles as the NES (the difference is not THAT big as some may think: about 700 licensed titles on the NES, about 350 on the Master System), the Master Sytem had some titles really "innovative" for the 8-bit market: all the Sega arcade ports among them, or some titles that the NES never received or were just avoidable: Populous, Super Kick Off, Sensible Soccer...

The Master System is my most beloved system ever. Reason could be those were the years I really enjoyed gaming. But I prefer the Master system over the NES, now and ever. Memories playing R-Type, Golvellius, Super Kick Off, Populous, Spellcaster (another amazing rarity), Shinobi, all the WonderBoys, the first two Sonics...

Let me say something most of you will not approve: I prefer the Shinobi port for the Master System over the arcade original. And, yes: I played both, and a lot. And I beat none of the two (that last boss...). I just LOVE that "pixel gameplay" in the Master system version, you just feel in control of everything, I LOVE this version.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
baudelinog said:
Also, I really think that, not having the same amazing amount of titles as the NES (the difference is not THAT big as some may think: about 700 licensed titles on the NES, about 350 on the Master System)
Click to expand...
That's very disingenuous comparison. To get 350 you have to count all regions combined for Mark III/Master System/GamBoy. Your 700ish NES games figure is US only - for comparison I think the Master System had 114 games released in the US.

Famicom alone has 1,051 licenced games, and if you go cross region for Famicom/NES you get something like 2000 or more (not counting the same core game twice, eg Castlevania/Akumajou Dracula or Mario 2/USA). There are also hundreds of unlicensed retail released games worldwide (like Tengen Tetris etc). And the vast majority of the 30 or so unlicensed Mark III games are Korean 'GamBoy' releases which are just straight MSX to SG1000 dumps, not even really Mark III games.

I think it's likely the Famicom/NES had almost as many unlicened games released at retail as the Master System had total releases. There's just no contest in library.

Let me say something most of you will not approve: I prefer the Shinobi port for the Master System over the arcade original. And, yes: I played both, and a lot. And I beat none of the two (that last boss...). I just LOVE that "pixel gameplay" in the Master system version, you just feel in control of everything, I LOVE this version.
Click to expand...
Yeah look I like Mark III Shinobi well enough, especially with the FM soundtrack, but the arcade game is better by a decent margin. They're quite different games however, similar levels but play completely differently, MIII one is much more methodical.

MikeMyers said:
Also Sega games have the best music ever. Even got the King of Pop to compose for them!
Click to expand...
Arcade: Yes. Rivalled only by Konami.
Mega Drive: Sometimes.
Master System (PSG only) Nooooooooooo.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
MikeMyers said:
PSG?
Click to expand...
The regular MS sound chip. It's pretty ancient and crappy because they basically just kept the primitive SG1000 sound hardware. It's the same basic one as the BBC Micro, ColecoVision etc. Mega Drive has it as a second sound chip along with the FM chip.

Famicom has better sound hardware out of the box and came out two years earlier.
 
F

Fatnick

Member
D.Lo said:
The regular MS sound chip. It's pretty ancient and crappy because they basically just kept the primitive SG1000 sound hardware. It's the same basic one as the BBC Micro, ColecoVision etc. Mega Drive has it as a second sound chip along with the FM chip.

Famicom has better sound hardware out of the box and came out two years earlier.
Click to expand...

Mind you, Janet Jackson still got a number 1 single out of it (not using the original hardware, admittedly)
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Come to think about it, clips from the Zillion anime is featured in Micheal and Janet's "Scream" video. I wonder if they were fans of the Master System game? Given MJ was a well known Sega fan, even before Sonic debuted.

Gotta love how despite being a Sony employee, he stuck with Sega until the end. Now that's dedication.
 
R

retroman

Member
baudelinog said:
Let me say something most of you will not approve: I prefer the Shinobi port for the Master System over the arcade original. And, yes: I played both, and a lot. And I beat none of the two (that last boss...). I just LOVE that "pixel gameplay" in the Master system version, you just feel in control of everything, I LOVE this version.
Click to expand...

I approve :)

The arcade version of Shinobi is great, but I also prefer the Master System version. Because of the weapon upgrades and life bar (instead of one-hit deaths), the gameplay feels quite different. It's a bit more laid-back than the twitchy arcade original. It kinda laid the blueprint for the gameplay of The Revenge Of Shinobi, if you think about it.
 
B

baudelinog

Member
D.Lo said:
That's very disingenuous comparison. To get 350 you have to count all regions combined for Mark III/Master System/GamBoy. Your 700ish NES games figure is US only - for comparison I think the Master System had 114 games released in the US.

Famicom alone has 1,051 licenced games, and if you go cross region for Famicom/NES you get something like 2000 or more (not counting the same core game twice, eg Castlevania/Akumajou Dracula or Mario 2/USA). There are also hundreds of unlicensed retail released games worldwide (like Tengen Tetris etc). And the vast majority of the 30 or so unlicensed Mark III games are Korean 'GamBoy' releases which are just straight MSX to SG1000 dumps, not even really Mark III games.

I think it's likely the Famicom/NES had almost as many unlicened games released at retail as the Master System had total releases. There's just no contest in library.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought "Do I write it? Don't?". I just didn't think enough, "Let's go!". It was just an approach based on the Wiki data (lists of games of the NES and the Master System) and some other sites. I did not look the Famicom data (great mistake!!!!), so let's say there could be about 1300 NES/Famicom differente licensed games max (700 USA/PAL, 1000 Japan, at least 400 licensed both for the NES and for the Famicom). It's an enormous difference (350-1300), much bigger than I suggested. In our PAL market not so much, but a little more of the double anyway. Quality wise? It depends on what you like the most.


The NES music chip is far better than the Master System one; when I heard Journey to Silus I was genuinely amazed. It was the only thing that I was jelous of. That, Megaman, and Blades of Steel! Anyway; even with that poor music chip (PSG), the Master System gave us some amazing tunes. I'm preparing a thread with the best Master System PSG music... will I conclude someday?
 
R

Rlan

Member
Interesting factoid: The robot on the Transbot cover actually has a lot more art to him than the box would lead you to believe. In fact it's only used on the Brazillian version of the game, where it's called Nuclear Creature.

800px-TransBot_EU_cover.jpg

800px-TransBot_SMS_BR2_Box.jpg


It's still an awful picture, but I guess he's not just giving the Nazi salute anymore. Wonder how much other art there is out there like that. Maybe that Pro Wrestling guy was actually wrestling someone and not just his own head!
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Rlan said:
It's still an awful picture, but I guess he's not just giving the Nazi salute anymore.
Click to expand...
I was going to say calling that 'art' was a stretch!

Lol at 'Nuclear Creature' too. What does that have to do with a Macross style spaceship.

Here's my much nicer Japanese copy:
IMG_5614e9aff.jpg

IMG_5615866fe.jpg
Click to expand...

And as a bonus, the even better looking cover art of the SG1000 game it's a sequel to, Orguss.
IMG_56175d2eb.jpg
Click to expand...
 
L

lazygecko

Member
baudelinog said:
The NES music chip is far better than the Master System one; when I heard Journey to Silus I was genuinely amazed. It was the only thing that I was jelous of. That, Megaman, and Blades of Steel! Anyway; even with that poor music chip (PSG), the Master System gave us some amazing tunes. I'm preparing a thread with the best Master System PSG music... will I conclude someday?
Click to expand...

The PSG sound chip is a general purpose third party tech which predates the NES by several years (I think it was invented in 1979), whereas the NES sound chip was custom-built by Nintendo's in-house musicians to suit their needs, so it's little surprise that it's better.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
flak57 said:
Why does Zillion get compared to Metroid so much? The game is practically Impossible Mission with guns -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivHFP3dJAkM

That's clearly where 99.999999% of the inspiration lies.
Click to expand...
Oh it is totally an Impossible Mission clone.

But positioning-wise, it was their 'sprawling space adventure'. It's a thematic answer, not a gameplay one. Alex Kidd doesn't really play like Super Mario Bros either, but was clearly created to evoke the same themes.
 
F

flak57

Member
D.Lo said:
Oh it is totally an Impossible Mission clone.

But positioning-wise, it was their 'sprawling space adventure'. It's a thematic answer, not a gameplay one. Alex Kidd doesn't really play like Super Mario Bros either, but was clearly created to evoke the same themes.
Click to expand...

Ah that makes more sense, was wondering on some of your comparisons. I guess I should have seen that with the Sonic/DKC comparison though!
 
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