Dissing the Light Phaser. tsk.
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The Sega master system appreciation thread of SegaScope 3D!
- Thread starter catmincer
- Start date
Dissing the Light Phaser. tsk.
RoryDropkick
Member
Well, glad I bought most of these before the market starts spiking further.. not to mention my Everdrive is on the way..
Infernal Monkey
Member
Huh, despite the video's length it feels like they barely covered anything here. Very few games mentioned. Oh well, fun watch regardless. Always nice to see the Master System get more love.
D.Lo
Member
As usual, Metal Jesus sucks.
One of my favourite games on the system. Much better than the original!
Shin Johnpv
Member
Yeah I was expecting more meat from that video with it's length. Talk about games who gives a fuck about system boxes.
Probably because Mater System wasn't as popular.
But it is strange, because for example in Brasil Master System sold A LOT more than Nes. But there you have the developers of Oniken and Odallus, games like the NES ones.
What exactly would constitute a Master System style game? Pretty much anything that gives off the impression of appearing less than 16-bit gets relegated to being called NES style, regardless if it is inspired by the particular hardware limitations or not.
For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QODvkEdQkE
This game is a Game Gear style game: The pallete, the resolution, are really similar to Game Gear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLVZ9VwSoY
This game explains so nice each type of style of games.
Odallus, Oniken, Shovel Knight, Jett Gunner, Manos, Dark Void Zero, Cyber Shadow and a lot more are Nes style games.
Castle in the Darkness is a game that makes me doubt. MSX? Master System?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QODvkEdQkE
This game is a Game Gear style game: The pallete, the resolution, are really similar to Game Gear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLVZ9VwSoY
This game explains so nice each type of style of games.
Odallus, Oniken, Shovel Knight, Jett Gunner, Manos, Dark Void Zero, Cyber Shadow and a lot more are Nes style games.
Castle in the Darkness is a game that makes me doubt. MSX? Master System?
D.Lo
Member
Brazil is a weird thing, selling as a budget system to a poorer market after both systems had faded in the main markets, and even then the MS only sold more than the official NES. NES/Famicom clones vastly outsold the Master System in Brazil. Essentially the Segas sold there were Master System clones too, not made by Sega, it's just that they were licensed, unlike the Famiclones.
If you add in clones in Asia and Eastern Europe, the Famicom/NES probably sold well over 100 million consoles. Fami clones were the biggest seller until the mid 2000s in all of Asia and Eastern Europe and most of South America. Between official and clones, the Famicom probably sold 10:1 over the Mark III/MS worldwide.
They also have roughly equal graphics, as the Mark III was literally just designed to get the SG1000 up to Famicom spec graphically. Both can do some things slightly better than the other, but the Fami/NES was pushed a lot harder because it had better memory usage (tile flipping), supported mappers and on-cart chips, and was more successful so later had much bigger carts. As a result the best Famicom graphics look far better than the M3/MS's best, and the MS (without FM) has much worse sound.
The Famicom/NES game sound/look is just more defined and iconic for both technical and sales reasons.
This does look kind of Game Gear like. And is very Wonder Boy. I think it's just kind of simplistic 'my first pixel art' though, it looks worse than say Wonder Boy on Game Gear. But the creatures are definitely westone inspired.
It's like 90% Famicom/NES. It just doesn't quite stick to the NES aesthetic correctly, some 16-bit elements have crept in.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, wish idve picked up that loose cart of Psycho Fox for like $20, the scene's shooting up even without MJR...man i hope my master everdrive gets here soon
also i had a trade going for another SMS (the earlier model i'd wanted) but the guy says the case is all cracked, is it hard swapping SMS cases?
also i had a trade going for another SMS (the earlier model i'd wanted) but the guy says the case is all cracked, is it hard swapping SMS cases?
D.Lo
Member
Super easy.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah? is it just screws & swapping bits? maybe i should go ahead with it then
I'm ashamed to say this, but I still don't have a SMS or any SMS games. It's one of the only retro systems I've always been curious about but still don't own.
I was thinking I'd grab a Power Base Converter plus one of those FM-Sound compatible converters plus 2 controllers so that all of my bases are covered as far as compatibility is concerned. Would I still be able to output from my model 1 genesis in SCART with full RGB? Would it be better to just grab an original SMS instead?
I'm specifically interested in North American games.
I was thinking I'd grab a Power Base Converter plus one of those FM-Sound compatible converters plus 2 controllers so that all of my bases are covered as far as compatibility is concerned. Would I still be able to output from my model 1 genesis in SCART with full RGB? Would it be better to just grab an original SMS instead?
I'm specifically interested in North American games.
D.Lo
Member
Crisis Force, Gradius II, Recca, Batman Return of the Joker, Little Samson, Super Contra all outclass the M3/MS's best IMO. Sound wise the Famicom probably has 90 of the top 100 soundtracks of the generation too."As a result the best Famicom graphics look far better than the M3/MS's best"
For me, the only game from Famicom with good graphics is Kirby, so, other examples please.
Now keep in mind the achievements on Famicom were often via memory mappers and expansion chips, expandability was one of the Fami's hardware advantages not possible on M3. And developers learned the hardware inside out. That said your average Japan-developed M3 game definitely looked better than your average Famicom game. Western developed games were usually worse on both systems (with some exceptions eg Rare and Software Creations).
Yes works perfectly. The Mega Drive is literally a Mark III with extra chips, it is hardware backward compatible.
The only thing you'll be missing is the ability to play SG1000 games.
Recca is an interesting example, because is one of the latest games on NES and it did some really nice things, but I don't think nor this game or Crisis Core or Nemesis 2 are nicer than Power Strike 2, RType or Sagaia (and of course Fantasy Zone 1-2F).
I don't think Batman Return of the Joker is nicer than Batman Returns, even when it has bigger sprites.
Related to Little Samson, I don't feel it as a special game (appart from how rare it is now).
And Super Contra... I have to say that Master System has not a good list of run & gun games, but you have Zillion 2, Spellcaster, and other games that make a good work on it.
Related to european developers... Core did interesting things on Master System (Chuck Rock 2), Bit Managers did a good Smurfs game, Tekmagik did a really nice work with The Newzealand Story, Shadow of the Beast, Populous or Pacmania, Probe did some good games, Codemasters too, Virgin, Graftgold, ...
Yep, Kung Fu Kid was lots of fun! One of my most-played Master System games, along with Shinobi and Wonder Boy III.
The NES was more popular than the SMS, so the "NES look" is emulated more often by indie devs. Which is a shame, because I vastly prefer the Master System's vibrant colours. IMHO the NES palette looks rather drab in comparison.
IrishNinja
Member
this master everdrive showed up! so cool, digging these SG 1000 games...anyone know how to access the options on it? its doing that thing where folders are displayed last in the menu, and resetting only stays in-game
IrishNinja
Member
oh, i just grabbed whatever was newest on krizz' product page, think it was .08 or something? and i figured since you only use 2 buttons, it's just that defaults like this - folders at the end of pages, resetting to stay in-game rather than back to the OS - are exactly what i turned off in every other everdrive, just hoping i can do so here somehow.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, exactly that
all my other everdrives have an option to make sure hitting the reset button goes back to the everdrive menu
all my other everdrives have an option to make sure hitting the reset button goes back to the everdrive menu
baudelinog
Member
Talking about graphics, I'm absolutely not with you in the first assertion. This is absolutely true, though: "... the Fami/NES was pushed a lot harder...". The Fami/NES was a lot more popular, the developers had more time in more occasions to work with it, and there were support chips in various titles. Even with all this, I think graphically the Fami/NES can't really confront the MKIII/Master System. You can prefer the aesthetics, for sure. But if you show the Fami/NES graphical killers and the MKIII/Master System ones to people that have never played or seen them, I'm pretty sure which one will be the chosen in terms of graphics. One is from 1983 and the other from 1985, and I think this is noticeable. Some examples of great Master System graphics:
Power Strike II
Chuck Rock II
Daffy Duck
Asterix and the Great Rescue
Dynamite Headdy
Desert Speedtrap
Some of them play bad, but graphically they are spectacular for a 8-bit system. In fact, I even think that some classics like Sonic 2 or The Dragon's Trap looks and runs better than any Fami/NES game.
Of course, I'm with you wih the second assertion. Anyway, I love some Master System soundtracks, and I'm permanently with the desire of making a post about some marvellous Master System PSG tracks. Some day!!
baudelinog
Member
That's not what I've thought! Source?
D.Lo
Member
Many over the years in various places (and anecdotally from Brazilian friends), here was a recent one that said the same thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnsV6VEQ7mQ
The middle section is a Brazilian guy. Cut to 17:45, they show a catalogue full of Famiclones, and he speaks about how there were many by many companies, and the Sega was the 'premium' option over the crappy Famiclones.
You can check out how many Famiclones were from Brazil here:
http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/famiclones.htm
and here:
http://www.wikiwand.com/pt/Clones_de_NES
baudelinog
Member
I can't watch youtube videos at work, but anyway: I am aware that there are a lot of clones of the Fami/NES, but them outselling the Master System in Brazil is an affirmation that I would take with some caution: the Master System install base is about 5 million there, and growing:
http://jogos.uol.com.br/ultimas-not...-mil-unidades-por-ano-no-brasil.htm#fotoNav=7
There are more than 5 millions of Famiclons in Brazil? Well, maybe... but I'd take that with a grain of salt!
D.Lo
Member
The article you linked there includes modern clone/emulation boxes, like those sold by atgames now, not original 90s sales. It even specifically mentions it includes consoles that don't have a cartridge slot. That would be like counting NES mini and Virtual Console game sales as NES sales.
Regarding Famiclones, there can never be sales data to prove dozens of illegitimate systems sales combined. But there is lots of evidence that Famiclones were as ubiquitous in Brazil as they were in Hong Kong and Eastern Europe in the 90s.
Regarding Famiclones, there can never be sales data to prove dozens of illegitimate systems sales combined. But there is lots of evidence that Famiclones were as ubiquitous in Brazil as they were in Hong Kong and Eastern Europe in the 90s.
baudelinog
Member
Yes, there were a lot of clones in the Brazilian market. I still don't know why you think they sold better than the Master System and all his clones - with or without cartridge slot, I don't get the point, but let's say only cartridge-ready ones are allowed -, when all reports seem to indicate, not only the opposite, but also that the Master System has been the best-seller there for a long time.
You obviously have a lot of knowledge about the Master System and its games, maybe just not as much as you think. And it's usually a pleasure to read what you write about things that are difficult to know. But sometimes...
Let's say that your love for the Fami/NES is evident. And my love for my Master System is even bigger, so I have to fight against all you Nintendo lovers! This is why Sega pay me for lol!
D.Lo
Member
I try and be as objective as possible when it comes to history. Especially as a huge Sega and Nintendo fan. I can only believe what I have read and seen over the years. That video is pretty good, in that it clearly shows the ubiquitousness of Famiclones in an actual vintage catalogue. I've been on GAF for over a decade, and many Brazilians on neogaf have stated over the years that the NES clones sold the same or better as contemporaries. Any anecdotal experience by itself isn't data however, so I'll concede I cannot know for sure, but I've seen a lot of smoke for there to be no fire in terms of Famiclones.
baudelinog
Member
For each individual comment that you show me guessing that the NES clones were more popular as the Master System, I can show you several comments and pages where the affirmation is the opposite. Which statement is true? Taking into account that it's not possible to obtain NES clones sales data, and the only figures we have for the Master System include clones and, in this case, you don't like that... it's obvious that we will never reach a satisfactory conclusion for both us! But I'd never say (and I never read it before) that "NES/Famicom clones vastly outsold the Master System in Brazil".
It's as if I say that the Master System vastly outsold the NES in Spain. Do I have figures? No, I don't. But, in my experience, in my neighborhood, among my friends, even in the entire cities I lived back in the 90s, the Master System was a lot more popular. A lot. But the fact is that I don't have official figures and, based on what I've read, the reality may be different from city to city; and, probably, the global sales in Spain were, finally, a little more favorable to the NES.
What am I trying to say? We can't affirm categorically something based on speculations, or in our own opinion, or even in our own real but limited experience. You can't say "NES/Famicom clones vastly outsold the Master System in Brazil", because a) you don't have the data, and b) that's most likely not true, only because you have read here and there that the NES clones were popular, or some posters believing that.
Curiously, in the same post you quote:
"All that said though, yes the SMS is clearly the more powerful system. That shouldn't be surprising since it came out 2 years after the Famicom. And since a lot of the games (maybe even most?) were coded by Sega themselves they of course became very good at optimizing for the hardware which made it even more apparent with time. The NES tried to make up for it with the mapper chips in the cartridges but nothing could change the fact that the colors and detail were for the most part much better on the SMS."
D.Lo
Member
I can only believe what evidence I have had presented, not all of it is anecdotal. Like I said we cannot know for sure, there isn't even really a figure of actual MS consoles sold in Brazil either, even from Tectoy, SoC/emulation based clones without even a cart slot really don't count as 'consoles' sold to me, and I doubt to many sales data collectors either.
On an unrelated point, after getting Great Volleyball and Zillion 2, I'm up to 58 boxed complete Mark III games.
On an unrelated point, after getting Great Volleyball and Zillion 2, I'm up to 58 boxed complete Mark III games.
27 to go...
baudelinog
Member
What I don't know is why you don't count Master System clones, but do count NES clones. It's the cartridge slot, what counts?
I also don't know why you prefer just one kind of evidence. For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectoy
Look at this sentence:
"In the 1990s, Tectoy had 80% of the official Brazilian market."
"Official market", I know... Or look at this:
http://jogos.uol.com.br/ultimas-not...po-master-system-ja-vendeu-8-mi-no-brasil.htm
Do you think 8 millions machines sold (data from the distributor, Tectoy) is not a good enough evidence? Not all those machines have a cartridge slot, ok! Let's say, 4 million of cartridge-enabled? 2 million? Take the figure you want. It's much more than the figure you know for NES clones sold. And it should be, at least, enough for be careful while stating something like "NES/Famicom clones vastly outsold the Master System in Brazil".
In another vein, I'm really really jeaolus of your collection... And I loved playing Great Volleyball with my older brother!!
Ninja Senki is one of the very few indie games that capture the unique Sega 8-bit aesthetics.
http://ninjasenki.com/
D.Lo
Member
Yes I'll agree I can't say for sure, I was essentially repeating what I had read and heard elsewhere, I was primarily pushed in the direction by the video I posted earlier, which showed so many Famiclones for sale.
I think there's some crossed wires here too. I never said Famiclones 'counted' as consoles sold for Nintendo, Tectoy sales are official Sega sales to some extent however. So that's when SoC/emuconsoles don't 'count' - when we're talking about platform totals. I don't count Famiclones in that either of course, they're neither real hardware or licenced. There is a difference when discussing the 90s and 2000s/2010s however, and the totals put out by Tectoy include consoles sold up to 2016, when from what I've read for at least the last decade or earlier they're SoC/emuconsoles that don't even play carts in most cases.
I also have no doubt they had 80%+ of the market at some point if only counting official sales of NES vs MS. Famiclones were surely a big part of the environment however, but would never be counted officially anywhere since they were all pirate machines.
The claimed numbers are all over the place too, this 2015 interview with the CEO Stefano Arnhold says 5 million sold to September 2015. The link you have says 8 million in 2016. I mean I guess they could both be true but that would mean 40% of Master System consoles sold in Brazil were sold in the last year alone.
baudelinog
Member
8 millions seems too much for me too! But, anyway; look at what he said in that same interview:
"The NES had no chance in Brazil. We dominated the 8-bit market and the Famiclones/NES clones accounted for the remaining part of that segment. "
I haven't seen a single comment, anywhere, from anyone so well informed, that clarifies the situation so much.
You are a Nintendo-boy and you can't do nothing to hide it!! Take it with humor, please. I'm a (8-bit)Sega-boy, and I love this 'fights'!
IrishNinja
Member
okay, everdrive's looking great! if i could just sort out not having it order things like shit (seriously, i moved stuff around on the SD and now it doesn't even display alphabetically, like folders just show up wherever) i'd be set!
also that adapter on the right, finally found it for a fair price - how i'd missed it so! i can't get anywhere in Fantasy Zone without it, haha. once again though, got to the last boss last night without nearly as much trouble as when i was a kid, but man, i'm convinced you just can't beat what looks like the 2nd to last guy with the pea shooter. videos online show good uses of the heavy bomb but i need to get my timing down & get there with more $ & men!
D.Lo
Member
Copy the entire contents off, erase the SD, then copy the whole lot back, it should copy over in the order you have it and be correct after that.
Yeah the auto-fire adapter is a must for many games.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, i'm gonna try that tonight! hopefully that fixed it, after that my only gripe is not resetting to the OS but i guess i'm used to leaning forward to pause the damn thing anyway, haha
and god yes, i doubt id even have finished stuff like alex kidd in miracle world without that thing
IrishNinja
Member
i don't know that the thread is active enough...but yeah, i'd be down too!
Laevateinn
Member
That sounds fun. It'd give me an excuse to play something other than Phantasy Star.
D.Lo
Member
If it's arcade games I'd like that. An excuse to check out something once a month. The issue I have with say the NES game of the month is when it's an rpg/adventure/long-form action game, I just don't have the time to dedicate the 10-20 hours it would take to see through the whole game.
baudelinog
Member
I'd love to participate too! When it's done, if it's done, please post the link here!!
It was actually discussed in the Mega Drive-thread already, to be able to nominate Master System-games, and as far as I remember, we agreed on it, and even nominated Golvellius for one month (though it didnt win).
So since the Mega Drive game of the month is seemingly going down now (we have no game for january decided) - why dont we do a Master System/Mega Drive game club instead? And with the people from here to participate, it might revive the Mega Drive club as well as bring in some awesome fresh games. Should probably be organized from the Mega Drive-thread though.
So since the Mega Drive game of the month is seemingly going down now (we have no game for january decided) - why dont we do a Master System/Mega Drive game club instead? And with the people from here to participate, it might revive the Mega Drive club as well as bring in some awesome fresh games. Should probably be organized from the Mega Drive-thread though.