sixteen-bit
Member
consolized game gear is so cute
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The Sega master system appreciation thread of SegaScope 3D!
- Thread starter catmincer
- Start date
IrishNinja
Member
it really is, you'd think there'd be more out there by now but then the library was kinda limited
D.Lo
Member
Most of the best games were on Mark III/MS as well, in superior less-screen-restricted form And those that are not have mostly got MS patches.
I recapped my Game Gear but the hardware just sucks, washed out, blurry, low res screen and since it chews batteries you're stuck corded anyway.
I'd never play a PC Engine GT these days either for the same reason.
I recapped my Game Gear but the hardware just sucks, washed out, blurry, low res screen and since it chews batteries you're stuck corded anyway.
I'd never play a PC Engine GT these days either for the same reason.
IrishNinja
Member
oh yeah, even at launch GG looked blurry like that - and frankly, if i was to invest the $$ needed for a proper LCD or whatever screen, i'd prolly want it on nomad anyway
i do so wish that one chapter missing from Shining Force CD was fan translated & patched over to SMS though
i do so wish that one chapter missing from Shining Force CD was fan translated & patched over to SMS though
cireza
Member
Problem of a LED GG is that you won't have a pixel perfect screen. So depending on the setting you use, you will have some columns/lines of pixels doubled. If you are, like me, very sensible to screen quality, you can't be satisfied with this. Even it is a very neat mod !
So the two remaining options are the original screen and the Majesco screen.
I know both well, I tried them quite a lot. A good quality original screen will have some pretty great colors. In fact, it will be the most faithful experience for me, color wise. But it will have the worst ghosting and blur effect. Even a brand new console will have it. Not talking about used consoles.
The Majesco screen is, overall, not a huge improvement. It does have a bit less ghosting and blur if you ask me, but the colors feels yellowish. This is still my favorite screen, because the ghosting/blur of the original screen is too much for me.
I still play a lot on my GG (which is an original one, with a Majesco screen and new capacitors), despite the poor screen.
On topic : I have begun playing Golden Axe Warrior, and I am finding it pretty great. I am a huge fan of the two first Zelda games, and this game does feel like a shameless rip-off of Zelda 1. But it is also enhanced a lot, with many new features etc... Really liking it so far (completed 3 dungeons).
So the two remaining options are the original screen and the Majesco screen.
I know both well, I tried them quite a lot. A good quality original screen will have some pretty great colors. In fact, it will be the most faithful experience for me, color wise. But it will have the worst ghosting and blur effect. Even a brand new console will have it. Not talking about used consoles.
The Majesco screen is, overall, not a huge improvement. It does have a bit less ghosting and blur if you ask me, but the colors feels yellowish. This is still my favorite screen, because the ghosting/blur of the original screen is too much for me.
I still play a lot on my GG (which is an original one, with a Majesco screen and new capacitors), despite the poor screen.
On topic : I have begun playing Golden Axe Warrior, and I am finding it pretty great. I am a huge fan of the two first Zelda games, and this game does feel like a shameless rip-off of Zelda 1. But it is also enhanced a lot, with many new features etc... Really liking it so far (completed 3 dungeons).
IrishNinja
Member
...well, that's good to know but super disappointing! glad i never put up the $ for that screen mod then, geez. and yeah, i recall my launch one as a kid having great colors but the ghosting/trails were always there, even on slower/non-sonic games
and yeah, glad someone else is enjoying Golden Axe Warrior! for the same reasons, no less
IrishNinja
Member
Master Everdrive ordered! can't wait to finally check out SG-1000 games, plus this means i can leave my 32X plugged in with the mega ED on that now. might have to track down that SG 1000 paddle at some point, maybe a regular controller too since i've never messed with that system!
also, it's a longshot, but: anyone have an SMS with the Snail Maze built in? if i recall, you booth the system without a cart & get an error screen and it's hidden in there. i've got a nice later model with Missile Defense 3D built in, and would love to swap out for the model i grew up with, before getting it FM modded one day. lemme know, i'll cover shipping!
also, it's a longshot, but: anyone have an SMS with the Snail Maze built in? if i recall, you booth the system without a cart & get an error screen and it's hidden in there. i've got a nice later model with Missile Defense 3D built in, and would love to swap out for the model i grew up with, before getting it FM modded one day. lemme know, i'll cover shipping!
The Master System and SG-1000 palette are different, so you won't get the exact same experience. However, cranking up the brightness at least allows you to distinguish them more easily, especially black characters against dark blues and greens. http://www.smspower.org/Development/Palette
The Paddle controller is a must have imo. Not many games for it, but the couple that exist are very good in my experience.
The Paddle controller is a must have imo. Not many games for it, but the couple that exist are very good in my experience.
cireza
Member
I completed the game recently and found that it was a pretty solid adventure game for the console. Well designed, good gameplay. Maybe a bit too hard.
Dungeons' level-design felt a bit poor too. This should have aimed for shapes that make sense, because they are pretty forgettable as they are.
The overworld however was fantastic. Cleverly designed, full of things to find.
Also finding a ship in a chest. My mind was blown.
Later SG-1000 games were optimized to take account of the SMS palette, but some earlier ones (Dragon Wang at least) were rereleased with an adjusted palette to make them easier to play on a Mark III, so make sure you have the later ROM where more than one variant exists.
The paddle controller won't work properly on an export system without region modding it. Maybe there are some ROM hacks to fix that.
The paddle controller won't work properly on an export system without region modding it. Maybe there are some ROM hacks to fix that.
IrishNinja
Member
ah, good to know! and for real? i was so hoping the paddle would just work, mainly for Megumi Rescue and maybe Woody Pop too...how does one mod it?
I still have my original Master System hiding in a drawer somewhere. It's got Hang-on Built in, and the Snail Maze is accessible by holding down a (now forgotten) button combination just after the console is turned on. Best easter egg ever.
Very easily with the FM mod, which includes a region switch.
Two wires soldering, you can do it
The problem is that the Mark III hardware is different to the SMS, so the unreleased Western paddle controller would have worked differently than the Japanese one. The specs for each one were known during development, so some of the games detect which region the console is and then assume that region's paddle controller is being used, which causes issues on a Western SMS. It should be possible to hack the game to make it compatible on Western consoles, but I'm not sure if that's been done.
Here's how to region mod the SMS. Newer FM Sound boards also use this for Wonder Boy III.
There are joypad ROM hacks for the paddle games, so you can always play them that way.
IrishNinja
Member
Very easily with the FM mod, which includes a region switch.
Two wires soldering, you can do it
wait, the FM mod brings a region switch too? i thought the switch was just for turning FM on or off, that's awesome!
and haha even if i trusted myself to open it up & solder 2 wires (i don't), i'd butcher the hole for that switch!
oh shit, good looking out man - grabbing these now!
Nah, keep it dangling in the case behind the trapdoor. You won't have to touch it anyway, unless you're playing both lightguns and paddle games (requiring Western and Jp consoles respectively.) There are only a couple of multilingual games using the system's localisation, like Wonder Boy 3 and the new translation of Phantasy Star. Everything else is always in English or in Japanese regardless of your system.
D.Lo
Member
I might be misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that not many Mark III/MS games have both regions in the ROM?
Because dozens of games play in English/Japanese depending on your console region. Off the top of my head: Kung Fu Kid, Cloud Master, Wonder Boy, Wonder Boy 2, Wonder Boy 3, Aztec Adventure, Penguin Land, Power Strike, Shanghai...
Dozens more Japanese games are in English anyway, so not much changes in-game, but the system is still technically booting into the 'Japanese' version. This can be seen when the Sega Mark III logo shows before the title screen. Running a US or EU only game (eg Rambo or Secret Command) on a Mark III you get no 'Sega Mark III' logo at boot. But any of the Fantasy Zone games for example, boot in Japanese mode and show Sega Mark III at startup, so are technically running in Japanese. There are sometimes just very small changes between games in Japanese mode.
I'm certainly missing some, but I was consciously not listing games where the only change was in the title screen, like Cloud Master and Power Strike.
There are plenty of games which have differences depending on the region, but these differences are minute and the in-game text is often always the same regardless of the region. Granted I have never tried Kung Fu Kid, Aztec Adventure, Penguin Land, Shanghai with the console in Japanese mode.
There are plenty of games which have differences depending on the region, but these differences are minute and the in-game text is often always the same regardless of the region. Granted I have never tried Kung Fu Kid, Aztec Adventure, Penguin Land, Shanghai with the console in Japanese mode.
D.Lo
Member
Yeah okay so you meant actually changing dialogue etc only.
It's a perception issue, since many/most Japanese versions had little or no non-English text anyway. But they're still technically booting a 'Japan version'.
Mark III actually plays western card games directly with literally no mod or converter required at all!
Edit: BKK that list is wrong/incomplete. Kung Fu Kid, for example, plays as Makai Retsuden depending on region, and vice versa. It's not a Japan specific ROM. There may be ROM variants, but the US/EU cart still has the Japanese version on board.
A list of Japan-only roms would be around 50-100 games in my experience, and the list of roms with both Japan/west modes onboard would be over 100.
Ah I see what you've done, just grepped a list of all MS roms for a J postfix. That's a practical classification, not a technical one, some games get classified as a 'US/Pal' only release because they were not released in Japan. But they still have a Japanese mode inside the rom. The obvious example are the FM audio games that were not released in Japan, a Japanese release was clearly planned, so a Japan mode is in the rom. But was cancelled before release.
It's a perception issue, since many/most Japanese versions had little or no non-English text anyway. But they're still technically booting a 'Japan version'.
Region lock is only one way. The Mark III has no bios (it's a more normal console like Famicom) and it can play every game. The only issues are Light Gun and a couple of 50Hz games.
Mark III actually plays western card games directly with literally no mod or converter required at all!
Edit: BKK that list is wrong/incomplete. Kung Fu Kid, for example, plays as Makai Retsuden depending on region, and vice versa. It's not a Japan specific ROM. There may be ROM variants, but the US/EU cart still has the Japanese version on board.
A list of Japan-only roms would be around 50-100 games in my experience, and the list of roms with both Japan/west modes onboard would be over 100.
Ah I see what you've done, just grepped a list of all MS roms for a J postfix. That's a practical classification, not a technical one, some games get classified as a 'US/Pal' only release because they were not released in Japan. But they still have a Japanese mode inside the rom. The obvious example are the FM audio games that were not released in Japan, a Japanese release was clearly planned, so a Japan mode is in the rom. But was cancelled before release.
There could be ROM variants, that is supposed to be a list of games which have ROMs that check for region before booting. I haven't checked them all, and there is also the ROM Header issue (SG-1000 and early SMS games don't have them), but a simple bios disable (switch to boot from card instead of bios is easiest) can fix that.
Edit: I haven't grouped them myself, just cut & pasted the games from this discussion,
Edit 2: Those aren't the "official" ROM designations, just presumably used to distinguish between export and domestic ROM releases (ie Japan had different releases to the West).
Edit 3: Games could determine region without bios (so no, not only one way ... each region had a code, even if only Japan was used) .... Mark III had no bios, but games could be programmed to play or not on a particular system regardless of bios (or simply change title screen).
That's just piracy detection, western SMS has a bios which looks for the header before booting, JP Mark III doesn't have a bios so can't check for a header first.
Edit: I haven't grouped them myself, just cut & pasted the games from this discussion,
Edit 2: Those aren't the "official" ROM designations, just presumably used to distinguish between export and domestic ROM releases (ie Japan had different releases to the West).
Edit 3: Games could determine region without bios (so no, not only one way ... each region had a code, even if only Japan was used) .... Mark III had no bios, but games could be programmed to play or not on a particular system regardless of bios (or simply change title screen).
That's just piracy detection, western SMS has a bios which looks for the header before booting, JP Mark III doesn't have a bios so can't check for a header first.
D.Lo
Member
Yeah it's a mess. No regions, invalid regions etc.
I have almost every Mark III game and about 50 MS games, and literally dozens change when booted on separate consoles. It's actually weird to come across ones that have separate roms in different regions, like The Ninja.
I have almost every Mark III game and about 50 MS games, and literally dozens change when booted on separate consoles. It's actually weird to come across ones that have separate roms in different regions, like The Ninja.
Yeah that's how it's done, and like I said the result is that region locking is only one way, the Mark III plays everything, though carts need a simple converter due to the shape change.
D.Lo
Member
It's just Sega being Sega. Making it up as they went along, rushing to match Nintendo largely.
Look at the hardware:
1983 SG1000 - A colecovision that looks like a traditional Atari style console with a hard wired crappy joystick
1984 SG1000 II, the same console repackaged to look and play more like a Famicom
1985 Mark III - The same console with a few extra chips and a new video mode to compete better with the Famicom.
1986 US Master System - the Mark III repackaged with more Famicom-like carts for western audiences
1987 Japan Master System - one more stab at taking on the Famicom with essentially a 'deluxe' Mark III
1988 Mega Drive - yet again an iteration of the SG1000/M3 line design with a bunch of current arcade chips thrown in. Still fully M3 compatible (just needs a pin converter). Famicom style carts, finally killing off the traditional Atari cart shape.
Of course the software side would be even more of a scramble.
Look at the hardware:
1983 SG1000 - A colecovision that looks like a traditional Atari style console with a hard wired crappy joystick
1984 SG1000 II, the same console repackaged to look and play more like a Famicom
1985 Mark III - The same console with a few extra chips and a new video mode to compete better with the Famicom.
1986 US Master System - the Mark III repackaged with more Famicom-like carts for western audiences
1987 Japan Master System - one more stab at taking on the Famicom with essentially a 'deluxe' Mark III
1988 Mega Drive - yet again an iteration of the SG1000/M3 line design with a bunch of current arcade chips thrown in. Still fully M3 compatible (just needs a pin converter). Famicom style carts, finally killing off the traditional Atari cart shape.
Of course the software side would be even more of a scramble.
"Colecovision" hardware was pretty standard then, probably the best bang for your buck. I think Sega just did their own thing .... Nintendo wasn't big then, they probably didn't see them as a competitor at first. The whole "home console" business was new, I'm sure that they just saw it as a way to expand their arcade business.
But Nintendo did do spectacularly, competitors such as Epoch with the Super Cassette Vision gave up and started developing for the Famicom, only Sega carried on with their own failed platform....I think that even the biggest Nintendo fan should be glad of that? I think that Sega and Nintendo really pushed each other, without that competition we probably wouldn't be here today!
Late 80s / early '90s were amazing as a gamer, Mega Drive was the king, but PC Engine was good too, nobody cared about the Nintendo. Then Neo Geo came out, it looked amazing in magazines, but no way I could afford the cartridges! I could just look wantingly at the pictures whilst playing my Mega Drive, but it was still pretty amazing. I later got a PC Engine GT ...WOW! That thing was fucking amazing, I was 15 doing my GCSEs with that plugged into the mains, everyone wanted to have a go on that! Anyway, as a huge arcade SFII player I got a SNES, it was a pretty good conversion, but that was it. SNES was good, but it was never amazingly new like Mega Drive, PC Engine, or Neo Geo, way too late to the party, but it was still fun.
D.Lo
Member
I'm a pretty huge fan of Sega from this era for the old school arcade fun and quirkiness, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they just did their own thing. The original SG1000 was fine, it made perfect sense for 1983. The MSX used the same hardware the same year as well. And at least it's a nice looking small console unlike the giant Colecovision with its giant two-voltage power supply.
But after that IMO it was clearly them directly playing catch up to the massively successful Famicom/NES. The SG1000 II and Mark III have almost exact ripoffs of the Famicom controller, they even did upgrades to the controller in lock step with Nintendo's own. Both consoles even had controller docks on the side. The director of Alex Kidd has openly stated the project was specifically designed to be an answer to Super Mario Bros.
In that era, I can't see any obvious influence back the other way, from Sega on Nintendo. I'm sure there may be small things, and eventually there was - with the Mega Drive and Sonic pushing Nintendo forward with upgrades (also the mega CD, but the PCE CD was probably more influential there). But I see nothing obvious from the 8 bit era.
And Sega games actually did appear on the Famicom, just licenced via 3rd parties. I've actually been collecting these 'Sega on Nintendo' games, it's always a trip to see the Sega name up on the title screen of an 80s Nintendo game!
But after that IMO it was clearly them directly playing catch up to the massively successful Famicom/NES. The SG1000 II and Mark III have almost exact ripoffs of the Famicom controller, they even did upgrades to the controller in lock step with Nintendo's own. Both consoles even had controller docks on the side. The director of Alex Kidd has openly stated the project was specifically designed to be an answer to Super Mario Bros.
In that era, I can't see any obvious influence back the other way, from Sega on Nintendo. I'm sure there may be small things, and eventually there was - with the Mega Drive and Sonic pushing Nintendo forward with upgrades (also the mega CD, but the PCE CD was probably more influential there). But I see nothing obvious from the 8 bit era.
And Sega games actually did appear on the Famicom, just licenced via 3rd parties. I've actually been collecting these 'Sega on Nintendo' games, it's always a trip to see the Sega name up on the title screen of an 80s Nintendo game!
IrishNinja
Member
^agreed on some of that, but the beauty in the SMS' library is basically seeing sweatshop era sega try to hold it down across nearly every genre almost entirely on their own. activision, parker bros, some great compile reprograms/etc but otherwise, yeah they aped the shit out of certain NES trends cause they were getting slaughtered & had practically no help.
none of that contradicts much of what you's said, mind, i just think it's noteworthy if we're talking about they biting/following trends in that era. i'm fond of how much innovation they pushed (well ahead of its time) in the gens that followed.
none of that contradicts much of what you's said, mind, i just think it's noteworthy if we're talking about they biting/following trends in that era. i'm fond of how much innovation they pushed (well ahead of its time) in the gens that followed.
Of course, they copied the leader, that's what everybody did. The only difference is that everybody else gave up and started developing for the Famicom, Sega was the only company that didn't quit and gave Nintendo the tinyest bit of competition. Yeah, not a lot, but it set them up for the next gen, where we had real competition. How crap would it have been if Nintendo had just a monopoly?
D.Lo
Member
Absolutely, it's ironic because that's how Nintendo ended up years later, supporting their consoles and handhelds, even 100 million selling ones, largely alone in terms of major hitters.
That said it's not exactly accurate to say they did it alone. Many 'Sega' games on Mark III/MS were outsourced to Tose-like ghost developers. Nintendo of course did the same thing with Artoon/Good-Feel etc making DS/Wii games, but they were of course credited this time in a more open credit era.
I never said any of it was a good or bad thing, but I think they basically did have a monopoly, which was largely a bad thing (but had some good points, strong marketing and consolidation of the US/JP markets built a stronger 3rd party industry overall, similar to what happened with the PS2).
But I just don't see Nintendo being pushed by Sega at all in the 80s in the console space. The Master System's relative success in Australia/Europe would be inconsequential in terms of company direction, and was also largely as a budget console in the 90s after the 16-bit era had begun.
I think the PC Engine pushed Nintendo far more, it was the console that outsold the Famicom one year in Japan, and started the CD trend. In the US the Genesis and especially Sonic was the driver of change, but we're well into the 90s at that point.
That said, I love it all. I love all the quirky hardware. I really, really love the actual Sega developed Sg1000M3/MS games. I have a pretty good Super Cassette Vision collection too lol.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, it's crazy how we're full circle here nearly 40 years later!
see, i'm just going off of what was listed on the box (as you said, not much) and the ones that said "reprogrammed by sega"/etc on the title screen. how many SMS/mark III games do you think fit that bill here?
D.Lo
Member
Well over half of the 'sega' home games of that era were not developed by an internal team.
It wasn't unique to Sega though, many of the same ghost devs did work for Capcom's Famicom games.
Heck even famous arcade games were outsourced on a code level - like Donkey Kong.
SIMS had a massive output on the Master System, some of the best games on the system
http://www.smspower.org/Companies/SIMS
http://www.smspower.org/Companies/SIMS
sixteen-bit
Member
Cool TecToy retrospective:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NissGg3GMJM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NissGg3GMJM
D.Lo
Member
Oh damn yeah some of the best there.
IrishNinja
Member
god, i don't care for stoneagegamer
i just want a shell for my forthcoming master everdrive, and they want $15 for that...$17 with the screws.
to ship that to FL? $7, bringing the total to about $25. and i was looking to buy the label from elsewhere, because i don't need theirs on it.
any suggestions? i'd rather not gut a sports game & angrily try to cut an SD hole in it.
i just want a shell for my forthcoming master everdrive, and they want $15 for that...$17 with the screws.
to ship that to FL? $7, bringing the total to about $25. and i was looking to buy the label from elsewhere, because i don't need theirs on it.
any suggestions? i'd rather not gut a sports game & angrily try to cut an SD hole in it.
D.Lo
Member
gut a sports game. And you''ll get the entire SMS library in a fraction of the card space so no need for SD card removal ever really.
IrishNinja
Member
...yeah, see i went with internal micro SD over an actual SD card for my Mega, and i find myself opening that up to add stuff on a nearly monthly basis - new homebrew, mods etc
Radaxian Rumble was the last new SMS thing, so i guess you're right. still. does this one even support micro? or would an SD fit without needing to cut a hole in the top?
Master System was NOT my first console. I really wanted a Game Boy, but after playing Columns I changed my idea and I picked a Game Gear.
BUT when I took a look to Alex Kidd in Miracle World, I was so surprised to see a game that was too much better than Super Mario Bros or Sonic, that I wanted to play it. After playing it it was difficult, but with a lot of surprises and secrets and ...
One of my first Master System games (after picking the Master Gear Converter) is Fantasy Zone. I picked it because it was really cheap (10 euros now). But the game is INCREDIBLE.
So... my appreciation for the old SMS has grown inside me till
22 meters of Master System. Is not the biggest collection (I think the biggest is the one from Omar Cornut, the developer of the remake of Wonderboy the Dragon's Trap), and could be it is not the biggest from this thread (Infernal Monkey's one seems to be bigger too), but I love it
BUT when I took a look to Alex Kidd in Miracle World, I was so surprised to see a game that was too much better than Super Mario Bros or Sonic, that I wanted to play it. After playing it it was difficult, but with a lot of surprises and secrets and ...
One of my first Master System games (after picking the Master Gear Converter) is Fantasy Zone. I picked it because it was really cheap (10 euros now). But the game is INCREDIBLE.
So... my appreciation for the old SMS has grown inside me till
22 meters of Master System. Is not the biggest collection (I think the biggest is the one from Omar Cornut, the developer of the remake of Wonderboy the Dragon's Trap), and could be it is not the biggest from this thread (Infernal Monkey's one seems to be bigger too), but I love it
D.Lo
Member
I'm on mobile so can't link easily, but you can cut almost all SD cards in half. Google 'Mark III everdrive' to find my article on it and it will have details.
Also with MS taking the cart apart is just a couple of screws so is super quick to do if needed. And there isn't a huge scene so not many hacks or homebrews to update very often. The big one is Game Gear conversions but I just check every six months or so.
Also with MS taking the cart apart is just a couple of screws so is super quick to do if needed. And there isn't a huge scene so not many hacks or homebrews to update very often. The big one is Game Gear conversions but I just check every six months or so.
IrishNinja
Member
ah, i found it - yeah, that's neat. didn't know you could do that, but honestly if i'm gonna do any cutting, i guess it might as well be on the cart, then.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I don't have a master everdrive yet, but the when I was at Toomanygames I bought a 50 cent or 1 dollar copy of a game I already had. It kind of sucks to gut an existing game, but 1 dollar for a case and screws is way better than 25. For cutting the cart case I used an exacto knife and just went slow with it.
sixteen-bit
Member
SAG makes the ugliest everdrive shells
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, i might just do this. is there a good way to start/get a purchase point, or are you just angling basically? man, ima cut the shit out my finger haha
you say this, but my mega ED case from alixpress or whatever likely begs to differ
Shin Johnpv
Member
I just go really slow, don't try and force it in one cut. It's like you have to work the material slowly cutting a little bit with each swipe. The key is to not push too hard and have a fresh sharp exacto knife.
sixteen-bit
Member
Classic Gaming Quarterly's SMS launch video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnsV6VEQ7mQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnsV6VEQ7mQ
D.Lo
Member
I watched it earlier, some of the pictures are of my actual consoles lol (correctly credited so props for that mr CGQ).
A few factual errors about the SG1000/Mark III era unfortunately however.
Shin Johnpv
Member
sixteen-bit
Member
aftermarket value increasing?