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The state of piracy on PSP (Includes Download Numbers)

itxaka

Defeatist
Danj said:
Our survey says... EH-EHHHH!!



EUCD is European equivalent of DMCA by the way.

First, that link goes to an error page.

Second, I can show you sentences that show that as our law says, if it´s not mean to sell or obtain benefits for it we can do whatever we want. In fact, some people went in front of the SGAE (the Spanish RIIA) and start giving away free burned music CD in front of the police while informing that sharing is not pirating while the police were there (in fact they took some cds the bastards xD)

Anyway, if you want to talk about this PM me and i´ll sent you some links so we don´t derail this thread ;)
 

DiddyBop

Member
some of you are under estimating the R4. the DS pirate scene is just as bad or even worse than the PSP in Canada, especialy Toronto,which is pirate heaven. people actually look at you funny for "wasting" money on games for the portable systems when you could just easily download them
 
surazal said:
The main difference was that for a long time PS2 piracy required installing a mod chip. Same with PSX piracy. Software mod piracy just makes thing too easy.

Screenshot_HDloader_3.jpg


Any random computer hard drive and a $40 dollar disc was all you needed for the PS2.



And for the PSX, you just needed a launch unit, the 1001 model number. Then all you needed to do was the door trick where you open the door, go into the CD part of it, put a legit game in, then hold down the button in the back, it spins to verify it, then put the back up disc in it's place and exit the CD screen. The game would load 100% of the time. You can also do this for Japanese games. If nothing else, the original Playstation was the all time easiest system to play back up games on.
 

Diablos

Member
Yoshi said:
Quite big (and sad) numbers, but I'm not sure that the majority of these downloads are lost sales.
Thank you. Downloading a pirated PSP game is NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing one. I'm sorry. It's not the same thing. Just because someone downloads a copy of the new God of War doesn't mean he'd go to his local Best Buy or Circuit City and steal one if the Internet did not exist.
 

Fusebox

Banned
For what its worth, I know for a fact that some of those downloads are by people who hate waiting for games to come out in their region, and when the game is finally made locally they available they always buy it.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
I hope someone starts using these numbers as "sales" numbers in the monthly NPD threads, lol.
 
Diablos said:
Thank you. Downloading a pirated PSP game is NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing one. I'm sorry. It's not the same thing. Just because someone downloads a copy of the new God of War doesn't mean he'd go to his local Best Buy or Circuit City and steal one if the Internet did not exist.

The publisher still gets the money if someone steals it from a store.
 

Fuzzy

I would bang a hot farmer!
sp0rsk said:
I hope someone starts using these numbers as "sales" numbers in the monthly NPD threads, lol.
But they can be coming from anywhere in the world. Please think next time.
 

Danj

Member
ChaoticBlue said:
well, i'm just gonna accept it. the psp's fate is piracy and when it dies, it dies. it is what it is.

I don't think the PSP is going to die any time soon though. Plus, even if it dies for games, it's still a great multimedia device, so people will still keep buying PSPs.
 
honestly the easiest way to stop piracy is to stop making it interfacable with a PC. Yeah it'll drive up costs probably, but it'll work I think. That means a new way to distribute the media (no cds/dvds) and no standard pc interfaces (usb, sata, etc).

I think one of the biggest reasons ps3 isnt hacked yet is file size and the lack of affordable blu-ray writers and disks. even if you could install on a hard drive, a 25-50gb game would discourage most i think.

as a sort of a confession, i just can't pirate games. i took a programming class and really understood how much goes into coding. if that level of frustration is what it takes to make a mgs4, then dammit they deserve my $60
 

Kuran

Banned
Danj said:
I quite like this video response to the whole "piracy is stealing" brigade.

Not going to bother looking at the video because I'm at work, but there are people out there that consider themselves hardcore gamers, they don't have a problem with downloading all of their games. Be it Wii, DS, PSP, PS2 or PC.. they wouldn't spend a penny on their hobby, except for hardware.

Still they consider themselves gamers, and see nothing wrong with this practice.


Are you telling me that if they had no means to 'steal' these games through the internet, that they'd settle for a life of leasurely walks down the beach? Perhaps they'll join the local basketball club?

Whatever dude, these are all lost sales.
 

Danj

Member
Kuran said:
Are you telling me that if they had no means to 'steal' these games through the internet, that they'd settle for a life of leasurely walks down the beach? Perhaps they'll join the local basketball club?

Whatever dude, these are all lost sales.

Has it occurred to you that some people pirate games because they don't have the money to buy them? So clearly, such people are not lost sales because they couldn't afford to buy it if they didn't pirate it.
 

herod

Member
Danj said:
Has it occurred to you that some people pirate games because they don't have the money to buy them? So clearly, such people are not lost sales because they couldn't afford to buy it if they didn't pirate it.

Then perhaps if they spent more time working and less time pirating they might be able to afford a couple.

I'd love to live on state benefits and pirate all my games, but there's a little thing called social responsibility.
 

Danj

Member
herod said:
Then perhaps if they spent more time working and less time pirating they might be able to afford a couple.

I'd love to live on state benefits and pirate all my games, but there's a little thing called social responsibility.

I never said it wasn't illegal or something, I said that all the over-the-top anti-piracy campaigning by the RIAA and MPAA and FACT is clouding the issue.

Also, I resent the implication that all people who are on benefits are somehow lazy and should just "get a job". Sometimes unemployment means there aren't jobs to get.
 
Danj said:
Has it occurred to you that some people pirate games because they don't have the money to buy them? So clearly, such people are not lost sales because they couldn't afford to buy it if they didn't pirate it.
That's nonsense imo. If you have enough money to buy the hardware (PSP around $170?) , you should be able to afford at least a couple of games/year.
Patapon's only $20.

Also, I resent the implication that all people who are on benefits are somehow lazy and should just "get a job". Sometimes unemployment means there aren't jobs to get.
Yeah, and playing pirated games all day is going to solve that problem right? It's called leaching.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
OldJadedGamer said:
Any random computer hard drive and a $40 dollar disc was all you needed for the PS2.
Shoddy compatibility, and it only works on Fat. Yes I'm aware of USB Loader, but I doubt even pirates want to up with making already questionable load-times in many PS2 games Worse.
There's of course also memory card exploit now, but that only just came out in 2007. Which is my original point, IMO it comes down to how well userbase growth stays ahead of piracy growth (whether due to hacks coming out late, or just not being popular).
PS2 had attach of ~1:1 in certain Asian regions, where hacks were readily available from launch.

The Faceless Master said:
complicated? unreliable? not very compatible? none of that stuff is more complicated than installing a custom firmware on PSP.
It was kept out of public attention, as opposed to PSP where it was publicized by everyone from print to web. And it's been mentioned several times in this thread how looking up stuff on the web is simpler then buying it in a store, especially if items are not widely available.
I believe NDS piracy is still playing catchup, while that isn't likely the case on PSP outside 1st year.

GBA game sales compared to PSP game sales is a blowout.
GBA reached 4x the userbase of PSP.
Currently tie ratios are close enough(PSP is behind GBA LTD, but relative points in life are relatively close), we'll see if they stay that way with PSP userbase increasing.
NDS on the other hand will outsell GBA SW LTD long before HW crosses streams.
 

Danj

Member
M°°nblade said:
That's nonsense imo. If you have enough money to buy the hardware (PSP around $170?) , you should be able to afford at least a couple of games/year.
Patapon's only $20.

The hardware could have been a birthday or Christmas gift, and Patapon is only $20 in the States, it is full price everywhere else.

M°°nblade said:
Yeah, and playing pirated games all day is going to solve that problem right? It's called leaching.

Oh so now you're saying that all unemployed people are pirates as WELL as being lazy?
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Danj said:
Has it occurred to you that some people pirate games because they don't have the money to buy them? So clearly, such people are not lost sales because they couldn't afford to buy it if they didn't pirate it.

That's fine.

These people should not get to play the games, though. If you can't afford the game, you don't play the game. Simple as that. There's a false sense of entitlement to play whatever games people want, whether they pay for them or not.

And I wonder how many people who "don't have the money to buy" games manage to spend every bit as much money on other - less piratable - non-essentials such as, say, beer and cigarettes.
 

Danj

Member
iapetus said:
That's fine.

These people should not get to play the games, though. If you can't afford the game, you don't play the game. Simple as that. There's a false sense of entitlement to play whatever games people want, whether they pay for them or not.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. What I am pointing out is that this situation means that the concept that "all piracy = lost sales" is in error.

iapetus said:
And I wonder how many people who "don't have the money to buy" games manage to spend every bit as much money on other - less piratable - non-essentials such as, say, beer and cigarettes.

Well, beer at least is available for ridiculously cheap prices at supermarkets; you could say that supermarket beer is to real beer like bootlegs are to legit games, except of course supermarket beer is still legal.
 
Danj said:
The hardware could have been a birthday or Christmas gift, and Patapon is only $20 in the States, it is full price everywhere else.
Then sell the PSP.
If you're financially dependent on other people, they should have realised that buying a gaming device implies additional costs for the games.


Oh so now you're saying that all unemployed people are pirates as WELL as being lazy?
I believe I'm done here.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Danj said:
Well, beer at least is available for ridiculously cheap prices at supermarkets; you could say that supermarket beer is to real beer like bootlegs are to legit games, except of course supermarket beer is still legal.

30 cans of supermarket beer or 80 cigarettes will buy you a budget price or second hand game. It's closer to 8 pints if you drink in pubs.

Danj said:
The hardware could have been a birthday or Christmas gift, and Patapon is only $20 in the States, it is full price everywhere else.

Patapon isn't full price in the UK - it's around £20 in the one shop I've seen it in, and can be had for less than that - £14.08, according to gamestracker.com
 

Danj

Member
iapetus said:
30 cans of supermarket beer or 80 cigarettes will buy you a budget price or second hand game.

Well, there are some who would claim that used games are worse than piracy.

iapetus said:
Patapon isn't full price in the UK - it's around £20 in the one shop I've seen it in, and can be had for less than that - £14.08, according to gamestracker.com

Ah, that's new, last time I had seen it was for £24.99.
 

apujanata

Member
iapetus said:
30 cans of supermarket beer or 80 cigarettes will buy you a budget price or second hand game. It's closer to 8 pints if you drink in pubs.



Patapon isn't full price in the UK - it's around £20 in the one shop I've seen it in, and can be had for less than that - £14.08, according to gamestracker.com

I would suggest staying out of "second hand game". It still didn't benefit the game developer / publisher, and only benefit the "gamestore". Either buy the budget price, or wait six month - one year until the new game hit bargain bin (and got discounted).
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
iapetus said:
30 cans of supermarket beer
So ~1$ a can? Is that a proper brand beer or some no-name shit that will give you hangover the size of London Bridge next day? :p

I mean I always heard Britain is hideously expensive, but if normal (local)brands sell at 1$ a can in stores, that's reasonable in my experience (and in line with other parts of the world I've lived in).

apujanata said:
I would suggest staying out of "second hand game". It still didn't benefit the game developer / publisher, and only benefit the "gamestore".
Speaking of shop benefits - when I bought Worms 2 online I saw how low they are really willing to go - I ended up receiving a Distribution Sample (with a nice big label stating "not for sale").
 

wazoo

Member
nofi said:
I bought 11 PSP games yesterday with my new Slim and Lite. Have I addressed the balance?

did you buy 11 times the same game ?? Otherwise it will not change anything in the charts.
 

Danj

Member
Fafalada said:
So ~1$ a can? Is that a proper brand beer or some no-name shit that will give you hangover the size of London Bridge next day? :p

I mean I always heard Britain is hideously expensive, but if normal (local)brands sell at 1$ a can in stores, that's reasonable in my experience (and in line with other parts of the world I've lived in).

Well, remember these supermarkets are basically like Wal-Mart (in fact in ASDA's case it IS Wal-Mart)... they have their own-brand lowest common denominator crap that they sell for as cheap as possible.

But yes, for a lot of things Britain is hideously expensive. Games are usually more expensive here than the sales tax could account for, and often companies just cross out the $ and write a pound sign when creating UK pricing structures, although they haven't been able to get away with this so much recently because the dollar is so weak now.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Fafalada said:
So ~1$ a can? Is that a proper brand beer or some no-name shit that will give you hangover the size of London Bridge next day? :p

Remember, UK games prices are a fair bit higher as well. But not too much more than $1 a can - around 75p. That's for Tesco's own brand premium lager, which I wouldn't touch with a barge pole personally - the beers I'd actually drink cost in the region of twice that.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
You guys do realize that quite a chunk of those numbers are from people that live in countries where games aren't officially released at all, and where the taxes for importing and exchange rates makes the software cost more than the triple of its original price?

Not justifiable, but it's comprehensible.
 
Alaluef said:
You guys do realize that quite a chunk of those numbers are from people that live in countries where games aren't officially released at all, and where the taxes for importing and exchange rates makes the software cost more than the triple of its original price?

Not justifiable, but it's comprehensible.

Yep, and there's another group of people who weren't going to buy anyway.

Is PSP piracy real? Definitely. Is it a problem? I'd say so. If PSP piracy didn't exist, would PSP software sales be way over what they are now? I doubt it. Download numbers are not a good indicator of the actual impact of piracy on sales.
 

AnthonyP

Junior Member
Those are pretty staggering figures guys. It's 1,336,172 illegal copies of 9 games. Just 9 games from 1 torrent site.
 
I would never download a PSP game, that's just wrong. But I do admit to ripping my own PSP games for play on my PSP and my PSP alone!
 

Blitzzz

Member
People that don't understand why people pirate are just thinking way too hard. Easy access + no consequences = piracy. These people can have all the money in the world, but if they can download a game just like downloading anything else on the internet and have no consequences for doing it, then they will. It doesn't matter if Patapon only costs $20. If they can find Patapon for $0 online, plus have the convenience to not leave the house to get it, it's going to get downloaded.

Until governments figure out some way to track pirates (difficult in most contries where there are privacy rights and etc to contend with) and are able to show penalties (jail time, fines) the general pirating population has no fear/reason to stop what they are doing.

Developers/Publishers really can't do anything unless they are making an online game.
 
Blitzzz said:
People that don't understand why people pirate are just thinking way too hard. Easy access + no consequences = piracy. These people can have all the money in the world, but if they can download a game just like downloading anything else on the internet and have no consequences for doing it, then they will. It doesn't matter if Patapon only costs $20. If they can find Patapon for $0 online, plus have the convenience to not leave the house to get it, it's going to get downloaded.

Until governments figure out some way to track pirates (difficult in most contries where there are privacy rights and etc to contend with) and are able to show penalties (jail time, fines) the general pirating population has no fear/reason to stop what they are doing.

Developers/Publishers really can't do anything unless they are making an online game.

I would easily pay $20 for Patapon if it was downloadable through their store. Stores are too old school. I hate having the physical media and boxes cluttering my space. I'm not admitting to piracy but I can see the convenience of having a quieter, quicker, and more efficient experience. Ripping isos defeats the whole purpose. Am I suppose to throw the game away? I can't sell it since that's "stealing." Right? I don't want to pack it away as taht defeats the purpose of not having to store the stuff.

Downloadable games Sony...do it.
 
iapetus said:
Why not, if you're so dead set on not having the physical media around?

That's where this gets ridiculous. So, I buy a game, rip it for my convenience, then throw it away? If I sell it to a friend or to a trade shop I'm "bad" but I throw it away where no one else can enjoy simply because that's what is "right" to do?

It seems the old way of deeming what is right and wrong needs to change here. Games, movies, and cds aren't like cars, appliances, tvs, where you can have backup copies and what not. I paid for it, kept a copy, sold it and got some of my money back. How is that really different than Gamestop?
 

Blitzzz

Member
MotorbreathX said:
That's where this gets ridiculous. So, I buy a game, rip it for my convenience, then throw it away? If I sell it to a friend or to a trade shop I'm "bad" but I throw it away where no one else can enjoy simply because that's what is "right" to do?

It seems the old way of deeming what is right and wrong needs to change here. Games, movies, and cds aren't like cars, appliances, tvs, where you can have backup copies and what not. I paid for it, kept a copy, sold it and got some of my money back. How is that really different than Gamestop?

I don't think Gamestop keeps a copy :)

While I agree with everything you say... the broad picture and the actual physical movements involved would be viewed as no different than a pirate who buys, copies, sells.

Bottom line is it's impossible to stop piracy of offline games.
 
Blitzzz said:
I don't think Gamestop keeps a copy :)

While I agree with everything you say... the broad picture and the actual physical movements involved would be viewed as no different than a pirate who buys, copies, sells.

Bottom line is it's impossible to stop piracy of offline games.

True. After I wrote the post I realized the Gamestop comment was dumb.

As for the stopping it, digital distribution would eliminate a lot of it. While hacking licenses and whatnot would probably be possible, it makes it a lot harder.

It's funny that the technology is there to do all of the above but retailers put a kink in it. The video game companies just need to bite the bullet and eliminate retailers. While it might kill sales initially due to casuals not knowing where to get their games, the trend would catch on and it would be known that to get games you purchase them digitally. Get some balls big three!
 

bungiefan

Member
bdizzle said:
honestly the easiest way to stop piracy is to stop making it interfacable with a PC. Yeah it'll drive up costs probably, but it'll work I think. That means a new way to distribute the media (no cds/dvds) and no standard pc interfaces (usb, sata, etc).

Cartridge-based console already did that. The companies making piracy tools then made their own interface devices for computers. You've also got all the consoles using the internet now, which means they can communicate with other internet devices (in fact they have to for the internet to work), so you could get rips of games extracted and transferred that way (such as how people rip original DS games via homebrew and the DS' wireless connection). GBA carts didn't use a standard PC interface, and DS cards don't either, but they made USB interfaces you could plug a GBA cart into, and memory card interfaces enclosed in an adapter shaped like an official cart (hello devices that allow SD or micro-SD cards for GBA and DS). Non-standard media isn't going to stop the piracy, because someone will just adapt it to interface with something standard.

As long as piracy is cheaper to do in the long run than buying the games, it's going to happen even if the startup is expensive. I remember seeing GBA flash carts several years ago selling for nearly $200 US, and lots of people were talking about using them. $200 was steep to start the piracy, but once you got into it, you had a library of ROMs that equated to thousands of dollars if you'd legally bought them all. That's the fuel that keeps the process going.

PS3 seems to be being spared from it because of the mandatory firmware updates, and people haven't figured out custom firmware to the level the PSP is at right now, plus BlueRay burners and blank media are still so expensive that it pretty much costs the same as buying the game to pirate it.

All that happens with piracy, and why it's hard to stop, is that it triggers an arms race, similar to the one unofficial software like cheat devices get tangled in. They update the system to blcok the exploit the known device uses, and the people making that device update it to use a different exploit. Updatable firmware just means they don't have to release a new console model to try to stop new people from getting into piracy, ala PS1 with the removal of the Parallel Port starting with the model 9000 to stop people from using Action Replay and external modchips, which just prompted development of Breaker Pro and disc and memory card dongle-based Action Replay. It's a viscious cycle, and nobody's going to stop it, because they still get at least temporary results out of every cycle.

Heck, the new protection method used in DS Crystal Chronicles was cracked in about a week, and is no longer an issue for many of the affected devices. The protection worked in that some people likely got impatient and went out and bought it (increasing sales of the game), while the determined pirates were patient and waited, knowing a fix would be found, or bought a known more compatible device to replace their outdated one (making those pirates still come out ahead in cost since they still spend less money per game they obtain). It's a never-ending battle until the console dies, in which case the pirates win, since they don't have to deal with upgraded protections after that point, and thus are left with a very finite number of issues to deal with.

They can't even shut down game distribution effectively anymore, with all the decentralized filesharing protocols out now. Sure, take down a web site. The torrents from that site still work with DHT, and people can generate new torrents from the completed files.

It's a horrible position to be in as a game developer, but there's not much that can permanently be done about it. There are people working on the piracy side that have vast technical knowledge or aptitude and will eventually crack any protection scheme or custom media format. Humans design the protections, humans can break or bypass them.
 
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