Some have said. Some say. It has be said. Word on the street. I have a friend who said.
I hate that shit.
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Tim Schafer: Indies Moving Away From XBLA, Console Patches Cost $40,000
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Some have said. Some say. It has be said. Word on the street. I have a friend who said.
I hate that shit.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm not a WoW player, and I certainly wouldn't know where to look.
Yep Uber Entertainment will NEVER make another game for Xbox due to their patching requirements. SMNC could never happen on XBL since they patch weekly with a new pro rotation.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Glad Chubigans straightened that out.
Tim Schafer didn't mention anything about PSN costing 40k.
Tim Schafer didn't mention anything about PSN costing 40k.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm not a WoW player, and I certainly wouldn't know where to look.
It's worth pointing out that those are all pretty damn big content patches too. Beyond even what TF2 does. Even the minor patches (Patch 3.3.5, for example) have added entire raids to the game.
I might quibble with their bandwidth pricing but that seems more reasonable than the XBLA approach. So they don't charge a flat fee, like the $40k mentioned, but instead charge for bandwidth alone?
Ah, that's clever of them. I never really got the outrage over the install keys anyways but that's a whole other discussion.
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Curious as to how poor the performance has to be and how it's affecting publishers that would explain why publishers would scale back their XBLA support.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I'm not about to make excuses for games shipping in a horrible state, but anyone who thinks this is a deterrent probably also believes in the death penalty. When you're doing the things which lead to a buggy product shipping you aren't thinking about the consequences of that, you're too busy thinking about the shitstorm which will rain down on you if you don't deliver on time.
All policies like this do is prevent developers from fixing their mistakes, if you want to ensure quality you do it at the certification level.
All policies like this do is prevent developers from fixing their mistakes, if you want to ensure quality you do it at the certification level.
Clay Davis
Member
do you have any examples as it seems the opposite is happening with more games being announced.
and i do feel we're missing the point somewhat. if a digital download title like trenched had needed more than two patches, there's seriously something wrong on the developers end for releasing such a broken title.
skyrim or games of that size, two or more patches is understandable, but when dealing with games like trenched, trials, castle crashers, there really is no need for them to have to patch out game breaking or performance related issues more than once or twice. the fee in that sense makes sense, it gives developers the opportunity to patch their games at least twice, for free, but if the product was fundamentally broken upon release and needs further patches, the developer should feel the force of the 40k charge.
how many people were angry about how broken skyrim on the ps3 was? if games like that are released and the devs already have your money, they deserve to feel the force of a punishing fee for releasing a broken title.
It's not even about buggy games. With console hacking happening more and more, and more games that need balance patches it's a growing problem. That's not even taking into account that having such high prices for patches causes devs to release less free content. It's a piss poor management of XBL and MS needs to change it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Steam FTW.
figure it out, XBL.
figure it out, XBL.
So are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to fix bugs?
There is a clear opportunity here to one of the console manufacturers to lure independent developers to its platform. Though I'm fine that PC is and always be the safe haven for these, this could be the moment for MS, Sony or Nintendo to streamline their certification processes and SDK approvals and aggressively pursue these smaller developers.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Trenched is a multiplayer game, yeah? You're going to get down on them for patching a multiplayer game?
Sony certified it, Sony needs to take some responsibility too, just like in this situation the games in question were certified by Microsoft so they need to be held somewhat accountable.
And also this.
I think some of you guys are confusing deterrence with punishment. As much as it's annoying to get a game which is broken for you, this isn't the way to fix that.
Clay Davis
Member
no, what i'm saying is that they have two opportunities to patch for free, that should be more than enough to fix any serious game breaking or performance related bugs.
Imagine what would have happened if Bethesda decided, because of the fees, that Skyrim wasn't worth fixing?
It seems to me that the fees will just push lesser and smaller developers away, not ensure that games are released bug-free. Comments from Feep earlier on support this opinion of mine. =p
And if they use those two patches and someone finds an obscure security exploit with huge implications down the line? Or if someone discovers a potential gameplay component that completely breaks multiplayer?
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
You knew here? Generally when I post something, I pretty much know what I'm talking about
Like2Drive
Banned
XBL directed me to Steam (because of the L4D DLCs), for that I'm grateful.
Trenched needed a patch to change the game's title, which was a totally unforeseeable thing.
Do we have patch notes? I don't own the game and I'm curious as to what those patches did.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Trenched
Patch 1:
- Improves networking / lag issues online. (Not because the game was utterly broken, because it takes real-world usage to try to figure out the scale of issues and the best way to fix them)
Patch 2:
- Renames game due to IP issue in Europe (Trenched -> Iron Brigade)
SERIOUSLY SOMETHING WRONG
SUCH A BROKEN TITLE
Trials HD has had 6 title updates, all of which have added new content, fixed content sharing issues / leaderboard issues / etc, and fixed in-game bugs.
Patch 1:
- Saved data loss issues <-- this was the major issue players were talking about. Everything else is basically stuff that was barely noticable.
- Quick Match/Custom Match multiplayer games not working/displaying error messages
- Xbox LIVE games dropping unexpectedly
- Arena Master achievement will now unlock after any mixed arena matches.
- Overall network performance improvements
- A few crash bugs
- NXE related issues
- Max experience cap lifted
- Boomerang exploit is now resolved
- Alien Hominid can now drop the pitchfork!
Patch 2:
Castle Crashers XBLA Title Update 2 Changes
- Download the Pink Knight (complete with new weapons!) in the Xbox LIVE Marketplace, FOR FREE!!!!!!! ($1.00 donated to Keep A Breast Foundation with each of the first 50,000 downloads)
- Download the Blacksmith Pack for 160 Microsoft Points. Once shrouded in mystery, the legend of the Blacksmith becomes a reality. Wielding miniature antlered frogs, burning hammers of justice and springboard contraptions, this warrior is much like William Wallace (ala Braveheart), but purple and definitely not Mel Gibson.
- Added a Team vs Team feature to Player Match Arena (as opposed to the current free-for-all).
- Earn two new Avatar AwardsCardinal Animal Orb and Knight Helmet!
- Ability to check Players Gamer Cards in Xbox LIVE matches.
- Main menu News Ticker for all of your latest Castle Crashers and Behemoth Updates!
Notable Bug Fixes:
- Level 256 cheat resolved (more info available on request).
- Data copy glitch (more info available on request).
- Sandworm experience glitch (more info available on request).
- Wedding Crashers progression save now fixed when user leaves game play in flowery fields.
- Smoothed Alien Hominids Splash Magic when traveling over water.
- Slowed down Iceskimos power drainage from magic.
- More effects added to elemental attacks for Alien Hominid, Demon and Iceskimo!
- If your character dies, your Animal Orbs can no longer fight without you.
- Fixed floating characters in Beefy Arena when grabbed.
- Sandwiches can now be picked up after Volcano Boss fight.
Ah, twice now, instead of once.
Clay Davis
Member
single and multi.
no, i'm saying that game breaking or performance related bugs shouldn't take more than two patches to fix. those two patches are free, if it requires a third or fourth patch, the game is fundamentally broken.
and they do, they allow developers two opportunities to fix serious bugs before the fee is demanded.
maybe they should differentiate between mp and sp patches, but the point stands. no single player game should require more than two patches to fix game breaking or performance related bugs.
Gotta keep moving that goalpost!
What you're also saying is that you NEVER want free content unless it's in the first two patches. Doesn't sound like a good thing for a dev that wants to continue to support their community.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
There are very few games out there that don't resolve the bugs you're talking about in one or two patches. But many games get more patches (left 4 dead is at 20 patches, for example) to fix more minor bugs, add minor or major features, and generally improve the game, to say nothing of balance updates for multiplayer games.
So, in this thread, the train of thought (and I'm not saying all this has been you) has went from:
- Patches are bad
- Okay, well, more than one patch is bad
- Okay, well, more than two patches are bad
- Okay, well, more than two patches for game breaking bugs are bad
- Okay, well, more than two patches for game breaking bugs are bad in single player games
Clay Davis
Member
i'm talking about patches that relate to game performance. i do feel those patches should be limited to two patches and further patches cost developers money.
maybe they should start to differentiate between patches that are for single player and mp and those that deal with name changes, etc, but for a single player to need more than two patches to fix bugs or performance issues is unacceptable.
If they hadn't waited, they would have also had to patch in support for the DLC. I find it surprising they had to roll both into one since it was published by Microsoft. You would think MS would eat the fee for their own game.
You want to prevent developers from making their games better. That's crazy. You as the consumer only benefit from patching, especially when it's done as well as it is on Steam.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Okay, well, can the third patch fix a few minor bugs on the side if all the major bugs are already fixed and the patch also adds hooks for DLC and improves the engine or adds new features? Or is it two patches that can contain any bug fix, minor or major, and everything after that can ONLY be "name changes, etc."?
Clay Davis
Member
no, developers can release free dlc packs. why do they need to release free content via patches when the dlc distribution method makes more sense.
I don't think you really understand how game development works. This kind of thinking was the reason the Wii was basically hacked wide fucking open.
You knew here? Generally when I post something, I pretty much know what I'm talking about
Are you talking about marketing performance with the new dashboard? Ad spend bringing in less sales post dashboard? Or in general XBLA sales have gone down with or without ad spend?
On another subject, businesses seek to maximize high margin products. Nothing is more high margin to platform owners than third party licensing of retail games which are essentially infinite margin (if you count the platform itself as a sunk cost in the past), from that perspective it is perfectly logical to hamstring XBLA games if you view them as competition to or cannibalization of retail games. Compare that to Apples marketting of the Ap Store, there is no cannibalization of other revenue streams for Apple to do this.
I think XBLA and PSN simply can't take off because of the singular nature of the console ecosystem. The incentive for the platform owner isn't there.
Personally, I believe there is no cannibalization, but I doubt Sony, MS, and Nintendo view it that way.
40K huh. Is that why they never patched Costume Quest? Was enjoying myself until I ran into the french fry glitch, which was just laughably unacceptable. And they never bothered to fix it! I guess I've never played anything with a game-ending bug before. I was so annoyed I even started a silly personal boycott of Double Fine games (sorry Stacking, you looked kinda neat).
I'm fine with post release patches. No game company has a Q&A department the size of the games potential audience, so it's expected. Hundreds of thousands of players will find lots more wrong with the game than a team of 20 Q&A workers.
My problem is indeed with how archaic and closed the consoles are in terms of letting such things release as Tim is saying. My consoles have been collecting more and more dust since I've realized how incredible Steam is in terms of customer appreciation.
My problem is indeed with how archaic and closed the consoles are in terms of letting such things release as Tim is saying. My consoles have been collecting more and more dust since I've realized how incredible Steam is in terms of customer appreciation.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
It's a shame XBLA games have been drying up over the last year or two. Great ones, I mean. It used to be the best thing about the console.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
ITT: People who know nothing of game development talk out or their ass.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Because why should someone need to download a DLC pack that they won't see if they don't go to the marketplace to add free options to the options screen?
Microsoft also has problems with first-party titles doing unlimited free DLC, for what it's worth.
It's far better to string content along through patches than bundling everything together into semi-annual releases. It causes the community for your game to remain interested in it for far longer.
I would rather have that free content delivered directly to me.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Why is it a shame? It's not like the games stop being made, the devs all just moved to Steam where they make more money and it's easier for them to be much more in-tune with their fan base.
Tell me about it. There was a period of time there where I was all about the $5-$10 XBLA titles. About the time Ikaruga was released.
XBLA drying up and Microsoft charging such high prices for harddrives kinda killed that. That, and steam sales.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
This is true, but it was one of the best reasons to own the console. When people used to ask me what console to get, I'd tell them 360 and my first reason would be the XBLA range. It's lost a big selling point for me for their future console.
It was nice having that indie space on a console. But yeah, Steam is the best place for the titles and I can still play them, so all is good really.
CountAntonius
Member
I enjoy live and don't mind paying for the service. I do wish however they would open up a bit more and work with developers. I'd hate to see the potential of XBLA wasted.
Clay Davis
Member
maybe i don't, but releasing games that require constant patching is something i don't ever want to appear on consoles.
i hate it whenever i play a ps3 game that requires me to download a 300mb patch.
the new dash has a big ad window (which i hate), so it's not like they won't see it if ms advertise it as they have been advertising all the recent releases and sales and demos and stuff.
even single player games? mp i can understand and why maybe they should differentiate between the kind of patch.
isn't that dlc is? there could be a notice on the main screen of a game telling you new content is available. ms don't care for that, do they?
Patches are automatic. DLC is something you have to actually look for and download manually. If something is free I should automatically download it. Why would you want free stuff to be harder to push out to people?
Clay Davis
Member
they have? the release schedule is more packed than ever?
can you give examples of it drying uo?
should be second post
I wouldn't say it's drying up, but Steam is getting lots of exclusive games and XBLA isn't as impressive anymore.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Ah I get it now, you're not arguing about whether this policy makes sense, you're cheerleading for your favourite company.