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[Krejlooc]

I mean, as long as you can install programs outside of the Win10 store everything's OK, right? If MS wants to sell their exclusive games on Win10 Store that's their choice. Look at Ori. There will be a version on Steam and a version on Win10, or am I missing something?

Embrace, extend, and extinguish.

 

[wapplew]

I don't see any issue here since you don't need to use Windows Store for your games.

Of course published MS games will use WS only and they are in the rights to do that.

They could always use infinite war chest to buy exclusive.

 

[anonymous_abc]

And if this happens then I will be moving to Linux or back to windows 7.

Is it a question of if? I think the real question will be if it sticks.

 

[Memory]

People said the same thing about steam years ago now everybody loves them. Who knows what MS has planned in the future?

Personally I don't trust any of these companies which is why all competition is welcome, let them all fight over us the customers so we in turn receive the best products and services.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Embrace, extend, and extinguish.

i always chuckle when i remember microsoft and java

 

[samn]

People said the same thing about steam years ago now everybody loves them. Who knows what MS has planned in the future?

Personally I don't trust any of these companies which is why all competition is welcome, let them all fight over us the customers so we in turn receive the best products and services.

judging by MS past actions they'll abandon this platform for gaming within a couple years leaving their customers stranded

 

[Krejlooc]

People said the same thing about steam years ago now everybody loves them.

strong revisionist history

 

[ebullientprism]

The best protection we have against Microsoft practices like these is their own rank incompetence when it comes to trying to monopolize things.

Look at GFWL.

 

[itsbenoclock]

As consoles become more like PCs, PCs become more like consoles.

 

[ethomaz]

Did you even read the article?
Yes it might be possible to circumvent the Windows store, but it sure ain't easy. And your average Joe will likely not be doing it.

Of course it is easy lol

You choose what Store to sell your game... you can choose WS, Steam, Origin, etc... that won't change.

If MS want their own games on WS exclusive it is fine like Valve games will be exclusives to Steam.

If a dev wants to make a exclusive deal with MS and WS it is fine too... the deal can be good for the devs.

Sorry but people are overrating for nothing... devs are open to choose what they thing is better for them.

Do you think that's their goal, just release like 10 games a year and call it a day? Half of the article is about addressing why very few third parties will be interested in what they are doing. If MS only gets their own games up there, the initiative is going to fail, and that can end up being pretty bad for customers in a few years.

Of course not.

But if you [dev] is free to choose where to put your game then it is fine.

I see no difference than App Store, Google Play, Steam, Origin, etc... it is an option.

They could always use infinite war chest to buy exclusive.

Make deals with devs to release on WS is fine.

 

[Krejlooc]

The best protection we have against Microsoft practices like these is their own rank incompetence when it comes to trying to monopolize things.

Look at GFWL.

Counting on someone to purposefully trip up is dangerous. I used to be a staunch Netscape Navigator user.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

Of the many, many faults in their windows store policies, I'll point out one of the most egregious:

That one is pretty big for Europe, where we face a weird issue that publishers love to overcharge hard for digital downloads. Steam (and Origin and Uplay!) allow retail copies on PC to be sold, and retail copies are much cheaper than digital. This is also how key sellers get legit EU region keys so if you don't want a box you can buy from them.

 

[Occam]

If you value freedom and open formats, Microsoft has always been the wrong choice.
Whenever Microsoft deems itself in a position of power, steps are taken to abuse it.
It's never a question of if, but when.

 

[gofreak]

People said the same thing about steam years ago now everybody loves them. Who knows what MS has planned in the future?[

How could they possibly have said the same thing about Steam, without being very obviously wrong in what they were saying?

Read the article. It's about the relationship between the store and the operating system. Steam never had first party control over windows, was never in a position to lock features away for Steam games. Sweeney's charge is that Microsoft is behaving anti-competitively by making certain OS features for games exclusive to UWP, and by effectively - by default at least - making UWP software Windows Store only. And while you can dig into settings to sideload UWP software, he doesn't trust MS won't disable this in the future.

 

[pezley]

Of the many, many faults in their windows store policies, I'll point out one of the most egregious:

I do agree with your comments but Microsoft is also providing a way for smaller developers to be able to push games across two large platforms with out huge extra developments. Steam does a lot right but it is just a store front for developers. This is an architecture, infrastructure and sales model. You are right in that they are not comparable. For developers they provide totally different tools.

 

[dude]

As much as I disagree with the way UWA are handled, that's a bunch of hyperbole. But I guess it fits the narrative.

 

[jabberwocker]

Ms only has control of their games "exclusives". The rest are free to come out where ever.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

The best protection we have against Microsoft practices like these is their own rank incompetence when it comes to trying to monopolize things.

Look at GFWL.

Throw enough darts and eventually one will stick...

 

[Quasar]

Monopolise game development? Don't see how. Well no more than via owning the dev environment and OS most PC gaming happens on.

 

[Renekton]

As consoles become more like PCs, PCs become more like Apple.

Amended.

 

[oti]

you're missing the article. read it.

Embrace, extend, and extinguish.

Oh wow. Thanks!

 

[gofreak]

Monopolise game development? Don't see how. Well no more than via owning the dev environment and OS most PC gaming happens on.

Yes, but his charge is that they want to push from that to owning the monetisation of software built using their dev environment and running on their OS. By making it possible to use certain OS features only on UWP. Which is a new matter, I believe - have they ever tied the ability to fully exploit the OS behind their own distribution model before?

 

[Keasar]

The Universal Windows Platform is a fully open ecosystem

Which is why programs bought on the Windows Store is stored in a closed folder you cannot access under any circumstance and if you do it breaks the programs inside from being updated and also turns out to contain nothing but a ton of encrypted files you can't do anything with.

 

[grandwizard]

This a huge deal and it had to be really worrying for Sweeney to write a piece like this and I'm glad he did. It really sounds like the future that Gaben was warning about in the run up to SteamOS. I think when Win10 came out it was so good and there was really no sign of an intrusive app store that we just thought that MS had abandoned the idea, but this new push for the store and UWP while dangling MS exclusives to get people into them just seems wrong.

Why is it that every time Microsoft tries to dip back into PC gaming it's always to make it worse?

 

[CryptiK]

Eh give it a year and MS will back down from Windows gaming and blame the customer base and developers.

 

[John Wick]

And steam isn't becoming a monopoly of distribution right? Heh.

I was waiting too see how many posts it took before Steam and monopoly were mentioned. If Steam is a monopoly then they aren't doing too good a job of it.

 

[Krejlooc]

Of course it is easy lol

You choose what Store to sell your game... you can choose WS, Steam, Origin, etc... that won't change.

If MS want their own games on WS exclusive it is fine like Valve games will be exclusives to Steam.

If a dev wants to make a exclusive deal with MS and WS it is fine too... the deal can be good for the devs.

Sorry but people are overrating for nothing... devs are open to choose what they thing is better for them.

this isn't really about consumers, honestly. It's not about which storefront to use. It's about defacto standards.

The push these last few years to get developers over to Linux, it's been fascinating as an actual developer. Seeing valve's presentation on their solutions and what precisely the problem facing linux development is. The end consumers really miss what the conflict is all about. Many of microsoft's development products including direct X, and their visual studio IDE and debugger, have become defacto industry standards at the expense of atrophy of their competition. Given their weight in the computer industry, it becomes destructive when they push proprietary products so heavily.

These last several years, for the first time in a good decade, a lot of alternatives have been propped up and given a serious jolt. Everybody uses DirectX because OpenGL extended by SDL was significantly different and outdated. Now we have SDL 2.0 and Vulkan.

All this ties into microsoft's philosophy of embrace, extend, extinguish.

 

[RedSparrows]

strong revisionist history

I remember HL2's release and the furore about it being on Steam etc etc. Didn't take long for the tune to change.

That said, MS would be stupid and malicious if they try to close down openess on the PC. I am quite happy, actually, with their Win 10/Xbox thing, but only if they keep humble pie on their table at all times. Precedent suggests it won't be for long, sadly.

 

[wapplew]

Now I want to see MS man up and fucking make Windows close system and see the fallout.
No one accuse Apple monopolize iOS game development, go ahead and try MS, since they want to be Apple so bad.

 

[MCD]

I have games on Steam. Games on Win10 Store.

I will let the big boys fight and enjoy the ride. IMO both need improvement, especially so for the Win10 Store.

 

[DancingNalwood]

We'll make our own OS! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the OS we'll just use steam's.

But in all seriousness, I see them giving in again.Though hopefully someone in the company makes the suits see reality. I mean, look how much the xbox turned around when they decided to give consumers what they wanted.

 

[Lanrutcon]

This a huge deal and it had to be really worrying for Sweeney to write a piece like this and I'm glad he did. It really sounds like the future that Gaben was warning about in the run up to SteamOS. I think when Win10 came out it was so good and there was really no sign of an intrusive app store that we just thought that MS had abandoned the idea, but this new push for the store and UWP while dangling MS exclusives to get people into them just seems wrong.

Why is it that every time Microsoft tries to dip back into PC gaming it's always to make it worse?

Because MS hasn't changed one bit.

 

[Pooya]

It's interesting that he even goes out of his way to take a dig at Google but there isn't a single mention of Apple in here. It's not that he's wrong here but this guy is one of the biggest sponsors of Apple, going up on stage to promote new APIs like metal that just aim to further lock developers into Apple ecosystem rather than open APIs, much like his criticism here of UWP here. He's the guy that criticized google for not being controlling enough, saying they need to more evil a few years back about why they're ignoring game development for Android. It's good that he's speaking up here but maybe he should start from his own company and not make it look like if Epic games is partnered in for the act and their interests are secured, it's OK.

 

[CecilRousso]

Ms only has control of their games "exclusives". The rest are free to come out where ever.

RIght now, yes.

The problem is that Microsoft will, unless enough people react, push UWP instead of Win32 from now on, and make it more difficult for developers to stick with what's being used today.

 

[ekim]

It's interesting that he even goes out of his way to take a dig at Google but there isn't a single mention of Apple in here. It's not that he's wrong here but this guy is one of the biggest sponsors of Apple, going up on stage to promote new APIs like metal that just aim to further lock developers into Apple ecosystem rather than open APIs, much like his criticism here of UWP here. He's the guy that criticized google for not being controlling enough, saying they need to more evil a few years back about why they're ignoring game development for Android. It's good that he's speaking up here but maybe he should start from his own company and not make it look like if Epic games is partnered in for the act and their interests are secured, it's OK.

Apple paid opinion piece confirmed!

Spoiler

/jk

 

[Krejlooc]

I do agree with your comments but Microsoft is also providing a way for smaller developers to be able to push games across two large platforms with out huge extra developments.

Oh this is nonsense, btw. Universal windows applications? Write once, launch everywhere? That's been an industry wide push for years now. This isn't some miracle holy grail coming only from microsoft. I saw an SDL 2.0 application "written once, deployed twice" on both iphone and windows 7 at steam dev days.

Besides, for most game developers using an enormous engine, most of these issues are significantly abstracted for them.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Apple only has like 10-15% tops of the PC market, hence why they get a free pass from people.

Well it most certainly won't stick in the short term but I am sure MS think eventually people will find a way to accept it and it will become the norm and people will make excuses for it etc.

That's how these things always start, massive outrage followed by people leaving and then the remainder of people who stay accept it, then after a while it becomes the norm and the people who left return.

MS know what they are doing, they want to monopolize the platform only problem is I think they underestimate the PC audience and something like this won't wash over and be accepted ever, PC has and always will be an open platform.

I swear I heard this exact same argument in 2013 with the Xbone. Remind me what happened then...

 

[Krejlooc]

I remember HL2's release and the furore about it being on Steam etc etc. Didn't take long for the tune to change.

That's a pretty superficial reading of what's going on. What you are saying is people had complaints about steam, then things got better, so people's complaints about microsoft's store policies will eventually go away.

Except the complaints and implications are radically different.

 

[Theanine3D]

Good on Tim Sweeney for having the guts to tell it like it is. Many people still dismiss Valve's efforts with SteamOS but Gabe was right all along to start that endeavor. In the next 10 or 20 years if MS locks down Windows even further, the investments being made into Linux right now will be looked back on as smart and forward-thinking.

 

[pezley]

I think it just needs to be looked at as a very separate platform to steam.

This isn't the same PC gaming that we are used to, it's a way to bridge the gap between console and PC's as a gaming platform. This will be aimed at those who want the Xbox platform on PC


eventually I can just see the Same GUI the Xbox has being launch-able from with in windows. Xbox one and Xbox for windows will be the same thing with just scalable hardware to enable PC users to push resolution & frame rate higher than on the hardware locked console.

Build a gaming PC and launch Xbox for Windows and you have your futureproofed upgradable Xbox. Want a cheaper and more convenient platform. Buy the standard retail xbox.

I think MS were being honest when they said they didn't want to compete with Steam. Steam will always be the default PC gaming gateway and they would be stupid to assume otherwise. It's got a great foothold and people have no reason to dislike it. This is merely a way to give people with a high end PC the xbox experience.

 

[jelly]

That's a very good read, don't skip the whole article.

The only thing that I can understand from Microsoft's perspective is the security of apps through the store compared to getting UWA apps from elsewhere like Win32 apps.

I'm still not sure how Microsoft could reach the bad end game, wouldn't that just be the end of Windows. I can only think there would be a tipping point in customer use of UWA that would leave developers no choice but to support Microsoft's bad ways.

 

[Raide]

RIght now, yes.

The problem is that Microsoft will, unless enough people react, push UWP instead of Win32 from now on, and make it more difficult for developers to stick with what's being used today.

Is the main purpose of UWP to make is way easier to have software work on a wider variety of devices? Less messing around with multiple ports working on consoles, PC's and handheld devices etc.

 

[RedSparrows]

That's a pretty superficial reading of what's going on. What you are saying is people had complaints about steam, then things got better, so people's complaints about microsoft's store policies will eventually go away.

Except the complaints and implications are radically different.

My point was more general, really: complaints occurred, but they died down because a) Steam is actually good (although the complaints at the time could still be valid, in and of themselves) and b) more relevantly, people got used to it.

That's not to say I think any strong move by MS to shutdown other aveneues on PC is fine 'cos we'll get used to it'. Not at all.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think it just needs to be looked at as a very separate platform to steam.

This isn't the same PC gaming that we are used to, it's a way to bridge the gap between console and PC's as a gaming platform. This will be aimed at those who want the Xbox platform on PC


eventually I can just see the Same GUI the Xbox has being launch-able from with in windows. Xbox one and Xbox for windows will be the same thing with just scalable hardware to enable PC users to push resolution & frame rate higher than on the hardware locked console.

Build a gaming PC and launch Xbox for Windows and you have your futureproofed upgradable Xbox. Want a cheaper and more convenient platform. Buy the standard retail xbox.

I think MS were being honest when they said they didn't want to compete with Steam. Steam will always be the default PC gaming gateway and they would be stupid to assume otherwise. It's got a great foothold and people have no reason to dislike it. This is merely a way to give people with a high end PC the xbox experience.

everything you're postulating about these store policies bringing already exists in PC gaming, via popular non-microsoft applications. These types of initiatives work better when everybody is pulling towards the same direction, preferably along an open standard. Microsoft is reinventing the wheel here.

 

[gofreak]

It's interesting that he even goes out of his way to take a dig at Google but there isn't a single mention of Apple in here. It's not that he's wrong here but this guy is one of the biggest sponsors of Apple, going up on stage to promote new APIs like metal that just aim to further lock developers into Apple ecosystem rather than open APIs, much like his criticism here of UWP here. He's the guy that criticized google for not being controlling enough, saying they need to more evil a few years back about why they're ignoring game development for Android. It's good that he's speaking up here but maybe he should start from his own company and not make it look like if Epic games is partnered in for the act and their interests are secured, it's OK.

It's true, iOS is a prime example of OS and a single store being tied at the hip. Further, all the hardware is provided by Apple. But it has always been that way. PC has not. Supporting closed platforms elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean it's hypocritical for him to not want Windows - and effectively the PC - to go the same way.

 

[Lanrutcon]

My point was more general, really: complaints occurred, but they died down because a) Steam is actually good (although the complaints at the time could still be valid, in and of themselves) and b) more relevantly, people got used to it.

That's not to say I think any strong move by MS to shutdown other aveneues on PC is fine 'cos we'll get used to it'. Not at all.

The comparison is irrelevant if the issues are vastly different.

 

[Ghost]

Think Tim is about 3 years behind the times, Windows 8 was their attempt to monopolise game and app sales on Windows. Windows 10, Sideloading Universal Apps, and their recent Xamarin purchase are their step down and about face moves.

This is not really about the Xbox business for MS, it's about the Visual Studio business.

 

[Nzyme32]

I remember HL2's release and the furore about it being on Steam etc etc. Didn't take long for the tune to change.

Steam was not a store at the time. It was a client for Valve games. People didn't like it, me included. MS is not even remotely in the same situation

 

[gofreak]

I think it just needs to be looked at as a very separate platform to steam.

This isn't the same PC gaming that we are used to, it's a way to bridge the gap between console and PC's as a gaming platform. This will be aimed at those who want the Xbox platform on PC

Do you think it's fair for MS to use their position as the OS provider to give advantages to their own separate platform, though?

That's Sweeney's sticking point. He doesn't have a problem with MS having their own store. He doesn't even have a problem with them bundling it with Windows. He does have a problem with them reserving OS features and advantages for software sold through that store.

 

[Mechazawa]

I don't think the W10 store is mature enough to make W32 applications go anywhere. And it's not like MS is going to block W32 apps in the future (they are not that stupid). So it's a bit hyperbole here but I see where he is coming from.

I mean, this is the company that once upon a time released the Surface RT.

Win32's not going anywhere for now, but it's not totally farfetched to think that Microsoft might push towards a direction where that get's put on the backburner.