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Tim Sweeney:MS wants to monopolise games development on PCand we must fight it
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
CharlesSurge
Member
I salute Tim Sweeney for voicing this.
Dash_Riprock
Member
A wild George Broussard appears:
Well...they did 180 on the Xbone DRM. That counts for something, right?
They didn't even go through with it and it made an enormous impact. Every decision microsoft has made regarding Xbox in the last several years has been scrambling to undo the impact of that decision. Of course it would have made a huge impact.
Why do you think the Steam Machine are being made now? they already knew what MS was up to. MS put so much energy into fighting Sony for the Living room that Apple & Android was able to take over the world & when MS wanted in on what Apple & Android was doing they was too late & the winners was already decided now they want to return the focus on the PC gamers & try to get the market back from Steam so they can use the PC gamers to lock more people into their ecosystem like people are locked into the Apple & Android ecosystems.
Stilton Disco
Member
Glad to see someone that high profile and who'se been a strong MS supporter in the past speak up about this.
It's really just getting ridiculous how toxic MS's approach to gaming is, I mean sure, they've done alot of good too over the years, but so many of their aggressive, selfish policies hurt our hobby, I'm kind of hoping their PC efforts flop as hard as their console ones, and they either stop trying to undermine everyone else and monopolise everything, or sell off their gaming devision to Samsung or someone similar.
It's really just getting ridiculous how toxic MS's approach to gaming is, I mean sure, they've done alot of good too over the years, but so many of their aggressive, selfish policies hurt our hobby, I'm kind of hoping their PC efforts flop as hard as their console ones, and they either stop trying to undermine everyone else and monopolise everything, or sell off their gaming devision to Samsung or someone similar.
TheHellsLord
Member
What MS said is that UWPs don't need to be deployed using the Windows Store. The sideloading changes mean that you can sideload anytime you want - same as on Android. What's only implied but technically true - just like on Android: alternative Stores could be installed and deploy UWPs.
It works differently then it does for Win32 but Steam could actually sell Games packaged as UWPs.
Win32 is pretty old and there is a lot of stuff that's causing issues now that OSes are also used in Mobile. UWPs are designed to avoid some of that. It's simply a more modern API. Some stuff is still not possible compared to Win32 but they are actually improving that quite a bit since the WinRT APIs were introduced with Windows 8. The use cases that absolutely require you to use Win32 get less and less.
It therefore might be possible that when Win 7 usage dwindles in the future more applications that aren't incremental updates of an existing code base (and Games are a prime example of that) might move to the UWP model (especially given the overlap with the Xbox One). That however does not necessarily mean that those games would be tied to the Windows Store.
Microsoft going back on allowing the sideloading of Apps could be termed anti-competitive and likely would lead to charges if they did so in the event of a competing store seeing success with that.
It works differently then it does for Win32 but Steam could actually sell Games packaged as UWPs.
Win32 is pretty old and there is a lot of stuff that's causing issues now that OSes are also used in Mobile. UWPs are designed to avoid some of that. It's simply a more modern API. Some stuff is still not possible compared to Win32 but they are actually improving that quite a bit since the WinRT APIs were introduced with Windows 8. The use cases that absolutely require you to use Win32 get less and less.
It therefore might be possible that when Win 7 usage dwindles in the future more applications that aren't incremental updates of an existing code base (and Games are a prime example of that) might move to the UWP model (especially given the overlap with the Xbox One). That however does not necessarily mean that those games would be tied to the Windows Store.
Microsoft going back on allowing the sideloading of Apps could be termed anti-competitive and likely would lead to charges if they did so in the event of a competing store seeing success with that.
That's a weak argument. Just because something has been closed since its inception doesn't mean it's ok for it be like that forever. When Apple becomes the most dominant platform for just about anything and it's a very real possibility that it can happen, they are like half way there, they will be controlling every transaction. if you want to keep that open platform idea alive you better start pushing for it every where. Not conveniently ignore it where his interests are perfectly aligned. The whole reason the aggressive push to unified store fronts started from Google and then MS is because of Appstore to begin with, if one genuinely wants to fight back, it's very clear where he should start to push back this movement.
TBiddy
Member
I'm almost afraid to ask this, but which "aggressive, selfish policies" are "hurting" our hobby?
Dandy Lyin
Member
Thankfully MS will forget about PC gaming again in a few months when the Win10 store doesn't instantly dominate the market.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
Until MS starts making other storefronts unavailable on Windows this really seems like a bunch of BS and fear mongering.
Whatever Microsoft wants to do ain't likely to get more people going to the mess that's the Windows 10 Store anyway, but I definitely agree with Tim on the solutions, especially his second point:
Open up the UWP to everyone, Microsoft. That's the only way you're gonna get games workin' this way. I bet some other company can do a way better job.
Open up the UWP to everyone, Microsoft. That's the only way you're gonna get games workin' this way. I bet some other company can do a way better job.
I think one of Sweeney's points, or one of themes hovering around the article, is that they have found in the past not to be within their rights to do whatever they want with their OS when they're in such a dominant position.
icecold1983
Member
i already knew i wasnt buying any windows store games after the pcper article.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Okay, I've read it. Really interesting that The Guardian has run a piece like this, and it would be interesting to have a follow-up piece in say 12 months, authored by Tim Sweeney again. I have to admit to not fully understanding the situation as I'm not a PC gamer at all so a lot of the terms are lost on me, but if I'm reading things correctly then it's hard to see this 'renewed interest' in PC gaming from MS lasting long at all.
Microsoft is no longer the dominant force they once were.
Much of what they are doing is a reaction to this fact: the PC is no longer the dominant way computing gets done, mobile is.
They either get with the times or fade into irrelevance.
YianGaruga
Banned
You mean like exclusively bundling Internet Explorer with it?
ZehDon
Member
They didn't have a choice if they didn't want to crater their brand. Microsoft didn't do us any favours.
Doesn't sound like all is lost to me, MS can sort out a lot of these concerns with some extra work.
Such as making it easier to turn on side loading (I don't think it should be on by default as a lot of PC users don't need it and it could open up security holes so better to just allow users to change it easily) and have better tools/software to allow UAP programs to integrate with other stores and run outside of the Windows Store ecosystem (they could make a better API/shell/wrapper than what they have that could allow "unsigned" UAPs to run independently or with some other store, sort of like the old style .exe).
MS have been good over the last few years open sourcing (or atleast making code visible) a lot of their existing (such as C#) and new technologies. They could open this up a little more (not fully as I understand needing to lock away certain bit for security reasons but those sections could be siphoned off into their own area).
Such as making it easier to turn on side loading (I don't think it should be on by default as a lot of PC users don't need it and it could open up security holes so better to just allow users to change it easily) and have better tools/software to allow UAP programs to integrate with other stores and run outside of the Windows Store ecosystem (they could make a better API/shell/wrapper than what they have that could allow "unsigned" UAPs to run independently or with some other store, sort of like the old style .exe).
MS have been good over the last few years open sourcing (or atleast making code visible) a lot of their existing (such as C#) and new technologies. They could open this up a little more (not fully as I understand needing to lock away certain bit for security reasons but those sections could be siphoned off into their own area).
deadscreensky
Member
I don't think the essay makes a particularly strong case for itself. What's so much worse in Windows 10 -- which as Sweeney admits allows sideloading as an option -- compared to Windows 8, which didn't? Are things genuinely getting worse? Is this a real problem when the essay itself is pointing out how the Microsoft marketplace is already failing? I guess it doesn't hurt to be cautious, but this essay is all over the place. UWP can't be simultaneously a credible threat to everything that PCs stand for and a failure that developers and users are already staying away from.
maquiladora
Member
A wild George Broussard appears:
damn
Problem is there's no easy way to sideload apps built using the UWP. There are two options available in Windows 10, but one requires installing a certificate and the other involves switching on Developer Mode. Both require the use of the command line.
They already did lock their these APIs to the Windows Store when Windows 8 launched, they got away with it because it bombed so hard.
So what Tim wants he's already been given, and it's the direction MS have been moving in for 12 months at least. I honestly think Tim didn't know Windows 10 had enabled sideloading of apps before he wrote the article and then went back and added in a paragraph about it being too hard to do (it's one setting change, exactly the same as OSX and Android) rather than just accepting that he's got much less to moan about than he thought.
Not really, but I don't know the specific features they have locked down to UWP and how much it limits other developers. If you can highlight any that would be good.
As I said before, it will fail because MS can't commit to anything but I don't see it as a bad thing for consumers. Certainly annoying that my games arent in one place but multi buy across Xbox and Windows is certainly a step in the right direction. I can't be the only one guilty of cross buying games in the past
RedSparrows
Member
Can someone explain to me why MS would actively seek this? I mean, I can well believe them trying, on past experience, but I cannot see the rationale. They risk alienating not just a few million PC players, say, but actual devs and publishers, which risks a far greater number of consumers, in effect. I know they're a big business with a desire to make oodles of moolah and whatnot, but can someone explain beyond saying 'MS are evil [and so inept they're gonna fail anyway]'? Not asking to be sarccy, I genuinely don't get why MS would do it. That's not to say, I stress, that I don't believe they could try. This isn't an appeal-as-justification thing, I am genuinely bemused and not very business minded...
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
He wouldn't do that because he made Valve what it is today with the money he made while being at MS.
That one hurts quite a bit. It hurts publishers, it hurts consumers. Only one who gains from it is Microsoft.
wapplew
Member
Developers please make App for Windows phone, so that MS don't have to use PC as leverage and leave PC alone.
?
GTA 5, Skyrim, Dota and CSGO are all on Steam
What the fuck are you even talking about
YianGaruga
Banned
Look at what DirectX did to OpenGL and Internet Explorer did to Netscape for your answer.
You think those are the biggest, most played, and most successful PC games?
Try League of Legends, World of Warcraft, and all of tencent's library.
Well stated. When I posted about Microsoft's approach to iterative game hardware, I thought it was a stroke of genius they were bringing together Win 10 and Xbox platforms. But I thought at the time but didn't write it that no way should we expect to launch Steam or Origin on that dedicated hardware. It would have the guts of a PC, but be closed in the same way a dedicated Steam Box would - just launch directly into the Xbox app. A normal PC would be like it is today - if you want to play Steam games, launch Steam; if you want to play an Origin game, launch Origin. And, if you want to play an Xbox game, launch the Xbox app.
Now the restrictions Microsoft is putting on development and distribution of UWAs is another thing. But, we still have the choice to buy Xbox games vs games offered on other services. And because of this, my argument of no more Xbox exclusives gets thrown out the window because of the Xbox walled garden.
There's still choice, but now it's more on developers rather than consumers.
Sweeney is talking about the PC space, though, wherein Microsoft's OS is still completely dominant. I'm not sure if Microsoft could legally shield themselves from accusations of leveraging their position unfairly in the PC space against other PC storefronts by pointing to the rise of other arenas like mobile etc. Maybe they could, but clearly others within the PC space are viewing Microsoft's intentions as anti-competitive within that arena.
Apart from Minecraft and LoL (maybe WoW), what else could be constituted as a "big" game?
World of Warcraft, Diablo, League of Legends, Minecraft.
AFAICT microsoft's plan is basically:
- ditch xbox hardware.
- create 'xbox on windows' to replace xbox.
- make 'xbox on windows' exclusive to the windows store.
- add all new gaming/gaming hardware features to 'xbox on windows'.
They are basically 'monetizing' the windows gaming API, and if the features are compelling then they simply win.
YianGaruga
Banned
Crossfire
Dungeon Fighter Online
World of Tanks
http://mmos.com/news/superdatas-2015-stats-place-league-of-legends-and-clash-of-clans-at-the-top
Even fucking MapleStory is bigger than Dota and CSGO
Not completely right. You can move some apps after installation.
KurtSloane
Banned
They failed in the console space with their restrictive nonsense, now they are trying it in the PC space.
They only performed a 180 on the Xbox One due to overwhelming market rejection, if that had not been the case they would have carried on.
Maplestory and Crossfire comes to mind.
I don't know either - I'm giving Sweeney the benefit of the doubt that they're significant, given the strength of his attack here. If anyone knows the details it might be a good contribution.
PuppetMaster
Member
Important part of Tim Sweeney's article: "This day has been approaching for over than 18 months,"
So Tim and Epic have know about this for a long time. And sounds like they have been lobbying against this going down this way. But in the end they were not able to persuade MS. This is not some knee jerk reaction to recent information. This is the culmination of many unsuccessful discussions with MS over a year and half. And having a lot of time to think about the consequences.
So Tim and Epic have know about this for a long time. And sounds like they have been lobbying against this going down this way. But in the end they were not able to persuade MS. This is not some knee jerk reaction to recent information. This is the culmination of many unsuccessful discussions with MS over a year and half. And having a lot of time to think about the consequences.
Theanine3D
Member
Tim says right in the article itself that he's been in touch with people at Microsoft over the issue for 18 months before writing this article. They likely told him about the sideloading setting long ago. He's not an idiot.
feint_ruled
Member
Minecraft is the most successful PC game of all time, right? WoW is the biggest MMO of all time. LoL is quite insanely popular. There is no "apart from" in this scenario. I think the point is, you don't NEED Steam to be super successful, that's all.
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