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[NeoIkaruGAF]

The idea of trying to have a speced-up Mega Drive to counter the Jaguar and 3DO made some sense. What made no sense was SEGA America thinking it could be the best selling next-gen system and take on the Saturn, N64 and PS
The moment SEGA Japan showed off a near finished Saturn and announced the winter 1994 date, was the moment the 32X project should have been canned

So many people were bored of the 16-bit generation and wanted to move on and have a complete break.

SoA clearly didn’t believe they could pull off another market coup like they did with the Genesis. So they must have thought that piling up an Empire State Building of add-ons on top of their precious winning horse would magically make it relevant forever, in spite of the hardware being six years old at that point. There is no other reason for failing this much at reading a market they had so brilliantly turned in their favor.

PC-Engine CD was forward thinking. That machine was built with modular upgrades in mind, and it worked very well.
32X was backward thinking. An unnecessary add-on to obsolete hardware, that only robbed resources that should have gone towards a better launch for the Saturn.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Dual sense isn't an add-on mind.

A far better comparison is SONY VR2. It's highly expensive, it lacks the total In-House support from the big AAA In-House studios, the game line is lacking and it's left to 3rd parties to push the system.
Like the Mega CD mind, when both are used they give the user an experience the base system can't match.

RE 8 is awesome in VR and Batman Returns offered scaling way above what the base Mega Drive could do even the Neo Geo couldn't have handled the rotation effects seen at a hardware level.
I love Rise of the Dragon at is way above what was possible on a base Mega Drive due to storage and full use of the Mega CD audio chip, which helped to put you into the Blade Runner world.

It's easy to look over and forget just how much great audio and speech could add to the game back then.

101% agreed on the PSVR2. I bought one used for 450 euros. Played GT7 which was fucking awesome!! Laptimes increased because of sense of depth etc.

BUT it was the only game that made me say HOLY SHIT!! And this only because I also have a wheel.

Horizon demo? Made a few wank gestures, had a luagh and called it a day.
Star Wars? Fun for 5 minutes tossing shit at a bartender.

Only having the headset for GT7 would be a waste of money atm. So sold it again after 5 days...
There is 0 active support for hardware that costs as much as the console needed to use it.

 

[Team Andromeda]

101% agreed on the PSVR2. I bought one used for 450 euros. Played GT7 which was fucking awesome!! Laptimes increased because of sense of depth etc.

BUT it was the only game that made me say HOLY SHIT!! And this only because I also have a wheel.

Horizon demo? Made a few wank gestures, had a luagh and called it a day.
Star Wars? Fun for 5 minutes tossing shit at a bartender.

Only having the headset for GT7 would be a waste of money atm. So sold it again after 5 days...
There is 0 active support for hardware that costs as much as the console needed to use it.

I got VR2 on its launch too and while I love it, its only really RE8 that has given me the Holy crap moments and I was gutted that the follow-up to Rush of Blood wasn't that good really.
Like the Mega CD when the tech is used and the developer takes their time with the game the results are brilliant and above what you expect from the base system.

Sadly like with the Mega CD, the userbase attachment ratio isn't great for VR and that's what holds it back.

 

[Team Andromeda]

SoA clearly didn’t believe they could pull off another market coup like they did with the Genesis. So they must have thought that piling up an Empire State Building of add-ons on top of their precious winning horse would magically make it relevant forever, in spite of the hardware being six years old at that point. There is no other reason for failing this much at reading a market they had so brilliantly turned in their favor.

PC-Engine CD was forward thinking. That machine was built with modular upgrades in mind, and it worked very well.
32X was backward thinking. An unnecessary add-on to obsolete hardware, that only robbed resources that should have gone towards a better launch for the Saturn.

The PC engine did need had to buy a system card to play CD2 games or looked to bring out the Super Grafx to compete with the Mega Drive spec's, both SEGA and NEC had dull moments

To be fair to SEGA America the thinking of a super Mega Drive was a call from SEGA Japan even early in with talk of a GigaDrive and one got the worry over Trip and EA behind the 3DO and a Jaguar system with much better 2D spec and could also handle 3D at the same price point of the MD/SNES and issues over Saturn hardware being ready.

It was clear early in 1994 Jaguar and 3DO were not going to take SEGAs market share and Japan was going to go with Saturn in late 94. That was the time the 32X should have been killed and all SEGA console production games moved up to Saturn. Sadly SOA thought the 32X could not only take on the Jaguar and win, but also the N64, Saturn and PS.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

No, no, no. Dont try to blame external factors for Sega's dominance back in the day. It's straight up bullshit and you know it.

1. Licensing. Sega had more licensed games then Nintendo could dream of. Sports games lifted sales BIGTIME for Sega. Not the economy. Which still makes me chuckle.
2. Mortal Kombat. They outsold Nintendo 5:1 when the first MK came out and console sales SOARED for Sega. Both Megadrive and Master System

It was only when the full potential of the SNES could be utilized and Nintendo folded and allowed gore on their systems, that they were coming back and them some.

It was all corporate decisions. NOTHING to do with people being poor, man what a steaming pile of bullshit. Nice try though, nice try!

Pull back on the attitude, buddy, and read more carefully. We’re talking Europe here, and people’s bank accounts aren’t the only thing I mentioned.

It’s simple fact that Nintendo systems and games were significantly more expensive than Sega’s in Europe, a market were video games were mostly played on PCs and home computers such as the Amiga. Atari consoles came later to Europe, there was no video games crash, and computer games were easy to just pirate, clone and mod. The Euro market was completely different than the US market.

Consoles were the rich kid’s gaming system in many parts of Europe, cuz the software couldn’t be easily copied and it was expensive. With a computer you would spend big on the hardware, but then software could be had for peanuts forever, if you even ever happened to pay for it.
Master System and NES persisted longer because they could be had for much less when the 16-bit systems arrived. Mega Drive (Genesis) landed way before SNES, was distributed and advertised much better, and cost less enough to make it the better choice for many.

The Mega Drive had a better catalogue of sports games, true, but how many Maddens and EA Hockeys do you think Europe would be interested in? Sensible Soccer was the best footy game of the early 90s and it was available on everything. It’s only in late 1993 that FIFA hit, on MD first, but at that point the console market was set. But tell me again how sports games tipped the scales for Sega, in Europe at least.
Platformers also weren’t so hot as one may think in Europe, so Sonic 2 likely didn‘t put the continent on fire like it did the US.
JRPGs were a mere blimp on the radar. It hardly matters that Sega bothered to localize more than Nintendo, while it is true that Nintendo mostly pretended the genre didn’t exist at all as far as Europe was concerned. I never knew a single console kid who even mentioned a JRPG in those years. I was literally the only one playing the early Mana games.

There’s no way you can attribute the better sales of Sega hardware in Europe in the pre-PlayStation era completely to Sega’s savvy, when Nintendo’s presence was nowhere near comparable to their complete dominance in the US in the 80s. The market was totally different and figures like Kalinske and Hawkins were even more alien to the European market than consoles were.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

I got VR2 on its launch too and while I love it, its only really RE8 that has given me the Holy crap moments and I was gutted that the follow-up to Rush of Blood wasn't that good really.
Like the Mega CD when the tech is used and the developer takes their time with the game the results are brilliant and above what you expect from the base system.

Sadly like with the Mega CD, the userbase attachment ratio isn't great for VR and that's what holds it back.

Its a cycle that has to be broken. Devs dont develop for VR because of the small userbase.
Userbase stays small and is shrinking because of lack of quality software.
Rinse and repeat.

As a sort-of-simracer I'd love to see F1 and Assetto Corsa implement VR. If those 2 implement it, I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.

 

[cireza]

It was a proper, new console.

Nope, it was an add-on. If you expected a brand new console you totally missed the point.

And i wouldn't mind all the straight Genesis to CD ports, or even all the FMV games since that was the trend at the time, if there were as many games that made good use of that extra, expensive hardware.

Don't you realize that all these games use the extra expensive hardware ? Unless I missed Redbook Audio and FMV games on base MegaDrive...

A CD add-on was never meant to boost the visuals of a base console. It is a storage + audio + video solution.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Pull back on the attitude, buddy, and read more carefully. We’re talking Europe here, and people’s bank accounts aren’t the only thing I mentioned.

It’s simple fact that Nintendo systems and games were significantly more expensive than Sega’s in Europe, a market were video games were mostly played on PCs and home computers such as the Amiga. Atari consoles came later to Europe, there was no video games crash, and computer games were easy to just pirate, clone and mod. The Euro market was completely different than the US market.

Consoles were the rich kid’s gaming system in many parts of Europe, cuz the software couldn’t be easily copied and it was expensive. With a computer you would spend big on the hardware, but then software could be had for peanuts forever, if you even ever happened to pay for it.
Master System and NES persisted longer because they could be had for much less when the 16-bit systems arrived. Mega Drive (Genesis) landed way before SNES, was distributed and advertised much better, and cost less enough to make it the better choice for many.

The Mega Drive had a better catalogue of sports games, true, but how many Maddens and EA Hockeys do you think Europe would be interested in? Sensible Soccer was the best footy game of the early 90s and it was available on everything. It’s only in late 1993 that FIFA hit, on MD first, but at that point the console market was set. But tell me again how sports games tipped the scales for Sega, in Europe at least.
Platformers also weren’t so hot as one may think in Europe, so Sonic 2 likely didn‘t put the continent on fire like it did the US.
JRPGs were a mere blimp on the radar. It hardly matters that Sega bothered to localize more than Nintendo, while it is true that Nintendo mostly pretended the genre didn’t exist at all as far as Europe was concerned. I never knew a single console kid who even mentioned a JRPG in those years. I was literally the only one playing the early Mana games.

There’s no way you can attribute the better sales of Sega hardware in Europe in the pre-PlayStation era completely to Sega’s savvy, when Nintendo’s presence was nowhere near comparable to their complete dominance in the US in the 80s. The market was totally different and figures like Kalinske and Hawkins were even more alien to the European market than consoles were.

Some valid points here. Fair enough. Mea culpa.

One other thing I missed completely in my "analysis" is that Nintendo catered more to the preteens/ kids. While Sega went for the adolescents and didn't have to hold back as much violence wise. And teens have jobs, ergo money to buy their own games/consoles.

I had both systems when I was like 13. The Megadrive appealed to me way more than the SNES. It was only when Nintendo did a complete 180 in their strategy that I found myself leaning more towards Nintendo. Mortal Kombat 2 was the deciding factor. It had the better graphics AND it had all the violence.
If they did this switcheroo earlier, history would be a little different.

I just dont think money was a factor as it isnt now. People are willing to pay more money for better products. That was my main gripe.

 

[cireza]

I just dont think money was a factor as it isnt now. People are willing to pay more money for better products. That was my main gripe.

In Europe consoles were way too expensive. You really needed to have a very good professional situation to buy a MegaDrive or SNES for your kids (or yourself). We are talking about maybe 1500 francs back then, or even close to 2000 at launch for the MegaDrive. That was crazy expensive.

This is why the Master System had so much success here. It was much more affordable.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

In Europe consoles were way too expensive. You really needed to have a very good professional situation to buy a MegaDrive or SNES for your kids (or yourself). We are talking about maybe 1500 francs back then, or even close to 2000 at launch for the MegaDrive. That was crazy expensive.

This is why the Master System had so much success here. It was much more affordable.

My dad bought me a Megadrive Sonic bundle with Jewel Master for the modern day equivalent of 150-175 euros. This was in 1992. I think that's a reasonable price?
Could be a VAT thing. Dont know how much of the price was tax in France back in the day?

Edit: Was wrong. It was indeed closer to the 200-225 euro mark which translates to around 500 guilders/ 1500 Franc.... Sorry!
Still way cheaper then my PS2 which was around the 500 euros at launch.

 

[cireza]

My dad bought me a Megadrive Sonic bundle with Jewel Master for the modern day equivalent of 150-175 euros. This was in 1992. I think that's a reasonable price?
Could be a VAT thing. Dont know how much of the price was tax in France back in the day?

Edit: Was wrong. It was indeed closer to the 200-225 euro mark which translates to around 500 guilders/ 1500 Franc.... Sorry!
Still way cheaper then my PS2 which was around the 500 euros at launch.

Well we probably shifted where we put our money with time as well. Buying a house was super expensive back then and banks would have some of their highest interest rate. So spending 2000+ francs in a video-game console and a game wasn't really a priority.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

Well we probably shifted where we put our money with time as well. Buying a house was super expensive back then and banks would have some of their highest interest rate. So spending 2000+ francs in a video-game console and a game wasn't really a priority.

I remember being in Nancy for holiday and went into a gamestore. Had a Neo Geo for sale. When my dad did the numbers I almost shat myself then and there. Now THAT was an expensive one. 4000 francs is I recall correctly.

 

[cireza]

I remember being in Nancy for holiday and went into a gamestore. Had a Neo Geo for sale. When my dad did the numbers I almost shat myself then and there. Now THAT was an expensive one. 4000 francs is I recall correctly.

Yeah, nobody could afford this lol.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Pull back on the attitude, buddy, and read more carefully. We’re talking Europe here, and people’s bank accounts aren’t the only thing I mentioned.

It’s simple fact that Nintendo systems and games were significantly more expensive than Sega’s in Europe, a market were video games were mostly played on PCs and home computers such as the Amiga. Atari consoles came later to Europe, there was no video games crash, and computer games were easy to just pirate, clone and mod. The Euro market was completely different than the US market.

Consoles were the rich kid’s gaming system in many parts of Europe, cuz the software couldn’t be easily copied and it was expensive. With a computer you would spend big on the hardware, but then software could be had for peanuts forever, if you even ever happened to pay for it.
Master System and NES persisted longer because they could be had for much less when the 16-bit systems arrived. Mega Drive (Genesis) landed way before SNES, was distributed and advertised much better, and cost less enough to make it the better choice for many.

The Mega Drive had a better catalogue of sports games, true, but how many Maddens and EA Hockeys do you think Europe would be interested in? Sensible Soccer was the best footy game of the early 90s and it was available on everything. It’s only in late 1993 that FIFA hit, on MD first, but at that point the console market was set. But tell me again how sports games tipped the scales for Sega, in Europe at least.
Platformers also weren’t so hot as one may think in Europe, so Sonic 2 likely didn‘t put the continent on fire like it did the US.
JRPGs were a mere blimp on the radar. It hardly matters that Sega bothered to localize more than Nintendo, while it is true that Nintendo mostly pretended the genre didn’t exist at all as far as Europe was concerned. I never knew a single console kid who even mentioned a JRPG in those years. I was literally the only one playing the early Mana games.

There’s no way you can attribute the better sales of Sega hardware in Europe in the pre-PlayStation era completely to Sega’s savvy, when Nintendo’s presence was nowhere near comparable to their complete dominance in the US in the 80s. The market was totally different and figures like Kalinske and Hawkins were even more alien to the European market than consoles were.

Consoles rich kids systems? LOL what rubbish, what balderdash

Consoles were just something you had as your main Christmas present and I come from and grew up in not just one of the most deprived and poorest parts of Wales, but the UK. So don't give me the money rubbish.
Sonic 2 was massive in Europe not only did it mark the day that games were also sold on Tuesday it smashed the charts Sand you had SEGA Europe proudly boasted of how it brought in more money on one day on sales than the total of Simply Red's current total album sales
Sports games were a big deal that's why the likes of Brian Lara could top the charts in the UK all formate charts on the Mega Drive and Shining Force 2 was a big seller for SEGA Europe so much so they had to get more stock in to meet demand and why SEGA Europe looked to sponsor football and F1


SEGA just did it better than Nintendo in the UK and in parts of Europe and that was helped by the fact they just bought Virgin Mastronic who had clever smart PR people. None better than SEGA's Simon Morris who looked to push consoles from kids' bedrooms into young adult male laps
He looked to do that sort of move right out of the start of the MD life in Europe by pushing the Mega Drive on the James Whale show at 1: AM That was a show that all young males watched for tits and music.

The Mega Drive was the PS of its day, with so much choice with almost every genre covered, a sports fan dream and having the best PR for a gaming platform. SEGA Europe even beat SONY to having demo pods outside a nightclub. Ok, it was Cathy Dennis UK Tours but it was still trying to push consoles outside of a child's bedroom and back in the day, the BBC wouldn't show some of Cathy's music videos on Top Of The Pops

Sonic 1 mind you made the MD when you saw it you wanted it and it was a game your grand or a child could play. Completely non violent (you don't kill anything) and a simple 1 button control.

 

[nkarafo]

Its pointles having a debate with Nkarafo on this matter, he's clearly trolling

Did i hurt your feelings or something?

That guy wasn't even responding to me

Nope, it was an add-on. If you expected a brand new console you totally missed the point.

I expected something that justified the price, which was like paying for a brand new system.

Don't you realize that all these games use the extra expensive hardware ? Unless I missed Redbook Audio and FMV games on base MegaDrive...

Right. I didn't realize they used the scaling hardware to playback the music and FMVs.

A CD add-on was never meant to boost the visuals of a base console. It is a storage + audio + video solution.

It literally has custom graphics hardware in it. And it's price clearly reflects that. So yeah, i was expecting more, my mistake i suppose. I wasn't the only one though.

There’s no way you can attribute the better sales of Sega hardware in Europe in the pre-PlayStation era completely to Sega’s savvy, when Nintendo’s presence was nowhere near comparable to their complete dominance in the US in the 80s. The market was totally different and figures like Kalinske and Hawkins were even more alien to the European market than consoles were.

In Greece we didn't have an official retailer for Nintendo until 1991. We pretty much missed the NES basically until very late in it's life and it was sold along the Game Boy and the new SNES, as the cheaper solution.

 

[cireza]

I expected something that justified the price, which was like paying for a brand new system.

Yet it wasn't a brand new system and you knew it. I had unrealistic expectations and then I was disappointed, oh no !

Right. I didn't realize they used the scaling hardware to playback the music and FMVs.

Good job on totally ignoring what I said earlier :

So if not all games use the Dualsense, then the overall PS5 games library and even the console itself suck ? These are capabilities. They are there if developers want to use them, but you don't have to cram all the technical capabilities of your console in every single game.

Thinking that every single game has to use all the features is completely dumb. What's the point ?

Every single SNES game does not make use of Mode 7, so the console and library suck. Also, games don't display 256 colors at 512x448 all the time, even though it is written on the box ! I paid a premium price for a brand new 16 bits console and all of its features are not used in every single game, WTF !?

For every single platform out there the expectations are to have great games, but for the SEGA-CD it is to have games that use ALL its features at the same time. This is beyond ridiculous.

 

[nkarafo]

Thinking that every single game has to use all the features is completely dumb. What's the point ?

Every single SNES game does not make use of Mode 7, so the console and library suck. Also, games don't display 256 colors at 512x448 all the time, even though it is written on the box ! I paid a premium price for a brand new 16 bits console and all of its features are not used in every single game, WTF !?

For every single platform out there the expectations are to have great games, but for the SEGA-CD it is to have games that use ALL its features at the same time. This is beyond ridiculous.

When did i say i wanted EVERY single game to utilize the hardware? Why put words in my mouth just to make me look that unreasonable?

Your arguments in this particular reply are pointless exaggeration, i never implied any of that shit. Come on

There's a massive gap between your "every single game" nonsense and "only a handful" that i argued. I just wanted more games to utilize the hardware, that's all. There are very few that do. On the contrary, there are a lot of SNES games that utilize mode 7, since you mentioned it, no problems there.

The extra CPU and scaling capabilities could make the console a very good platform for scaler arcade ports, for instance. Not arcade perfect ofc, but much better than the Genesis ports. There could be a better version of Outrun, Space Harrier, After Burner, etc. Or how about a better version of Road Rash instead of the basic Genesis port we got?

It's not like i'm the only one who expected more from this machine. Most Sega CD owners did. You are really in the minority if you think there wasn't wasted potential there.

 

[cireza]

There are very few that do.

You are aware that every single game released uses the SEGA-CD to some extent, right ?

Not arcade perfect ofc, but much better than the Genesis ports. There could be a better version of Outrun, Space Harrier, After Burner, etc.

I get it, we didn't get a few ports you would have liked to see. These games already had ports on MegaDrive, so SEGA probably thought that it was pointless. We did get Soul Star and both Batman games, so it's not like there wasn't anything. There is also Night Striker which a favorite of mine but that you are going to dismiss quickly I am sure.

I think you greatly overestimate the ability of the console to scale smoothly tons of content. As stated before, you are locked at 20fps if you are lucky depending on the amount of things you stream. It would have never been smooth enough for these games.

And we got a ton of other games on the system, and it is not as if scaler games were that amazing to begin with...

 

[nkarafo]

You are aware that every single game released uses the SEGA-CD to some extent, right ?

To some extend.... Yes i know that. All games use the CD laser and motors. I think you are trying to be obtuse on purpose here because you know exactly what i mean.

These games already had ports on MegaDrive, so SEGA probably thought that it was pointless.

So an Outrun port that would easily utilize the scaling hardware for a better port was pointless because it was already released on the Genesis... But a straight port of Pitfall (that was already on the Genesis as well) was important! But wait, it seems like your argument doesn't make any lick of sense because the Sega CD did got a Road Rash port and an After Burner port. But ofc never made any improvements by utilizing the hardware these games were begged for.

There is also Night Striker which a favorite of mine but that you are going to dismiss quickly I am sure.

Yeah, i'm sure you can put some words in my mouth for that too.

I think you greatly overestimate the ability of the console to scale smoothly tons of content. As stated before, you are locked at 20fps if you are lucky depending on the amount of things you stream.

It's not perfect but still better than what the Genesis could pull off. They could easily be the best home ports in 1992/93.

 

[cireza]

But a straight port of Pitfall (that was already on the Genesis as well) was important!

Hilarious example. Pitfall lead platform was the SEGA-CD.

Road Rash port and an After Burner port. But ofc never made any improvements by utilizing the hardware these games were begged for.

These are the exact same games as on MD ? No they aren't. Road Rash actually includes videos and soundtrack from the 3DO game, as well as many other adjustments. I don't think the MegaDrive can achieve the video/music... After Burner was an entirely different game as well and uses redbook if I am not mistaken. Again, how do you achieve this on MegaDrive already ?

They could easily be the best home ports in 1992/93.

What you don't understand is that nobody cared anymore about these games, it was too late. The arcades were getting their first 3D games, who cared about ports of these games from the 80s ? I'd rather have both Batman games and Soulstar, at least they felt like they were products of their time.

 

[nkarafo]

What you don't understand is that nobody cared anymore about these games, it was too late.

Not too late for the 32X ports though.

Road Rash actually includes videos.....

I stopped reading after you said videos.

I can see how someone who sees videos and FMVs as something so important would like this system. Fair enough.

Hilarious example. Pitfall lead platform was the SEGA-CD.

I don't really care but nope

Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure

segaretro.org

 

[cireza]

Not too late for the 32X ports though.

I enjoyed both ports but let's be honest here, nobody cared. And it was the same with the same games ported to Sega Ages Volume 1 on Saturn.

I can see how someone who sees videos and FMVs as something so important would like this system. Fair enough.

They are part of the atmosphere of playing SEGA-CD games. They are not important for you, and many others, and I that's perfectly understandable. But they cannot be reproduced on the base MegaDrive. They were a reason for the add-on to exist in the first place, just as much as the ASIC chip, improved audio and large storage of disc.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I'll just reiterate that the add-on model had already failed with Sega CD. Maybe if they held off on Sega CD and put it out with 32x tech a couple of years later it could have been interesting. But with benefit of hindsight, the add-on game ain't it. Better Saturn design. Better (and non-stealth $400) launch. And a little more forward thinking game design. Virtua Fighter pack-in ain't it.

Snatcher, Sonic CD and cut above arcade ports are enough to make the Sega CD worthy, yes it was an also ran, but probably the most worthy of the weird 90s also rans, compared to something like say, the CDi lol.

2D games were starting to feel really irrelevant with the 32-bit era approaching. Maybe the finances would have panned out a little better but I think it would be more of a case of Sega fading away with less of a fight. Like yeah Dreamcast was a nice step up from PSX but PS2 would still have come along to murder it, along with the ridiculous media hype train (we have to prevent Saddam from acquiring PS2s, lmao)

2D could have found its niche by being gaming on a budget as well as, let's face it, being easier on the eyes than early 3D, which was only impressive because it was 3D and always looked kind of bizarre, a 1997 Sonic 4 that really pushed 2D to its limits, like the prototype Sonic 4, could have wowed in 1997, I know I would have ate it up.

I mean it's just as well on a personal note as the Genesis being dead what was motivated me to get a PS1 in 1998 and I wouldn't trade more Genesis support for that, but it's an interesting "what if?" to think about.

Genesis was real swell. SNES still takes the win, walls of text from Sega avatars aren't gonna relitigate facts that were settled 30 years ago in school lunchrooms.

It's number 2, but a very, very close one or at least, the SNES and the Genesis were different enough in interesting ways to make both worthy, unlike today's Series X and PS5, which are basically interchangeable when it comes to third party games and both consoles first party games are meh Wokeness.

Ahh yes, the Sega kid who didn't have Super Nintendo but is such an expert on everything.

Spoiler: more facts

NES > SMS
SNES > Genesis > Turbo Grafx 16
PS1 > N64 > Sega Saturn
PS2 > Xbox > GameCube
Xbox 360 > PS3
PS4 > Xbox One

^in case you wanted to find something else to be angry about.

This is pretty dang close to nail on the head, though I would argue about maybe GameCube and Xbox, Cube had RE4, Xbox never did, I friggin' love the original Xbox but I feel it's a fair debate over who gets number 2 for that gen, though undoubtedly PS2 was number 1.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

This is pretty dang close to nail on the head, though I would argue about maybe GameCube and Xbox, Cube had RE4, Xbox never did, I friggin' love the original Xbox but I feel it's a fair debate over who gets number 2 for that gen, though undoubtedly PS2 was number 1.

I had it as Xbox/Gamecube at first. And admittedly my time with Gamecube was pretty limited. Gamecube and N64 were the consoles on the list that I skipped and only played via friends. On a personal basis Xbox was my number one that gen. A modded Xbox with XBMC was glorious. And it was also awesome on EDTV or early HDTV. And early Xbox Live was kind of cool, I was used to online from PC but bundling in a headset with Xbox Live gave it a whole different vibe. Gamecube didn't really have the top tier Nintendo stuff I expected. Didn't care about Smash Bros... didn't like Wind Waker that much. Or really Twilight Princess which I assign to the Wii anyway.

I didn't throw Wii or Switch into the list as they kind of exited the console power wars to do their own thing. Optional companion pieces to the main consoles.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I had it as Xbox/Gamecube at first. And admittedly my time with Gamecube was pretty limited. Gamecube and N64 were the consoles on the list that I skipped and only played via friends. On a personal basis Xbox was my number one that gen. A modded Xbox with XBMC was glorious. And it was also awesome on EDTV or early HDTV. And early Xbox Live was kind of cool, I was used to online from PC but bundling in a headset with Xbox Live gave it a whole different vibe. Gamecube didn't really have the top tier Nintendo stuff I expected. Didn't care about Smash Bros... didn't like Wind Waker that much. Or really Twilight Princess which I assign to the Wii anyway.

I didn't throw Wii or Switch into the list as they kind of exited the console power wars to do their own thing. Optional companion pieces to the main consoles.

Personally I really liked Nintendo's first party output for the Cube, though I've always been kinda meh on Twilight Princess, but REmake is one of my all time fav games, so it's a pretty tough choice between it and Xbox for number 2.

Xbox probably wins though for simply having more to play on it that's worthwhile, outside of Nintendo and Capcom GameCube was pretty lean for exclusives, but it's a debate whether what was on the Cube is better than what was on the Xbox, both were very good so it's a fair debate.

As for today, I think Switch is a clear winner for this current gen lol (I mean PC is the real winner, but that's not a console).

 

[Togh]

How the hell did this thread become SNES vs Genesis?


Oh cut that out. Yes, Genesis definitely had a better and faster CPU than the SNES but saying the SNES only had better color than the Genesis is an extreme understatement. Yes, bringing up Mode 7 is basic but it was still impressive tech that allowed SNES games to pull off very amazing things, including a form of rotation and scaling. The SNES could also do transparency without the use of dithering. I'm not here to say one was distinctly better than the other, but you need to calm the Sega fanboying down. While I'll give it to you for finding a developer who worked on both and chose the Genesis over the SNES, ONE programmer isn't exactly the most convencing. I'm sure some devs and programmers felt the opposite way back then.

Nah, the dude said it had better graphics and I assume he was thinking about the colors, but what make better graphics? Purely working with more colors on screen doesn't automatically make it look better, I think that more stuff moving on the screen and more layers of parallax scrolling in the background can make a better looking game. Also, you must take in count that during that time, these consoles were designed for CRTs, so the use of dithering to simulate transparencies used to do the job. And it doesn't matter if I showed only one musician and one programmer, they presented facts with arguments explaining why, not just the "I think" argument like fanboys do.

 

[tkscz]

Nah, the dude said it had better graphics and I assume he was thinking about the colors, but what make better graphics? Purely working with more colors on screen doesn't automatically make it look better, I think that more stuff moving on the screen and more layers of parallax scrolling in the background can make a better looking game. Also, you must take in count that during that time, these consoles were designed for CRTs, so the use of dithering to simulate transparencies used to do the job. And it doesn't matter if I showed only one musician and one programmer, they presented facts with arguments explaining why, not just the "I think" argument like fanboys do.

Agreed that graphics are subjective but when bringing up what each console could do and couldn't, the SNES could do actual transparency. It also could do sprite rotation off the Mode 7 layer without the FX chip (Kirby Super Star did it). I said having proof at all was a good thing but just one programmer opens up the argument that I could go out and find where a different programmer chose the SNES as better to program for than the Genesis.

Point I was making was that "Just better colors" was an understatement when it comes to the SNES's hardware capabilities compared to the Genesis.

 

[Togh]

Agreed that graphics are subjective but when bringing up what each console could do and couldn't, the SNES could do actual transparency. It also could do sprite rotation off the Mode 7 layer without the FX chip (Kirby Super Star did it). I said having proof at all was a good thing but just one programmer opens up the argument that I could go out and find where a different programmer chose the SNES as better to program for than the Genesis.

Point I was making was that "Just better colors" was an understatement when it comes to the SNES's hardware capabilities compared to the Genesis.

Oh Yeah? Then please, by all means, find a programmer who claims SNES was better to program for than the Genesis. There's a reason there are tons of homebrews been make for the genesis to this day and not so much for the SNES, it's because the processor was that more malleable to work for, less limited, it all depended on your skills, meanwhile the SNES processor limited the developer to work with its pre-stabilished functions, anything beyond what it was made to work for needed extra chip and if you wanted to make it on pure brute force without the aid of any extra chips, the load becomes too heavy for the processor to handle and you will have to sacrifice a lot to have anything playable or with little slowdown.

Also, I thought Kirby Super Star made use of the SA-1 chip for extra processing power?

A greater color palette to work for, a build-in chip to do background rotation (mode 7) and transparencies indeed are cool, but all these features are "in your face" stuff that achieved their goal of giving a first impression of being "something more" but as I said, in the end when it comes down to try and make anything different, SNES just couldn't. Also, the resolution was pretty shitty lol

 

[Team Andromeda]

Oh Yeah? Then please, by all means, find a programmer who claims SNES was better to program for than the Genesis. There's a reason there are tons of homebrews been make for the genesis to this day and not so much for the SNES, it's because the processor was that more malleable to work for, less limited, it all depended on your skills, meanwhile the SNES processor limited the developer to work with its pre-stabilished functions, anything beyond what it was made to work for needed extra chip and if you wanted to make it on pure brute force without the aid of any extra chips, the load becomes too heavy for the processor to handle and you will have to sacrifice a lot to have anything playable or with little slowdown.

You could find some back in the day, quite a few didn't like the MD colour pallet or the lack of colour layering and so on and I also don't get why MD fans need to knock Mode 7 or colour laying. It's like knocking the IN YOUR FACE line scrolling or parallax scrolling effects of the MD which in most cases added nothing to the gameplay other than say in Revenge. I think one of the biggest mistakes with the MD was the complete lack of scaling and rotation hardware coming from SEGA of all people.


Some of the way Ulrta Mega Drive fans look to smash the SNES or the SNES Ultra looks to smash the Mega Drive is a little pathetic. Both systems had their good and bad points and it was a pleasure to own both.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Snatcher, Sonic CD and cut above arcade ports are enough to make the Sega CD worthy, yes it was an also ran, but probably the most worthy of the weird 90s also rans, compared to something like say, the CDi lol.



2D could have found its niche by being gaming on a budget as well as, let's face it, being easier on the eyes than early 3D, which was only impressive because it was 3D and always looked kind of bizarre, a 1997 Sonic 4 that really pushed 2D to its limits, like the prototype Sonic 4, could have wowed in 1997, I know I would have ate it up.

I mean it's just as well on a personal note as the Genesis being dead what was motivated me to get a PS1 in 1998 and I wouldn't trade more Genesis support for that, but it's an interesting "what if?" to think about.



It's number 2, but a very, very close one or at least, the SNES and the Genesis were different enough in interesting ways to make both worthy, unlike today's Series X and PS5, which are basically interchangeable when it comes to third party games and both consoles first party games are meh Wokeness.


This is pretty dang close to nail on the head, though I would argue about maybe GameCube and Xbox, Cube had RE4, Xbox never did, I friggin' love the original Xbox but I feel it's a fair debate over who gets number 2 for that gen, though undoubtedly PS2 was number 1.

Snatcher was little more than a basic port of the PC Eng game and SONIC CD for me was a bitter disappointment for the Mega CD in that it did nothing to show off the Mega CD other than its storage. Most of the main levels made no use whatsoever of the PCM chip to give better sound effects, the quality of the FMV playback was crap and the bonus stage made the most basic use of the ASIC chip, it didn't even use the ASIC chip to scale the UFO's The game needed to be a showcase of the ASIC and PCM chip with every boss battle in Sonic CD making full use of the ASIC chip and also getting high quality PCM sound effect Don't get more wrong they're both good games but were hardly a Mega CD showcase for the extra chips I liked something like Wing Commander where the game used the ASIC chip for the scaling and rotation and made full use of the PCM chip for full speech and some sound effects, putting it well ahead of other 16 bit versions.

2D was dying in the west and we all have to face it. While 2D is now seen as cool after Mario 64, VF, RR it was all about 3D for platform games, fighting, Driving games Even in the Arcades 2D was dying a slow death with the move to 3D which killed many top level 2D developers sadly

 

[nkarafo]

Oh Yeah? Then please, by all means, find a programmer who claims SNES was better to program for than the Genesis.

The Genesis had a much more common or "standard" CPU that was already used in home computers and arcades and it was also faster.

The SNES had more unique/custom graphics features.

Some programmers don't like to bother with bespoke/custom things they don't have much experience with. Obviously such a programmer will prefer the "good old" 68000 Genesis CPU to work with. Other devs love new things that may give amazing results they couldn't get before so these would probably prefer the less familiar SNES design.

 

[Togh]

I think one of the biggest mistakes with the MD was the complete lack of scaling and rotation hardware coming from SEGA of all people.

I believe this had to do with the fact that the console was launched in 1988, in which they say they began to work on its development almost immediately after the Master System was launched (although I don't know if it was after it was launched in Japan in October 1985 or after it was released in the USA in September 1986). Remember that the SNES was launched way later than that, so it was easier to launch it with custom-graphics features. SEGA CD was launched one year after the SNES and it came with all these features built-in.

About the mode 7, I don't know if you were referring to me but I don't remember to ever have bashed the mode 7 in this thread.

 

[dave_d]

The Genesis had a much more common or "standard" CPU that was already used in home computers and arcades and it was also faster.

Well to be fair the 65816 was basically an upgrade of the old 6502 and was mostly backward compatible with it. There would have been a ton of programmers familiar with the 6502 from the Atari 8-bit, C64, Apple 2, and NES so they probably didn't have as much of a learning curve as you'd think. (It'd be like programming a 286 after programming an 8088)

 

[cireza]

Other devs love new things that may give amazing results they couldn't get before so these would probably prefer the less familiar SNES design.

They might prefer the SNES convoluted design but I don't think anybody prefers its asthmatic processor.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Snatcher was little more than a basic port of the PC Eng game and SONIC CD for me was a bitter disappointment for the Mega CD in that it did nothing to show off the Mega CD other than its storage. Most of the main levels made no use whatsoever of the PCM chip to give better sound effects, the quality of the FMV playback was crap and the bonus stage made the most basic use of the ASIC chip, it didn't even use the ASIC chip to scale the UFO's The game needed to be a showcase of the ASIC and PCM chip with every boss battle in Sonic CD making full use of the ASIC chip and also getting high quality PCM sound effect Don't get more wrong they're both good games but were hardly a Mega CD showcase for the extra chips I liked something like Wing Commander where the game used the ASIC chip for the scaling and rotation and made full use of the PCM chip for full speech and some sound effects, putting it well ahead of other 16 bit versions.

2D was dying in the west and we all have to face it. While 2D is now seen as cool after Mario 64, VF, RR it was all about 3D for platform games, fighting, Driving games Even in the Arcades 2D was dying a slow death with the move to 3D which killed many top level 2D developers sadly

Sega CD is probably the only reason we got Snatcher officially translated and dubbed to English, which makes it invaluable, Policenauts never did despite the success of Metal Gear Solid.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sega CD is probably the only reason we got Snatcher officially translated and dubbed to English, which makes it invaluable, Policenauts never did despite the success of Metal Gear Solid.

My issue was it basically a bare bones port, where as something like PopFull Mail was so much better than the PC Version in every dept , my only issue with that game on the Mega CD is I would have like to see a ASIC rotation effect when you hit the Spiders and they move left to right

It's a shame we never had a translation of Policenaughts on the Saturn back in the day since that was the best version of the game and I'm sure it was down once to be Translated.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I believe this had to do with the fact that the console was launched in 1988, in which they say they began to work on its development almost immediately after the Master System was launched (although I don't know if it was after it was launched in Japan in October 1985 or after it was released in the USA in September 1986). Remember that the SNES was launched way later than that, so it was easier to launch it with custom-graphics features. SEGA CD was launched one year after the SNES and it came with all these features built-in.

About the mode 7, I don't know if you were referring to me but I don't remember to ever have bashed the mode 7 in this thread.

But scaling was set to be in that Flair Konix system and the Atari Lynx had scaling and that came out a little after the MD.

I'm also speaking in general terms going way back . You know when Elite SNES fans would make out that the MD had no Japanese RPGs and make fun of the systems pallet.

You then had elite MD fans hit back with every SNES game features slowdown and how Mode 7 is a gimmick.

I never got the bashing of Mode 7 myself

 

[Togh]

But scaling was set to be in that Flair Konix system and the Atari Lynx had scaling and that came out a little after the MD.

Hmm yeah then I don't know but my guess is that it had to do with costs, I read that they were worried that the Motorola 68000 was expensive and would have driven the retail price of the console up greatly, but Sega was able to negotiate with a distributor for a tenth of its price on an up-front volume order with the promise of more orders pending the console's future success. If they added custom integrated graphics hardware, the price of the console would have skyrocketed the year it was released.

 

[simpatico]

Releasing the 32x and the Saturn at pretty much the same time was some of the stupidest shit in gaming history.

I remember getting the 32x for Christmas strictly for a way to play Doom at home. Never got another game for it. 100% worth it. I played that cartridge til the label peeled off.

 

[Badlucktroll]

Why sega do this

 

[Panajev2001a]

I remember getting the 32x for Christmas strictly for a way to play Doom at home. Never got another game for it. 100% worth it. I played that cartridge til the label peeled off.

Not bad, but at that point you could have bought a Jaguar and played an even better version, it was not that much more money…

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I remember getting the 32x for Christmas strictly for a way to play Doom at home. Never got another game for it. 100% worth it. I played that cartridge til the label peeled off.

Got lucky by pushing for the 'family PC', got a 486 not long before Doom came out. And it opened up the entire world of PC games including early online multiplayer (DWANGO). I think I have DOOM for my (later in life) 32x but I need to figure out the cabling mess to get a decent video signal to my CRT. I'm not optimistic about the controls. I remember the first time I played I used the mouse for everything, would roll the ball with momentum to have Doom Guy walk forward. Luckily a homie pointed out that I could use the arrow keys to move forward and aim with the mouse

Why sega do this

Hey. That's not fair. They should only take partial blame for the Game Genie. Maybe the Power Converter could make it on top of Knuckles and we throw in SMS version of Sonic?

 

[RoboFu]

Why sega do this

Because its the most awesome thing you can ever do..

 

[Badlucktroll]

I wanna see how Resident Evil 1 runs on 32x

 

[MafiaMurderBag]

How long does that dude need his fucking intro to be? Sheesh, may as well make us watch him give him self facial.

 

[Trunx81]

When did this thread turn from "Look at this remarkable achievement" into another pure 32x thread?

Anyway .. when in gaming history has an add-on ever been successful?
Mega CD - ok´ish
32x - flop
64dd - never left Japan
GBA card reader - don´t get me started on this one
PS VR - ok´ish, I guess?

 

[Pegasus Actual]

When did this thread turn from "Look at this remarkable achievement" into another pure 32x thread?

Anyway .. when in gaming history has an add-on ever been successful?
Mega CD - ok´ish
32x - flop
64dd - never left Japan
GBA card reader - don´t get me started on this one
PS VR - ok´ish, I guess?

You forgot the GOAT add-on KINECT

 

[nkarafo]

I wanna see how Resident Evil 1 runs on 32x

I imagine it's very possible, as long as you can use a bigger ROM to store the pre-rendered backgrounds.

 

[cireza]

I wanna see how Resident Evil 1 runs on 32x

Would probably be easier to port than Tomb Raider.

 

[Team Andromeda]

When did this thread turn from "Look at this remarkable achievement" into another pure 32x thread?

Anyway .. when in gaming history has an add-on ever been successful?
Mega CD - ok´ish
32x - flop
64dd - never left Japan
GBA card reader - don´t get me started on this one
PS VR - ok´ish, I guess?

The PC Engine CD Rom did ok and Nintendo's Famicom Disc system did ok in Japan

At the end of the day an add-on is never going to do massive business since it's a add-on especially high price add-ons like CD Roms drives or VR