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[Buba Big Guns]

Merkel wanted to have every country at G20 summit next month commit to Paris except the US.

UK and Japan caved at the G7 not to anger Trump and Trudeau wants to scrap every mention of it for the G20 meeting.

Couple things I guess:

Calling out Trump is a symbolic gesture that wouldn't have any effect on his position. The world and Americans already know he's alone in this.

It doesn't really help Canada's position when there are some high stakes negotiations coming up, especially with NAFTA. The Trudeau government is already going all in on the Paris Agreement, so calling out Trump would be great, but strategically it could backfire.

 

[Trouble]

GAF: Friendship ended with Trudeau. Now Macron is my best friend.

 

[Pryce]

I love Merkel.

 

[God Dayumm]

So is this the future of Canada? To not say anything that will offend America? I thought we were our own independent country?

You depend on oil and other exports. Not so independent after all

 

[KorrZ]

Why have I not moved to Europe yet.

 

[Alexlf]

Sounds like the reason Trudeau isn't calling him out anymore is in order to actually push for changes in the energy sector by making a business case around it.

I mean, you can be belligerent (and correct!) and feel good about yourself, or you can actually make changes that will help the environment.

Not necessarily saying that's the way it is, but that's how I interpret what's written.

 

[JordanN]

You depend on oil and other exports. Not so independent after all

So we can't just trade with other countries? Or hell, we have tons of natural resources already here.

 

[truestatic]

I don't know shit about this stuff but i feel like I can't be too upset about Trudeau picking his battles on this stuff. Trump is a bull in a china shop, but he's probably a bull in a china shop that's leaving in a few years. I'm not upset with Justin for playing this diplomatically.

Removing mentions of Paris from this G8 doesn't nullify Paris, right? It doesn't withdraw Canada from Paris? It just avoid thrusting it in Trump's face.

 

[RiverShell]

Well you could vote for the guy rumored who wants to run against him. I hear it's like the Canadian form of trump. You can see how well purity tests worked for democrats in the us. He did one thing you didn't like, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I hate purity tests as much as the next person, but I'm sick of him appeasing Trump. This fantastic strategy hasn't worked for anyone else so far. I'd also never vote for the Cons, I'd just vote NDP like I used to.

 

[firehawk12]

Sounds like the reason Trudeau isn't calling him out anymore is in order to actually push for changes in the energy sector by making a business case around it.

I mean, you can be belligerent and right and feel good about yourself, or you can actually make changes that will help the environment.

Not necessarily saying that's the way it is, but that's how I interpret what's written.

It's easier to get a photo-op where you ride a kayak than to publicly stand up for your convictions against an orange turd monster I guess.

 

[Jotaka]

I am not that surprised Canada is another US unofficial state after all.


BTW there is a crazy talk that I heard from my japanese parents about people closed to Abe thinks that Trump is reincarnation of Geroge Washinton ...
CRAZY SHIT!!!
http://eng.the-liberty.com/2016/6493/
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/my-afternoon-with-a-failed-japanese-cult
Japanese and their Crazy Cults...

My parents are old and bat shit crazy. /smh

 

[Xando]

Couple things I guess:

Calling out Trump is a symbolic gesture that wouldn't have any effect on his position. The world and Americans already know he's alone in this.

It doesn't really help Canada's position when there are some high stakes negotiations coming up, especially with NAFTA. The Trudeau government is already going all in on the Paris Agreement, so calling out Trump would be great, but strategically it could backfire.

It's not like Canada is special. Trump is threatening trade war with germany every other week yet Merkel is still not seen trying to appease Trump. Same with Mexico or China.

Let's not imply appeasing Trump will help canada strategically in any way other than he's gonna fuck you over regardless.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Couple things I guess:

Calling out Trump is a symbolic gesture that wouldn't have any effect on his position. The world and Americans already know he's alone in this.

It doesn't really help Canada's position when there are some high stakes negotiations coming up, especially with NAFTA. The Trudeau government is already going all in on the Paris Agreement, so calling out Trump would be great, but strategically it could backfire.

Yeah appeasement would be calling for the end of the Paris deal and calling for the creation of a new one that Trump would like.

That's appeasement. That's not happening.

While in a perfect world they could all just shit on Trump. Sometimes you have to adjust tactics.

I'm not happy about this but I understand it.

Canada needs to start figuring out a way to uncouple itself from the US but until then it can't just blow it all up in one swoop either.

Shit's complicated

 

[Alexlf]

It's easier to get a photo-op where you ride a kayak than to publicly stand up for your convictions against an orange turd monster I guess.

So you think there will be a better outcome if he called out Trump at the summit? What benefits do you think it would bring?

EDIT: And I mean that genuinely, if you can make a case that calling out Trump more will bring about better environmental policies then I'll definitely switch to that point of view, I'm not being facetious.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

So is this the future of Canada? To not say anything that will offend America? I thought we were our own independent country?

The future of Canada?

 

[Slater]

So you think there will be a better outcome if he called out Trump at the summit? What benefits do you think it would bring?

Friehawk isn't that well informed, going by what he said about Treadeu before, thinking he isn't going balls deep into the Paris agreement

 

[Madness]

Goddamn.

I can find Abe and May capitulating believable but our boy Trudeau? Unless he was not ever our boy Trudeau.

Canada is effectively a US satellite state for now. It has a fraction of the economy that Japan and Germany and other states have and is far more reliant on the US for almost everything. Imports, exports, NAFTA etc. All of our media is US dominated, US dominated businesses, automobiles, stores, etc. Sounds bad to say, but just like Germany refused to sanction Putin or Gazprom during the annexation of Crimea because it would hurt their interests or them more, Canada cannot antagonize the US as much as France or Germany can. Look at Mexico. The shit they took, the border wall, calling their people rapists and the President still tried to work with Trump or plan a visit, because it is out of need/necessity, not want.

 

[truestatic]

It's not like Canada is special. Trump is threatening trade war with germany every other week yet Merkel is still not seen trying to appease Trump. Same with Mexico or China.

Let's not imply appeasing Trump will help canada strategically in any way other than he's gonna fuck you over regardless.

We aren't?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Canada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany

Are you sure? You don't see how Canada is a bit more dependent on trade with the states than Germany?

And let's not pretend that Trump isn't a petty vindictive person. That would be the greatest mischaracterization imaginable.

 

[Krammy]

Not a great message to send and I'm certainly disappointed in the decision, but I also understand it's a complex geopolitical landscape to navigate, so I'll give Trudeau the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[firehawk12]

So you think there will be a better outcome if he called out Trump at the summit? What benefits do you think it would bring?

Do you think sucking up to Trump will magically put Quebec loggers back to work because making Trump feel good will end the tariffs?
I'd just like to have a leader with convictions that stand even when they aren't convenient.

 

[darscot]

I think being combative with Trump is not the best way to make him do what you want. Merkel seems to want to go very hardline with him. Trump is a spoiled toddler and you have to approach him as such. So long as Trudeau sticks with Paris and keeps Canada first I'm perfectly fine with him softly stroking Trump man baby ego to get what he wants.

 

[Moppeh]

Well you could vote for the guy rumored who wants to run against him. I hear it's like the Canadian form of trump. You can see how well purity tests worked for democrats in the us. He did one thing you didn't like, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

?

Are you talking about Kevin O'Leary? He dropped out of the Conservative race ages ago.

 

[JordanN]

The future of Canada?

You're right. I really hate we turned ourselves into a 51st state.
Ever since the British let us go, we should have pursued being a global power.

 

[a916]

Couple things I guess:

Calling out Trump is a symbolic gesture that wouldn't have any effect on his position. The world and Americans already know he's alone in this.

It doesn't really help Canada's position when there are some high stakes negotiations coming up, especially with NAFTA. The Trudeau government is already going all in on the Paris Agreement, so calling out Trump would be great, but strategically it could backfire.

This is a rational take and my mindset as well. Trudeau has pledged and taken course to make Canada cleaner and greener. (I mean BC is almost at it just because a lot of the power comes from hydro).

 

[Zyae]

Governing isnt black and white

 

[gutter_trash]

Canada is effectively a US satellite state for now. It has a fraction of the economy that Japan and Germany and other states have and is far more reliant on the US for almost everything. Imports, exports, NAFTA etc. All of our media is US dominated, US dominated businesses, automobiles, stores, etc. Sounds bad to say, but just like Germany refused to sanction Putin or Gazprom during the annexation of Crimea because it would hurt their interests or them more, Canada cannot antagonize the US as much as France or Germany can. Look at Mexico. The shit they took, the border wall, calling their people rapists and the President still tried to work with Trump or plan a visit, because it is out of need/necessity, not want.

best post of thread that is spot on.

others easily call out names but geo-politics has varying affects across different countries

Canada is economically tied to the hip to the US

 

[espher]

A read of this makes it seem less bad than I thought based on the title.

I would have appreciated more pushback but he's being pragmatic about it, I guess.

 

[Cake Boss]

Lol people here don't understand how much Canada relies on the U.S and that NAFTA negotiations are coming up, could set this country's economy one way or another.

This isn't a hill for your country to die on.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

It's easier to get a photo-op where you ride a kayak than to publicly stand up for your convictions against an orange turd monster I guess.

Actions speak louder than words.

1) Expert analysis points to oil demand peaking sometime in 2030s. That's even with clean energy variables being accelerated. Of course the hope is we get further acceleration in the clean tech area, to get the peak oil demand to occur earlier.

Regardless, that industry is not dying anytime soon and any pragmatic leader would and should leverage it. Of course there is a smart way to do that, and that's to incrementally reduce the impacts from fossil fuels by implementing carbon reduction policies (along with billions in R&D investment in clean tech). That's exactly what the Trudeau government is doing actually.

2) An aggressive carbon tax policy. That alone should equalize fossil fuel costs with other energy sources. It effectively ends a subsidy to that sector by the tax payer.

The Trudeau government has it's plans laid out (publicly available) with respect to climate change, and it's hardly all talk.

 

[Slater]

You're right. I really hate we turned ourselves into a 51st state.
Ever since the British let us go, we should have pursued being a global power.

You don't and never have had the population or energy independence for that, regardless of who is president

 

[Stumpokapow]

I think the whole world is trying to figure out how to strike a balance between totally ignoring America and trying to ensure America doesn't retreat from the world even more than it already has. I suspect you will see lots of cases where leaders can't quite figure out the balance to strike. If Trump keeps being Trump, though, people will move towards ignoring America.

And I think this is a case where honey has failed, and that's why days later Trudeau's foreign minister basically argued that as America has left the world behind, so should the world leave America behind.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Lol people here don't understand how much Canada relies on the U.S and that NAFTA negotiations are coming up, could set this country's economy one way or another.

This isn't a hill for your country to die on.

And it's not like we're withdrawing from the Paris Accord here.

 

[Alexlf]

Do you think sucking up to Trump will magically put Quebec loggers back to work because making Trump feel good will end the tariffs?
I'd just like to have a leader with convictions that stand even when they aren't convenient.

I'm not even speaking about tariffs or NAFTA in this case, I'm talking specifically about climate change policies. As I said in my first post, this:

He suggested simply limiting the statement to energy issues, something that Trump would likely support as well.

Reads to me like Trudeau is going to try and convince Trump that acting in accordance with at least some of the Paris agreement is in fact a benefit for the US economy, which seems like the best way to get him on board with things at the moment.

 

[Xando]

We aren't?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Canada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany

Are you sure? You don't see how Canada is a bit more dependent on trade with the states than Germany?

Not really.

US is the largest trading partner for Canada and the second largest for Germany.

And let's not pretend that Trump isn't a petty vindictive person. That would be the greatest mischaracterization imaginable.

Yes because Trump is not gonna fuck you over just because you are nice to him. He's gonna fuck you over regardless. Just ask Mexico, Qatar or NATO.

 

[Silexx]

For anyone who finds this surprising, the modus operandi that the Liberal government with regards to the US is to aggressively subtweet Trump, all the while putting on a friendly face with him.

There are certainly other tactics that Canada could be using to deal with Trump, but as of right now, this is the strategy that Trudeau and his team have decided to use. And to be clear: this isn't a pure appeasement strategy, it's more that the Canadian government is carefully picking it's spots when they decide to criticize Trump. Just look at this week in the Foreign and Defense policy announcements that the Liberals made that were a total indictment of Trump's administration, but they simply did not name Trump specifically.

 

[Hastati]

Abe and May doing this isn't so surprising, but it's sad to hear of appeasement coming from Trudeau. Maybe it's time to dust off the canoe and pay him a visit to plead some sense into him, does he like smoked salmon?

 

[Frankfurter]

May, Trudeau, Ab,.. very disappointing.

Trump has shown time and again that appeasement doesn't work on him.

 

[Apharmd]

Canada is effectively a US satellite state for now. It has a fraction of the economy that Japan and Germany and other states have and is far more reliant on the US for almost everything. Imports, exports, NAFTA etc. All of our media is US dominated, US dominated businesses, automobiles, stores, etc. Sounds bad to say, but just like Germany refused to sanction Putin or Gazprom during the annexation of Crimea because it would hurt their interests or them more, Canada cannot antagonize the US as much as France or Germany can. Look at Mexico. The shit they took, the border wall, calling their people rapists and the President still tried to work with Trump or plan a visit, because it is out of need/necessity, not want.

Excellent points. I'll admit that I'm a bit salty at the thought of Trudeau doing the same thing as May and Abe, but it is highly inaccurate to categorize it as such due to his circumstance and responsibility.

 

[truestatic]

You're right. I really hate we turned ourselves into a 51st state.
Ever since the British let us go, we should have pursued being a global power.

Our population is more than Texas, but smaller than California. Certainly far smaller than France, Germany, the UK, Japan, Pakistan, India or China. Our GDP per capita greater than France or the UK. What would you have us do, be part of the EU? What do you mean by 'global power,' exactly?

 

[UberTag]

No surprises here from anyone that's been paying close attention to Canadian politics. Trudeau is all about surface-level optics and nothing more.

Main reason I chimed in on the PC leadership race hoping that an actual electable candidate would win to put pressure on Justin. Unfortunately, only the reprehensible options rose to the top and the least reprehensible of that sorry lot in Scheer managed to take the prize.

Hoping the NDP leadership race fares better.

That said, I understand the rationale behind Canada not being able to antagonize the United States as much as France and Germany. It's the "rolling over" for Trump I'm not a fan of. Pick your battles but don't give him an inch when it comes to matters of importance to Canadians and the rest of the world.

 

[truestatic]

Not really.

US is the largest trading partner for Canada and the second largest for Germany.

Did you even bother to look? The USA accounts for 3/4 of Canadian trade and ~10% of German exports. These are not remotely similar numbers.

Yes because Trump is not gonna fuck you over just because you are nice to him. He's gonna fuck you over regardless. Just ask Mexico, Qatar or NATO.

There is fucking and there is fucking. I'm not saying that being diplomatic is definitely the correct course of action - I don't think we can know in advance what the outcome of either course will be. But I don't think we can afford to be cavalier either. I'm certainly not so confident in the correctness of a righteous stand against the orange monster that I'm going to rake Justin over the coals for having no balls over this.

 

[Impeccable]

There are certainly other tactics that Canada could be using to deal with Trump, but as of right now, this is the strategy that Trudeau and his team have decided to use. And to be clear: this isn't a pure appeasement strategy, it's more that the Canadian government is carefully picking it's spots when they decide to criticize Trump. Just look at this week in the Foreign and Defense policy announcements that the Liberals made that were a total indictment of Trump's administration, but they simply did not name Trump specifically.

I mean it's clear to anyone who isn't looking for a cheap pot shot at Trudeau but we live in a knee jerk reactionary internet age where trolls and paid shills look for any "in" to stir the pot.

Let me make it clear - you can be upset with Trudeau and not support his government that is your choice but dramatic and illogical replies drive a narrative people spur on.

People will never learn that making a big deal out of little events hurts on a large scale because of the internet and I'm finding it troubling to see people to eager to find fault in a good thing they lose sight of that fact. This is how that "side" thrives.

I can bet money on the fact this will spur a meme that will have my older conservative family posting around with "Spineless Pretty Boy".

 

[Frankfurter]

Canada is effectively a US satellite state for now. It has a fraction of the economy that Japan and Germany and other states have and is far more reliant on the US for almost everything. Imports, exports, NAFTA etc. All of our media is US dominated, US dominated businesses, automobiles, stores, etc. Sounds bad to say, but just like Germany refused to sanction Putin or Gazprom during the annexation of Crimea because it would hurt their interests or them more, Canada cannot antagonize the US as much as France or Germany can. Look at Mexico. The shit they took, the border wall, calling their people rapists and the President still tried to work with Trump or plan a visit, because it is out of need/necessity, not want.

Except that this is bullshit. Germany was one of the countries PUSHING for sanctions!

Edit: Concerning your last sentence... it's not like Germany or France don't want to meet with Trump...

 

[Twilight Princess]

Jesus, I'm so fucking disappointed in Trudeau. Not sure if I'm voting for him again.

I dont think i can say no to that face tho

 

[pr0cs]

lol. People thought just cause he's handsome and fit he was a stand up dude.

.

That's all he is thou, he doesn't actually work and it shows. The whole party has been beyond useless since they took power. Sadly that's what the masses want, all talk, no substance

 

[jacob armitage]

Canada's official response to the withdraw was quite strong i feel, perhaps Trudeau just felt that wasn't the time or the place knowing it wouldn't change Trump's mind, or likely anthologize him more (though, it certainly was the time and the place).

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is not appeasement.

It's a different tactic.

Not my preferred tactic.

But it is exactly that.

 

[gutter_trash]

Trudeau has his own diagonal strategy on dealing with Trump,
being head-on confrontational would destroy that strategy.

Hunchback Thomass Mucklair can get angry all he wants; nothing productive would come about at yelling at clouds.

Trudeau has Canada's best interest in mind when dealing with the orange turd

 

[Buba Big Guns]

No surprises here from anyone that's been paying close attention to Canadian politics. Trudeau is all about surface-level optics and nothing more.

Main reason I chimed in on the PC leadership race hoping that an actual electable candidate would win to put pressure on Justin. Unfortunately, only the reprehensible options rose to the top and the least reprehensible of that sorry lot in Scheer managed to take the prize.

Hoping the NDP leadership race fares better.

That said, I understand the rationale behind Canada not being able to antagonize the United States as much as France and Germany. It's the "rolling over" for Trump I'm not a fan of. Pick your battles but don't give him an inch when it comes to matters of importance to Canadians and the rest of the world.

Surface level optics to "appease" Trump. Actual policy and statement completely show otherwise. To say that "Trudeau is all about surface-level optics and nothing more" shows that you are not paying attention to the actual substance.

That's all he is thou, he doesn't actually work and it shows. The whole party has been beyond useless since they took power. Sadly that's what the masses want, all talk, no substance

Again, not paying attention at all. Complete revamping of the environmental assessment process to ensure all externalities are considered, billions into R&D and clean infrastructure, plan to revamp long term energy production etc.

For anyone who finds this surprising, the modus operandi that the Liberal government with regards to the US is to aggressively subtweet Trump, all the while putting on a friendly face with him.

There are certainly other tactics that Canada could be using to deal with Trump, but as of right now, this is the strategy that Trudeau and his team have decided to use. And to be clear: this isn't a pure appeasement strategy, it's more that the Canadian government is carefully picking it's spots when they decide to criticize Trump. Just look at this week in the Foreign and Defense policy announcements that the Liberals made that were a total indictment of Trump's administration, but they simply did not name Trump specifically.

Yea, exactly.

 

[lacinius]

Nice spin on that article... it sounds more like a political power play by Merkel given the upcoming German elections as the primary motivation.

Canada's statement after the United States official withdraw could not be any more clear.