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[Huw_Dawson]

Nah it isn't, we don't need that discussion again.

But I did say endlessly prior to this election that this would happen, and I've been proven right. Labour are eurosceptics now - that side of the party has won.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Chuka cares about one thing and that's becoming leader, it was evident right up to the point where he cancelled the function room for his quietly shelved leadership bid. Apparently Corbyn saving the party hasn't dissuaded him too much.

Saying Corbyn actively sabotaged remain is completely wrong, he campaigned just as hard as anyone, the one difference is he refused to share a platform with other parties he wanted to make a Labour Party case which he did and he toured the country on that platform but would he ever get the coverage the official campaigns did, no effing way. The message at the time was 'Corbyn is not fit to do his job' and people fell for it and people discredited everything he ever did.

The amazing thing is how immediately after being stabbed at constantly from every angle, by everyone with an influential voice, everyone turned around to Corbyn after the Brexit vote cried "this is your fault!", WHILE HOLDING ONTO the knivies they were still stabbing him with, astonished as to why he wasn't more influential.

Politics is shit. Necessary, but extremely shit.

 

[TimmmV]

Nah it isn't, we don't need that discussion again.

But I did say endlessly prior to this election that this would happen, and I've been proven right. Labour are eurosceptics now - that side of the party has won.

And if they hadn't, the Tories would have got a majority

 

[Huw_Dawson]

And if they hadn't, the Tories would have got a majority

Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that when the two big parties agree on something, the entire country suffers. See: Iraq.

 

[Jackpot]

So after his party spent every waking moment trashing Corbyns popularity and public confidence, they're upset he wasn't able to be influential enough during brexit vote ¬_¬

Jesus, that's revisionist. We are talking about the same person who was so pro-EU he demanded Article 50 be invoked straight away.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

And if they hadn't, the Tories would have got a majority

I don't understand why or how people don't understand this.

The political and media climate doesn't exist where a candidate can successfully run any kind of anti-brexit campaign and not be absolutely slaughtered.

If labour took the anti-brexit stance Chukka wanted, the only thing Chukka would have to talk about right now is how soon he had to wait to hold a "vote of no confidence" meeting against Corbyn while every other actual winnable issue Chukka wanted to talk about in parliament could simply be swept away with a "the voters rejected you and your party, so I'm going to disregard anything you and your constituents care about".

You can't have your damn cake and eat it.

 

[TimmmV]

Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that when the two big parties agree on something, the entire country suffers. See: Iraq.

The public agreed with that too though, unfortunately the British public often hold shitty points of view pushed by a terrible press

Its more a sign that any when any party agrees with the Tories, the country suffers. See: 2010 General Election

Spoiler

;-)

I don't understand why or how people don't understand this.

The political and media climate doesn't exist where a candidate can successfully run any kind of anti-brexit campaign and not be absolutely slaughtered.

If labour took the anti-brexit stance Chukka wanted, the only thing Chukka would have to talk about right now is how soon he had to wait to hold a "vote of no confidence" meeting against Corbyn.

You can't have your damn cake and eat it.

In their defence, it is a really really bitter pill to swallow.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

I don't understand why or how people don't understand this.

The political and media climate doesn't exist where a candidate can successfully run any kind of anti-brexit campaign and not be absolutely slaughtered.

If labour took the anti-brexit stance Chukka wanted, the only thing Chukka would have to talk about right now is how soon he had to wait to hold a "vote of no confidence" meeting against Corbyn.

You can't have your damn cake and eat it.

A single market stance is not an anti Brexit stance.

Having his cake and eating it is exactly what Corbyn is trying to do when it comes to the issue. He is not a credible opposition to the Tories on Brexit.

 

[Hazzuh]

Jesus, that's revisionist. We are talking about the same person who was so pro-EU he demanded Article 50 be invoked straight away.

He's so pro-EU he favoured us leaving the EEC in 1975, voted against the Maastricht treaty in the 1990s and the Lisbon treaty in the 2000s.

He's so pro-EU that the Welsh Remain campaign director spoke of his "complete disinterest" during the referendum. He's so pro-EU that his office refused to put pro-EU content in speeches during the referendum.

 

[Acorn]

Well done you fucking idiot. You've successfully changed the news cycle from how weak May is to the mess labour is.

Genius.

 

[Beefy]

I am a Lib Dem voter most of the time. But voted for Labour as Lib Dems have no chance, least voting for Labour means they can hopefully win in the next election. Why Lib Dems carry on being nothing sadly.

 

[OverBlood 3]

From 2014:
Labour toughens up on immigration as shadow cabinet minister calls for end to free movement of EU jobseekers
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chuka-umunna-immigration-labour-toughens-3009396

Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna said the party wanted free movement of workers, not those looking for work

This guy is a clown.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Chuka cares about one thing and that's becoming leader, it was evident right up to the point where he cancelled the function room for his quietly shelved leadership bid. Apparently Corbyn saving the party hasn't dissuaded him too much.

Saying Corbyn actively sabotaged remain is completely wrong, he campaigned just as hard as anyone, the one difference is he refused to share a platform with other parties he wanted to make a Labour Party case which he did and he toured the country on that platform but would he ever get the coverage the official campaigns did, no effing way. The message at the time was 'Corbyn is not fit to do his job' and people fell for it and people discredited everything he ever did.

This part isn't aimed at you this is just a general point:

It's also unfair to say 'young people' didn't understand his stance on Brexit, they're much smarter than your average voter, they actually read stuff.

He actively sabotaged remain. There is a 21 point list floating around in the previous election thread that detailed the specific things he did to undermine remain, it wasn't about sharing platforms, it was about getting brexit, which is what led to the leadership challenge.

Corbyn could've stopped Brexit. He didn't want to.

I'm not advocating challenging him again off the back of the success of the election, however let's not re-write history. I'm extremely bitter about the referendum campaign as I was a part of it.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

From 2014:
Labour toughens up on immigration as shadow cabinet minister calls for end to free movement of EU jobseekers
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chuka-umunna-immigration-labour-toughens-3009396

Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna said the party wanted free movement of workers, not those looking for work

This guy is a clown.

This is not necessarily incompatible with prefering single market membership now.

 

[Oriel]

Normal service has been resumed I see. Hopefully that'll be the end of all the obnoxious Corbyn arse-kissing. Corbyn is every bit the Brexiteer as those in the Tory far right and UKIP, it's a shame so many got suckered in with all that "Corbyn-mania" bollox during the election.

 

[Beefy]

Yep

Normal service has been resumed I see. Hopefully that'll be the end of all the obnoxious Corbyn arse-kissing. Corbyn is every bit the Brexiteer as those in the Tory far right and UKIP, it's a shame so many got suckered in with all that "Corbyn-mania" bollox during the election.

Sure....

 

[Moze]

Normal service has been resumed I see. Hopefully that'll be the end of all the obnoxious Corbyn arse-kissing. Corbyn is every bit the Brexiteer as those in the Tory far right and UKIP, it's a shame so many got suckered in with all that "Corbyn-mania" bollox during the election.

UKIP members voted and campaigned for remain?

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

UKIP members voted and campaigned for remain?

Corbyn wanted to leave the EU before UKIP were even a party.

 

[Hyams]

From 2014:
Labour toughens up on immigration as shadow cabinet minister calls for end to free movement of EU jobseekers
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/chuka-umunna-immigration-labour-toughens-3009396

Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna said the party wanted free movement of workers, not those looking for work

This guy is a clown.

Wanting to reform how free movement works in the single market isn't the same as wanting to leave the single market.

This is 100% compatible with what he's trying to achieve now. You're reaching.

 

[oti]

Corbyn wanted to leave the EU before UKIP were even a party.

Sounds like you guys need a Macron kind of shake up. New party with a charismatic leader that gets his supporters from both sides. But you all seem pretty ok with Brexit... so, yeah.

Good luck.

 

[OverBlood 3]

He actively sabotaged remain. There is a 21 point list floating around in the previous election thread that detailed the specific things he did to undermine remain, it wasn't about sharing platforms, it was about getting brexit, which is what led to the leadership challenge.

Corbyn could've stopped Brexit. He didn't want to.

I'm not advocating challenging him again off the back of the success of the election, however let's not re-write history.

The guy was realistic about his feelings towards the EU and didn't lie about it, I'm not gonna say he's pro EU and he was 100% behind remain. I don't think he wants to be in the EU at all, but people wanted him to sing their praises and kiss their arses, for the sake of the party he ran a pro remain campaign that's the fact of it, if people didn't like it then honestly it's pretty hard to get that riled up about the EU it's far from perfect especially for my politics. I'm really not interested in a 21 point list either.

Wanting to reform how free movement works in the single market isn't the same as wanting to leave the single market.

This is 100% compatible with what he's trying to achieve now. You're reaching.

This is not necessarily incompatible with prefering single market membership now.

This is from last year
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057

 

[FlammableD]

Yep



Sure....

https://youtu.be/j7leQB_Oe_k?t=98

 

[D4Danger]

Sounds like you guys need a Macron kind of shake up. New party with a charismatic leader that gets his supporters from both sides. But you all seem pretty ok with Brexit... so, yeah.

Good luck.

oh so we just need space jesus. no problem.

 

[oti]

oh so we just need space jesus. no problem.

How about Schulz after he loses to Merkel come September? What if he took on the name of "Schultsorough the III"? He loves tea and the Great British Bake Off.

 

[TimmmV]

Sounds like you guys need a Macron kind of shake up. New party with a charismatic leader that gets his supporters from both sides. But you all seem pretty ok with Brexit... so, yeah.

Good luck.

Unfortunately FPTP means people in the UK don't really get that kind of option

 

[Moze]

Corbyn wanted to leave the EU before UKIP were even a party.

Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain last year.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain last year.

He wasn't exactly visible in her campaigning. He's not that different from May, they both backed the side they thought would win, but then kept their heads down and didn't go out to visibly campaign for remain.

 

[avaya]

The amazing thing is how immediately after being stabbed at constantly from every angle, by everyone with an influential voice, everyone turned around to Corbyn after the Brexit vote cried "this is your fault!", WHILE HOLDING ONTO the knivies they were still stabbing him with, astonished as to why he wasn't more influential.

Politics is shit. Necessary, but extremely shit.

The reality is Brexit happened because a significant part of the Labour base was peeled off to the batshit insane side because for them it was a protest vote against London.

The failure of the remain campaign was not getting enough Labour voters to do the right thing. There was no leadership from Labour. The fact they were taking a Desert Eagle shot to the face was irrelevant to these people.

The Tory base is unsalvageable in most part outside of those that care about their bottom line, they are vermin and they love their dogwhistle racism. You were left with a Conservative party leadership trying to woo the batshit mental part of their party whilst giving the traditional Labour left in the North pause for thought because it was an opportunity to stuff the Tory government.

This is why I was not at all surprised Brexit happened. The country is full of awful people and the traditional Labour base will always take an opportunity to get one over the Tories.

 

[tuxfool]

As far as I'm concerned I think those Labor "rebels" did the right thing and represented their constituencies. This Unity bullshit on this matter just doesn't fly given that Corbyn's stance on Brexit is just as mired in utter fantasy as that of conservatives. I'm not sure why anybody should follow his position, when he is flimflamming people with his own garbage. That's not a leadership position that anybody should be required to accept.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

The reality is Brexit happened because a significant part of the Labour base was peeled off to the batshit insane side because for them it was a protest vote against London.

The failure of the remain campaign was not getting enough Labour voters to do the right thing. There was no leadership from Labour. The fact they were taking a Desert Eagle shot to the face was irrelevant to these people.

The Tory base is unsalvageable in most part outside of those that care about their bottom line, they are vermin and they love their dogwhistle racism. You were left with a Conservative party leadership trying to woo the batshit mental part of their party whilst giving the traditional Labour left in the North pause for thought because it was an opportunity to stuff the Tory government.

This is why I was not at all surprised Brexit happened. The country is full of awful people and the traditional Labour base will always take an opportunity to get one over the Tories.

This is a very accurate assessment.

 

[KingSnake]

Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain last year.

Didn't Corbyn steered his party to vote for once and abstain the second time when the Parliament voted about a hard Brexit? In the last 6 months. Being either his true belief or opportunism that's twice backing the Tory government on the most serious decision in the long term. This means that Labour official position is that they support or don't really care about a hard Brexit.

 

[Moze]

He wasn't exactly visible in her campaigning. He's not that different from May, they both backed the side they thought would win, but then kept their heads down and didn't go out to visibly campaign for remain.

Are there any sources on how many actual appearances all the leaders/cabinet members had whilst campaigning for remain?

 

[PJV3]

He wasn't exactly visible in her campaigning. He's not that different from May, they both backed the side they thought would win, but then kept their heads down and didn't go out to visibly campaign for remain.

I think that's a little unfair, he got crowded out by the utter cock up going on in number 10, Cameron also made it almost impossible for Corbyn to be on stage with him, Cameron should have thought about these things before calling Corbyn a threat to national security etc.

Corbyn could have done more, but I doubt it would have changed much.

 

[Lagamorph]

Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain last year.

On paper maybe.

In reality he really didn't and made no effort to distance himself from his Farage levels of pro-leave. He didn't even come out in favour of remain at the start and was basically forced into it by the rest of the party. If Corbyn had got his way Labour would have been officially pro-Leave.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Are there any sources on how many actual appearances all the leaders/cabinet members had whilst campaigning for remain?

It wasn't just what he did, his office manipulated/frustrated many other Labour remain events, speeches and communications. This was why they fully turned on him when Remain lost.

 

[Uzzy]

I think that's a little unfair, he got crowded out by the utter cock up going on in number 10, Cameron also made it almost impossible for Corbyn to be on stage with him, Cameron should have thought about these things before calling Corbyn a threat to national security etc.

Corbyn could have done more, but I doubt it would have changed much.

Yeah, Corbyn should have joined the stage with Cameron and stood fully behind Osborne's punishment budget. That'd have won it for remain.

What drivel this is. 65% of Labour voters voted for remain, while 61% of Conservative voters voted for leave. Clearly this means that Corbyn's to blame for not getting the vote out.

 

[hohoXD123]

People who are blaming Corbyn for brexit seem to have missed the polls taken throughout the referendum campaign showing the remain share staying consistent throughout for Labour voters, unlike with Conservative voters where the remain share declined.

 

[Oriel]

UKIP members voted and campaigned for remain?

You wot mate?!

 

[D4Danger]

As far as I'm concerned I think those Labor "rebels" did the right thing and represented their constituencies. This Unity bullshit on this matter just doesn't fly given that Corbyn's stance on Brexit is just as mired in utter fantasy as that of conservatives.

the problem isn't who or how they voted it's that it should've never been put up to a vote in the first place. He knew it would fail, it was meaningless.

All Labour have to do is provide a united, competent front even if they don't believe it. Most in the ranks seem to get that now but there's still a few who just can't let it go (and I'm not blaming the people who voted here). If you really wanted to represent your constituents though and get a better brexit deal stop with this petty shit and work with what you've got. Corbyn isn't going to be the leader forever.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

People who are blaming Corbyn for brexit seem to have missed the polls taken throughout the referendum campaign showing the remain share staying consistent throughout for Labour voters, unlike with Conservative voters where the remain share declined.

He gets the blame because he's shown what happens when he's actually campaigning for something he believes in, ie himself. Personally I am unable to forgive him for brexit because I know what he did, what he really believed and I know he lies about it when it's brought up.

Also his offices interference in the rest of the campaign.

 

[avaya]

Corbyn never campaigned for Remain like he campaigned during the General. It's a crock of shit to say he was actively for it. It's also very fair to say Cameron absolutely fucked it with the way he wouldn't show a unity position.

I wonder what happens to the NHS outside of the single market and subsequent annihilation of tax revenue for the exchequer from a fundamentally crippled economy. The poor man of Europe is set for an encore. Maybe we will crawl back on our knees to beg for the EU to take us back in a decade or two.

Fucking disgrace, the entire thing.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Oh good. Everything is wrong again.

 

[Jackpot]

Corbyn voted and campaigned for remain last year.

You ever hear the term "damning with faint praise"?

His voting record speaks volumes of his views on Europe.

 

[hohoXD123]

As far as I'm concerned I think those Labor "rebels" did the right thing and represented their constituencies. This Unity bullshit on this matter just doesn't fly given that Corbyn's stance on Brexit is just as mired in utter fantasy as that of conservatives. I'm not sure why anybody should follow his position, when he is flimflamming people with his own garbage. That's not a leadership position that anybody should be required to accept.

If by doing the right thing you mean support an amendment which was 100% not going to pass and in the process turn the attention back to Labour infighting which had the potential of becoming forgotten about, and thus reducing the chances of a future Labour government, then yes they did the right thing.

 

[Uzzy]

To quote noted Corbyn fan Angela Eagle 'Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported, it is very difficult'

The media were far more interested in the drama in the Tory party, with Boris taking on Cameron. That was blockbuster stuff. They couldn't do that during the general election, of course.

 

[Rodelero]

On the one hand Corbyn did better in this election than I could ever have imagined. On the other hand he not only lost but he seems to have no idea how to run his party outside of an election campaign. Hard Brexit is a suicide pact - I'm happy that I didn't vote for it - but it seems we're headed that way regardless of the facts.

I started to feel a little positive following the election results - it indicated that there was some sign for hope and optimism over fear and stupidity - most of that positivity has been eroded already. This fucking country and our fucking politicians.

 

[tuxfool]

the problem isn't who or how they voted it's that it should've never been put up to a vote in the first place. He knew it would fail, it was meaningless.

All Labour have to do is provide a united, competent front even if they don't believe it. Most in the ranks seem to get that now but there's still a few who just can't let it go (and I'm not blaming the people who voted here). If you really wanted to represent your constituents though and get a better brexit deal stop with this petty shit and work with what you've got. Corbyn isn't going to be the leader forever.

Until the man states clearly a position that belongs in reality, I don't begrudge anybody from taking their own positions.

 

[avaya]

Umuna is a genuine bellend for putting that amendment through. It wasn't the time and it wasn't the place. He knew it would fail and has potentially harmed a stealth reversal on this entire thing. I am so angry about this.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Umuna is a genuine bellend for putting that amendment through. It wasn't the time and it wasn't the place. He knew it would fail and has potentially harmed a stealth reversal on this entire thing. I am so angry about this.

I agree with this, there was some room for softening brexit but he's spent a lot of the capital for fuck all really. My assumption would be that some of his business friends have been applying pressure or at least encouraging him.

 

[Oriel]

During the Scottish indy ref campaign the leaders of all the main parties stood shoulder to shoulder in support of Scotland remaining in the UK. There was none of the weak, uninterested shite that we saw with Corbyn in the Brexit referendum.

The truth is that had all the party leaders rallied around and supported EU membership like what was seen in 2014 it's entirely possible a remain vote could have been secured. Corbyn didn't campaign strongly in favour of EU membership because he's never really supported it to begin with.

A hard Brexit is what he's really after, something his army of young (and non-voting) supporters on Twitter and Facebook need to start understanding.