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[HazySaiyan]

That amendment by Umunna was an absolute farce. It achieved nothing beyond making Labour look like a bunch of in-fighting idiots again when now more than ever they need to look like a united force and an actual opposition.

I want to remain in the EU, or at the very least be in the Single Market as much as the next person, but this was neither the time or place to push for that.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Wrong thread?

They have a fitting name though

 

[Jackpot]

The real fight starts now later.

.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Your post is faceitous when it comes to Labour vs. LD leave voters. 3.3m Labour voters therefore voted leave 800k lib dems (who the fuck are these people?) based on 2015 data. What's more given the level of turnout it was probably more Labour voters than normal that voted leave.

You're missing the point, though. For Labour to get above 68% would require their support to more pro-Europe than the Liberal Democrats - I think that's unrealistic, right? How could you get any more pro-Europe than the Liberal Democrats? So suppose Labour did get 68%, instead of 65%. That's an extra 280,000 voters for Remain.

This doesn't change the result of the referendum.

 

[Hazzuh]

If nothing else, I'm just glad this thread retroactively agrees that it was a counterproductive waste of time for Corbyn to vote against the 2nd reading of the welfare bill in 2015, needlessly presenting the Labour party as divided and out of touch with the public mood on a major political issue!

 

[Deleted member 231381]

If nothing else, I'm just glad this thread retroactively agrees that it was a counterproductive waste of time for Corbyn to vote against the 2nd reading of the welfare bill in 2015, needlessly presenting the Labour party as divided and out of touch with the public mood on a major political issue!

But... that was in touch with the public mood! The median person in the UK is anti-globalization, anti-austerity. And Corbyn did achieve something from it - he got elected leader of the Labour Party (it was the first major turning point of his campaign, the other being when Burnham refused major union endorsements because he wanted to appear more centrist).

I understand the point you're trying to make - sometimes it's just good to have people vote on principle and not pragmatics - but that was probably a bad example you picked!

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Red White and Blue Brexit. It's a fucking nonsense position but allowed so much wiggle room to really get EEA at the end of the day. It was basically saying "jobs first, fuck your racism." Umuna absolute pissed that potential away with the pointless amendment today.

Sorry but I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

I also think to provide an effective opposition to the Tories they need to actually have a credible policy alternative.

 

[travisbickle]

If nothing else, I'm just glad this thread retroactively agrees that it was a counterproductive waste of time for Corbyn to vote against the 2nd reading of the welfare bill in 2015, needlessly presenting the Labour party as divided and out of touch with the public mood on a major political issue!

Was that out of touch?

It's been explained to me that the way people have voted the last couple of years was because of austerity.

 

[CCS]

Ultimately, someone eventually needs to do what Umuna did today, stand up and say "the current approach to Brexit is really fucking stupid".

Maybe he jumped the gun on it, but I'm not going to be mad at him for that.

 

[Beefy]

Ultimately, someone eventually needs to do what Umuna did today, stand up and say "the current approach to Brexit is really fucking stupid".

Maybe he jumped the gun on it, but I'm not going to be mad at him for that.

All depends why he did it though....


Also Liam Fox on Question Time tonight.

 

[Xando]

Ultimately, someone eventually needs to do what Umuna did today, stand up and say "the current approach to Brexit is really fucking stupid".

Maybe he jumped the gun on it, but I'm not going to be mad at him for that.

I agree with this but it probably won’t happen unless public mood swings massively. Which probably won’t happen for another 5-10 years. Which is obviously too late unless the UK wants to rejoin.

 

[Hazzuh]

But... that was in touch with the public mood! The median person in the UK is anti-globalization, anti-austerity. And Corbyn did achieve something from it - he got elected leader of the Labour Party (it was the first major turning point of his campaign, the other being when Burnham refused major union endorsements because he wanted to appear more centrist).

I understand the point you're trying to make - sometimes it's just good to have people vote on principle and not pragmatics - but that was probably a bad example you picked!

In 2015 people in the UK were anti-austerity but no necessarily anti-welfare cuts:

George Osborne's plan to make further cuts to Britain's welfare bill has the support of 75 per cent of voters, who still think ”too much money is being wasted on paying benefits to people who don't need them".

The chancellor's decision to put £12bn of further welfare cuts at the heart of the Conservative election campaign appears to be at least partly vindicated by a survey for the Financial Times by Populus.

Although voters seem to be tiring of austerity and want to see a future government raise spending in most areas, they draw a line when it comes to benefits and foreign aid.

Labour and Conservatives agree on preserving Britain's overseas aid at 0.7 per cent of national output but Ed Miliband has refused to say whether his party would substantially cut welfare. He may be out of step with public opinion. Only 25 per cent of people agreed that talk of waste in the benefits system had ”always been overstated and is just being used as an excuse to take money away from people who need it".

Also, it was obviously useful for Corbyn to vote against the Welfare bill even if it didn't help the party. But would people ITT really be happy if Umunna was making the party look divided in order to help himself in a leadership contest? I doubt it somehow.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Welp, as annoyed as I am with politics in general right now, it seems that things are just sliding back into their usual uninspiring bullshit.

Watching PMQs and the PMs answer to everything either not being an answer or "fuck you the tories are awesome" with the usual treating serious issues like a joke, I'm feeling pretty deflated.

I also really hate how obviously staged PMQs is. We already know Theresa May cant debate or speak off the cuff for shit so to see her standing up and having an immediate answer/insult for every single exchange just feels like the pantomime for this government has already been written and not much will change.

 

[whyamihere]

Wrong thread?

UGH.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Hmm, I think it's more complicated than that. Your own data points out that just over half of people thought the government was doing it the wrong way. I mean, if anything, this is another way Corbyn has picked the right position - Labour is committed to the welfare freeze, but not to the welfare cap.

I don't think Chuka is doing this as part of leadership ambitions. If he is, he's badly misread the mood of the party. He's doing it either out of principles or obstinancy - hopefully the former.

Personally, the main reason I'm annoyed at Chuka is for mistiming this. If we're going back on Brexit now, it's because of a Nixon-goes-to-China style thing - a committed Brexiteer gets in, takes a look at the situation, and goes back to the country with 'fuck this shit, it won't work'. But if the political elite are seen as so strongly Remain now, then it'll just be seen as doing what they secretly wanted all along - the idea that Brexit really is shit won't be received credibly. I want us to stay in the European Union; I think Chuka just made that less likely not more.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

I don't think Chuka is doing this as part of leadership ambitions. If he is, he's badly misread the mood of the party. He's doing it either out of principles or obstinancy - hopefully the former.

Doubt it

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057

 

[Hazzuh]

I agree that Umunna's amendment wasn't productive and if it was supposed to help him in a leadership bid then it was totally misguided.

The things that have really been annoying me about this whole discussion are that Corbynites seem to expect a level of loyalty from Labour MPs that Corbyn has never shown to any Labour leader and also this insinuation that the only reason anyone would disagree with Corbyn is for for selfish or underhanded reasons.

 

[Mr. Sam]

I agree that Corbyn was a serial rebel, often seemingly for the sake of it, but a party obviously can't operate if their members vote every which way when they feel like it. Common sense is required.

My girlfriend's upset because her MP was one of the ones sacked from the shadow cabinet. I sympathise but ultimately Corbyn's got to maintain discipline this early into the parliament, particularly when it was assumed the PLP would rock the boat less following the election result.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Hmm, I think it's more complicated than that. Your own data points out that just over half of people thought the government was doing it the wrong way. I mean, if anything, this is another way Corbyn has picked the right position - Labour is committed to the welfare freeze, but not to the welfare cap.

I don't think Chuka is doing this as part of leadership ambitions. If he is, he's badly misread the mood of the party. He's doing it either out of principles or obstinancy - hopefully the former.

Personally, the main reason I'm annoyed at Chuka is for mistiming this. If we're going back on Brexit now, it's because of a Nixon-goes-to-China style thing - a committed Brexiteer gets in, takes a look at the situation, and goes back to the country with 'fuck this shit, it won't work'. But if the political elite are seen as so strongly Remain now, then it'll just be seen as doing what they secretly wanted all along - the idea that Brexit really is shit won't be received credibly. I want us to stay in the European Union; I think Chuka just made that less likely not more.

Pretty sure people think the political elites are overwhelmingly Remain anyway, and they'd cancel Brexit immediately if their careers weren't at risk. Don't know what this ill timed playing of your hand would do to further reinforce that.

 

[Pyroclastic]

confused by the intention of him there for sure - he's argued against single market access in the past depending on certain conditions (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...e-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057) so I don't see how he felt he was the best person to bring this forth, in addition to the party unity and timing questions.

On the other hand, if there's anyone in remain labour seats who thinks or just wasn't aware that corbyn is no europhile I'm hoping they're disabused of that notion sooner rather than later in a way. would he be pragmatic to change from a lifetime of eurosceptiscism if in power? I guess he did that in the referendum, albeit extremely halfheartedly.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The things that have really been annoying me about this whole discussion are that Corbynites seem to expect a level of loyalty from Labour MPs that Corbyn has never shown to any Labour leader and also this insinuation that the only reason anyone would disagree with Corbyn is for for selfish or underhanded reasons.

Agreed.

I mean, my personal view is that Labour MPs ought to remain faithful to their CLPs - the leader is just the most prominent representative of the party, rather than an agenda-setter. They're leader because they command support, they don't command support because they're the leader. Unfortunately, we have the ridiculous situation where the leadership is more responsive to the membership than the PLP, so there's no clear lines of responsibility and the party can only remain united as long as the Conservatives are giving them a nice fuckup to unite against.

 

[pswii60]

They don't want to stay in the single market - they want "the exact same benefits the UK has as a member of the Single Market and the Customs Union". That's how they put it in Corbyn's own amendment.

So they want their cake and eat it? And they say May and Davies are living in another universe.

 

[TrueBlue]

The things that have really been annoying me about this whole discussion are that Corbynites seem to expect a level of loyalty from Labour MPs that Corbyn has never shown to any Labour leader and also this insinuation that the only reason anyone would disagree with Corbyn is for for selfish or underhanded reasons.

True. As frustrating as it is to have the focus back on a lack of party unity, the circumstances with which we find ourselves in make it extremely difficult.

Tempers can easily be stoked, which makes the atmosphere even more volatile.

 

[chromatic9]

I don't get Corbyn's Brexit demands. It's down the EU if they want to torpedo the EU, we can ask, they can laugh and say no and there's been many statements prior that it's no no and no. Doesn't matter who's government is asking or if it's Paddington bear.

 

[Spaghetti]

Time is a flat circle. We'll be having this debate until the end of time.

Unfortunately all this amendment has really done is bumped the Conservatives out of the unflattering spotlight for the first time in weeks.

GG Chuka. I would like to believe that wasn't his intention, but it's no secret he wants the top job.

 

[Dynasty]

Lol Question Time. The audience went straight in.


Wow that kid is an idiot.

 

[pswii60]

Why is Liam Fox shaking, nerves?

And Nick Ferrari desperately trying to be controversial to get extra listeners for his lame phone in show.

 

[Uzzy]

It's not the disloyalty that bugs me the most, it's the incompetence. Did this bring Umunna closer to the leadership? Did this force the Government or the Labour Party to adopt staying in the single market? Did it exploit divisions in the Government?

It just looks like Umunna's bitter that Labour have a hundred more MP's than he was hoping for.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

So they want their cake and eat it? And they say May and Davies are living in another universe.

Yeah, I don't really see much of a difference to be honest. I think the whole thing about Tories wanting a super hard crash-out Brexit and Labour wanting some kinda softly softly Brexit is mainly spin and partisan perception.

Anyway, Queens Speech has passed and this thread will soon be banished to the shadow cabinet realm. It's been a pleasure gents, see you in the next one.

 

[Uzzy]

Question Time is a train wreck tonight. I love it. Even getting calls to return to splendid isolation!

 

[avaya]

You're missing the point, though. For Labour to get above 68% would require their support to more pro-Europe than the Liberal Democrats - I think that's unrealistic, right? How could you get any more pro-Europe than the Liberal Democrats? So suppose Labour did get 68%, instead of 65%. That's an extra 280,000 voters for Remain.

This doesn't change the result of the referendum.

Sorry but I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

I also think to provide an effective opposition to the Tories they need to actually have a credible policy alternative.

You are both right. I hate this country.

 

[Acorn]

Question Time is a train wreck tonight. I love it.

Nothing raises my blood pressure quicker than QT. I don't know how I managed to watch that shit for years without having a heart attack.

I can hear it coming from the other room just now and my urge to kill is rising.

 

[Hazzuh]

Hate to link to the Sun but they have a scoop:

THERESA May has secretly agreed to end the public sector pay cap after 20 senior Tory MPs marched on No10, The Sun can reveal.

Amid a bitter Cabinet row, the PM and her Chancellor have publicly insisted the 1% cap on state wage rises until 2019 will stay.

But during a secret meeting with Mrs May’s chief of staff Gavin Barwell, the posse of senior Conservatives were told the duo WILL end it to give five million state workers’ pay a decent hike.

They were also told the announcement will come later in the year, so the PM is not seen to be giving in to “Comrade Corbyn”.

The delegation – which included at least three ex-ministers and a former party chairman – demanded the showdown on Wednesday afternoon.

Among the group were ex-Tory chair Grant Shapps, the PM’s policy board chief George Freeman and former justice minister Andrew Selous.

One MP at the meeting told The Sun: “Gavin told us that the PM completely accepts there needs to be some big changes of style and tone, but she can’t be seen to be pushed around by Comrade Corbyn.

“Instead, she and Hammond will invite the pay review bodies to come back with bigger settlements in due course.

“We all came away very happy with what we heard.”

Under the PM’s plan, ministers will quietly tell pay review bodies who scrutinise state wages every year that they are now free to recommend rises above 1%.

The Chancellor will then announce it during his Budget in the Autumn.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The Chancellor will then announce it during his Budget in the Autumn.

I thought he wasn't doing those any more?

 

[Newline]

Watching question time is getting me quite pessimistic. I can see the UK turning into a kind of tax haven state with rampant inequality after brexit.

 

[D4Danger]

Okay I'm out. some guy turned up with a book of Victorian fire safety tips

 

[Uzzy]

Okay I'm out. some guy turned up with a book of Victorian fire safety tips

Bet he never thought that hobby would prove useful.

 

[TimmmV]

Labour proposes a soft Brexit that isn’t available.
A lot of people seem to eat labour magical deal while attacking the tories for their nonsense.

I think people in this thread realise it's not possible but recognise it as a necessary lie to make Brexit hurt as little as possible.

It's not that they are swallowing the deal, it's just that they have more faith that outside the EU Labour will be better for the country than the Tories will, and if lying to the public about keeping Free Trade and getting rid of FOM is possible then the lie is worth it

 

[RetroDLC]

I thought he wasn't doing those any more?

No more Spring budgets, just one a year every Autumn (in pace with some world guidance thing) from now on.

 

[Dynasty]

Watching question time is getting me quite pessimistic. I can see the UK turning into a kind of tax haven state with rampant inequality after brexit.

They just started shitting on Katie Hopkins. Question Time always is a rollercoaster for me, at certain times I loose faith in the humanity and then 2 mins later faith has been restored.

 

[Wrestlemania]

The degree to which the audience get upset at the suggestion of even trying to negotiate some form of exit which involves staying in the customs union or single market is pretty incredible.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUCK THE CUSTOMS UNION AND SINGLE MARKET EVEN THOUGH WHEN I VOTED LEAVE I'D EITHER NEVER HEARD OF THEM OR HAD BEEN TOLD WE COULD STAY IN THEM AFTER WE LEFT BOOOOOOOOO

 

[sammex]

The worst bit was the lady who prefaced her "we were once the most powerful country in the world" spiel with "I didn't vote".

Should have turned off the microphone as soon as she said that.

 

[Faddy]

Question Time is fucking bonkers. The audience actually booed statistics about the make up of demographics in the mainstream media

 

[Wrestlemania]

They also didn't like statistics about our trade with the EU and countries we already have free trade with through the EU.

"The EU is our biggest trade partner"
"It shouldn't be!"

It shouldn't be!

 

[firehawk12]

So Labour is divided again... that didn't take long.

 

[Theonik]

I agree with this, there was some room for softening brexit but he's spent a lot of the capital for fuck all really. My assumption would be that some of his business friends have been applying pressure or at least encouraging him.

No he's just a bellend more interested in the leadership than helping the country
He's labour's Boris. People are not mad about supporting the single market they are not mad because of loyalty. It's about using boneheaded self interest with no purpose that ends up giving space to the tories to pull themselves out of their rut. Same way they saved themselves from the referendum.

So Labour is divided again... that didn't take long.

It's never stopped.

 

[Spaghetti]

The Boris comparisons with Chuka are apt. Sky-high ambitions, but pretty flimsy in reality.

 

[Theonik]

It's basically thus. The public is still for brexit and even remainers recognise it's what people voted for. If Brexit is to be reversed they need to convince people of it.

But remainers can't do that. If the messenger is perceived as a remainers they will be seen as sabotaging brexit which makes them less credible to the public.

They want to at least try to make this work. Once it proves otherwise they will turn around and is when you offer an alternative path which is why one does not reveal one's hand now.

The Tories need to make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing to convince them it's a bad idea. But they also need to think they are trying.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

It's basically thus. The public is still for brexit and even remainers recognise it's what people voted for. If Brexit is to be reversed they need to convince people of it.

But remainers can't do that. If the messenger is perceived as a remainers they will be seen as sabotaging brexit which makes them less credible to the public.

They want to at least try to make this work. Once it proves otherwise they will turn around and is when you offer an alternative path which is why one does not reveal one's hand now.

The Tories need to make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing to convince them it's a bad idea. But they also need to think they are trying.

I'd like to believe this, unfortunately I'm largely more convinced the Tories are quite happy to permanently cripple the country for their own gains.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

God the amount of moronic arseholes on question time always surprises and infuriates me.

Worst of all was the outrageous attacks on the canary. They do a fine job covering stories and actually representing the people. The funniest part was kerry Ann pointing out how undiverse mainstream media is only for nick farrari and a bunch of other middle aged white men start shouting her down.

And the msm wonder why less and less people give a fuck what they think.