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[Victory Red]

Yo Red you need some perspective. "Masterpiece"? "The masses"? It's not some seminal literary work. Game of Thrones is pulpy shlock all the way. I enjoy it, it's good, but c'mon.

I used these words as the stories importance relates to GRRM.

This is HIS masterpiece. His life's work. What his entire time on this planet will be known for.



No, I don't think its a masterpiece. I haven't read enough novels to make that determination.

 

[Basileus777]

I used these words as the story relates to GRRM.

This is HIS masterpiece. His life's work. What his entire time on this planet will be known for.



No, I don't think its a masterpiece. I haven't read enough novels to make that determination.

GRRM chose to sell the rights to the story away and then failed to write quickly enough to stay ahead. What's there to get angry for on his behalf? He'll still get to write his books, no one is taking that away,

 

[Rixxan]

Storm of Swords is widely considered one of the best fantasy novels ever written.

Also, GRRMs worldbuilding and penchant for history is as good as anyone who's ever worked in this genre.

Its by no means an insult to classify the series as a masterpiece, albeit its unfinished and theres some question as to whether or not he can deliver on these last two

 

[elrechazado]

Tell me more.

Davos letter scene. There's one for you.

 

[Victory Red]

GRRM chose to sell the rights to the story away and then failed to write quickly enough to stay ahead. What's there to get angry for on his behalf? He'll still get to write his books, no one is taking that away,

You dont' think its going to effect him when the TV show has concluded and we still don't have the last book?

When he's doing TV Interviews, the show is winning emmy's, and people are stopping him and he's being asked about stuff that happened in Season 07 that he hadn't even written.

 

[Zabka]

Davos letter scene. There's one for you.

Do we know for a fact that Stannis didn't turn to Mel for input in the books?

 

[Basileus777]

You dont' think its going to effect him when the TV show has concluded and we still don't have the last book?

When he's doing TV Interviews, the show is winning emmy's, and people are stopping him and he's being asked about stuff that happened in Season 07 that he hadn't even written.

I'm sure being a celebrity is an inconvenience. But it's also made him a lot of money, so I'm not sure why anyone should care about this.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'll worry about that shit if or when the show passes the books. Right now I don't get concerned over it.

Ultimately the books are the books, and the show is the show. I'd be upset if major shit is revealed in the show before the books - like Jon's mom. But most of the shit I'm interested in probably won't be discussed in the show. We aren't going to learn what happened at Summerhal in the show, or what caused the Doom of Valyria. And in terms of stuff that will eventually be on the show, like Jon's mom or Aegon's true identity, I'm sure the books will handle them first; TWOW will likely address both.

ASOIAF is Martin's baby, he has spent a third of his life creating the world, and it's unlikely he'll do anything else as monumental or noteworthy as this; whatever you call ASOIAF it's the most influential fantasy series since LOTR or Elric of Melniboné. If HBO finished before him it would be a disaster IMO, and 100% his fault. At the end of the day Martin understands this more than we ever could, and I like to believe he'll be spending the next 3-4 years with high motivation and determination. Maybe he's one of those people like Obama who only seems to be 100% motivated when everything is on the line, and will come through in the clutch.

(his schedule is nearly empty in 2015/2016, and is completely empty in 2017).

 

[Iksenpets]

I think it's interesting that some troll about the season finale exposes a latent fear here (and elsewhere, I'm guessing) that D&D just can't fucking wait to go off the rails with the characters.

I mean, they've made some pretty significant changes in paths but it does seem like all the characters will end up where they're supposed to be. Yet a fake show spoiler has a bunch of people immediately speculating that it was the goal all along. Heh.

If anything, for all the handwringing, the final product has always ended up more loyal to the source than all the speculation ever predicts. The only change that they've ever made just because they felt like changing something was the Talisa stuff. Every other change, whether you agree with it or not, has pretty clear reasoning behind it, either due to production concerns or pacing issues or whatever. There have been plenty of poor adaptation choices, but there haven't really been any arbitrary adaptation choices. They clearly value staying true to the books. Sure sometimes other values trump that, but loyalty to the book is definitely more of a priority than people act like it is.

 

[Massa]

Davos letter scene. There's one for you.

Right. That's a scene that's about Stannis coming to the realization that his duty and honor requires him to be defending the realm, not fighting to be king.

Show Stannis only wants to be king (see the Inside the Episode from episode 3 of this season where David spells this out) and does whatever Mel tells him to do. In fact, he's coming to the Wall not to defend the realms of Men, like book Stannis, but because Mel agreed to it.

It's a deviation that changes the core of that character.

 

[Moff]

I used these words as the stories importance relates to GRRM.

This is HIS masterpiece. His life's work. What his entire time on this planet will be known for.

you make this sound as if the evil tv people are ripping his heart out against his will.
it couldnt be farther from the truth.
they needed his approval, there is only him to blame.
now I dont necessarily argue that the tv show is not changing the books in a certain way, they surely are, and some might think they are "ruined", sure.

BUT you cant possibly blame the tv people for that, its GRRMs fault and no one elses. if its ever going to effect him he will damn sure know who is to blame for that.

 

[Famassu]

Yo Red you need some perspective. "Masterpiece"? "The masses"? It's not some seminal literary work. Game of Thrones is pulpy shlock all the way. I enjoy it, it's good, but c'mon.

The way GRRM lets you into people's heads is more than just "pulpy schlock", it's way, waaaaay above the average fantasy that IS pulpy schlock. Sure, it's not perfect (there are some pink masts and stuff that are kinda bad), but then again, neither is a majority of the so called classic literature.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

How incompetent do you think HBO lawyers are? GRRM doesn't have a say because he sold his rights to it away. Editors don't have the same authority.

I think you misunderstood the point I was making, or maybe I wasn't clear enough.

My point was that it was GRRM's final say as to whether the rights get sold or not, and him disregarding his editors was a supporting point of how much control he has over what goes into the books and what's done with that material (adaptation or not).

 

[pr0cs]

I guess I'm like a few other people in this thread. I consider the two entities (TV/BOOK) as separate.
I consider the TV series as 'fan service' for the books.
There are a number of changes in the show that I don't like but also a few changes that I think are fine. It won't bother me in the least if the show 'spoils' the end of the books simply because of all the 'filler' that the showrunners trim out that I know I'll enjoy reading.
And I'll echo some of the other statements. GRRM has really no one else to blame if the show finishes first, kills off some characters that are still alive or creates a butterfly effect that can seriously change the outcome. He signed the rights over and thus far hasn't shown that he's working the remaining books feverishly. The books are his baby and if he was really worried about finishing the story first he should be talking less about the tv changes, getting pissed about people asking about the next books and more time booting DOS and getting work done.

 

[Brakke]

But a part of me also doesn't give a shit. The show is the show. The books the books. Knowing the major beats before the books come out won't hinder my enjoyment of them.

My feelings.

I think you are being really unfair. It's of the same level as Dark Tower series or Discworld in terms of writing quality.
It's major flaw is the bloat though and the excessive descriptions of food

I'm on Wizard and Glass right now. Laughing at the implication The Dark Tower isn't total shlock. We're like seven visions and four prophecies deep at this point in the story.

The way GRRM lets you into people's heads is more than just "pulpy schlock", it's way, waaaaay above the average fantasy that IS pulpy schlock. Sure, it's not perfect (there are some pink masts and stuff that are kinda bad), but then again, neither is a majority of the so called classic literature.

Soap operas let me into people's heads too. Comparing it to other fantasy books is a big fish / small pond situation.

The real thing that makes it schlocky is everything is text, there's no subtext. Nothing is metaphor except it's a metaphor for the plot. The series is an end, not a means. It's overly reliant on comic book-level death fake-outs, shock value, and prophecy, that cheapest of devices.

 

[zsswimmer]

I guess I'm like a few other people in this thread. I consider the two entities (TV/BOOK) as separate.
I consider the TV series as 'fan service' for the books.
There are a number of changes in the show that I don't like but also a few changes that I think are fine. It won't bother me in the least if the show 'spoils' the end of the books simply because of all the 'filler' that the showrunners trim out that I know I'll enjoy reading.
And I'll echo some of the other statements. GRRM has really no one else to blame if the show finishes first, kills off some characters that are still alive or creates a butterfly effect that can seriously change the outcome. He signed the rights over and thus far hasn't shown that he's working the remaining books feverishly. The books are his baby and if he was really worried about finishing the story first he should be talking less about the tv changes, getting pissed about people asking about the next books and more time booting DOS and getting work done.

Same here, I think it's a better way of looking at it. I like the show and all, and don't really care about changes made from the books, because I'm in it for the books. I just want TWOW asap, hate waiting for such a great story. The next wait after that will be awful, considering GRRM's health concerns being obese. Although my grandma is incredibly fat and diabetic and somehow she has outlived my grandpa who was in great shape for his age and died in his 60s. Maybe GRRM will be one of those lucky people.

 

[Valhelm]

A Song of Ice and Fire certainly isn't high literature, but I think Martin's prose is above average, and while it is certainly Comic Bookish at times, he's written some incredible characters, and has some of the deepest plot intrigue I've ever read. It's staggering how much planning must have gone into designing the various plots and mysteries alone.

 

[Brakke]

A Song of Ice and Fire certainly isn't high literature, but I think Martin's prose is above average, and while it is certainly Comic Bookish at times, he's written some incredible characters, and has some of the deepest plot intrigue I've ever read. It's staggering how much planning must have gone into designing the various plots and mysteries alone.

Totally! Shit is complex as all get out. I enjoy the hell out of it. I go deep as anyone digging around and having theories and being hype about it. It's some world-class sound and fury, it just doesn't signify anything.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Same here, I think it's a better way of looking at it. I like the show and all, and don't really care about changes made from the books, because I'm in it for the books. I just want TWOW asap, hate waiting for such a great story. The next wait after that will be awful, considering GRRM's health concerns being obese. Although my grandma is incredibly fat and diabetic and somehow she has outlived my grandpa who was in great shape for his age and died in his 60s. Maybe GRRM will be one of those lucky people.

A segue here but are there any famous authors who are like built and stuff? Like almost P90X levels of fitness? Switch between workout and writing?

 

[Brakke]

Steinbeck? Hemingway in a bear kind of way.

I bet Plato could clock a fool.

 

[SamVimes]

A segue here but are there any famous authors who are like built and stuff? Like almost P90X levels of fitness? Switch between workout and writing?

Gabriele D'Annunzio.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I hate the term "high literature." Gene Wolfe is a better writer than most high/traditional literature authors yet will never get recognized because he has written science fiction/fantasy.

 

[Sickboy007]

A segue here but are there any famous authors who are like built and stuff? Like almost P90X levels of fitness? Switch between workout and writing?

Mishima.

 

[Victory Red]

He has a boob in his underwear.

 

[Brakke]

Mishima.

Holy Shit Who the Fuck is This Guy

On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of the Tatenokai, under pretext, visited the commandant of the Ichigaya Camp, the Tokyo headquarters of the Eastern Command of Japan's Self-Defense Forces.[14] Inside, they barricaded the office and tied the commandant to his chair. With a prepared manifesto and a banner listing their demands, Mishima stepped onto the balcony to address the soldiers gathered below. His speech was intended to inspire a coup d'état to restore the power of the emperor. He succeeded only in irritating the soldiers, and was mocked and jeered. He finished his planned speech after a few minutes, returned to the commandant's office and committed seppuku. The assisting kaishakunin duty at the end of this ritual (to decapitate Mishima) had been assigned to Tatenokai member Masakatsu Morita, who was unable to properly perform the task. After several failed attempts at severing Mishima's head, he allowed another Tatenokai member, Hiroyasu Koga, to behead Mishima. Morita then knelt and stabbed himself in the abdomen and Koga again performed the kaishakunin duty.

Anyway this is the show thread so let's discuss sexy filmmakers.

The GOAT, Cary Fukunaga

 

[PantherLotus]

I do feel for those who have supported the series for 20 years are going to get the ending ruined by the TV series. There might be differences, but I have little doubt things will end pretty much the same. Even if they are not, the thrill of reading the new books will be gone. Even if the show did everything different, it would still ruin things. You would go into the books with an expectation of what will happen. The ability to go in blind would be totally gone, unless you somehow managed to avoid spoilers for what will likely be ten years.

I think this is a fair position, even if I disagree. I mean, I'm excited to know answers and would've wanted to find out from the books first. But -- and this is exactly like Harry Potter in this way -- the show has already changed what the books mean, how characters are perceived, what the mind's eye puts in your head when you're with a certain character. So to that end it was too late the moment the show started before the series ended.

I also hold that it's impossible to believe the show and the books are two separate entities. One (PD, for instance) can say it all he wants but they're impossible to separate at this point. So yeah, it's fair to worry how the show will handle certain reveals if GRRM isn't holding their hands the entire way.

I'm a fan of Stannis. But the hand wringing about how the show has handled his character has always been laughable to me. One or two scenes of him lusting for Melisandre was enough for most people to say they ruined his character, and they've been fretting ever since.

I think Stannis is getting more or less the exact same stature that he's getting in the books. Maybe a hair or two more of nuance with his reasoning and emotional resonance? I guess. But the same can be said for every single character in the show, and frankly we all know and have discussed ad naseum that without voiceovers it's just not possible to recreate some of these POVs.

If anything, for all the handwringing, the final product has always ended up more loyal to the source than all the speculation ever predicts. The only change that they've ever made just because they felt like changing something was the Talisa stuff. Every other change, whether you agree with it or not, has pretty clear reasoning behind it, either due to production concerns or pacing issues or whatever. There have been plenty of poor adaptation choices, but there haven't really been any arbitrary adaptation choices. They clearly value staying true to the books. Sure sometimes other values trump that, but loyalty to the book is definitely more of a priority than people act like it is.

Completely agreed. Remarkably faithful.

 

[Iksenpets]

A segue here but are there any famous authors who are like built and stuff? Like almost P90X levels of fitness? Switch between workout and writing?

Haruki Murakami isn't buff, but he runs marathons. That has to count for something.

 

[Rhaknar]

finally watched ep9, about time we get a "fuck yeah" moment in this sea of depression. Was it faithful to the books?

 

[Victory Red]

finally watched ep9, about time we get a "fuck yeah" moment in this sea of depression. Was it faithful to the books?

Pretty Much

There were different "waves" of attacks by mance's troops and the wildlings south of the wall. We dont know who killed Ygritte, Jon found her laying on the ground the next morning adn they had that little exchange.

*Edit. Well I guess not that much. Read below.

 

[Valhelm]

Just as a heads-up, there are HUGE spoilers in this thread, so you should really be careful.

 

[RedShift]

finally watched ep9, about time we get a "fuck yeah" moment in this sea of depression. Was it faithful to the books?

Nope.

In the books the events of this episode take place throughout the whole second half of the book rather than all at once. I think IIRC Ygritte dies long long before the Red Wedding in the books. There are like, 3 separate attacks on the Wall instead of one long one.

Pyp, Grenn and Alliser are all still alive and kicking in the books.

Also in the books Alliser isn't around until just after the battle, the Watch is lead by this awesome blacksmith (who used to work for the Baratheons and forged Robert's warhammer), who dies exactly how Grenn died in the show.

Also Sam and Gilly don't arrive back at the wall until after the battle, and Jon arrives only a day before it all starts.

Oh and Jon doesn't decided to go find and kill Mance, he's forced to by Alliser and Slynt to prove his loyalty.

 

[SamVimes]

Nope.

In the books the events of this episode take place throughout the whole second half of the book rather than all at once. I think IIRC Ygritte dies long long before the Red Wedding in the books. There are like, 3 separate attacks on the Wall instead of one long one.

Pyp, Grenn and Alliser are all still alive and kicking in the books.

Also in the books Alliser isn't around until just after the battle, the Watch is lead by this awesome blacksmith (who used to work for the Baratheons and forged Robert's warhammer), who dies exactly how Grenn died in the show.

Also Sam and Gilly don't arrive back at the wall until after the battle, and Jon arrives only a day before it all starts.

Oh and Jon doesn't decided to go find and kill Mance, he's forced to by Alliser and Slynt to prove his loyalty.

This plus Jon doesn't ever take command of the wall, the command is thrust upon him:

Noye pointed north. “Loose enough arrows, might be you’ll find a few. At least you’ll make them fretful.” He looked around the ring of firelit faces. “I need two bows and two spears to help me hold the tunnel if they break the gate.” More than ten stepped forward, and the smith picked his four. “Jon, you have the Wall till I return.”

For a moment Jon thought he had misheard. It had sounded as if Noye were leaving him in command.

“My lord?”

“Lord? I’m a blacksmith. I said, the Wall is yours.”

There are older men, Jon wanted to say, better men. I am still as green as summer grass. I’m wounded, and I stand accused of desertion. His mouth had gone bone dry. “Aye,” he managed.

I feel this is a pretty important distinction, Jon would never just assume command at that point in the story.

 

[Dysun]

Nope.

In the books the events of this episode take place throughout the whole second half of the book rather than all at once. I think IIRC Ygritte dies long long before the Red Wedding in the books. There are like, 3 separate attacks on the Wall instead of one long one.

Pyp, Grenn and Alliser are all still alive and kicking in the books.

Also in the books Alliser isn't around until just after the battle, the Watch is lead by this awesome blacksmith (who used to work for the Baratheons and forged Robert's warhammer), who dies exactly how Grenn died in the show.

Also Sam and Gilly don't arrive back at the wall until after the battle, and Jon arrives only a day before it all starts.

Oh and Jon doesn't decided to go find and kill Mance, he's forced to by Alliser and Slynt to prove his loyalty.

Minor correction, Ygritte dies after the Red Wedding. I remember being like God Dammit GRRM not again!

 

[Steelyuhas]

Also, Alliser survived

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Also, Alliser survived

Was he confirmed dead in the show, though?

(Or did I misread, and you're confirming that he DID survive in the show?)

 

[CitizenVectron]

He seemed to have survived in the show as well, he was dragging into the castle.

If I had to make a guess, they will skip the election and Thorne will for some reason endorse Jon Snow as Lord Commander on his death bed or something.

 

[kirblar]

#1 rule of TV- if they're not killed onscreen, they ain't dead.

 

[Victory Red]

Minor correction, Ygritte dies after the Red Wedding. I remember being like God Dammit GRRM not again!

Yeah, After red wedding is when I started reading the books lol.

So I started from the beginning of Book 3 and Ygritte was the first new death to me.

 

[Iksenpets]

#1 rule of TV- if they're not killed onscreen, they ain't dead.

Yeah Alisser only took a cut to the leg. He had to be dragged away because he couldn't walk, but he wasn't dying. They could still kill him by bleeding or infection, but he at least survived the night.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

#1 rule of TV- if they're not killed on-screen, they ain't dead.

Fingers crossed for Syrio. The show version was way too cool of a character but then we had Oberyn

 

[kirblar]

I got inadvertently spoiled on a bunch of things before starting up the books, so TWOW is going to probably be a traumatic experience.

It's also funny that people are going to be panicking about Book 4/5 spoilers... when there aren't a lot of big ones due to the climaxes being pushed into Book 6.

 

[jakefromstatefarm]

finally watched ep9, about time we get a "fuck yeah" moment in this sea of depression. Was it faithful to the books?

Probably to a fault, Ygritte's death/conversation with Jon felt really shoehorned.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Not sure if posted but, Martin starting to bitch about changes:

http://www.avclub.com/article/george...ault:2efault

Why did you post this in such a disingenuous way? The recent interviews are about how GRRM wished the series/episodes were longer, not about the "butterfly effect" changes. That quote about the "butterfly effect" is from an interview from three years ago. The article author just threw it in there because he's a dumbass.

So, to summarize, GRRM isn't "starting to bitch about changes" at all, and this article is just a stupid joke.

His fixation on the Marillion thing is so weird. Not having him changed nothing. They reframed it as a suicide to exactly the same effect. He brings up Mago a lot, too, as though it's going to make things radically different when they just introduce some new Dothraki to take whatever his future role is instead.

Fixation? He brought it up once three years ago, and maybe once again last year, and mentioned Mago once. The only people fixating here are clickbait article writers and those who eat them up...

The way GRRM lets you into people's heads is more than just "pulpy schlock", it's way, waaaaay above the average fantasy that IS pulpy schlock. Sure, it's not perfect (there are some pink masts and stuff that are kinda bad), but then again, neither is a majority of the so called classic literature.

Agreed.

The real thing that makes it schlocky is everything is text, there's no subtext.

That isn't true at all.

 

[RedShift]

I got inadvertently spoiled on a bunch of things before starting up the books, so TWOW is going to probably be a traumatic experience.

It's also funny that people are going to be panicking about Book 4/5 spoilers... when there aren't a lot of big ones due to the climaxes being pushed into Book 6.

There are quite a lot of spoilers.

Aegon is the biggest thing really. He's totally a gamechanger.

Oh, and the pretty big one, Jon's "death".

Tyrion heading to Meereen.

Then there's Dorne being all in on #TeamTarg.

And just... everything about Euron.

Cersei ending up in her fucked up situation is pretty big.

Drogon fucking shit up, Dany riding him, V and R BBQing Quentyn etc. are pretty big.

Actually Dany getting remarried is a pretty big spoiler.

Gregor coming back as a zombie.

etc.

People always say nothing happens in AFFC/ADWD but really a lot of stuff does. Each book introduces a serious new player for the Iron Throne. if they compress it all into one season it'll be comparable to S4 I'd say.

(Reeeeally doubled checking that I'm posting this in the right thread)

 

[PhoenixDark]

I wonder if they'll end Tyrion's arc by basically telegraphing that he's going to meet Dany (trollolol, I know).

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I wonder if they'll end Tyrion's arc by basically telegraphing that he's going to meet Dany (trollolol, I know).

I hope they leave it a mystery. I would like to read non readers' speculation on where they think he'll end up.

 

[Paganmoon]

We're going to need a new ot before Sunday, has a season of a show ever gotten two ot's?

 

[Speevy]

I have reached #4 in the standings for this thread. My well of useless posts has no bottom.

 

[Brakke]

Saw in the Unsullied thread. Pics of the actors from the past.

Charles Dance is way better looking now damn.

http://mashable.com/2014/06/12/game-of-thrones-tbt/

 

[-griffy-]

Dianna Rigg and Natalie Dormer could easily be related: