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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO

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A

Ambient80

Member
rqCLi5o.jpg


I know, I know... a dumb picture. It did get a good laugh out of me, though. Crush my skull if repost.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Paganmoon said:
We're going to need a new ot before Sunday, has a season of a show ever gotten two ot's?
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Part 2 of season 5 of Breaking Bad spilled into a second one I believe. We have about 35k posts between the two threads this year though. :eek:

I'll probably post the new OT late tonight, as I don't know when I'll have time tomorrow.

----------
@Alliser: He hurt is leg, but I saw no evidence that he was gravely wounded in last week's episode.
 
S

Showaddy

Member
Victory Red said:
George RR Martin's life long masterpiece is going to be ruined because of a TV show.

Now who's fault is that. Gurm's for only writing at home on a word processor? For not writing faster? Gurm's people's fault for not waiting before signing an HBO deal because they foresaw this happening?
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GRRM seems pretty happy with all the money and extra exposure the show has brought him and his works. If he wants to write at a snails pace and have his life's work finished by HBO that down to him, don't cry for him when it's all in his hands.
 
Macmanus

Macmanus

Member
Massa said:
Show Stannis only wants to be king (see the Inside the Episode from episode 3 of this season where David spells this out) and does whatever Mel tells him to do. In fact, he's coming to the Wall not to defend the realms of Men, like book Stannis, but because Mel agreed to it.

It's a deviation that changes the core of that character.
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Oh shit, I didn't even notice that in the show. I just assumed he came to the same realization.

That is kind of a big deal. Book Stannis doesn't want to be king for the sake of being king. His strict moral compass tells him he has to be king, Mel whispering in his ear reinforces the notion. Kind of a bummer the show flattened his character like that.

Victory Red said:
Now who's fault is that. Gurm's for only writing at home on a word processor? For not writing faster? Gurm's people's fault for not waiting before signing an HBO deal because they foresaw this happening?
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I see it the opposite; I'm pretty jazzed that this nerdy thing I liked a decade ago hit critical mass and now has the possibility of having two distinct endings on different mediums that will be debated and discussed for time immemorial. Or maybe it wont? You don't really hear people talking about The Scouring of the Shire very often.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
To be fair, the reluctant aspect of Stannis's character is present in the show, just very small. When he's talking to Davos in the dungeons of Dragonstone, he says "I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king", implying he has no actual desire to be king, just that he HAS to be king.

It's his duty.

Obligatory:
1yUyHqn.jpg
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E

elrechazado

Banned
Massa said:
Right. That's a scene that's about Stannis coming to the realization that his duty and honor requires him to be defending the realm, not fighting to be king.

Show Stannis only wants to be king (see the Inside the Episode from episode 3 of this season where David spells this out) and does whatever Mel tells him to do. In fact, he's coming to the Wall not to defend the realms of Men, like book Stannis, but because Mel agreed to it.

It's a deviation that changes the core of that character.
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Yeah - the "k Davos guess I won't kill you but I still want to" part of that scene was so bad.
 
L

Lautaro

Member
bodyofanamerican said:
To be fair, the reluctant aspect of Stannis's character is present in the show, just very small. When he's talking to Davos in the dungeons of Dragonstone, he says "I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king", implying he has no actual desire to be king, just that he HAS to be king.

It's his duty.
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But when he talks with Davos about the siege where they met and how Robert gave his righful reward to Renly and left him to rot in Dragonstone you could see that Stannis do desires the throne, he sees it as his moment of retribution.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
Yep, no argument there. Though I always felt like there was a pretty strong undercurrent of overlooked middle-child bitterness to him in the books though, no? Maybe that's what's coming out in that scene.

@the previous post, I still can't watch that scene with him, Mel and Davos at the end of S3. It gets me so mad. UGH.
 
R

Real Hero

Member
'If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. '

He can't really say this now :(
 
L

Lautaro

Member
Real Hero said:
'If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. '

He can't really say this now :(
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"If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth so he can talk to the bankers scum of Braavos..."

Yep, Stannis was never my favorite but the show made him little favors (only the writing though, the actor is quite good).
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
Real Hero said:
'If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. '

He can't really say this now :(
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Well, horrible as that S3E10 scene is, it IS Davos's idea for him to go to the wall. We may yet get our speech about carts and horses.

Lautaro said:
"If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth so he can talk to the bankers scum of Braavos..."

Yep, Stannis was never my favorite but the show made him little favors (only the writing though, the actor is quite good).
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That's the killer. Dillane very obviously gets who Stannis is.

Great post.
VV
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Lautaro said:
But when he talks with Davos about the siege where they met and how Robert gave his righful reward to Renly and left him to rot in Dragonstone you could see that Stannis do desires the throne, he sees it as his moment of retribution.
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Stannis' desires for the throne are definitely tangled up in a lot of family issues with his brothers. People focus on Stannis' moral code a lot, but his relationship with his brothers is probably just as central to the character, just less overt. Getting the throne makes him finally Robert's equal, after a lifetime of Robert looking down on him. And his younger brother not respecting him either was just salt in the wound. And he latches onto other people as sort of replacement brothers, first with Davos, and then with Jon once he thinks Davos is dead. You can also see his extreme jealousy towards Ned Stark, who in his mind I think basically usurped his place as Robert's brother.

The show never really gets that though. His relationship with Davos feels much less close, his relationship with Robert isn't explored in any particular depth, and he's much less resistant of Melisandre and more willing to bend his morals for religion. He outright denies Melisandre's request to sacrifice Edric in the book, even after two of the three usurpers are dead, whereas in the show he's like SACRIFICE TIME the moment Robb dies.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Iksenpets said:
Stannis' desires for the throne are definitely tangled up in a lot of family issues with his brothers. People focus on Stannis' moral code a lot, but his relationship with his brothers is probably just as central to the character, just less overt. Getting the throne makes him finally Robert's equal, after a lifetime of Robert looking down on him. And his younger brother not respecting him either was just salt in the wound. And he latches onto other people as sort of replacement brothers, first with Davos, and then with Jon once he thinks Davos is dead. You can also see his extreme jealousy towards Ned Stark, who in his mind I think basically usurped his place as Robert's brother.

The show never really gets that though. His relationship with Davos feels much less close, his relationship with Robert isn't explored in any particular depth, and he's much less resistant of Melisandre and more willing to bend his morals for religion. He outright denies Melisandre's request to sacrifice Edric in the book, even after two of the three usurpers are dead, whereas in the show he's like SACRIFICE TIME the moment Robb dies.
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also love when Davos calls out his hypocrisy in supporting Robert over the true targaeyen king.

Davos is such a boss.
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
elrechazado said:
also love when Davos calls out his hypocrisy in supporting Robert over the true targaeyen king.

Davos is such a boss.
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I actually think that Stannis' logic in his response to Davos, that family obligation trumps law, ties into all of that, too. Family is really important to Stannis, and that it wasn't important to his brothers I think really messed with him. When he's talking about his duty as king at some point later on, I remember that first on his list, before his duty to the protect the kingdom, he mentions his duty to his daughter to secure her rights as his heir. Stannis talks big game about law and all that, but there's always a really strong current of family running underneath everything.
 
E

El Daniel

Member
I shall bring justice to Westeros. A thing Ser Axell understands as little as he does war. Claw Isle would gain me naught... and it was evil, just as you said. Celtigar must pay the traitor's price himself, in his own person. And when I come into my kingdom, he shall. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that
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It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done after the Trident.
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Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all i could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.
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I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.
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Stannis has some amazing quotes. And none are in the show. (yet???)
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Iksenpets said:
I actually think that Stannis' logic in his response to Davos, that family obligation trumps law, ties into all of that, too. Family is really important to Stannis, and that it wasn't important to his brothers I think really messed with him. When he's talking about his duty as king at some point later on, I remember that first on his list, before his duty to the protect the kingdom, he mentions his duty to his daughter to secure her rights as his heir. Stannis talks big game about law and all that, but there's always a really strong current of family running underneath everything.
Click to expand...
agreed - and I'd add that you do get to see the inner conflict between his sense of duty to kingdom and to family. Real moral conflict in his mind.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
They really better start mining this conflict in season 5. I mean I can't believe with everything we've talked about in the last few posts, they haven't used ANY of it to create this compelling character we all see in the books.
 
S

Showaddy

Member
bodyofanamerican said:
They really better start mining this conflict in season 5. I mean I can't believe with everything we've talked about in the last few posts, they haven't used ANY of it to create this compelling character we all see in the books.
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Well Mel taking Shireen with her is a pretty major change from the books, chances are they'll use that to spark any character change in Stannis.
 
F

FleckSplat

Member
Showaddy said:
GRRM seems pretty happy with all the money and extra exposure the show has brought him and his works. If he wants to write at a snails pace and have his life's work finished by HBO that down to him, don't cry for him when it's all in his hands.
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Just because HBO does it a certain way doesn't mean he can't write it the same way he's always wanted to.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Are there any decent podcasts for Ice and Fire? Preferably spoiler okay ones?

I used to listen to Podcast of Ice and Fire (I think it was called) and it was the only real podcast about the books right before the show started, but since the show has started and suddenly things blew up and became popular, I expect there are at least a few great ones now.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
I just can't help but think Stannis will break eventually. I don't know what it will be - perhaps the north turning on him to support Rickon, or maybe his southern men abandoning him, or the death of his daughter.
 
M

Massa

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I just can't help but think Stannis will break eventually. I don't know what it will be - perhaps the north turning on him to support Rickon, or maybe his southern men abandoning him, or the death of his daughter.
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I'm not sure the North will turn on him. If they do, "The North Remembers" is a bunch of bullshit.
 
S

Showaddy

Member
FleckSplat said:
Just because HBO does it a certain way doesn't mean he can't write it the same way he's always wanted to.
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If he cared about HBO finishing his story he'd focus on writing, speed up and stop spending 5 years on 1 book. I can't understand why people are getting upset for GRRM when he's content to carry on writing at his own meandering pace and watch the show overtake him.
 
R

Razzer

Member
Massa said:
I'm not sure the North will turn on him. If they do, "The North Remembers" is a bunch of bullshit.
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Well the idea is that they would declare Rickon or someone King in the North.

The north would still remember what the Freys and Boltons did, but that doesn't make them loyal to Stannis.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I just can't help but think Stannis will break eventually. I don't know what it will be - perhaps the north turning on him to support Rickon, or maybe his southern men abandoning him, or the death of his daughter.
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Just to be clear, by break do you mean snap? Like "ok, fuck Westeros, I'm taking my revenge on this entire fucking country"?
 
T

Turin

Banned
bodyofanamerican said:
Just to be clear, by break do you mean snap? Like "ok, fuck Westeros, I'm taking my revenge on this entire fucking country"?
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That'd be interesting to see him do. Either just marching up all the way North in a suicide mission or he'd try to break the wall and fuck everyone. Not sure he could get that crazy though.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
The north certainly remembers...but they aren't going to follow Stannis south. Even Robb was concerned that his men might leave him if he marched back home. I just don't see how Stannis can get south with a decent army and challenge...whoever is on the throne.

bodyofanamerican said:
Just to be clear, by break do you mean snap? Like "ok, fuck Westeros, I'm taking my revenge on this entire fucking country"?
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Snap. I think he'll do something insane become the Night's King.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
Why are there predictions about who will become the Night's King? Is there a prophecy a la Azor Ahai that I missed? I thought the Night's King was a historical figure.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Assuming that was the Nights King in Season 4 I think it's safe to assume that he may have more powers than just turning babies into white walkers. Perhaps he possesses a distraught Stannis to use him for his purposes.
 
B

bodyofanamerican

Member
I wish this all didn't make so much sense, but dramatically it really fits that Stannis goes against all of his stated principles to get the throne. Particularly after a perceived betrayal by Davos and the death of Shireen.

Dammit.

edit: I'm curious how much they told Dillane or any of the actors before taking their roles.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Lautaro said:
Yeah, instead we got beetles monologue...
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You want to complain about what might be the show's most spectacular moment? The moment in which all meta breaks loose? Where the the characters point to the readers/viewers and ask who exactly is getting played? In favor of an unneeded extra moment with Stannis? NAAAAAAH. Beetles was upper-tier television brilliance and I won't hear otherwise.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Concerning Stannis' reluctance, I think that he's far less interested in his duty than he claims. If he didn't want to be king, he would have supported the stronger Renly.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Valhelm said:
Concerning Stannis' reluctance, I think that he's far less interested in his duty than he claims. If he didn't want to be king, he would have supported the stronger Renly.
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You just posited two different motivations. He doesn't believe in duty because he made the choice to follow his duty?
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Iksenpets said:
I actually think that Stannis' logic in his response to Davos, that family obligation trumps law, ties into all of that, too. Family is really important to Stannis, and that it wasn't important to his brothers I think really messed with him. When he's talking about his duty as king at some point later on, I remember that first on his list, before his duty to the protect the kingdom, he mentions his duty to his daughter to secure her rights as his heir. Stannis talks big game about law and all that, but there's always a really strong current of family running underneath everything.
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Stannis, the family man who runs away when one brother is in danger, unknowingly assassinates the other, and then tries to burn his nephew alive. Then again, family was important to Tywin too.

bengraven said:
Holy shit, I was just made aware of the Ashford theory on Reddit.

She may end up getting everything she wanted in the end.
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Five suitors that she doesn't want? None that she marries? I'm not seeing where this theory suggests happiness for Sansa.
 
M

Massa

Member
Valhelm said:
Concerning Stannis' reluctance, I think that he's far less interested in his duty than he claims. If he didn't want to be king, he would have supported the stronger Renly.
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Renly is actually the younger brother to Stannis, not the other way around.
 
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