Support NeoGAF

[Moff]

I think Jon is never coming back. That finale was written pretty powerfully. He just made the decision to leave the Wall and figure out his family situation.

Then everybody on the Wall betrays him and kills him.

He got Ned Starked. He's over.

well, in the show it happened pretty much like most book readers expected. I think chances are very low he stays dead in the books. He was a point of view character since the first novel. His death would serve no purpose apart from making all his chapters meaningless. That was different with Ned (and Robb, who was not even a pov character)

btw. if you want to only discuss the books there is a book thread
this thread here is for discussing the show with book knowledge.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I wonder how anime will the show get if/when Jon gets Lightbringer. Sometimes I wish the show was a tad more outrageous from a visual standpoint.

The fight scene at the Tower of Joy was pretty anime. Not necessarily in a good way, but still. I'd say the sky's the limit if Lightbringer enters the equation.

 

[Mediking]

well, in the show it happened pretty much like most book readers expected. I think chances are very low he stays dead in the books. He was a point of view character since the first novel. His death would serve no purpose apart from making all his chapters meaningless. That was different with Ned (and Robb, who was not even a pov character)

btw. if you want to only discuss the books there is a book thread
this thread here is for discussing the show with book knowledge.

The books are something I strangely have a purist view of so I really don't even watch or care for the show... I would go to that book thread but it seems dead...

And wow. Thanks for reminding just how cursed that Stark bloodline is.... RIP Ned, Robb, and Jon.

 

[Moff]

The books are something I strangely have a purist view of so I really don't even watch or care for the show... I would go to that book thread but it seems dead...

maybe you can resurrect it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
and it's ok to not care about the show, but I'd say most book readers didn't think Jon stays dead long before it was shown in the tv series. When I read Jon's death scene I just immediacy though "Nice try GRRM, I don't believe that for a second"

 

[hendersonhank]

This statement leads me to believe you didn't read the book lol.

I read each book as it came out.

After skimming this thread, I remember Arianne was Dornish. I still couldn't tell you her position or family, or anything that she did.

Every single thing in Dorne in the books was trash, and I'd have preferred if it were all left out of both the show and the books entirely.

 

[jfkgoblue]

I think Jon is never coming back. That finale was written pretty powerfully. He just made the decision to leave the Wall and figure out his family situation.

Then everybody on the Wall betrays him and kills him.

He got Ned Starked. He's over.

He warged into Ghost. He's coming back.

 

[Brakke]

Jon's not gone. That whole prologue with Six Skins warg-style body-hopping says so.

 

[Mediking]

maybe you can resurrect it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
and it's ok to not care about the show, but I'd say most book readers didn't think Jon stays dead long before it was shown in the tv series. When I read Jon's death scene I just immediacy though "Nice try GRRM, I don't believe that for a second"

He warged into Ghost. He's coming back.

Hahahah you guys wanna bet? Ned is gone. Robb is gone. Jon is gone. I just don't see Jon coming back. It would be amazing but I just don't see it happening.

I forget whose the lead guy now but I think his name is Stannis... lmao my memory is fuzzy because now I think his name starts with a "T". Theron...? Lol

 

[Brakke]

Yes I wanna bet. I will honest-to-god put ten thousand dollars down. I'll even give you odds if you want.

 

[Zabka]

I knew Dorne was fucked when Areo Hotah showed up wearing rug armor

 

[John Dunbar]

i think we found the only person who actually believes jon is dead and will remain so.

 

[ryseing]

i think we found the only person who actually believes jon is dead and will remain so.

Nah bruh. Melisandre is hanging out at the wall for no reason.

 

[Mediking]

Yes I wanna bet. I will honest-to-god put ten thousand dollars down. I'll even give you odds if you want.

i think we found the only person who actually believes jon is dead and will remain so.

How can you guys be so confident when Ned, Robb, and countless others have NOT come back?

Jon is one of my favorite characters. The man is DEAD.

 

[fuzaco]

Ned and Robb died to advance the story. How would Jon's death do that?

 

[CopperPuppy]

I think Jon is never coming back. That finale was written pretty powerfully. He just made the decision to leave the Wall and figure out his family situation.

Then everybody on the Wall betrays him and kills him.

He got Ned Starked. He's over.

I've spent way too much time over the years poring over fan theories and speculation and it never fails to surprise me when a book reader believes Jon isn't coming back.

 

[ryseing]

How can you guys be so confident when Ned, Robb, and countless others have NOT come back?

Jon is one of my favorite characters. The man is DEAD.

It's a plot contrivance to get him out of his vows.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Hahahah you guys wanna bet? Ned is gone. Robb is gone. Jon is gone. I just don't see Jon coming back. It would be amazing but I just don't see it happening.

I forget whose the lead guy now but I think his name is Stannis... lmao my memory is fuzzy because now I think his name starts with a "T". Theron...? Lol

How about a one year avatar bet?

I'm sure there would be multiple takers on the "Jon will be alive in the future" side of the bet

 

[Brakke]

Actually in the time since I read ADWD I've come around to thinking there's some small chance Jon stays dead.

Martin might just not finish the series. 🙃

 

[fuzaco]

What's the point of a bet when the book is never coming out anyway?

 

[Gleethor]

The books are something I strangely have a purist view of so I really don't even watch or care for the show... I would go to that book thread but it seems dead...

And wow. Thanks for reminding just how cursed that Stark bloodline is.... RIP Ned, Robb, and Jon.

So wait why are you here

 

[Latvian Hitman]

What's the point of a bet when the book is never coming out anyway?

You make a solid point.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Actually in the time since I read ADWD I've come around to thinking there's some small chance Jon stays dead.

Martin might just not finish the series. 🙃

Well, I'm willing to modify the bet to "Jon will be around as a (somewhat) living human in Winds of Winter, specifically"

 

[Brakke]

So wait why are you here

It's Thursday. Not like we have anything else to talk about.

 

[Mediking]

I guess there IS the chance that Jon could come back the same weird way Catelyn Stark did...

But guys. Ned is GONE. Robb is GONE. Jon is GONE. All have died in horrific ways. Especially Robb. They haven't come back because of how powerful it is that they died.

 

[Oldest Snake]

Jon's not gone. That whole prologue with Six Skins warg-style body-hopping says so.

Not only that, but Varamyr has multiple warg-wolves in his 'pack' and specifically comments that Mance Rayder should have let him Warg into Ghost, as it would be a 'second life worthy of a King'.

Jon comin' back for sure.

I kinda think Mel will take over as the POV on The Wall for a while though, even after Jon comes back. That's how GRRM will illustrate the change (assuming we ever get the fucking book).

 

[Ros8105]

I would love for Jon to stay dead tbh, it would make the story more interesting. But I can't see it happening.

Just keep Stannis alive please.

 

[mstevens]

I guess there IS the chance that Jon could come back the same weird way Catelyn Stark did...

But guys. Ned is GONE. Robb is GONE. Jon is GONE. All have died in horrific ways. Especially Robb. They haven't come back because of how powerful it is that they died.

I've poured over hundreds of really detailed, text-backed theories and threads and I've never met a die hard fan of the book think that Jon is actually dead.

You know who else has died? Several times? Beric Dondarrion. You know who was able to bring him back? A Red priest. You know who is at the wall when Jon dies?

I mean hell, earlier in the book George sets the framework for wargs being able to transition into animal's bodies as they die to preserve their soul. And his body is put on ice.

There's a 0% chance Jon stays dead. The book series is called a Song of Ice and Fire and most people believe that is in reference to either Jon and Dany or Jon himself, depending on who you think his parents are in the books (which I believe is the same as the show). It's entirely possible that he dies once he fulfills his purpose, but he sure as hell hasn't done that yet.

edit: Plus there is no reason to put all this backstory and hints as to who his parents are and why it's a big deal if he just dies on the wall. You keep mentioning Robb and Ned. Their deaths had huge impacts on the current events in Westeros. Jon's dying on the wall isn't the same.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Jon comes back.

But it's not just Jon. As he was in spirit form he somehow ends up meeting with Eddards ghost and they both come back to his body.

Now they must live together in the same body. Father and son? Wow wee! Catch the brand new show on tbs

 

[Mediking]

I've poured over hundreds of really detailed, text-backed theories and threads and I've never met a die hard fan of the book think that Jon is actually dead.

You know who else has died? Several times? Beric Dondarrion. You know who was able to bring him back? A Red priest. You know who is at the wall when Jon dies?

I mean hell, earlier in the book George sets the framework for wargs being able to transition into animal's bodies as they die to preserve their soul. And his body is put on ice.

There's a 0% chance Jon stays dead. The book series is called a Song of Ice and Fire and most people believe that is in reference to either Jon and Dany or Jon himself, depending on who you think his parents are in the books (which I believe is the same as the show). It's entirely possible that he dies once he fulfills his purpose, but he sure as hell hasn't done that yet.

edit: Plus there is no reason to put all this backstory and hints as to who his parents are and why it's a big deal if he just dies on the wall. You keep mentioning Robb and Ned. Their deaths had huge impacts on the current events in Westeros. Jon's dying on the wall isn't the same.

Well..... I say there's a 95% chance Jon stays dead.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Well..... I say there's a 95% chance Jon stays dead.

so are you going to take me up on the avatar bet

we can make it shorter if you think one year is too much

 

[jett]

Jon is being resurrected. It's pretty much fact.

 

[Mediking]

so are you going to take me up on the avatar bet

we can make it shorter if you think one year is too much

I'm seriously thinking about doing it but give me time to think.

I've listened to what you guys have said... but my heart keeps telling me that Jon is dead and there's no way he's coming back. There was too much damn build up. The scene was too powerful for it just so he can come back.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

no worries, take your time

 

[Freshmaker]

Well..... I say there's a 95% chance Jon stays dead.

That sounds like wishful thinking honestly .

They set up so many tells and foreshadowed it so strongly that you'd have to have some berserk preconception of the books that has nothing to do with the content to go down that he's dead forever route.

 

[Mediking]

That sounds like wishful thinking honestly .

They set up so many tells and foreshadowed it so strongly that you'd have to have some berserk preconception of the books that has nothing to do with the content to go down that he's dead forever route.

Let's say... Jon DOESN'T come back? What will all of you guys say then???

 

[Freshmaker]

Let's say... Jon DOESN'T come back? What will all of you guys say then???

Given he can warg into Ghost, I think it's a given that Jon would live on in some form regardless.

This strikes me as you just wanting edgy realism when the books are blatantly transitioning to hard fantasy.

 

[Paganmoon]

Let's say... Jon DOESN'T come back? What will all of you guys say then???

I'd say GRRM is a hack and doesn't know good storytelling?

Well, not exactly, but almost. Cause it'd be terrible storytelling.

 

[Moff]

imagine reading those long chapters that try their best to let us think Jon is dead until he is ressurrected in an unexpected twist.
Imagine GRRM writing this, imagine his pain.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Isn't the show like officially canon given GRRMs involvement?

I doubt there will be drastic changes from what has happened on the show. Sure there will be additional content given what the show hadn't even touched, but no way is Jon not going to be resurrected in the books (if GRRM is even able to complete another one).

 

[John Dunbar]

Isn't the show like officially canon given GRRMs involvement?

I doubt there will be drastic changes from what has happened on the show. Sure there will be additional content given what the show hadn't even touched, but no way is Jon not going to be resurrected in the books (if GRRM is even able to complete another one).

the show is canon as far as the show is concerned. the books are canon as far as the books are concerned. jon is alive because it's obvious, and the show was kind of silly for even including his "death" since nothing came of it.

 

[Mediking]

Isn't the show like officially canon given GRRMs involvement?

I doubt there will be drastic changes from what has happened on the show. Sure there will be additional content given what the show hadn't even touched, but no way is Jon not going to be resurrected in the books (if GRRM is even able to complete another one).

Maybe the show is just official fanfiction...

*coughs loudly*

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

Let's say... Jon DOESN'T come back? What will all of you guys say then???

That Martin is a hack and changed the story because the show overtook him?

Like you can argue how much of the show events will eventually make it to paper but it's pretty clear Jon was supposed to come back to life.

 

[Brakke]

"Canon" isn't a thing unless we're talking about the dang Bible.

If GRR decides to spite the show and keep Jon dead and just turn the whole series into some hateful nihilism disaster, I'd actually be on board at this point. Would be ballsy to just toss up a couple birds and walk away.

 

[jett]

I'm seriously thinking about doing it but give me time to think.

I've listened to what you guys have said... but my heart keeps telling me that Jon is dead and there's no way he's coming back. There was too much damn build up. The scene was too powerful for it just so he can come back.

It makes zero sense for Jon's story to end at that point, he has accomplished nothing. Only a hack would write a character arc like that solely for the sake of shock value. GRRM is many things, but not a hack.

This is the equivalent of thinking there's a chance of Dany being killed by the Dothraki, or Arya dying in Braavos. These characters are all making it to the end.

 

[Faddy]

Waiting eagerly for the Official Novelization of the Show

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Isn't the show like officially canon given GRRMs involvement?

I doubt there will be drastic changes from what has happened on the show. Sure there will be additional content given what the show hadn't even touched, but no way is Jon not going to be resurrected in the books (if GRRM is even able to complete another one).

I think he'll come back much more changed then he was in canon.

And I can't wait till returned Jon meets Returned Cat.

 

[Gigglepoo]

History of Westeros pointed out that they think fAegon will be king at this point in the books and that's why we're seeing the Tarly's break with the Tyrells. They are Blackfyre supporters so it makes sense. Kind of cool to think about fAegon succeeding.

 

[jett]

History of Westeros pointed out that they think fAegon will be king at this point in the books and that's why we're seeing the Tarly's break with the Tyrells. They are Blackfyre supporters so it makes sense. Kind of cool to think about fAegon succeeding.

fAegon annoys me greatly. So much of ADWD feels like a waste of time.

 

[Cornballer]

The books are something I strangely have a purist view of so I really don't even watch or care for the show... I would go to that book thread but it seems dead...

If that's the case, then you should really move on over to the other thread. It does pick up from time to time when there's discussion to be had.

 

[Speevy]

Guys, I'll be honest. I'm not trying to be a hater. But I'm really getting tired of all the glaring plot holes. Just tell a simple story. I love this show, and having to rationalize all the stupidity in the writing has just taken its toll on me.