It's frustrating listening to smart TV critics ignore the show's myriad problems. I honestly think it's because many don't understand what's going on well enough to take issue with the logic leaps and are glad things are less complicated now than in the first three seasons. I'm fine with people enjoying the spectacle and getting into the immediate emotions of scenes, but I do wish people were more thoughtful withf their assessments.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
It's frustrating listening to smart TV critics ignore the show's myriad problems. I honestly think it's because many don't understand what's going on well enough to take issue with the logic leaps and are glad things are less complicated now than in the first three seasons. I'm fine with people enjoying the spectacle and getting into the immediate emotions of scenes, but I do wish people were more thoughtful withf their assessments.
hydrophilic attack
Member
at this point i'm mostly along for the few great set pieces per season
and to not be spoiled by coworkers
and for #briemund
Cornballer
Member
A couple Pilou Asbæk (Euron) interviews from yesterday:
- Variety
- Time.com
THR interviews:
- John Bradley
- Nathalie Emmanuel
Also:
- Making Game of Thrones: Cersei Takes on a Dragon Skull in This Storyboard
- Watchers: Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 2 Stormborn Video Recap Roundup
- Variety
- Time.com
THR interviews:
- John Bradley
- Nathalie Emmanuel
Also:
- Making Game of Thrones: Cersei Takes on a Dragon Skull in This Storyboard
- Watchers: Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 2 Stormborn Video Recap Roundup
Can you point out some of these glaring plot holes?
Or are you trying to place rules onto the show that simply don't exist.
StopMakingSense
Member
With how much they are trying to tell in as few episodes as they have, there are going to be a whole lot of plot holes.
Tuturu Jones
Neo Member
What doesn't make sense at all is how Melisandre is now with Danny and telling her she's the woman of legends, after she revived Jon and knows what he wants to do.
The question of legitimate succession was the impetus for the main plot thrust in season 1 and now one need only kill the former ruler to become king or queen.
Mediking
Member
??? Which thread? I thought the other thread was only for the tv show? I thought this thread was like a hybrid for book and show story discussion.
hydrophilic attack
Member
She never said that.
That said, sucking up to some other powerful person that would let her do some blood magic wouldn't be out of character for her
In all fairness to the show, it worked for Robert.
I'll agree that Cersei becoming Queen in the books is a stretch that I don't see happening. There's also the fact that Tommen is a toddler and will probably not be killing himself any time soon.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I think he means this one
That said, I quite like having something in here to discuss in between episodes. But I wouldn't mind seeing some more activity in the dedicated book thread either
Cornballer
Member
Mediking
Member
Ohhhhhh... well I'll try it and see if anybody is still there.
Using the show's current logic, Jamie would have been king because he slayed Aerys. And Cercei would have been queen after killing Robert.
But the first season was all "Her kids are bastards, they can't rule" whereas now Cercei is the first Queen of Westeros and bastards rule Dorne and the North. Those are plot holes/logic leaps that defy the rules the series once set.
She never said that she was, but Dany is so full of herself that she simply assumes it.
-Dany shouldn't have sailed safely into Dragonstone.
-Euron shouldn't have been able to find Yara's fleet in the middle of the ocean unless someone tipped him off.
-Randyll Tarly should offer his political support but not actively try to undermine Olenna, since Cersei's position is weak, evil, unlawful, and absurd.
-Euron Greyjoy should be dead like 15 times using just the visual information presented in the last episode.
-Arya is now traveling faster than Littlefinger across the continent of Westeros.
-The people of King's Landing offer no objection to Euron or Cersei even though they were very recently under the rule of a rigid theocracy which they appeared to support.
-No one has any objection to the death of the king and queen, the latter of whom was beloved. Randyll Tarly should be absolutely livid about the death of his lord, Mace Tyrell.
-Euron Greyjoy should not have 10 ships, let alone whatever amount he was able to build with the 0 resources on the Iron Islands.
-Jorah Mormont has been cured by cutting off his greyscale. Like...why didn't milllions of people think of this when the black death was spreading through Europe? If a disease is called deadly, it should be deadly.
-Cersei's rule should be opposed by every commoner and noble left in Westeros because she's a woman who has been accused of adultery to her husband.
-How have Bran and Meera been surviving with no food or water?
-Why are they banding together every single "sidekick" character into one party? This isn't the brotherhood without banners. It's the brotherhood without screen time.
-Where are the Dothraki and how are they feeding their men and horses?
-Where are the unsullied and how are they feeding their men?
-How is it that the Dornish armies have not taken up arms against someone? Anyone? Are they content to just stay south and let this war happen?
-Who is the lord of the Riverlands? Which house rules the Twins? Who holds Riverrun?
-Why did Dany let Melisandre into her service?
-Why doesn't anyone bring up the very obvious conflict of interest Tyrion has in attacking his own family meanwhile suggesting a less hostile end to the war?
I could do this for days, and it's just been 2 episodes.
Cersei is queen because she took the throne by force, as it usually goes. Ostensibly either Ned or Jamie could've been king with the proper amount of support behind them.
Dorne is a shitshow and the whole deal in the North is really strange that I don't quite swallow either to be honest. With Dorne D&D have given zero fucks, and the situation in the North is highly convenient, especially because Jon hasn't really done anything to warrant being crowned (it was Littlefinger who saved the day after all), his status as a bastard aside.
I'll also add that while I see some logic in Cersei's current position, I don't like how strong her position actually is at all. I thought it would've been much weaker and shakier than it actually is. This is some really wack writing.
Ocarina_117
Banned
He's another example of a butchered character arc in the show. Joining a long list.
Red Arremer
Member
I thought Littlefinger was the lord of the Riverlands, being the lord of Harrenhal? The way I remember it being presented was that the Freys got Riverrun, but only Riverrun, nothing more.
As for your other questions: I imagine the house of the latest wife probably has the best claim to the Twins now, but since that is a fairly recent event, the situation of the Frey succession might simply not have been addressed. Though if I had to guess: Probably the wife and whatever house she belonged to before marrying Walder.
As for who's holding Riverrun: A castellan loyal to the Freys and/or Lannisters, probably.
Watch this scene and listen to Littlefinger's reasoning for having Yohn Royce thrown through the Moon Door.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsUy5X9tUlQ
Now listen to Tyrion's orders to Olenna, Ellaria, and Yara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH6-K3T-jgQ
Dany should throw Tyrion into the ocean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsUy5X9tUlQ
Now listen to Tyrion's orders to Olenna, Ellaria, and Yara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH6-K3T-jgQ
Dany should throw Tyrion into the ocean.
The white walkers won't know what hit 'em!
Not very well by the looks of it.
-Dany shouldn't have sailed safely into Dragonstone. - Why not? This is not a plothole
-Euron shouldn't have been able to find Yara's fleet in the middle of the ocean unless someone tipped him off. - Euron knew they were on Dragonstone, the audience not knowing he has this knowledge is not a plot hole
-Randyll Tarly should offer his political support but not actively try to undermine Olenna, since Cersei's position is weak, evil, unlawful, and absurd. Olenna is bringing savages to Westeros, Lord Tarly is weighing his options, not a plot hole
-Euron Greyjoy should be dead like 15 times using just the visual information presented in the last episode. Explain this one??
-Arya is now traveling faster than Littlefinger across the continent of Westeros. From the Twins to the Inn at the Crossroads isn't that far, events are not shown chronologically, Not a plothole
-The people of King's Landing offer no objection to Euron or Cersei even though they were very recently under the rule of a rigid theocracy which they appeared to support. Maybe they hated the theocracy? Maybe they see Cersei holds all the force with Gold Cloaks and Lannister soldiers?
-No one has any objection to the death of the king and queen, the latter of whom was beloved. Randyll Tarly should be absolutely livid about the death of his lord, Mace Tyrell. No one knows Randyll and Mace's relationship, maybe Randyll despised him as a buffoon who only laid siege to banquet table in the command tent
-Euron Greyjoy should not have 10 ships, let alone whatever amount he was able to build with the 0 resources on the Iron Islands. [I]He had more than 10 ships after Yara left for Mereen, the Iron Islands clearly have resources, he clearly has less than 1000 despite his boasts[/I]
-Jorah Mormont has been cured by cutting off his greyscale. Like...why didn't milllions of people think of this when the black death was spreading through Europe? If a disease is called deadly, it should be deadly. Has he been cured?
-Cersei's rule should be opposed by every commoner and noble left in Westeros because she's a woman who has been accused of adultery to her husband. The common folk don't care what games the High Lords play
-How have Bran and Meera been surviving with no food or water? There is food and water north of the wall, how else did the Wildings survive. Not a plothole
-Why are they banding together every single "sidekick" character into one party? This isn't the brotherhood without banners. It's the brotherhood without screen time. No idea what you are trying to say here but it isn't a plot hole
-Where are the Dothraki and how are they feeding their men and horses? Unseen presumably with supplies on Dragonstone
-Where are the unsullied and how are they feeding their men? Unseen presumably with supplies on Dragonstone
-How is it that the Dornish armies have not taken up arms against someone? Anyone? Are they content to just stay south and let this war happen? They could just fight for the sake of it? their lords need to choose a side? Why not wait for Dany and her Dragons, seems sensible to me
-Who is the lord of the Riverlands? Which house rules the Twins? Who holds Riverrun? Positions can be vacant, Not a plothole
-Why did Dany let Melisandre into her service? She was happy to have the Red God on her side in Mereen, no harm in having a Red Priestess in her camp
-Why doesn't anyone bring up the very obvious conflict of interest Tyrion has in attacking his own family meanwhile suggesting a less hostile end to the war? I'm pretty sure Olenna was making that very point and would have complained more had Tyrion not laid out the plan of sacking Casterly Rock
elrechazado
Banned
He's ten years old, toddlers are 2.In all fairness to the show, it worked for Robert.
I'll agree that Cersei becoming Queen in the books is a stretch that I don't see happening. There's also the fact that Tommen is a toddler and will probably not be killing himself any time soon.
That's not a plot hole at all though. The first "season" didn't say anything about legitimacy of bastards. The Lannisters said the kids could rule, the Baratheons said they couldn't. They, you know, ended up having a couple wars about it.
Holding the throne has always been a question of power, not law. Robert only married Cersei in the first place because if he hadn't made some concession to Lannister, he would've had to fight them next. I think literally everybody who tried to claim that law was more important than might has been killed / overthrown.
Aren't your first two points contradictions? Dany shouldn't have been able to sail into Dragonstone because it should've been easy to blockade... but Euron shouldn't have been able to track Yara because Dragonstone isn't easy to blockade? Just because something isn't explicit doesn't mean it's a plot hole. This is easy to assume. Nobody blockaded Dragonstone because they didn't think they had the weaponry to stop the dragons from punching through; Euron managed to ambush Yara because he's a world class pirate and he knew where Yara would depart from, without dragons.
Tarly was pissed about the death of Mace, he was gunna side with Olenna until the Lannisters offered him a deal.
Jorah isn't cured of greyscale yet. We don't know if or how that worked. And everyone did know that removing the tissue could prevent the spread, the Arch Maester says he should've cut his arm off straight away. Shireen wasn't cured as a kiddo because presumably nobody wanted to cut her dang face off.
Cersei's rule *has* been opposed by most of Westeros, there's a clear reason why there aren't riots in the streets that it's that she's just had zombiemen going around crushing the skulls of dissidents and she just nuked the last power to oppose her. She's a vicious tyrant and most of the people willing to stand against her have left the capitol to rally against her.
"How do people eat" isn't a plot hole. They have provisions. Bran and Meera got some from Benjen, the invaders brought some with them. Presumably Dany couldn't just stay in Dragonstone forever, but she hasn't been there forever.
The previous episode *was* an attempt by the Dornish armies to take up arms? And before now, they didn't rise up because Doran Martell was a coward. They did, after all, coup his ass. That wasn't just a Sand Snake plot, all the palace guards were in on it, too.
We know who holds Riverrun, it's Edmure Tully in thrall to the Lannisters. The Twins only just got their lords oustered. It doesn't really matter who holds The Twins unless someone needs to move an army between the north and the south.
Tyrion killed his own dad and his sister put out a hit on him. Where's the conflict of interest? People accept that he's defected from Lannister and he has the receipts to make a solid case.
A lot of these criticisms are you either straight missing stuff or else being dissatisfied with the explanations the show offers. Which, fine. The show is way way less detailed than the books in terms of chronicling stores of provisions and playing tight with geography. But the show's been fairly consistent on these issues. Provisions haven't ever been a problem unless you lead your entire army against the Wildlings, then into an occupation of Castle Black, then in a campaign against the Boltons, in the freezing North. The fact that they're not a problem right now is totally consistent with the precedent, Dany's position isn't anything like Stannis's was. So most of this isn't "plot holes" but the show consistently hand waving things it generally isn't interested in.
Everyone is aware she is coming, and there is only one place for her to land. It's not a secret. She didn't sneak in. It was literally waiting for her.
Yara knew Euron was after her too. This was a scene in season 6. There's no reason for her to be randomly found with his ships unless someone planned it so.
His options are do it or die. Had he stayed in Horn Hill, he would have more options.
He was a one man wrecking crew against Yara's ship. Where are the iron islanders defending their queen? While he was battling the bad pussies, they should have put him down easily. Euron also rules by fear. Killing him means you win the game, same as Cersei, Ramsay, and other "head of the snake" characters.
Of course events are shown chronologically. They just aren't shown with a second-for-second correlation. If Arya arrives in Winterfell and it appears that Jon has just left for Dragonstone, we can assume she got there pretty fast.
If they hated the theocracy, they should also have hated the killing of Margaery, who tried to bring a peaceful end to the conflict between the faith and the nobles.
No, because the Tarly name means something. He doesn't stab people in the back for being "Lord Oaf".
There are several scenes of characters implyng or outright saying that the iron islands are a pile of rocks. When we see them, that's exactly what they are. Jaime Lannister, who is an authority on the different regions says that the Greyjoys steal anything they can't build or grow themselves.
There is no visual information to imply that Euron Greyjoy has made this iron fleet.
I don't think he's going to die from the disease. That's good enough for the storyline.
But the nobles do. She spread the Lannister armies so thin through her scheming and politics now it's apparently back to full force.
By not carrying a crippled teenager around on a sled.
I just find the brotherhood/Hound/whoever else alliance a little convenient, that's all.
I'd like to see it. Seeing Robb Stark marching with his men was a great point in season 3 because you could tell the men had been at it for a while.
I would be surprised if the word "Dorne" is uttered beyond the deaths of Ellaria and Tyene.
Positions can. Castles not so much.
Then Dany is a buffoon. Oh here's the first creepy sorceress I've met here in Westeros, welcome to team Dany!
Using the logic most people would employ, Dany should be reasonably sure that Tyrion just sent her entire Westerosi army to the slaughter.
DarkJediKnight
Member
In all fairness to the show, it worked for Robert.
I'll agree that Cersei becoming Queen in the books is a stretch that I don't see happening. There's also the fact that Tommen is a toddler and will probably not be killing himself any time soon.
Robert was king because he had the best claim to the throne not named Targaryien.
Robert is part Targaryien so his claim was greater. He was the commander of the rebellion and comes from a house with greater claim to the throne than any Lannister or Stark.
Cersei is queen due to process of elimination. The Baratheon line is dead (we know Gendry lives), Cersei is ruler due to being married to Robert. But any of Robert's bastards would have a claim over her.
elrechazado
Banned
the bastards by definition don't have any claim.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Meaning bastards can rally houses behind them because of who their father was.
Jon gets a lot of things handed to him not just for his bravery but because people know who his "father" was.
These are all argumentative points, not plot holes.
You promised some glaring plot holes and have failed to deliver
All right, I misremembered, I thought he was actually younger than that.
I guess I missed that bit, but I don't think it matters. He took the throne by force.
Is that right? She was queen dowager/mother. I'm pretty sure there are no queens regnant in Westeros anyway. Honestly I'm not sure what the line of succession would actually look like after last season's finale.
elrechazado
Banned
eh, he waddles, so it's an easy mistake to make. Robert's great grandmother? was a Targaryen - rhaelle, sister to aegon the unlikely and aemon of castle black.
That is partly why Cersei has been able to put herself on the throne. There is no other legitimate alternative that could unite people against her.
And those who have backed Dany have been busy gathering her forces from the East giving Cersei time to consolidate her position.
Wait so on the show who still knows where Gendry even is? Or who saw him off paddling? Davos?
If he has definitive proof that Gendry is Robert's son maybe Gendry will make an appearance on the show again, but not a lot of episodes left to dive back into that. Totally strange they just dropped him like that. Would be kind of cool to see an attempted Gendry King at least.
If he has definitive proof that Gendry is Robert's son maybe Gendry will make an appearance on the show again, but not a lot of episodes left to dive back into that. Totally strange they just dropped him like that. Would be kind of cool to see an attempted Gendry King at least.
The elements are there to make it convincing that Cersei could take the throne. The problem is the show just never dealt with it. An intelligent well written show would have.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Cersei wishes to rule under a system but ignores all of its customs, and there is not an apparent replacement for that system.
So what's the point of ruling? What benefit is there for her or her family? Who does she herself benefit? I actually liked the piece of dialogue where Jaime and Cersei revisit the "dynasty" line that Tywin uttered in season 1, as if to say "What's the point anymore?"
So what is the point of Cersei having power? What is the point of people accepting her rule? I'm only arguing that the sensible option is for everyone to reject it.
Okay, I'll buy this. World class pirate yes, but has it ever been so easy to find a fleet of ships?
I don't think he ever stated or implied he was going to side with anyone until he was offered a deal. Olenna certainly should have shared a scene with him prior to this to convey this information if so.
It's like that scene in 24 when Jack Bauer gets exposed to radiation and he's a dead man walking until the show decides he's not.
Yes, but it is firmly established that the Lannisters have been getting weaker and weaker, but now they're suddenly stronger than ever.
Hand-waiving isn't the issue here. Consistency is. Two episodes ago a one-off character was shown having killed himself and his daughter to avoid starving to death. Arya and the Hound have to stop to get some food. These are the details that draw you into a world.
Okay, but Dorne is more than just Doran Martell. It's also the other houses that live there who have been shown in the show arriving at Joffrey's wedding. They exist. Surely they are now going to choose a new ruler since both their "weak man" Dorann and the bad pussies are gone. And would that new ruler oppose Cersei?
Well, I'd like to know this. This stretch of land was the setting for much of the show for seasons 2-4, and disappeared for a while.
Killing people you hate does not make you reliable or loyal. It doesn't make you trustworthy. Perhaps Tyrion's sense of mercy makes him unfit for his job in this time of war.
Whether yo like the term "plot hole", I'm not asking the show to be anything like the books. I am asking for the show to convey information that the viewer needs to know and refer back to that information when it is relevant.
What they do instead is convey information that is convenient, and ignore that same information when it is convenient.
And your problem is with the words "plot hole" which is a semantics argument that doesn't really address inconsistencies with storytelling.
There was serious talk about succession and who was the rightful ruler throughout the early seasons. It was a major plot point. Sure, power ultimately won the throne, but people amassed power because of their claim. It was extremely telling that Renly got support over Stannis and was not only explained but informed the personalities and motivations of those characters.
So, yes, succession was important and now it's dropped.
So, yes, succession was important and now it's dropped.
I think it's pretty clear the show is most concerned now with illustrating that only Targaryen claim matters. Any other rules of claim and conquest have been swept under the rug in favor of Dany repeating for the hundredth time "I will take back my fathers throne that they stole from me" or some such variant.
Plot hole has a definition. None of your point are pointing out plot holes.
In fiction, a plot hole or plothole is a logical inconsistency within a story. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
So don't say this
then complain when someone tells you that you are talking nonsense.
But doesn't the Renly vs Stannis plot show that who has the best claim does not amass the most support.
If succession and laws were really important to Westerosi nobles, no one should have supported Renly.
The King's Landing populace rioted in S2(?) because they were starving. But after Cercei murdered the leader of their faith and beloved queen, there's no civil unrest. Is that a plot hole? An inconsistency? Sloppy storytelling? A priory shift? Time constraints? All of the above? It doesn't matter what you call it but it goes against what was already established.
Like I said, Renly's support was addressed and explained. Martin recognized that it didn't make sense in a feudal system so he made sure to go into detail why it happened and why it mattered.
Like I said, Renly's support was addressed and explained. Martin recognized that it didn't make sense in a feudal system so he made sure to go into detail why it happened and why it mattered.
Holding up some single-father dirt farmer living in the wilderness in the middle of warzone against Dany's invasion force is silly. Obviously different standards apply to the one than to the other. The fact that that dude starved to death has no bearing on Dany's ability to pack some beef jerky onto her ships with her.
Exactly. Thank you.
Let me pose an example for everyone.
Let's say I want to be the leader of a club, but they won't let me in. So I lie, cheat, and break the rules to get in the club. Now I am the leader. Now I make the rules. But I don't bother to make any rules. I just make sure everyone knows that I am the leader, and nobody should oppose my leadership. But people do, so I lie, cheat, and break more rules to get them out of the club. But no one joins my club. I just keep kicking people out. Should I have the appearance of strength or weakness?
And how did that riot work out for them? The gold cloaks and King's Guard murdered the shit out of a bunch of people. A ton of the people interested in doing a populist uprising joined the Faith Militant... and then got the shit murdered out of them. Meanwhile, Cersei has an unstoppable zombie-monster going around crushing skulls of malcontents.
Like. Sometimes tyrants crush the people's will and win. That's a thing that happens.
Sure, makes sense. But you're guessing because the show hasn't addressed this. We can fill this hole with whatever explanation we want but we'll never know the truth of the situation.
I don't think he'll come back the same. I think his personality and shit will be affected by the resurrection.