Support NeoGAF

[BigTnaples]

Isn't that the definition of "diminishing returns" though? There's still the angle it'll be a big enough to appreciate, yes, just looking at how much nicer console games looked on an GeForce 8800 GT shows that, nevermind a more modern card like a 560 Ti or the 680 used for the UE4 demo. But it IS probable the jump will be more subtle, and something that we'll appreciate but maybe not the masses at large. Hell, this generation was a bigger jump in raw numbers than this next one is likely to be, yet the jump in my eyes for polygonal models from the PS1 to PS2 dwarves your example there.

Frankly, my bigger hope is more with larger, more seamless/active areas if technology's seriously pushed. We may get that even without, just a jump in ram from 512 to 2 GB, nevermind 4 or 8 would do a lot.

Yes, and yes we will see diminishing returns next gen.


That said, it does not mean that the jumo will be tiny like some are suggesting.


There were be a large difference, and one that is very tangable. It will just be focused in different areas.

Lighting of the environment, subsurface scattering on skin and water and plants, bokeh depth of field for cinematic, less clipping of clothing and armors, better physics and destruction, higher resolution assets, larger scale, lack of as many loading cells, etc etc etc.

Models will improve, but they don't need to improve THAT much to look fantastic.

 

[Blizzard]

Is it silly that one of the things I like the most about this is the supposed ability to edit code on the fly? If they're getting rid of unrealscript, I guess it means rebuilding the DLL and relaunching the game without closing the editor, but still, I hated having to close the editor to compile unrealscript so that's a nice change. The weird thing is, I feel like people defended having to close the editor, justifying it as something that you shouldn't do since your code shouldn't change much and/or the editor doesn't take too much time to start back up. Regardless, it's nice not to HAVE to restart it.

 

[RoboPlato]

Yes, and yes we will see diminishing returns next gen.


That said, it does not mean that the jumo will be tiny like some are suggesting.


There were be a large difference, and one that is very tangable. It will just be focused in different areas.

Lighting of the environment, subsurface scattering on skin and water and plants, bokeh depth of field for cinematic, less clipping of clothing and armors, better physics and destruction, higher resolution assets, larger scale, lack of as many loading cells, etc etc etc.

Models will improve, but they don't need to improve THAT much to look fantastic.

Jesus. Those look incredible. I doubt we'll see models like that second one next-gen but I do hope that at least silhouette rounding using tesselation will be commonplace.

 

[Eusis]

Jesus. Those look incredible. I doubt we'll see models like that next-gen but I do hope that at least silhouette rounding using tesselation will be commonplace.

Yeah, it's crazy... and likely not what we're going to be seeing (or noticing) in next generation games, maybe not even the generation past that pending worst case scenarios unfolding for consoles.

 

[Xanadu]

i just cant wait to see what the new source engine looks like, when i first saw the half life 2 trailer my jaw hit the flaw

 

[Eusis]

i just cant wait to see what the new source engine looks like, when i first saw the half life 2 trailer my jaw hit the flaw

I remember how Doom 3 came off as more technically impressive, but HL2 managed to juggle both being technically impressive and having a strong art style to it. Though I guess nowadays HL2 would trump in both areas completely.

 

[Xanadu]

I remember how the Doom 3 came off as more technically impressive, but HL2 managed to juggle both being technically impressive and having a strong art style to it. Though I guess nowadays HL2 would trump in both areas completely.

yea half life was much nicer to look at, i think its similar to when gears of war launched, amazing looking but just so dreary. i much preferred the look of call of duty 2 which i got with my xbox in early 2006 even though it was less impressive technically

 

[Ran rp]

His swing doesn't seem to have any impact on the fire embers which is a little disappointing.

The particles in the air do react to his swing, just very subtly. It's hard to notice at full speed.

 

[BigTnaples]

Yeah, it's crazy... and likely not what we're going to be seeing (or noticing) in next generation games, maybe not even the generation past that pending worst case scenarios unfolding for consoles.

What?


Crysis 1 had faces almost on par with those in 2007.

I am positive with next gen hardware we will see faces like the ones I posted. Positive.




Edit: And yes the particles do react in a suprisingly realistic way.

It is VERY subtle, but if you notice when he pulls back the particles are tugged ever so slightly towards him, and when he swings, they are pushed ever so slightly away.

Same effect if you were to waft through dust with your hand. Pretty amazing.

 

[Xanadu]

really hope crytek release another game as amazing as crysis looked at the time, crysis 2 looked hardly any better than 1 and 3s looking kinda the same

 

[Eusis]

I am positive with next gen hardware we will see faces like the ones I posted. Positive.

... Hmmm.

Well, 1. we haven't seen many faces of that quality on consoles period, and 2. compared to the pictures above it actually is a pretty small jump, more an issue of lightning than detail. Mind, that probably does mean we'll see more of either of those two next generation, but it actually steals some of the punch.

Plus I swear I kept seeing face detail like that used as an example of how much better new technology was, only to not actually see much of that in practice.

 

[BigTnaples]

... Hmmm.

Well, 1. we haven't seen many faces of that quality on consoles period, and 2. compared to the pictures above it actually is a pretty small jump, more an issue of lightning than detail. Mind, that probably does mean we'll see more of either of those two next generation, but it actually steals some of the punch.

Plus I swear I kept seeing face detail like that used as an example of how much better new technology was, only to not actually see much of that in practice.

I am pretty sure in fact that the Faces used to show off the latest version of Cryengine 3 are likley models of characters in Crysis 3.

I duno that it steals the punch, the faces look and will look amazing next gen. We are in for a treat.

 

[Agent Ironside]

Next gen is definitely not going to be about pure poly count, it's going to be the added details that make things really shine and get people seeing a next gen "jump".

Perhaps the reason someone might not be impressed by the small snippet we've seen so far of UE4, is because of the CGI that we've seen this gen, playing something of that caliber is completely different than just watching it.

I'll echo BigTnaples in saying that there isn't too much further to go before we really get what we've been wanting. There indeed has been some "almost there" games, all those little things that take you out of the visual immersion we'll be erased next gen, keeping your jaw on the floor, constantly.

 

[Dictator93]

I am pretty sure in fact that the Faces used to show off the latest version of Cryengine 3 are likley models of characters in Crysis 3.

I duno that it steals the punch, the faces look and will look amazing next gen. We are in for a treat.

Yeah, pretty positive that face will show up in crisis 3 at some point. It is always that way.

 

[Eusis]

I am pretty sure in fact that the Faces used to show off the latest version of Cryengine 3 are likley models of characters in Crysis 3.

I duno that it steals the punch, the faces look and will look amazing next gen. We are in for a treat.

Well, they'll likely more reliably hit those levels at least.

all those little things that take you out of the visual immersion we'll be erased next gen

Nope!

 

[injurai]

what I have seen of UE4 is not impressive at all. Not saying they don't have the tech but they need better artists to convey it's power. CryEngine 3 shows off exactly what it is capable of.

 

[Agent Ironside]

Nope!

Ok FINE, I got carried away. most*

 

[squidyj]

Yes, and yes we will see diminishing returns next gen.


That said, it does not mean that the jumo will be tiny like some are suggesting.


There were be a large difference, and one that is very tangable. It will just be focused in different areas.

Lighting of the environment, subsurface scattering on skin and water and plants, bokeh depth of field for cinematic, less clipping of clothing and armors, better physics and destruction, higher resolution assets, larger scale, lack of as many loading cells, etc etc etc.

Models will improve, but they don't need to improve THAT much to look fantastic.

I'm not sure I see your point with those Cryengine shots, the in-game stuff wasn't really of that quality and that's more their cinewhatever showcase.

 

[Eusis]

Ok FINE, I got carried away. most*

We'll never be rid of seemingly retarded AI or when physics fail us in spectacular ways. And man am I glad for that.

 

[BigTnaples]

Nope!

Yes. For the most part.

Super low res skyboxes for one, like seen in Mass Effect 3, Deus Ex etc.. Will be a thing of the past. Which is huge.

Clipping, which is another huge issue with cloths and armor. (See Skyrim) If this one second gif is anything to go by will definitly be improved. (left hip piece).

Low resolution soft shadows that make everything look like it is made with legos.

Plants that have no physics when you walk through them or shoot at them.

GTA games where things dissapear as soon as you turn around, or when you highjack the rarest car in the game and suddenly EVERYONE is driving the same thing.

Water that does not have reflections, or every mirrior in the game being broken to avoid having to calculate reflectons.

Baked in shadows that don't react to light.

I could go on for a VERY long time.

There are a ton of compromises that current gen games have to make because of hardware that will for the most part be non exsistant next gen.

 

[BigTnaples]

I'm not sure I see your point with those Cryengine shots, the in-game stuff wasn't really of that quality and that's more their cinewhatever showcase.

The game that uses those models has not released yet.

I posted them to show the norm of models next gen, where as right now they are exceptinal models for current gen games. (including PC)

 

[professor_t]

If they're demonstrating this on a single 680, I'm looking forward to what I'll get with a slightly over clocked 670. Should be hot bananas.

 

[Eusis]

Yes. For the most part.

Super low res skyboxes for one, like seen in Mass Effect 3, Deus Ex etc.. Will be a thing of the past. Which is huge.

Clipping, which is another huge issue with cloths and armor. (See Skyrim) If this one second gif is anything to go by will definitly be improved. (left hip piece).

Low resolution soft shadows that make everything look like it is made with legos.

Plants that have no physics when you walk through them or shoot at them.

GTA games where things dissapear as soon as you turn around, or when you highjack the rarest car in the game and suddenly EVERYONE is driving the same thing.

Water that does not have reflections, or every mirrior in the game being broken to avoid having to calculate reflectons.

Baked in shadows that don't react to light.

I could go on for a VERY long time.

There are a ton of compromises that current gen games have to make because of hardware that will for the most part be non exsistant next gen.

Most of those are problems we may've hoped would be gone THIS generation, and I expect we'll still see them. Maybe they'll mask them better, or take steps to make them less of a problem, but the next jump won't be a cure-all to this stuff. Failing that and all those are fixed, we'd probably find new failings of technology instead.

 

[tkscz]

Yes. For the most part.

Super low res skyboxes for one, like seen in Mass Effect 3, Deus Ex etc.. Will be a thing of the past. Which is huge.

Clipping, which is another huge issue with cloths and armor. (See Skyrim) If this one second gif is anything to go by will definitly be improved. (left hip piece).

Low resolution soft shadows that make everything look like it is made with legos.

Plants that have no physics when you walk through them or shoot at them.

GTA games where things dissapear as soon as you turn around, or when you highjack the rarest car in the game and suddenly EVERYONE is driving the same thing.

Water that does not have reflections, or every mirrior in the game being broken to avoid having to calculate reflectons.

Baked in shadows that don't react to light.

I could go on for a VERY long time.

There are a ton of compromises that current gen games have to make because of hardware that will for the most part be non exsistant next gen.

three words, get a pc (well one word and three letters). No seriously, this is stuff I could care less about on a console, but that's just me. PC's are already doing this stuff. I still think Crysis 2 DX11 with High res textures shits on Samaritan.

 

[BigTnaples]

three words, get a pc (well one word and three letters). No seriously, this is stuff I could care less about on a console, but that's just me. PC's are already doing this stuff. I still think Crysis 2 DX11 with High res textures shits on Samaritan.

I have a brand new Ivy Bridge PC, unfortunately most games are still developed with consoles in mind.


Deus Ex that I played on PC still has sky boxes that take me out of the experience.(Hell even the last scene of Crysis 1 was inexplicably ruined by a terrible skybox)
Skyrim Still has clipping in armor, and without tweeks to the INI that effect performence more than they should, shadows are still jaggie.

Etc.



Also, Crysis 2 Dx11 with HD texture pack does look pretty damn fantastic, but does not come close to Samaritan, let alone shit on it....


But yes, PC gaming helps, I play most PC games with my 360 gamepad on my 55" Samsung D8000 3DTV in 1080p at 60+fps, and the games look glorious.


I have been playing Arkham City recently and the graphics in that game are not given enough credit. At max settings it looks and plays beautifully.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Why cant Devs release Tech Demoes of Engine that are "playable"

....meaning a character or subject being controlled and affecting the environment in real time.

Demo your engine in practical gaming way.

 

[tkscz]

Also, Crysis 2 Dx11 with HD texture pack does look pretty damn fantastic, but does not come close to Samaritan, let alone shit on it....

I can understand someone not agreeing with me on Crysis 2 looking better than Samaritan, but saying it doesn't come close. Crazy talk. Heck Samaritan character animation isn't the best thing in the world.

 

[BigTnaples]

Why cant Devs release Tech Demoes of Engine that are "playable"

....meaning a character or subject being controlled and affecting the environment in real time.

Demo your engine in practical gaming way.

They will be doing EXACTLY that at E3.


In fact most tech demos alow you to control and play with them in real time if you are at the event. We on the internet just get the "trailer" like versions however.

For example Samaritan was shown to the press and was shown from every angle, manipulated in Real Time, etc. But we only got one video of it, from one angle. Even though it looks great, it is harder to appreciate things that you would notice if you could manipulate it, for instance that reflections are real and not faked. Faked reflections can look great in a screen or trailer but look horrible once you interact with them. The illusion breaks down and the immersion is broken. However in the samaritan demo, you can look up close at any reflection, and it works as a reflection should.

 

[Lord Error]

Expected much better motion blur than that from UE4. That's really hacky looking.

 

[BigTnaples]

This looks great

but no, not even close to this.

Keep in mind the Samaritan screens are of a compressed youtube video...

 

[RoboPlato]

Expected much better motion blur than that from UE4. That's really hacky looking.

I thought the same but we'll have to see it in motion to see how it works in practice. Still, it has a lot of time to improve. UE3's motion blur got a lot better over time.

 

[BHK3]

I just want a unreal 4, do it epic, show off your tech with a Malcolm that makes Samaritan look like UE2.

 

[BigTnaples]

I just want a unreal 4, do it epic, show off your tech with a Malcolm that makes Samaritan look like UE2.

UT 4 would be awesome.

But I would rather see an Unreal 3, and have it be a complete reboot of the Unreal Franchise.

Who remembers how awesome escaping the prison ship in the first level was? So atmospheric.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Anyone who says the image above can be done on current gen hardware are complete batshit insane.

So you are saying it's a bullshot?

 

[BigTnaples]

So you are saying it's a bullshot?

He means console hardware obviosly. lol.

 

[KageMaru]

UT 4 would be awesome.

But I would rather see an Unreal 3, and have it be a complete reboot of the Unreal Franchise.




Who remembers how awesome escaping the prison ship in the first level was? So atmospheric.

Oh fuck yes to this. I like Gears but epic should have had PCF develop Unreal 3 for an early next Gen release IMO.

 

[SapientWolf]

I can understand someone not agreeing with me on Crysis 2 looking better than Samaritan, but saying it doesn't come close. Crazy talk. Heck Samaritan character animation isn't the best thing in the world.

An Epic employee got Cry 2 and Samaritan pics mixed up on their slides.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Did Epic ever reveal that PC exclusive they were talking about?

 

[Nizz]

Like better frame rate?

Please?

This. Please God, let there be at least rock solid 30fps with no dips next gen.

 

[computers putin']

Maybe so. It definitely doesn't look impressive though. It could just be that drab diablo-esque setting affecting me though.

I don't think it looks impressive either.

 

[Eusis]

This. Please God, let there be at least rock solid 30fps with no dips next gen.

I expect we'll still see dips, but I'd prefer it to be more like the PS2 was (if I'm remembering right anyway) in that only a small handful of games actually dropped below that on a frequent basis, and if they did it was usually for something ambitious, like Shadow of the Colossus.

Which is also part of why I feel like focusing on just the detail and effects can be missing the point. I don't care about the effects being more awesome but rather what kind of games can be done that simply couldn't be done before, at least not at a reasonable graphical fidelity.

 

[bgassassin]

An Epic employee got Cry 2 and Samaritan pics mixed up on their slides.

I think that was Tim Sweeney himself that did it.

 

[Jedi2016]

I think that was Tim Sweeney himself that did it.

Sweeny caught it during the presentation, but he wasn't the one that put the slides together.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I can understand someone not agreeing with me on Crysis 2 looking better than Samaritan, but saying it doesn't come close. Crazy talk. Heck Samaritan character animation isn't the best thing in the world.

Hes right...

 

[bgassassin]

Sweeny caught it during the presentation, but he wasn't the one that put the slides together.

This made it sound like it was Sweeney himself.


Scroll down to DCowley_Epic.

Hi guys, this is Dana from Epic. Tim wrote this note about his talk and asked me to post it:

I made a crazy error in the presentation slides accompanying my DICE 2012 talk, linked here:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/tim-sw ... 2-6350174/

While I was tweaking my presentation slides before the show, I used a Google search to find reduced-sized shots of Epic’s GDC 2011 Samaritan demo from the web. This was a bad idea! One of the images I chose for my talk isn’t actually from Samaritan; it’s a Crysis 2 DirectX 11 screenshot. In retrospect, I think I erroneously grabbed this shot from a comparison article,
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/28 ... re-already.

I apologize to the Crytek folks for misattributing the image in my talk. I should have carefully checked my slides (or the prescription for my glasses!). I hope everyone in the community can find the humor in this, and take my choice of this image as a compliment to Crytek’s graphics technology.

- Tim

 

[Oblivion]

Forgive the possibly stupid question, but what is the point of the Samaritan demo, if Epic was planning on revealing UE4 so soon after?

 

[Nirolak]

Forgive the possibly stupid question, but what is the point of the Samaritan demo, if Epic was planning on revealing UE4 so soon after?

Due to the costs of game development (and thus the audience side needed to recoup costs), the first year of next-gen will most likely consist heavily of cross generation Unreal Engine 3 titles, so Samaritan was them adding DirectX 11 functionality to the engine so the versions of cross generation games on next-gen consoles could try to scale up and look better.

We saw a bit of this last generation with games like Hitman: Blood Money that were on both PS2 and Xbox 360, but looked a fair bit better on 360.

Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand won't be able to run on 360/PS3.

 

[jet1911]

Forgive the possibly stupid question, but what is the point of the Samaritan demo, if Epic was planning on revealing UE4 so soon after?

To show that UE3 is still evolving/is still relevant. Not every devs going to jump on UE4 as soon as it's released.

 

[Oblivion]

Due to the costs of game development (and thus the audience side needed to recoup costs), the first year of next-gen will most likely consist heavily of cross generation Unreal Engine 3 titles, so Samaritan was them adding DirectX 11 functionality to the engine so the versions of cross generation games on next-gen consoles could try to scale up and look better.

We saw a bit of this last generation with games like Hitman: Blood Money that were on both PS2 and Xbox 360, but looked a fair bit better on 360.

Unreal Engine 4 on the other hand won't be able to run on 360/PS3.

Ah okay, that makes sense.

 

[Stallion Free]

I'm praying that this: "planning to release UE4 dev kit soon" means "we are releasing UDK 4.0 to the public before the end of 2012.