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Valve announces DotA 2
- Thread starter Archie
- Start date
Majority of custom games are DotA,JWong said:
just saying.
And, Guinsoo was the original creator of DotA, but what he did for the game compared to what Icefrog do was nothing. Foundation, thats all. And the community balancing comes with every game... Do we get credit, if say Blizzard is changing classes in WoW? No we don't, its all Blizzard taking credit. Saying the community contributed and it was their balancing is completely retarded.
And by community I mean EJ number crunching wizards.
Technosteve
Banned
fartcops is ode for episode 3
My god you really hate Hon.
Ever since dota became popular the idea of it having it's own game has just been sitting on the table. Dota was like a caged animal in the wc3 engine, the server browsing was horrible, leavers/feeders would go unpunished and the characters/spells simply didn't look great.
So then someone finally makes it, with the creator's blessing, with a heap of new heroes and a stable/well made engine that fixes all the originals problems.
What in the world is wrong with that?
Hon has a good strong competitive scene because the game is simply well made.
If you havent played any dota game in the past year how are you even qualified to comment on how good or bad a game is? you come across as extremely bitter.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Max said:
Its called parody bro.
I say the opposite with one of the points. Blizzard knows their art, and they know how to make their characters and spells stick out. After playing HoN for a while, I knew this was one of the issues that I had problems with. The characters and spells were hard to tell from each other. I would often lose my position in a big fight because the art style blends environment and characters together.Pikelet said:
After all that, it should be said that DotA has major issues that needed to be addressed. HoN never addressed them while LoL did.
Pikelet said:
Read all my posts and make an informed rebuttal. It's clear you don't understand my position against S2/HoN, which is succinctly stated in more than one place.
And the reason I feel I am qualified to comment is because I did play HoN up until the time they went out of beta and started making money off it. I know what the product was, and what it was not, when they felt they were justified in charging for it. Given the dearth of original content at that time I stand by my opinion.
I think this post is a good summary of what you think about hon. The problem with this is that it is factually inaccurate, as you don't appear to know what the word 'plagiarize' means. plagiarism would be if they released the same game (which they didn't, a large amount of the content is changed) without the author's permission (which they did get).
So you played the game when it was in beta and judged it based on that, even though there has been massive changes to it since then. you feel resentful towards the fact that they are charging for a version of a game that you used to get for free, despite the fact that the project could not have happened without financial backing.
your 'position' is just not really warranted, given the facts.
JWong said:
The summation of your post, I take it, is this: Icefrog is egomaniacal tyrant who doesn't give credit where it is due, and for that, I won't give him credit for steering Dota into what it became. Fair enough, I disagree with your position but I understand it. Icefrog was the mastermind behind Dota, he came up with the majority of the heroes, items, character bios, as well as hosting and keeping the game updated before the community could take root - and he was there throughout it maturing, too.
Feel free to enlighten me and apprise of some details I'm apparently unaware of, but I was there from (basically) the beginning too and saw what the game became. It went from not getting my attention at all to occupying all of it (almost) exclusively (as far as games are concerned) for a number of years. So that you truly feel it "never drastically changed or improved over the years" (really!?!) is quite perplexing to me. I guess me and the millions of others anxiously awaiting the next map update were just anticipating another minuscule, unobservable, inconsequential variation. I guess you're right, all those heroes and items weren't that big of a difference.
I realize the community has been a major player in forming the backbone of the game - I'm not denying that. Nor am I denying that Icefrog is, in all probability, a total asshole. Of course the community balanced the game. He gave credit to them in every changelog as I recall.
We'll never know how many copies of WC3 Dota sold/didn't sell. I was making a projection based on things I observed with my friends and other Dota addicts I chatted with on Bnet. I never said it kept WC3 successful. It undoubtedly made it more relevant than it would have been without it, that is all.
Pikelet said:
I am well aware of what "plagiarize" means. I failed to realize we were in a professional setting where others would take my meaning to be the technical definition, in which case, of course you are right and I am wrong. I now see the error of my ways.
Perhaps if you weren't being so dense (please tell me you aren't this dense), you would have realized "plagiarism" was hyperbole. Regarding which, someone later stated that they've added 20 some new characters to the existing (Dota) character pool, have improved Dota in a number of ways, to which I replied that was not innovation. This was my main beef with their product all along, that and they had the audacity to profit from it. Sorry, that to me is just a lack of integrity, and I choose not to support it. (It's safe to use the technical definition of integrity as ammunition against me in your next post, I intend the dictionary definition this time, just so there is no ambiguity). Just to be clear, there was no malicious intent. They had Icefrog's blessing. For all I know he was profiting from their profiting. All I know is that I wasn't about to reward them for digesting someone else's idea and vomiting it up for everyone else to consume as if they were the genius behind it. (Again, I'm not saying they maliciously tried to take credit for it, but they are reaping the benefits of its sale, no?)
This brings us to the crutch of the matter. You think they made substantive changes - I don't. You are happy and satisfied with what they did with the product - I thought it was fine but they weren't getting my money when not even half the content was original. I apparently have higher standards than you. I do things out of principle like refraining from buying Madden year after year after year even though I love the game of football. Maybe you do too. Well HoN was Madden for me, and I skipped that year.
Yes, I didn't like that they tried to profit from something the majority of which was clearly borrowed from someone else (notice how I'm not bitching about Demigod or LoL?). I don't have a problem paying to play Dota (or something Dota like) as per the implication of your post. I'm buying Dota 2 after all.
What were these "massive changes?" Does the HoN original content outweigh the Dota content yet?
For those curious about what Fart Cop might be like, there's a good site that is about a cop that has an axe and the drawings are of high level skill. http://axecop.com
From reading this webcomic, you'll get a basic idea of how Fart Cop might play out and how much awesomeness is involved.
From reading this webcomic, you'll get a basic idea of how Fart Cop might play out and how much awesomeness is involved.
Pinko Marx
Banned
PasteyMF said:
The blog post said Fart Corps.
Valve picked Icefrog because he was the current keeper of DotA and had done it for the longest period of time, making him the most qualified.
Just as he didn't invent DotA, the guys who created DotA were just cloning Aeon of Strife from Starcraft, taking advantage of the Warcraft 3 map editor enhancements. These ideas were all evolutionary, building upon past ones.
At this point DotA is a genre, and we should probably not consider the many games in the genre clones just as people stopped considering first person shooters Doom clones even though most of them had the same appearance and gameplay as Doom.
Just as he didn't invent DotA, the guys who created DotA were just cloning Aeon of Strife from Starcraft, taking advantage of the Warcraft 3 map editor enhancements. These ideas were all evolutionary, building upon past ones.
At this point DotA is a genre, and we should probably not consider the many games in the genre clones just as people stopped considering first person shooters Doom clones even though most of them had the same appearance and gameplay as Doom.
Archie said:
I don't know that it needs to be a major release like their narrative driven games (e.g. necessitating a holiday release). I think it will come in at a lower price point (~$30) and be expected to cash in on the competitive multiplayer gaming market. There are plenty of people who still don't even know what Dota is, so unless it is backed by a serious marketing campaign I don't see what a holiday release would do for its sales. I think it will mostly sell to the people who've already played and loved it, and those who've heard about others playing and loving it. I think they would greatly benefit from a free weekend or timed demo.
Oh, and since people have frequently commented about all the assholes in the Dota community. I just want to clear the air and say, though all my posts here have made sound like an asshole (I like to think others are bringing that out of me), I'm really very congenial to new players in Dota/Hon. I've never berated a feeder and I frequently stick up for others getting shit on by other assholes.
So please don't think me indicative of the user base given my comments here
.Zzoram said:
Agree completely. Thanks for the insights and reminding us about Aeon of Strife, I had completely forgotten about it. Also I haven't and will not refer to Demigod or LoL as Dota "clones." Only one game, in my opinion, deserves that (pejorative) moniker - the one that many are getting up in arms over me criticizing for its lack of ingenuity.
I wasn't thinking of it from a promotional perspective, but more of a "hey we want to make sure Portal 2 has its time to shine". And no, it is not going to be bundled with Portal 2 and Ep3 in the Fuschia Box.
Also, I think with the inclusion of the community features, Valve is going to try to appeal to the mass market. LoL's accessibility has done wonders for its popularity and Valve will obviously want a piece of that pie. I'm at least glad that it is keeping all the complex and convoluted bullshit I've come to love in HoN. I was deathly afraid that the game would be dumbed down.
I can't wait to finally try Invoker. :0
Also, I think with the inclusion of the community features, Valve is going to try to appeal to the mass market. LoL's accessibility has done wonders for its popularity and Valve will obviously want a piece of that pie. I'm at least glad that it is keeping all the complex and convoluted bullshit I've come to love in HoN. I was deathly afraid that the game would be dumbed down.
I can't wait to finally try Invoker. :0
They made some very specific comments about his commitment to keeping his content updated "with one hand tied behind his back". It wasn't just his "ownership" of the content but his general work ethic that attracted Valve to him I think.Zzoram said:
It's about time we came up with a name then.Zzoram said:
zombieshavebrains
I have not used cocaine
I see this as kinda splitting the DOTA community even more. I'm sure there will be those "hardcore" that still play WC3 DOTA, then there are the communities of HoN and LoL, now this? The Dota community(as a genre) isn't as big as the FPS community or probably even RTS. You can't say, "Yeah i remember owning noobs in the first FPS." like you can with Dota.
You can say "Well X game came out and didn't do Y" all you want. But probably the closest example of this is what happened with CS and DoD. Except those games were all ready on a Valve engine, valve hired them and the game stayed on the Valve engine. I'm sure Blizz had plenty of chances to say "Hey, come make a Dota game for us with our technology." But they were probably too busy with WoW to notice.
I don't know if IceFrog is going to retract his statement about still supporting the WC3 Dota but it seems like this is going to be a cashcow for him compared to the work he did on All-Stars. The All-starers are probably wondering if IceFrog wants them to move on to DOTA2.
You can say "Well X game came out and didn't do Y" all you want. But probably the closest example of this is what happened with CS and DoD. Except those games were all ready on a Valve engine, valve hired them and the game stayed on the Valve engine. I'm sure Blizz had plenty of chances to say "Hey, come make a Dota game for us with our technology." But they were probably too busy with WoW to notice.
I don't know if IceFrog is going to retract his statement about still supporting the WC3 Dota but it seems like this is going to be a cashcow for him compared to the work he did on All-Stars. The All-starers are probably wondering if IceFrog wants them to move on to DOTA2.
mjemirzian
Banned
With extra grinding, creeping, farming, and building to lengthen the game and induce xtreme nerd rage.Archie said:
I really think that both the HoN andWar3 community will move over to this. Some will probably stay at LoL because it is a bit more casual. I don't see why the HoN players would stay though. I suppose that some of the War3 guys wiill stay because of bad computers, but that's all that I can think of.zombieshavebrains said:
Jesus Christ:
- Aeons of Strife
- Tides of Blood
- League of Legends
- Defense of the Ancients
- Heroes of Newreth
This is just as bad as the time I came up with:
As Men at War in a World in Conflict, will you and your Brothers-in-Arms form a Company of Heroes answer the Call of Duty to prevent the Day of Defeat as you grasp the Hour of Victory to ultimately earn the Medal of Honor?
- Aeons of Strife
- Tides of Blood
- League of Legends
- Defense of the Ancients
- Heroes of Newreth
This is just as bad as the time I came up with:
As Men at War in a World in Conflict, will you and your Brothers-in-Arms form a Company of Heroes answer the Call of Duty to prevent the Day of Defeat as you grasp the Hour of Victory to ultimately earn the Medal of Honor?
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
His point was that people won't necessarily move over. Counter-Strike is a perfect example of that.Valru said:
Marshmellow
Member
arotator said:
Just thought id point out you arnt forging a very good argument with your facts. You say you havent played HoN for over a year but the game hasnt even been out of beta for 6 months yet. YET you played it up until the end of beta.
Also your main point against the copy paste of HoN is quite just, but IMO if s2 games are prepared to invest in it and provide servers and a decent structure for finding games and everything else they included as pikelet listed etc. then they can justify in every right charging a MEASLY 30 bucks for the game which i was more than happy to part with for the service they offered.
Alright, my last post on the matter:
I knew what i was getting into with Hon, they were giving me exactly what i (and a large chunk of community) wanted and they never made it out to be anything other than what it was. It's fine that you don't like that, i just think you are being too harsh on the game and the people who worked on it.
but whatever, hopefully this game has some innovations because i honestly think that Hon is a good enough 'clone' that we don't need another one.
Marshmellow said:
Fair enough, it was the principle of the matter, not the amount of money they charged. Your second paragraph is definitely worth taking into consideration.
I was being loose when I said I hadn't played in over a year. The last time I invested much time in HoN was Christmas break 2009. That isn't quite a year ago (but it wasn't 2010 either). I did play a bit right before the beta ended to see if it was worth buying, but not much. The point still stands, aside from the network infrastructure and some prettier character models, that game is more Dota than it is something different. That mattered more to me than it did to you.