Lies.
Valve is the greatest thing ever happened to the game industry. They know no wrong. They are always right.
Many valve followers literally can, and willing to sacrifice their first born for the just glimpse of Gabe Newell.
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Valve is blocking publishers from helping indies bypass Steam Greenlight
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Lies.
Valve is the greatest thing ever happened to the game industry. They know no wrong. They are always right.
Many valve followers literally can, and willing to sacrifice their first born for the just glimpse of Gabe Newell.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Valve is becoming the walled garden company it claims Apple and Microsoft are already.
Was only a matter of time.
Isnt that what Steam is by design?
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Isnt that what Steam is by design?
Well aren't 99% of stores walled gardens? I was pissed when Walmart kicked me out for trying to sell my custom hand made jeans standing in between clothes racks.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
They still accept games that never go on Greenlight. GL is basically where the rejected games get a second chance.How To Fix Greenlight
1) Look at the top twenty right now, and approve them immediately. Shut down Greenlight.
2) Is it available on GOG? Approve it.
3) Is it available on consoles (excluding Xbox Indies. There's enough junk on there to put on exception for it.)? Approve it.
4) (in case of iOS port) Has Apple ever given it free advertising? If so, approve it.
5) Open Steamworks API to everyone who paid the Greenlight fee, introduce a widget whereby it can be implemented easily on a developer's site, handle payment through Steam's servers and output a Steam key/instant addition to a Steam account, while Valve carries on creaming off 20% on top (less because it's not on Steampowered.com). Rebrand the Greenlight fee as "Steamworks access fee" and start keeping the money.
6) Use the widget data to invite the most successful games onto Steam proper, while the less successful games still get the money from the "no Steam no sale" guys. Everyone's a winner.
7) Oh, and start manually accepting games again, although most will probably be satisfied with step 5.
The core problem is Valve's curation process. They're passing up too many games that are clearly deserving of a Steam release on the front page, like the XBLA ports you mentioned. That source of friction will never go away as long as Steam is curated and people have different opinions on what should and shouldn't make it on the platform. GL is just the scapegoat. An XBLIG style cache of uncurated games isn't exactly a ticket to success for indie devs so the open API doesn't solve the problem either.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
It's still the same issue as the voting system. You create an environment where the most popular games are thriving and the simple act of getting your game in a store requires a boatload of marketing.
I can't figure out why Valve isn't changing Greenlight. It's bottlenecking Steam and is just a mess.
The difference is that the games would still be available though steam (albeit though a second storefront), and having a set sales goal would improve things greatly, rather than the way voting is balanced now where it's the amount of votes per month rather than overall (so the longer you're on greenlight before getting greenlit, the less chance there is of it ever happening).
Also, there's a big difference between voting for something, and actually buying it.
Kasumi1970
my name is Ted
by this it sound like Valve becoming like MS LOL
How to fix Greenlight:How To Fix Greenlight
1) Look at the top twenty right now, and approve them immediately. Shut down Greenlight.
2) Is it available on GOG? Approve it.
3) Is it available on consoles (excluding Xbox Indies. There's enough junk on there to put on exception for it.)? Approve it.
4) (in case of iOS port) Has Apple ever given it free advertising? If so, approve it.
5) Open Steamworks API to everyone who paid the Greenlight fee, introduce a widget whereby it can be implemented easily on a developer's site, handle payment through Steam's servers and output a Steam key/instant addition to a Steam account, while Valve carries on creaming off 20% on top (less because it's not on Steampowered.com). Rebrand the Greenlight fee as "Steamworks access fee" and start keeping the money.
6) Use the widget data to invite the most successful games onto Steam proper, while the less successful games still get the money from the "no Steam no sale" guys. Everyone's a winner.
7) Oh, and start manually accepting games again, although most will probably be satisfied with step 5.
1.) Hire a fucking certification team.
2.) Dismantle Greenlight.
Between greenlight and their horrible customer support, I havnt bought a game from steam in a long time. It is sad, because I have close to 200 games on steam, but I just cant support them anymore. I still dont have my Borderlands 2 season pass working because their support continually gives me a non answer.
scytheavatar
Member
By far the worst aspect of Greenlight is that some indie developers/publishers with an existing presence on Steam have been forced to go through the process, which is patently stupid.
Does having an existing presence on Steam means much? You could have made a crap game which sold badly, or you could have made a successful one but that doesn't mean your next game can't be crap.
How to fix Greenlight:
1.) Hire a fucking certification team.
2.) Dismantle Greenlight.
And then what? People will complain that X game didnt pass through even through its a good game and blablabla. Steam cannot have 50 release a day. They cannot. They have to space out the release or the value of the games decrease and they cant do good ads about it. A game should stay at least one week on the "New Release" list.
Its not a quality problem, its a quantity problem. Now, the most popular game get out of greenlight and people BUY the popular game. Why should Steam care about good games if they dont sell? Give the people what they want.
This is borderline delusional. Valve is having growing pains with Greenlight - but it is still the number one platform for indie games by a country mile. Sony has done a fantastic job marketing their darlings - but their selection is barely a drop in the hat compared to what Valve offers, and their prices are still noticeably worse.
I partly agree. Sony and Nintendo are making great decisions in regards to indies, but not quite enough time has passed yet for the fruits of those decisions to really pan out.
They still accept games that never go on Greenlight. GL is basically where the rejected games get a second chance.
The core problem is Valve's curation process. They're passing up too many games that are clearly deserving of a Steam release on the front page, like the XBLA ports you mentioned. That source of friction will never go away as long as Steam is curated and people have different opinions on what should and shouldn't make it on the platform. GL is just the scapegoat. An XBLIG style cache of uncurated games isn't exactly a ticket to success for indie devs so the open API doesn't solve the problem either.
This right here. The way Valve is structured and how they hire people doesn't seem to take into account the need to hire a dedicated certification team like other platform holders have.
I hear Gabe's next idea is to basically make the Steam API much easier to access for everyone, but they're still trying to work out a balance between that and the chaos you see on iOS.
Delusibeta
Banned
An XBLIG style cache of uncurated games isn't exactly a ticket to success for indie devs so the open API doesn't solve the problem either.
Tell that to the Humble Bundle guys.
That's also why I specified a widget, so companies will still have to market their game on their own websites, and honestly it becomes no different than indie games outside of Steam in terms of crap to gem ratio. Except this time they paid $100 for the privilege of Steamworks support and the ability to sell Steam keys (despite not being on Steampowereddotcom).
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
No.Well aren't 99% of stores walled gardens?
Does having an existing presence on Steam means much?
Sure: it means you've been approved in the past, which is the point.
You could have made a crap game which sold badly, or you could have made a successful one but that doesn't mean your next game can't be crap.
Valve isn't exactly in the business of preventing "crap" games from releasing on Steam.
Man, Greenlight just getting worse and worse. How was Fez able to bypass this then? Was it before this new change was implemented?
Some games can. Didn't see Angry Birds Space there either before it went up. Somehow I think they'll let games bypass the system which they think will lift the platform in general.
What a ridiculous system.
Delusibeta
Banned
In the case of stores that sell digitally distributed PC games, the answer is (generally speaking) yes. Except for Desura and Gamersgate, those are fairly open. Good luck getting your game on GOG, however.
scytheavatar
Member
Sure: it means you've been approved in the past, which is the point.
And why does being approved in the past mean you should get a free pass for your future games? When there's no guarantee that your other games won't be crap?
Valve isn't exactly in the business of preventing "crap" games from releasing on Steam.
They have to put up the gate for the simple reason that their resources are limited, downloading bandwidth isn't free or cheap, the admin of adding games to Steam isn't free and they don't have the luxury to have their store filled with crap that no one wants to buy.
There's no guarantee any future game, Greenlight, Certification Board, or Sight Unseen, won't be crap.And why does being approved in the past mean you should get a free pass for your future games? When there's no guarantee that your other games won't be crap?
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
What is a walled garden to you then?
And why does being approved in the past mean you should get a free pass for your future games?
I see no reason why you shouldn't. At the very least it'd slightly lessen the congestion on Greenlight.
When there's no guarantee that your other games won't be crap?
Again, there are plenty of "crap games" on Steam already. Your implied fear that a "free pass" will result in a larger deluge of such games is unfounded.
Edit:
They have to put up the gate for the simple reason that their resources are limited, downloading bandwidth isn't free or cheap, the admin of adding games to Steam isn't free and they don't have the luxury to have their store filled with crap that no one wants to buy.
As I said, SCS releasing the original Euro Truck Sim through the regular channel implies that greenlit developers can leave the system behind them. If greenlit developers are given a "free pass", this same courtesy not being extended to those who Valve itself approved in the past is ridiculous.
And then what? People will complain that X game didnt pass through even through its a good game and blablabla. Steam cannot have 50 release a day. They cannot. They have to space out the release or the value of the games decrease and they cant do good ads about it. A game should stay at least one week on the "New Release" list.
Its not a quality problem, its a quantity problem. Now, the most popular game get out of greenlight and people BUY the popular game. Why should Steam care about good games if they dont sell? Give the people what they want.
That's a really cynical and awful way to look at gaming. Curating content based just on popularity is an assured way to limit creativity. Especially when Steam is one of the biggest market for digital and PC games.
Who were the publishers? was it EA and UBI or his Aunt and Grandpa?
I doubt it was EA as the EA Partners program is on its deathbed.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
But seriously guys what is the number of indie games that should be added to Steam each month? 26 in April isn't enough?
Horrible if true. Valve is not always the great company everyone makes them out to be.
I think that they're starting to become arrogant or something.
GillianSeed79
Member
How to fix Greenlight:
1.) Hire a fucking certification team.
2.) Dismantle Greenlight.
This. I'm a relatively new user of Steam, but Greenlight is a fucking cluster fuck. To be fair, it kind of sheds light on how many game submissions Steam probably got pre-Greenlight, but don't just throw your hands up and let random people in the community decide. Greenlight should be for indies that have actually gone through some vetting. I'll give the Greenlight submissions credit in that they usually have a better pitch and are not the junk you usually see on XBLA Indie, which is usually a combination of the latest Minecraft ripoff, screen savers, games with zombies in the title and vaguely sexually sugggestive stuff I'd be embarrassed to play at a stripclub while waiting in line for a beer.
Why not have like a partnership with Kickstarter? You know, something like every funded game automatically gets on Steam. Why is shit like Papers Please not on Steam? I have a job for fucks sake. I can't data mine Steam Greenlight everyday for games that I'd like to upvote.
I'd say hire a team maybe, but then again they'd be forced to sift through countless game submissions. The arbitrary Greenlight stuff is what is wrong. If a game is generally well regarded or, you know, actually released on other digital distribution platforms like GOG it should immediately be put on Steam. None of this you have to pass the trial of Steam users that actually view and vote on Greenlight. It's kind of bullshit tbqh.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
What is a walled garden to you then?
The standard definition. Not the one that includes 99% of all stores including Walmart.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
The standard definition. Not the one that includes 99% of all stores including Walmart.
So what are some non-walled gaming garden distribution platforms?
That's a really cynical and awful way to look at gaming. Curating content based just on popularity is an assured way to limit creativity. Especially when Steam is one of the biggest market for digital and PC games.
Except that once you are in the door you can get a game on steam without going through Greenlight. If people want your games, then you are published, and if Steam see that you sell a lot of games, well you dont have to go through Greenlight.
So Greenlight can filter itself while the curator curate the other new games.
And really, through Greenlight so far, we got a lot of weird stuff already.
A whole lot of Adventure game, platformers, Shooters, Strategy games, RTS action, MOBA, Sidescrollers. So really what is the problem with Greenlight? Its not like 20 of the games were FPS or RTS or what ever. We have many different type of games released or greenlighted.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...ending§ion=items&browsefilter=pending&p=1
can someone explain how this is a bad thing? if a publisher backs a product like this to push it past Greenlight, wouldn't that be a loop hole? why should major publishers be able to serve as a gateway and push whatever they want onto Steam? that sounds more like a way to exploit small developers to me
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
So what are some non-walled gaming garden distribution platforms?
Your quote earlier
"Well aren't 99% of stores walled gardens? I was pissed when Walmart kicked me out for trying to sell my custom hand made jeans standing in between clothes racks."
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Your quote earlier
"Well aren't 99% of stores walled gardens? I was pissed when Walmart kicked me out for trying to sell my custom hand made jeans standing in between clothes racks."
So what platforms do you feel comfortable buy PC games on?
GoofsterStud
Member
This is crap beyond crap.
>.> Valve, don't make me boycott you again. :-(
>.> Valve, don't make me boycott you again. :-(
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
This is crap beyond crap.
>.> Valve, don't make me boycott you again. :-(
I'm still boycotting them for L4D2, standing strong.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
So what platforms do you feel comfortable buy PC games on?
Windows.
5) Open Steamworks API to everyone who paid the Greenlight fee, introduce a widget whereby it can be implemented easily on a developer's site, handle payment through Steam's servers and output a Steam key/instant addition to a Steam account, while Valve carries on creaming off 20% on top (less because it's not on Steampowered.com). Rebrand the Greenlight fee as "Steamworks access fee" and start keeping the money.
6) Use the widget data to invite the most successful games onto Steam proper, while the less successful games still get the money from the "no Steam no sale" guys. Everyone's a winner.
7) Oh, and start manually accepting games again, although most will probably be satisfied with step 5.
I like this a lot.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Windows.
I'm shocked you didn't try to actually go for street cred with your clever response by saying Linux.
nephilimdj
Member
can someone explain how this is a bad thing? if a publisher backs a product like this to push it past Greenlight, wouldn't that be a loop hole? why should major publishers be able to serve as a gateway and push whatever they want onto Steam? that sounds more like a way to exploit small developers to me
Recently noticed tons of steam games have been making there way into retail, its not just cult hits like binding of isaac, I saw hegemony and a few others I own.
These are self published games, making there way into budget publishers for the Euro market.
Blocking the system from going the other way makes no sense.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Real competition at this point is pretty much an impossibility. People are already locked in with their libraries. The only hope for such a thing is for more publishers to follow EAs lead and make their games exclusive to their own platforms.Too bad for them, but at least more people are starting to notice Steam isn't and has never been an open platform. Maybe we can get a bit of more competition to Steam then.
alexandros
Banned
The bottom line is, as long as there are any games that don't get on Steam, the system will be a "failure."
Pretty much, although Greenlight doesn't really solve much. The previous way of greenlighting games for Steam release (send email to Valve -> Yay, you're in, or "not a good fit") was also highly criticized because quite a few quality games, even ones successful on other platforms, couldn't get on Steam. Greenlight appeared as a means of taking some of that veto power away from Valve, but it's again highly criticized because quality games are being left out. As Htown said, I have a hard time coming up with a system that is still curated (so as to leave out the crap) but doesn't let everyone in. If you do let every not-crap game in, then you open the "discoverability" can of worms where quality titles are drowned out by a sea of mediocre offerings.
So what's the solution? I honestly don't know. I have voted on every game on Steam Greenlight and I maintain a reasonably popular recommendations list on the service. Through this process, I have discovered and bought quite a few quality games than I previously hadn't even heard about, so one could argue that Greenlight does at least provide some form of exposure. I also think that some of the games that got Greenlit would have never made it through Valve's old approval process, so Greenlight does have some positive aspects to it.
Here's the problem though: I'm a core gamer, a devoted PC user who actively keeps up with industry news and new game releases, I shop from multiple digital game stores and even I had no idea that some of these quality games existed before they were put up on Greenlight. So for the average user, it's safe to assume that if a game is not on Steam it doesn't exist. That is a huge problem and the more it is allowed to happen, the more indie devs will flock on Steam and get inevitabely frustrated because they can't get in.
Maybe the decoupling of Steamworks from the Steam storefront will encourage people to shop around as everyone will be offering Steam keys, who knows. I assume that in that case Valve will collect a fee from everyone who chooses to use the Steam API but honestly, I just see history repeating itself. Some stores will rise to the top in popularity, everyone will want to sell through them, they won't be able to get in and they'll protest. I really can't see any way out of this loop.
I submitted a game to GOG last year. I got a reply from one of the people there, and they told me my game wasn't a good fit for the audience they're targeting, that their release schedule was already very packed for the date I was targeting, and wished me good luck in the future. That was that. No hard feelings, I knew why they rejected my game, and I plan to submit more games to them in the future.
With Steam, before Greenlight I submitted a game and they told me it wouldn't be accepted on Steam and it is against their policy to further elaborate. I submitted two more times after my game got a bit more popular, both with the same boilerplate rejection notice. Now I have to get over thirty thousand people to tell me they like my game before Valve even glances in my direction.
It is not hard to fix this problem. It was never hard. Yet they've managed to turn it into the worst service submission process I have ever seen.
Which reminds I've yet to buy Cook, Serve, Delicious! I'm sorry chubi! Will definitely do it this week, I love me some Ore No Ryouri-kind of fun.
1. Become approved dev
2. Make game
3. Get game approved
NOPE.
Concept approval is another thing that NOA has done away with. So long as your game has an M rating or lower and it can pass certification you're all set.
There's too much trash to wade through. I wait for gaming websites to point out the good ones, like Papers Please and Divekick.I don't even look at Greenlight on Steam. I don't want to weed through all the random games that get put on there for voting. Do a lot of people check Greenlight often to vote for games they may like?
Valve is becoming the walled garden company it claims Apple and Microsoft are already.
Was only a matter of time.
basically this
Next Gen the consoles are going to have more inclusive indie support than Steam, EVEN MS if they utilize the Windows 8 integration for the app store (they seem pretty lax on letting apps through). Times change.
It's a terrible service with a terrible self modded community who have this power to literally stop you ever selling your game and trying to make a little return with sales.
Come on now. There is literally more to PC gaming than just Steam.
Yet when people gush over Steam they always act like Greenlight is perfect.
This thread alone is evidence to the contrary.