Beermeister
Banned
The final retail version will be borked, confirmed.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Valve reveals specs for prototype Steam Machines.
- Thread starter Silky
- Start date
The final retail version will be borked, confirmed.
Dreams-Visions
Member
You think Valve is paying consumer prices?
Motley Grue
Banned
Why the flying hell aren't AMD GPUs in it?!? You'd think with Mantle completely obliterating the need for DirectX... AND with the AMD GPUs in all the next gen consoles, that AMD would be the perfect fit for SteamOS and SteamBox.
Valve clearly have not thought this through very well.
Valve clearly have not thought this through very well.
Someone else told me AMD's Linux drivers are crap. That might explain why. Plus who knows, Nvidia might have their own technology to counter Mantle.
charlequin
Banned
Right, because there isn't actually any good option available for the people who might otherwise be interested. I work in technology, and I built my new system (which ran me about $1500 total) but I didn't really want to, and even with how easy it's gotten these days it was still much more of a pain than I wanted it to be. I don't want to pay giant margins for systems with chintzy cases and preloaded crap, but if I could get a well-thought-out gaming machine at a decent price, that's mass-produced so I can feel safe about the hardware interactions and I know a lot of devs are going to test on it or something like it, I would definitely do that next time.
Because they're not aiming for the console market.
Sentenza
Member
Most likely because:
1) Nvidia has better GPUs.
2) Nvidia has better Linux drivers.
3) Valve has an agreement with Nvidia.
charlequin
Banned
Valve makes money by selling people games on Steam.
Steam is getting more and more popular, but PCs are getting squeezed more and more by other markets and by strategic incoherence on the part of Windows.
Valve's goal is to make sure Steam is able to keep getting more popular even as PCs (in a vacuum) decline.
One way to do this is to make Steam compatible with other computer OSes that already exist; that's why Valve created Steamplay and released Mac/Linux clients.
Another way to do this is to create their own gaming-oriented OS and encourage more and more ports to it; that's why Valve created SteamOS and is pushing for Linux ports from major developers.
Another way to do this is to make it easier to play games on the couch/TV so people don't feel compelled to sit at their desk when they play PC games; that's why Valve created the Steam Controller and Big Picture mode.
Yet another way to do this is to make it easier to buy PC gaming hardware at a reasonable price without having to know much about computers; that's why Valve created Steam Machines and is working with manufacturers to make them efficient and effective.
The common denominator of all these efforts is that they answer the questions of people who don't already use Steam. If someone says "well I'd get into PC gaming but it's too expensive/obnoxious to build a box," you tell them to buy a Steam Machine. If someone says "lol comfy couch," you hand them a Steam Controller. If someone wants to play indie games on a miniature HTPC streaming box, you point them to SteamOS. And so on.
I think you've hit the nail on the head mostly. My only wonder about it going android style is how you can enable manufacturers to differentiate their product. For example, a company that would love to be the centre of the living room, samsung, could make a "galaxy s machine" but if they differentiate through their own interface and bloatware as in android, it would damage the performance gains and return you to the same old pc manufacture shit you see in the windows world. Unless they have a specific app or section closed away from the core interface and system, i'm not clear on how differentiation works other than on a hardware level, such as windows phone.
But yes absolutely right about valve's early adopters.
Gabe said it himself - "The internet is super smart. If you do something that is cool, that's actually worth people's time, then they'll adopt it. If you do something that's not cool and sucks, you can spend as many marketing dollars as you want, [they] just won't."
angular graphics
Banned
Well..
For one AMD's drivers are not as good as nvidia's in Linux / OpenGL so they are out of the question, for now.
Secondly you have to realize Valve (probably) wouldn't be aware of Mantle's existence any earlier than you were, so how the hell could they have thought of such a thing?
Thirdly, this is just a prototype. And a Valve prototype at that. There will be many different setups from many different retailers when the time comes.
GeForce Experience could be a reason too.
The whole Mantle thing is just trading one master, Microsoft, for another. SteamOS is about getting gaming to more neutral ground, for the sake of progress.
angular graphics
Banned
I very much agree with that. In fact if I had to choose between DX and Mantle, I would choose DX.
Ask that question again in about 4 years, when the price of an on par steam machine is cheaper than ps4/xboxone could be reduced to to allow sony and microsoft to keep those oh so cushiony profits.
Similarly I imagine for the same price as a ps4/xboxone, a steam machine would be superior, and I'd hope it has a sizeable library of AAA games that console gamers crave
This post should be the official gaf response when someone posts that they don't get the steam box or steam os.
Glorified G
Member
Especially with a 450w PSU.
I'm pretty surprised they would include such high end components in this, I figured it would be all mid to low end stuff to see how SteamOS/Linux Games run on low end hardware.
Now I look forward to the whining from folks who get a i3 prototype knowing they could have got a i7/Titan one.
CrunchyFrog
Member
It just seems like making PC gaming even more a Valve monopoly.
If I have to read "I don't know who this is made for one more time, I'm going to lose it.
Where do you people live that everyone
a) builds PCs
b) researches and keeps up on parts
c) wants the headache of building/installing/updating a PC
Hell if it wasn't for Hazaro and MKenyon, a good portion of you either wouldn't be interested in PC gaming or would be scratching your head forever. And they're like super duper pros at this stuff.
I've been building PC's since 1988 and even I was lost because my last custom build was in 2004.
How do you think it is for the average joe who has like one game on Steam running off an old laptop?
Where do you people live that everyone
a) builds PCs
b) researches and keeps up on parts
c) wants the headache of building/installing/updating a PC
Hell if it wasn't for Hazaro and MKenyon, a good portion of you either wouldn't be interested in PC gaming or would be scratching your head forever. And they're like super duper pros at this stuff.
I've been building PC's since 1988 and even I was lost because my last custom build was in 2004.
How do you think it is for the average joe who has like one game on Steam running off an old laptop?
So Valve are testing multiple box configurations - interesting, looks like they really are considering a broad range of appeal from entry level to enthusiast.
Very interested to see pricing. I'm wondering if they will take a loss to make price compelling and look to make it back on SW in similar vein to consoles to aim to sell at cost/small margin and trust to different cost tiers to give enough appeal or some mix of the two?
This whole play is starting to look very, very interesting.
Very interested to see pricing. I'm wondering if they will take a loss to make price compelling and look to make it back on SW in similar vein to consoles to aim to sell at cost/small margin and trust to different cost tiers to give enough appeal or some mix of the two?
This whole play is starting to look very, very interesting.
That's my big worry, too. Touchwiz on a Steam Machine. Eurgh. I can't think of many things worse than that. I think Valve is smart enough to have learned from Google's mistakes, though. I'm sure they'll have a solution to that problem (or at least, I hope so..).
And that's a really great quote. I hadn't seen it before. Very insightful.
SteamOS is fundamentally open. It's an initiative to get more gaming on Linux. No one can have a monopoly over Linux. There's nothing stopping EA from creating their own OriginOS, for example, and reaping a lot of the benefit from what Valve is throwing their weight behind.
It's 100% about getting away from a spiraling, desperate Microsoft.
If Valve sold the computers for cheaper than you could buy them at Newegg or whatever, wouldn't people just sell the parts separately for money? I can't imagine getting a PC pre-built for cheaper than somebody could build. I guess this could work if for some reason those parts only worked in Steam boxes. I'm interested to see how this all works in the final product since this is a prototype with off-the-shelf parts.
charlequin
Banned
This is an important point. As it is now, prebuilt systems (putting the unique Apple situation here) are a huge waste of money because of the size of the margin; you're not getting any real custom engineering to improve size, power consumption, noise, or reliability, but you're still paying a huge markup on the parts. Even for people whose time is valuable, putting together your own PC is often more reasonable than paying that kind of markup.
The cross-promotional arrangements with Steam could help change that. An OEM that can pick out three models for a year and mass-produce them, and then rely on the enormous Steam marketplace to drive sales by pushing users directly to their storefront, could make good margins and do some volume while still pricing reasonably.
How, exactly? You can install Windows on a Steam Machine. If Ubi and EA put out Linux clients you can put Origin and uPlay on and run them in SteamOS. You can certainly run SteamOS, install DRM-free games from the Humble store, and enjoy the benefits of improved Linux drivers without even opening up Steam.
sublime085
Member
Dear lord, if I got in on this beta my head would explode.
This stands out the most to me about what we can expect from the Steam OS interms of performance. I strongly suspect now that Valve specifically has RAM Drive software in their OS so you can use your RAM as your storage device. That's why the RAM is so high and the SSD storage is so low.
I've been debating the merits of this setup myself for years but RAM is volatile so it can be lost easily during even a brown out. RAM that have built in capacitors so your data is stored while your machine is off cost like 1k per gig.
Ha I didn't notice that.
This Chassis is going to be extremely sexy. I'm going to be jealous of whoever gets their hands on this relatively tiny box if this is using an ATX motherboard.
If it is PSU made by Enermax or Seasonic don't be surprised if this is a PSU that can punch above its labelled wattage rating.
This machine is using only a single GPU which are very power efficient compared to several years ago. Also the GPUs mentioned except for the 600 series use tech that allows the GPU to be throttled to prevent it from going over a temperature threshold and instead of just flat out crashing.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
In the hypothetical event that the hardware does end up cheaper in a steam machine, my guess is itd be tough for a person to sell a used titan for 50 bucks cheaper than retail. Plus then youd have the rest of the hardware and the case to sell off. So I wouldn't think that would be too big a problem.
Mantle is open source....... Just like SteamOS.
dragonelite
Member
Hope they can make it compatible with X1 and ps4 controller. Seems really interesting at least valve seems to take specs serious. But these are the high end machines pretty cool from valve to give them away.
Open Standard != Open Source
Open Standard != Open Source
Nothing is preventing anyone else from competing with Valve on Steam though. On Windows or even SteamOS. The problem is, nobody is and the attempts by GFWL, Origin and Impulse have been pretty pathetic. Impulse was doing alright I think until bought by Gamestop, at least I was using them.
I wonder how much EA moving strictly to releasing Origin is hurting them, or if at all. I do not buy Origin games, or any game that requires a publisher specific account. But that is more to do with trust, I trust Steam/Valve and not them.
That makes sense. It's an exciting prospect. At the very least they can sell their pre-built machines cheaper than anybody else because they will make money on the software like console makers.
Mantle is an API beholden to the interests of a corporation. It's proprietary right now, and AMD is already wielding it like a weapon against Nvidia. OpenGL is just... open. It wouldn't make sense to place Valve's eggs in a basket with AMD at this point. Valve wants gaming to be on neutral ground, because only there will it be (more) free to prosper independent of guiding influences.
Mutanthands
Member
No way, has to be a Mini ITX board at that size. All you need is a PCI x 16 slot, anything more is just wasted space.
Pretty close.
Titan is still just Kepler, and it already smokes the consoles. So Nvidia will move forward with Maxwell for the PC enthusiasts while it watches the cost of manufacturing Kepler drop. A Titan or equivalent will be half as expensive to manufacture soon enough. The beauty here is that Steam Machines can reap the benefits of cost/power dropping while the consoles are stuck at a fixed point.
absolutely nothing, go for it
Nothing, thats the point.
As soon as you put steamOS on there, even if it's dual boot with Windows, you have yourself a Steam Machine!
SteamOS is about moving people to Linux, an ecosystem that is 100% open. Mantle is about getting people to use AMD's proprietary API.
opticalmace
Member
Nothing, if you're inclined to do so. Many people aren't, though.
But this goes completely against the ethos of what it means to be a PC gamer.
What I suspect Valve is trying to do for the customer you are talking about is removing the worry that after downloading or inserting their disc they find out the game doesn't work on their machine or is plagued by bugs.
Steam boxes are going to take away the stability problems that plagues PC gaming, not the ability to spend what you want for the performance you desire.
It is definitely not a MiniITX board because the beta machines Valve are working on are upgradeable in how PC users expect to be able to upgrade. That means being able to add multiple graphics cards or PCIE SSDs is a requirement.
At a minimum it is a mATX board but that is doubtful.
8bitForLife
Member
I basically have a steam box now but with better ram and more hd space. Just give me a super long hdmi cord and i can game from my room to the tv in the family room.
For 300 boxes? Absolutely (or near enough to it).
Even the highest volume Steam Machine maker is going to be making systems numbered in the thousands. That's not going to be enough volume to get anything but the slightest discount on components. Sony and Microsoft make their consoles by the millions, which is the kind of volume you have to sell to start to get real, meaningful component discounts.
Unless Valve or one of the Steam Machine makers is willing to take a massive loss to get their systems into people's houses, these ultra small, well-specced systems are going to result in $1500 Steam Boxes, not $500 'everyman' consoles (contrary to popular belief, a GPU and CPU do not alone make a PC, and the specialized mini-chassis that Valve's using is going to result in more expensive power supplies and cooling as well, not to mention the cost of a controller...) Putting a Core i7 and a Titan into such a small enclosure is a feat of engineering, but it's not going to convince console buyers to put a Steam Machine in their living room. Only aggressive pricing can do that.