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[EvB]

Yeah that would be great if they did. I'm interested in an all inclusive bundle. But we will see if that is possible.

These things are too engrained into the code to be changed easily I'd of throught. There must be a reason why the OG xbox's emulation didn't offer any improvement and the same for the Wii/Wii-U when playing older titles.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Really? I may look into it for my own home network.

What Jeff is saying is that they won't ship the new Xbox mini with an HDD and will instead rely on the user to provide their own external network storage.
Could you expect the same level of performance that you describe if it was being networked through your typical low quality free ISP router and off the shelf NAS device and not through a professionally designed business network?

Do you understand that you can buy an Xbox 360 right now and download Halo 4 from the marketplace to a cheap consumer 5400rpm external USB hard drive and it will play perfectly? You are limited to a 32GB partition but it works, and faster than the flash drives.

http://kotaku.com/5513406/your-guide-to-xbox-360-usb-drives

So they aren't adding anything new (other than, I'm sure, support for larger partition sizes).

 

[EvB]

Do you understand that you can buy an Xbox 360 right now and download Halo 4 from the marketplace to a cheap consumer 5400rpm external USB hard drive and it will play perfectly? You are limited to a 32GB partition but it works, and faster than the flash drives.

http://kotaku.com/5513406/your-guide-to-xbox-360-usb-drives

So they aren't adding anything new (other than, I'm sure, support for larger partition sizes).

Yes, I am quite aware of that, if you put that Hard Drive on the other side of a cheap network router would it work as well as if it were connected directly to a machine?

 

[Beer Monkey]

Yes, I am quite aware of that, if you put that Hard Drive on the other side of a cheap network router would it work as well as if it were connected directly to a machine?

You could certainly fuck things up with networking problems. I would never expect that this hypothetical Durango and Mini would communicate over LAN or WLAN. I would expect a direct proprietary interface.

 

[airmangataosenai]

Well if it's true we certainly dodged a bullet.

 

[Liabe Brave]

If the Mini + Durango set up can somehow enhance the games even a tiny bit then I'll be playing my backlogue even more during those slow months after Durango's launch.

Depends on what you mean by "a tiny bit". The rumor says that Durango reads the disc and its own controllers, and sends that data to the mini360 for processing. If the idea is for Durango to add polygons, particles, better textures, extra resolution, or anything along those lines, then mini360 would have to send a thick stream of unresolved rendering data back to the Durango GPU. Even if this info could pass between the two machines at the required speed--and I'm not sure it could--such a "dual asymmetric GPU" setup would be an incredible hassle to manage.

Rather, I very strongly suspect that mini360 will just send a video signal back to Durango via HDMI, exactly as if it were outputting to a TV. It's cheaper, far simpler, and doesn't have much potential to introduce lag. However, it means a lot less can be done to improve the image. Post-process AA is really about it, but I doubt even this will happen. You can't just add it to everything, because that'd make games which already have it even blurrier. Case-by-case game profiles increase complexity again.

But post-process AA is probably the only thing that even might happen. I'd be very shocked if there were any other type of improvement.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Well if it's true we certainly dodged a bullet.

I do hope so.

 

[Satchel]

Where are we hearing that the mini won't have storage?

that would fucking suuuuuck.

Or is thus a case of trying to turn a positive into a negative?

 

[Penguins&PolarBears]

The mini sounds awesome but if they really want to compete with apple tv they have to get rid of the gold paywall for stuff like youtube and internet explorer.

I'm sorry, does Apple TV come with a game controller and ability to play AAA console games?

The main attraction here is not IE and YouTube. They will keep the paywall because it's the only thing that makes financial sense. MS has no interest in sending ad traffic to YouTube at their expense. However MS will probably make Xbox Live Gold include multiple family members. That is probably why they eliminated the family plan because they are making every Xbox Live Gold subscription a family plan.

 

[Beer Monkey]

A (mostly*) non-gaming friend of mine just sold her 360 because she's tired of the Live Gold paywall for Netflix and Youtube.

Seriously. There are people out there who bought the 360 primarily as a media machine. If they sell the Mini, they really need to move some TV stuff from behind the paywall.


*She played Just Dance 2 for months.



EDIT: Oh, I should mention she's buying an Apple TV, specifically because she won't have to pay an annual fee on top of her Hulu Plus and Netflix.

 

[Phonomezer]

Where are we hearing that the mini won't have storage?

that would fucking suuuuuck.

Or is thus a case of trying to turn a positive into a negative?

I'm not sure how that makes sense if it's supposed to play digital games.

 

[swordsman720]

I do hope the rumor is true.
What if MS gives you these options.

1. You have already a xbox360?via hdmi in pass through to the Durango.
Downside - more devices under your tv.- cost 0 money extra.

2. BC upgrade module fits inside your Durango
3. Xbox360 mini (stand alone machine)

For me option 1 is great but two is better, so I put my old device in my another room.
100 dollar will be a great price to give you the option for +\-100 % BC and re download all Xbox live arcades and all game demands you have purchased previously.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Final Draft Version 1.0 EPA Game Console Performance Requirements and Test Method Comment Summary and Response

These are the comments from Game console Manufacturers on next generation consoles meeting the power requirements set forth by the EPA. PS4 and Durango could not meet those levels but the WiiU could but just barely. The comments also give an idea of what they had to do to meet the requirements.

Stakeholder = Game console Manufacturer

One stakeholder noted that Final Draft power limits are not achievable for two of the three console makers and, under some circumstances, only partially achievable by the Nintendo WiiU since game title customizes its navigation menus slightly differently, with some opting for a simple, utilitarian appearance while others choose to incorporate splashy graphics, sound, and background animations, which require more power over 40W.

Another stakeholder in support of the Final Draft power limits reported that the new Wii U launch model (8 GB model) purchased in November 2012, draws 28-29 watts in Video Stream Play mode, and 31-32 watts in Navigation Menu function per their own tests.

One stakeholder commented that power scaling does not have infinite elasticity and that in order for the manufacturer to “hit” a certain downscaled number for media streaming, the manufacturer may have to opt for a chip that has an energy ceiling below that which is optimal for other, non-scaled functions, like game play. Alternatively, there may exist a subset of chips that could handle both extremes (e.g., a chip designed for high-end ultra books) but at an exorbitant cost relative to what is an affordable option for a device priced at several hundred dollars. It also noted that redesigning consoles’ motherboards to accommodate scalable architecture is an incredibly complicated and expensive process and even if the next generation was updated it may require more processing power.

The stakeholder further stated that console manufacturers can only meet the Streaming Media power limit by embedding into the console a separate chipset and associated circuitry optimized for video streaming which is technically complex, prohibitively expensive, and could introduce latency issues when switching between systems. The stakeholder cited an unofficial estimate of an Apple TV (2nd Generation) cost of $64.5 compared to the launch year prices for the most economical versions of the current generation game consoles were $299 (Xbox 360), $499 (PS3), and $299 (Wii U). In light of the industry’s business model, adding an additional $64 in parts to devices at these price points when they are often sold at a loss is not sustainable financially. The stakeholder also commented that it does not make sense to compare dedicated media steaming boxes to game consoles because the consoles are optimized for different function

Epa responded

State-of-the-Art game, what game consoles have always been about, is, in essence, not covered by power requirements in this program. Instead, game play is being allowed to continue uninhibited. However, game consoles that are increasingly dedicating themselves to providing nongaming services such as media play should be held to similar standards as devices providing these same services. Devices such as set-top boxes can use as low as 4W (though more typically 10-20W) in Active Streaming Media. For these reasons, a requirement of 50W is achievable. The game console recognition program recognizes those manufacturers that are able to produce a console that pushes the limits of current efficiency within the industry.

Notice that WiiU can barely meet the Power mode requirements and while slightly older technology, Durango and PS4 have vastly more powerful GPUs.

My guess is that a Second separate chipset and associated circuitry optimized for video streaming is in Durango and PS4 and it includes a small ARM GPU. The UI and streaming is via the second chip GPU. When you press the game suspend button you switch from the Game GPU to the second smaller GPU. OS UI and overlay in game mode is the second GPU also.

This was a real issue and a second smaller GPU is in the PS4 and Durango.

2 GPU context switching patent by Sony starts as early as 2009 with a final file date of June 2012.
Patent from Microsoft SCALABLE MULTIMEDIA COMPUTER SYSTEM ARCHITECTURE WITH QOS GUARANTEES (2 GPUs) same as in the Yukon slide.

 

[Phonomezer]

I do hope the rumor is true.
What if MS gives you these options.

1. You have already a xbox360?via hdmi in pass through to the Durango.
Downside - more devices under your tv.- cost 0 money extra.

2. BC upgrade module fits inside your Durango
3. Xbox360 mini (stand alone machine)

For me option 1 is great but two is better, so I put my old device in my another room.
100 dollar will be a great price to give you the option for +\-100 % BC and re download all Xbox live arcades and all game demands you have purchased previously.

You should be able to just transfer them all over with the HDD cord.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Still need to hear if used/rentals are allowed before I give a shit.

 

[Phonomezer]

Still need to hear if used/rentals are allowed before I give a shit.

From the OP

Durango itself will also always be online like any other device (correct with rumors), but it will not be a requirement to play local content and it will not prevent playing used games.

 

[SPDIF]

Still need to hear if used/rentals are allowed before I give a shit.

Doesn't it say that in the OP?

but it will not be a requirement to play local content and it will not prevent playing used games

EDIT: Beaten

 

[dragonelite]

Uumh because Microsoft told devs on 360 to use dx api it makes me wonder if they could forward the dx api calls to durango. Should add a shit load of latency i guess. Still better then sony gaikai solution as long as the durango controller can Access 360 mini kinds like wii u so input doesnt have to be forwarded by durango

 

[MaddenNFL64]

If true, one of my stipulations is met. Second is no more xbox live fee for online play. If its there, no go.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Combine the OP with this 2011 post and the method of BC becomes clear

Windows 8 will allow for Xbox 360 games to be played on PC\'s July 2011

Teknylate.com and Insideris.com have reported that with the next versions of Microsoft’s PC operating system, Windows 8, will include the function to allow users to play Xbox 360 games on their PC’s

Getting to the point there are going to be two console as part of the redesigned “Xbox Line” of products. A repackaged and reoriented Xbox 360 unit and the new “Durango” gaming console, both designed to compete with more than Sony in gaming, but against Apple as well.

When the Durango (game machine) launches, it will not support backwards compatibility for 360 games out of the box. Instead, this functionality will come from the other unit that will be networked with the Durango to provide this (not unlike the DVD add-on for the original Xbox).

The purpose of the smaller Xbox unit is to compete with Apple TV, but also provides XBLA and 360 game support which will give it an edge over Apple TV. The rumors of “always online required” comes from the smaller Xbox unit which may not have a disc drive and like Apple TV it would require a network connection and internet to provide any real functionality. It may be possible they will design both consoles to be stackable.

Durango itself will also always be online like any other device (correct with rumors), but it will not be a requirement to play local content and it will not prevent playing used games. Putting in an Xbox 360 disc into Durango will prompt the user to attach the supporting device that is sold separately. By separating the two devices and their functions it will ensure price competitiveness for both pieces of hardware. Microsoft’s delay in announcing these products from April goes more inline with not having a physical set of devices to show (among specification updates), which should be ready by May or June when this information is officially released.

The price goal of the smaller Xbox is $149 or lower and it is likely to not have a disc drive and would require a network connection. Durango will be priced competitively according to PS4′s price.

Windows 8 is primarily on Tablet class platforms so not enough power to emulate a Xbox 360 so it must be a Xbox360/ARM LAN streamed to Windows 8 PCs Gaikai like. Same planned by Sony and their reason for buying GaiKai. According to rumors, Xbox 720 and PS4 can stream games to handhelds too (Codec encoders and Trustzone built into both).

Microsoft registers Microsoft-Sony.com July 2011 Gaikai like functionality between Microsoft 720 and Xbox 360/ARM as well as Sony Network CE platforms with ARM Trustzone (TVs and Blu-ray players). This is just an expansion of RVU with Trustzone needed to encrypt RVU (DTCP-IP) and Game disk data moving from a Blu-ray player to the diskless Xbox 360/ARM.

In the EU standby power examples is the mention of a game console that can LAN access a Blu-ray drive and remote play the disk. This would be a diskless PS3 or Xbox 360 as Xbox 720 and PS4 will have blu-ray drives. Besides giving us a clue on a 22nm PS3/ARM and 32nm Xbox360/ARM diskless $99 game console it tells us that some model Sony blu-ray player is going to support this. Smart TVs will also use this Blu-ray RVU ability to remote control and play blu-ray media. Again ARM Trustzone and h.264 encoding will be needed in the blu-ray player.

RVU is mandated by the FCC for cable companies July 2014. It and ATSC 2.0 will require home networks and h.264 support. ATSC 2.0 NRT requires DVR ability and XTV (browser). Software stacks in all CE platforms that support ATSC 2.0 and RVU as well as hardware that supports AOAC will be a standard and that eliminates many chicken and eggs limitations.

Windows 8 AMD tablets all support AOAC and Trustzone. The requirements for Windows 8 hardware should confirm some of the Next generation game console features. Arm Trustzone and PowerVR (Sony signed an agreement with Imagination Tech to put PowerVR series 5 GPU into their CE platforms) in Sony TVs and Blu-ray players is another indication of next generation features.

brotkasten in the NeoGAF thread I referenced above found this:

Xbox 360 references discovered in Windows 8 kernel July 2011

Italian site win8italia has discovered several strings that reference the Xbox 360 system inside the Windows 8 kernel. “XBOX_360_SYSTEM_CRASH” and “XBOX_360_SYSTEM_CRASH_RESERVED” are present in ntoskrnl.exe, part of the Windows NT kernel.

Which is Windows 8 NT with Xbox 360 error messages. So confirmation of a Xbox 360 running Windows 8 NT (System crash wouldn't be a Emulation/engine crash). Windows 8 with RVU media and next generation remote desktop between Windows 8 platforms which includes Game consoles (Xbox 720 and Xbox 360/ARM are both going to have Windows 8).

This is all 20/20 hindsight in reading posts from July 2011 and newer.

 

[Satchel]

Jeff, your post makes me think the Xbox Surface will be coming soon.

 

[artist]

-1 for VGLeaks.

Personally for me in terms of reliability it goes;

1. Edge
2. VGLeaks/WSJ
3. CVG
4. VG247
5. Kotaku
6. TheVerge
7. EGM
8. Digitimes
9. Thurrot
10.

Spoiler

Pastebin - Dedicated to Reiko

 

[clav]

Not counting this out yet until after E3.

Spoiler

Still building a PC.

 

[artist]

Not counting this out yet until after E3.

Spoiler

Still building a PC.

You mean the BC or the used games? Cause VGLeaks clearly said;

it will not prevent playing used games.

 

[clav]

You mean the BC or the used games? Cause VGLeaks clearly said;

BC

That's what killed my interest today.

I don't mind the online/offline thing as all my recent games I've played a number of single player games on this crappy 1.5/0.384 READSL (reach-extended ADSL2 with 62 ms ping) connection with zero issues.

 

[Valnen]

BC

That's what killed my interest today.

Yeah I was pretty disappointed nothing about this was announced as well. I would like to see this hardware solution come to both next gen systems.

 

[twinturbo2]

Not counting this out yet until after E3.

Spoiler

Still building a PC.

Spoiler

Im getting an Alienware notebook once they refresh their offerings.

 

[Cartman86]

You mean the BC or the used games? Cause VGLeaks clearly said;

And Microsoft claims they aren't going to. Seems like they will partner with stores to allow trade ins for digital somehow.

 

[clav]

Spoiler

Im getting an Alienware notebook once they refresh their offerings.

Why do you want to torture yourself with subpar build quality and an overheating machine?

Build a desktop.

 

[Poona]

Yeah, what the heck happened to these?

Damnit I thought it was a sure thing for the xbox one to have bc whether it be built in with the 360 soc or if it was enabled through this box mini add-on.

Honestly people should find other ways of spending their time rather than making up stupid rumours like these and getting your hopes up.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Yeah, what the heck happened to these?

Damnit I thought it was a sure thing for the xbox one to have bc whether it be built in with the 360 soc or if it was enabled through this box mini add-on.

Honestly people should find other ways of spending their time rather than making up stupid rumours like these and getting your hopes up.

Yesterday just eliminated everything but the OP as a BC option which I also feel is accurate.

So far I don't think anyone has been able to read the label over the second from the right plug. I believe it's IR Out for Infra Red blaster which is also on Google TV and needed to control the cable box. CEC control is possible but some major players who make cable boxes are not supporting CEC. RVU has control over the Lan connection but for the living room TV with older cable boxes it's still going to require a IR blaster.

From Right to left:

Lan Port
IR Blaster port
Kinect 2 port (Always on connected to the low power circuits)
USB 3 ports (stacked) (Off until powered on)
HDMI Out
Audio Optical out
HDMI In
Power

USB port on the Left side near the front of the Xboxone.

 

[twinturbo2]

Why do you want to torture yourself with subpar build quality and an overheating machine?

Build a desktop.

I'm not that good with building things, and I need the portability.