Which one is which and why does one have a framerate advantage by design? Is there anything to help with physics and fluid/cloth simulations and clipping in those rumoured gpus or cpus? And who cares for Heavy Rain
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
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Which one is which and why does one have a framerate advantage by design? Is there anything to help with physics and fluid/cloth simulations and clipping in those rumoured gpus or cpus? And who cares for Heavy Rain
Well, it shouldn't - considering the amount of RAM is 4Gb then the jump in memory space (x6-8) will be much higher than in useful screen resolution (x2-3), so that alone should warrant that much more texture data is stored reducing the need to cache from HDD/BR and improving the pop-in. In the end it's all down to the programming tools available for devs and some other HW solutions we might not be aware of.
Looking at how this generation worked out for Sony (inferior 3rd party games) I'd hope they took notes about what needs to be improved.
Hope so! So Considering the leaked specs of Orbis and Durango is it safe to say both are at power with minor differences and advantages here and there?
Ah. I thought that since 360 has 10mb and WiiU has 32, the next XBox could have had something like 100, I knew that eDRAM was very expensive, but not that much. :lol100mB seem rather high - it is more expensive and complex to fab than eSRAM but has a lot higher density. I am not an expert but I guess they will need at least as much space to fit a 1080p picture with (some?) effects into it. That is why sometimes the 360 used sub-HD resolution because a whole 720p picture would not fit into 10MB.
For your DDR3 question
(sorry might have mixed up Gbit/s and GB/s some posts ahed). Of course those values differ depending on clock rate, bus, etc.
But then, if eDRAM has a bandwidth of 250GB/s more or less (read above) and GDDR5 can achieve 200GB/s, wouldn't be better not to use eDRAM but GDDR5 instead, since you can have more space with just a 50GB/s hit on the bandwidth?
So basically GDDR5 has a twice bandwidth of DDR3?
We don't know enough yet, but you could say that.
seventynine
Member
I believe he was suggesting the PS4 would have the framerate advantage. I guess this ties in with the mandatory 3D for all games rumour from a while back?Which one is which and why does one have a framerate advantage by design? Is there anything to help with physics and fluid/cloth simulations and clipping in those rumoured gpus or cpus? And who cares for Heavy Rain
If the current leaks are true, the overall capabilities should be somewhat similar, but achieved quite differently.
Damn, this thread got interesting after I went to bed. The news about the Durango having customizations to hit a similar performance level to a 680 and the Orbis having a 30% clockspeed advantage are both awesome rumors for their respective consoles. It also seems to shed light on why there's a lack of information/confidence in Sony. They're probably not doing across the board optimizations and are just focusing on customizing specific areas targeted by their first parties (hopefully in real time lighting and tesselation) and a lot of devs are still in the dark. The Durango customizations sound impressive if true but if my guess is right Sony's method saves them some cash and will probably get similar results in the end.
If these rumors are correct then both companies have hit the performance level I wanted/expected with cheaper, cooler, lower power parts and that's better for everyone. If devs are happy with it, we'll be happy.
If these rumors are correct then both companies have hit the performance level I wanted/expected with cheaper, cooler, lower power parts and that's better for everyone. If devs are happy with it, we'll be happy.
I know nothing about software in development nor final specs, but if our sources are correct, than both machines have different architectures. This will foster a growth of exclusives that have particular areas of beauty that will be unmatched by third party development. It's a beautiful thing.
amstradcpc
Member
The curious thing is that a 1.84 tflop gpu with 192 GBS bandwith to RAM will behave a little better that an AMD/ATI 7850 at 153,6 GBS. And on the other hand a special sauced 1,2 tflop GPU will behave like a Nvidia GTX 680. Strange.
As long as I don't have to suffer through shit ports like this gen I'll be happy. I'll gladly take multiplatform games that are different visually but play to each consoles' strengths instead of one getting the shaft.
I want a Crysis: Maximum Collection or something for next gen. All 3 on one disc at 1080p with all the eye candy. 2 is my favorite FPS this gen and 3 seems even better. I'd love to be able to play them properly.
From the outside it gives an impression of Sony playing reactionary catch up to ms who look prepared and steadfast in their plans. Maybe this is the reason behind developers' alleged 'lack of confidence'. Perhaps internally it's not so bad but this obfuscation really doesn't help.
If it makes you feel better, I've heard that developers really helped shaped the development of the machine this time.
First or third parties? If it has been a joint effort, which side got the bigger say?
PS: I don't think they'd be pleased with the ram situation if the Os eats into the precious GDDR5 RAM.
Exclusive titles are fucking stupid.
Third parties.
Yes but it's what differentiates the platforms. Just buy both machines.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Apparently Truway got confirmation from someone and PM'd me and from his info and systemfehler's post with a cite that explains some of the VGleaks post we now have more confidence in that post. See the RED highlighted area in my post.
4 Gig GDDR5 is not confirmed but GDDR5 bandwidth is likely. Notice the VGleaks post does not mention GDDR5, but everyone reading it assumes GDDR5 because of the bandwidth. GDDR5 will pull too much current even clocked slow for XTV and idle/streaming. Using just a Temesh APU with second GPU turned off the minimal power would be 2-5 w (APU) plus 5 watts for the second GPU turned off plus if GDDR5 it would burn more power than APU plus turned off GPU combined. Correct if wrong.
Nizz
Member
Which one is which and why does one have a framerate advantage by design? Is there anything to help with physics and fluid/cloth simulations and clipping in those rumoured gpus or cpus? And who cares for Heavy Rain
All this sounds great to me.
ALBOFIGHTER
Member
Does the pm reinforce your post and speculation of orbis? I sure hope so cause your version is more cutting edge and powerful enough to satisfy the fanbase for years. I think it's necessary in order to compete with microsoft which has more customization and backwards compatibility.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Not according to Sony's Website which states:
So it's passive and that means that in simulview each person gets only 1080p of vertical resolution.
Stacked DDR4 with 1024bit bus could reach 192 GB/s... and we all know that Sony likes stacking.
GDDR5 is maybe present only in early devkits.It would be amazing if Sony could pull off interposer with great APU and 192GB/s memory on it.
Brad Grenz
Member
It would probably be wise not to place blind faith in some magical fairy dust the Durango GPU is supposed to have, but that no one can name. We all saw how that kind of thinking turned out for the Nintendo stalwarts in the WiiU Speculation threads.
The difference is- this is Microsoft. They are not afraid to foot the bill. They are an intelligent company designed around their tech. You can bet on them not fooling around when it comes to the biggest trojan horse they have.
A big mistake to make is comparing the Full HD Twins to anything that happened with the Wii U.
It required 1.8GB VRAM. At this point it's of course running at 1080p at 60fps without optimization for final spec'd consoles.
Pertaining to RAM, 4GB may sound a lot until OS eats into it. Even then people may think it be sufficient. Unlike processor, whose time time is maximized for 100% utilization, RAM is never full. In fact, the base assets would take up a lot less than 256MB VRAM- OS consumption (PS3). The overhead is kept so that the game can draw in more information so that it can run smoothly (much like scratch pad). Here's an example:
So in effect, around 3/4ths (which is still higher than what's in the picture but that's in MB and next gen will be in GB) of the RAM available would be utilized fully. As such, Agni would perhaps not fit without reduction in either framerate and/or resolution.
People downplay this but every single megabyte of memory when it comes to RAM counts.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Stacked DDR4 with 1024bit bus could reach 192 GB/s... and we all know that Sony likes stacking.
It would be amazing if Sony could pull off interposer with great APU and 192GB/s memory on it.
And wouldn't it be the case that DDR4 stacked while maybe more expensive/complex at first be cheaper in the longer run?
When people talk about a console GPU having similar performance of another PC GPU...I think a certain amount of that is just natural console optimisation. For example, taking software or technology that runs on a 680 on a PC and getting it to run more or less the same on a console that has less raw grunt.
Now, these GPUs, and Durango's GPU may well be tweaked for performance that is like for like akin to more powerful GPUs in some respects, aside from just 'console optimisation'...for example high fillrate to slice of eDRAM. But I think a lot of that talk that makes a direct comparison with a PC GPU is just talking about how a closed box system is keeping up with PC systems that devs were previously working with or running tech on. The idea of console hardware punching above its weight in the more ordinary sense.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I am still speculating but apparently Truway got some confirmation from an insider. The Sony VP Technology platform specs for PS4 = the VG leaks specs so I'm in.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Likely it's a 512 bit buss (Yole assumption) and a faster 20nm DDR4. DDR3 with a 1024 bit buss can do 2000GBit/sec= 250GB/sec. The DDR4 specs we have so far seen are slower than DDR3.Stacked DDR4 with 1024bit bus could reach 192 GB/s... and we all know that Sony likes stacking.
It would be amazing if Sony could pull off interposer with great APU and 192GB/s memory on it.
Of course, stacking yields will go up and ram price will go down with time. GDDR5 on the other hand is slowly becoming less and less used and large manufacturers are not confident about its price...
Brad Grenz
Member
That's all well and good, but in the Durango 888 thread they're all talking about super-secret hardware customizations that act like some kind of force multiplier to the extent that relative programmable flops is no longer a valid performance measure. Based on the vaguest of vague rumors, I might add. Most assume they are things the Orbis will not have, when I think it's far more likely any actual source was probably talking about what you're saying: closed box, more efficient API, deeper access to hardware features, customized memory architectures, etc. Of course, all those things are just as true about the Orbis. I think a lot of people are having dreams of magical rasterizing co-processors and hardware ray-tracers and other such fantastical nonsense.
These words are from the mouths of developers. Microsoft has the deepest pockets around.
Brad Grenz
Member
And the best sorcerers? If you want to tell me they're packing a 3 TF GPU onto an enormous APU and eating the costs, I'll believe that before I believe there is some secret sauce they've discovered that no one else has thought of that miraculously makes a 768 GFlop GPU perform like a 3 TFlop one.
No, it's physics.
No, it's physics.
jeff_rigby
Banned
From BY3D by a Jan 2013 new member Hecatoncheires which is the name of an AMD family of GPUs:
In any case it gives us information to confirm APU + GPU and Kabini or Kavari as base designs. Kabini because of Sweetvar26 (Jagaur) and low power XTV-streaming media.
In any case it gives us information to confirm APU + GPU and Kabini or Kavari as base designs. Kabini because of Sweetvar26 (Jagaur) and low power XTV-streaming media.
Custom silicon is new to you?
I guess his point is that - unless the custom silicon is a 2.2TF GPU - you don't just get a leap like that from a couple of coprocessors.
I'm similarly skeptical but also curious what they might be. Just as we think we have some of the rumours locked down in reality, here we are with another vague spec to try and decode.
I'm not au fait with these rumours or speculation, I'm scarcely keeping up with the stuff in this thread it seems.
But if people are talking about something more than the usual 'closed box' performance multiplier, I would guess it has to do with eDRAM. Beyond that...I'd invite anyone hinting at that to shit or get off the pot
It's pointless to try and debate not knowing what's being talked about. If there is anything to talk about we'll know about it in a few months I guess.I take it as we're missing a significant piece of Durango specs. And maybe more so for Orbis.
Put it this way. Any news/specs that are spot on will be removed on NeoGAF. Just like it has happened before.
Brad Grenz
Member
It's all custom silicon if you can't buy it at Fry's. AMD already has one of the most efficient high performance GPU core technologies available. No one at MS came along and said "hey, if you added this tiny unit it would make your whole GPU 3 times faster". All MS is doing is deciding how much money and time they can spend and how much heat they can get rid of. AMD will make the GPU as big as they want, and they'll give it whatever memory you want, but there is no secret thing they can "customize" to magically make it work 200% better.
Also refer to my previous post.
I agree with you here someone believes in fairy tales.A GPU can have all the customization of this world, but you can not turn 1.2 TFLOPS GPU into a monster.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Here is a exchange from Bkilian over at B3D who is a confirmed (ex) MS insider.
Rangers said:
bkilian said:
I think with the above it's almost confirmation Durango has multiple customisations. Of Orbis could too, we just don't have a talkative Sony insider afaik.