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[RoboPlato]

So Proelite says PS4 will once be receiving gimped ports. I have had it with that shit. It takes away a major incentive for me when it comes to buying PS4 first. More than anything, after all the struggles, all the mistakes Sony made with PS3, I had hoped that even when neck and neck, I'd never heard about getting the short end of the stick when it comes to multiplat titles, which form the bulk of games released in any given year.

People, including myself, have hugged on to thuway and Proelite for a few legitimate (or we'd hope so) leaks amongst obfuscations. So I am now pretty worried and wonder whether this is another reason why Aegeis alluded to third parties not having much confidence in Sony?

I think he's underestimating the extra write cycles and bandwidth of GDDR5. There will likely be some differences but nothing major, as far as I understand it. Proelite is also a bit more biased toward Microsoft in a lot of his posts about next gen performance so, even though he does know some things, his posts are a bit skewed.

Aegis was referring to lack of hard details, dev kits, and a cycling of spec goals that resulting in a lack of confidence. Things seem to have solidified in the last couple weeks, probably coinciding with more devs being let in on it and newer devkits heading out.

Thuway says devs are pleased with both systems, which seems to bode well for everyone.

 

[Nachtmaer]

I don't get why people are already jumping to these kind of conclusions. We're not even sure about the damn specs yet and some people are already picking sides. Even when it does turn out to be true, we don't even know how the actual performance differences will pan out.

 

[iceatcs]

End-of-gen syndrome is a mood disorder in which people who have normal mental health throughout most of the game generation experience year after year. Some people experience a serious mood change when the generation has been too long. They may sleep too little, have heat energy, and may also feel depressed. Though symptoms can be severe damage mental health, they usually clear up when next generation arrive.

 

[gofreak]

I think he's underestimating the extra write cycles and bandwidth of GDDR5. There will likely be some differences but nothing major, as far as I understand it. Proelite is also a bit more biased toward Microsoft in a lot of his posts about next gen performance so, even though he does know some things, his posts are a bit skewed.

Well he's been open about working for Microsoft. (Not Xbox, mind you, but MS)

So his Durango info is probably quite solid. But when it comes to opinions or comparisons, it should be born in mind that some people do rather directly have a horse in the race so to speak.

I wouldn't hug too closely to any one person's take on what's being presented though. The way things are with the setups being rumoured I imagine you'll find lots of varying opinion across the industry about what's good and what's bad, and what'll work well on one system and what will work better on another. I think the line that one of the supposed 'insiders' here presented - I think Karak? - of two systems with different strengths and weaknesses that most are happy about in general...that's the type of line I'd gravitate toward at the moment.

 

[RoboPlato]

Well he's been open about working for Microsoft. (Not Xbox, mind you, but MS)

So his Durango info is probably quite solid. But when it comes to opinions or comparisons, it should be born in mind that some people do rather directly have a horse in the race so to speak.

I wouldn't hug too closely to any one person's take on what's being presented though. The way things are with the setups being rumoured I imagine you'll find lots of varying opinion across the industry about what's good and what's bad, and what'll work well on one system and what will work better on another. I think the line that one of the supposed 'insiders' here presented - I think Karak? - of two systems with different strengths and weaknesses that most are happy about in general...that's the type of line I'd gravitate toward at the moment.

This is what I expect and want for next gen.

 

[Iacobellis]

End-of-gen syndrome is a mood disorder in which people who have normal mental health throughout most of the game generation experience year after year. Some people experience a serious mood change when the generation has been too long. They may sleep too little, have heat energy, and may also feel depressed. Though symptoms can be severe damage mental health, they usually clear up when next generation arrive.

It is a recently discovered disease. The first cases in humans were recorded in 2011.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

So Proelite says PS4 will once be receiving gimped ports. I have had it with that shit. It takes away a major incentive for me when it comes to buying PS4 first. More than anything, after all the struggles, all the mistakes Sony made with PS3, I had hoped that even when neck and neck, I'd never heard about getting the short end of the stick when it comes to multiplat titles, which form the bulk of games released in any given year.

People, including myself, have hugged on to thuway and Proelite for a few legitimate (or we'd hope so) leaks amongst obfuscations. So I am now pretty worried and wonder whether this is another reason why Aegeis alluded to third parties not having much confidence in Sony?

I think he's underestimating the extra write cycles and bandwidth of GDDR5. There will likely be some differences but nothing major, as far as I understand it. Proelite is also a bit more biased toward Microsoft in a lot of his posts about next gen performance so, even though he does know some things, his posts are a bit skewed.

Aegis was referring to lack of hard details, dev kits, and a cycling of spec goals that resulting in a lack of confidence. Things seem to have solidified in the last couple weeks, probably coinciding with more devs being let in on it and newer devkits heading out.

Thuway says devs are pleased with both systems, which seems to bode well for everyone.

Bingo.

He tried to make the comparison as if to say "What if PS4 only had 256 MB of RAM, but had a better GPU"

It's really not an apt comparison whatsoever. Because PS3's RAM was only slightly better than 360's RAM in terms of bandwidth. Getting it cut in half would have made a huge difference.

The PS4 rumors are suggesting 4 GB @ 192 GB/s, while 720 will have 8 GB @ 64 GB/s w/ eSRAM.

The difference in bandwidth in the PS4's favor is MASSIVE. For graphical functions, it will stomp the 8 GB of slow ram.

People are too preoccupied with how much RAM is at your disposal rather than just how quickly it can be accessed. Especially when engines are now streaming data constantly, bandwidth is going to be absolutely crucial for next-gen engines. If 720 is bandwidth starved it will have major consequences.

Secondly, like has been suggested, Microsoft's approach for RAM appears to be the cheaper solution, and fits within their goals of Kinect, Win8, TV capture, etc. Those resources are going to be costly in terms of RAM count, but they don't necessarily require blazing speeds.

Intense graphics do require fast speeds. If the current specs are all we have to go by, I cannot envision a scenario where developers are somehow in a situation where PS4 is being held back again. 4GB of 192 GB/s RAM is a big advantage.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Bingo.

He tried to make the comparison as if to say "What if PS4 only had 256 MB of RAM, but had a better GPU"

It's really not an apt comparison whatsoever. Because PS3's RAM was only slightly better than 360's RAM in terms of bandwidth. Getting it cut in half would have made a huge difference.

The PS4 rumors are suggesting 4 GB @ 192 GB/s, while 720 will have 8 GB @ 64 GB/s w/ eSRAM.

The difference in bandwidth in the PS4's favor is MASSIVE. For graphical functions, it will stomp the 8 GB of slow ram.

People are too preoccupied with how much RAM is at your disposal rather than just how quickly it can be accessed. Especially when engines are now streaming data constantly, bandwidth is going to be absolutely crucial for next-gen engines. If 720 is bandwidth starved it will have major consequences.

Secondly, like has been suggested, Microsoft's approach for RAM appears to be the cheaper solution, and fits within their goals of Kinect, Win8, TV capture, etc. Those resources are going to be costly in terms of RAM count, but they don't necessarily require blazing speeds.

Intense graphics do require fast speeds. If the current specs are all we have to go by, I cannot envision a scenario where developers are somehow in a situation where PS4 is being held back again. 4GB of 192 GB/s RAM is a big advantage.

Well said. Unless Sony cheaps out on the GPU, the PS4 is going to be head and shoulders above the 720.

I just hope the PS4 also packs something comparable performance wise to the AMD 8850 rumored l be in the 720. Because if the 720 has an 8850 equivalent and the PS4 just a 8650 equivalent, all the memory and bandwidth in the world isn't going to save it.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Speaking of Steamroller -> Jaguar...

Is it really that big of a deal if Sony has to go with Jaguar cores to meet a 2013 release target?

Will the CPU be seriously gimped or is it not that big of a deal?

 

[RoboPlato]

Speaking of Steamroller -> Jaguar...

Is it really that big of a deal if Sony has to go with Jaguar cores to meet a 2013 release target?

Will the CPU be seriously gimped or is it not that big of a deal?

Depends on how many cores it is, clock speed, etc. We really don't know much about CPU at all right now so it's tough to say. Sony likes a good CPU though, so I don't think we'll have to worry.

 

[AgentP]

Well said. Unless Sony cheaps out on the GPU, the PS4 is going to be head and shoulders above the 720.

I just hope the PS4 also packs something comparable performance wise to the AMD 8850 rumored l be in the 720. Because if the 720 has an 8850 equivalent and the PS4 just a 8650 equivalent, all the memory and bandwidth in the world isn't going to save it.

The high bandwidth memory is there to feed a beast. You have to match the memory bandwidth to the GPU's capabilities. Why would Sony put high speed GDDR5 with a low end GPU? Go examine the PC market, the higher the end the GPU, the more bandwidth the memory to feed it, it is necessary.

Sor either the GPU rumor is false, or the memory one is, they both can't be right.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Depends on how many cores it is, clock speed, etc. We really don't know much about CPU at all right now so it's tough to say. Sony likes a good CPU though, so I don't think we'll have to worry.

What's the exact reason for the delay, anyway?

You would think that AMD would make it a priority to get that out...or is it out of AMD's hands, really?

 

[Reiko]

If the Durango is really gimped as the current rumors suggest we would have heard a peep about it (From devs) by now...

I don't think the Orbis will be gimped either. Just that these specs just don't seem right for both.

 

[RoboPlato]

What's the exact reason for the delay, anyway?

You would think that AMD would make it a priority to get that out...or is it out of AMD's hands, really?

I think they're just having trouble putting everything together in a reliable fabrication. It happens a lot.

 

[CLEEK]

Bingo.
The PS4 rumors are suggesting 4 GB @ 192 GB/s, while 720 will have 8 GB @ 64 GB/s w/ eSRAM.

The difference in bandwidth in the PS4's favor is MASSIVE. For graphical functions, it will stomp the 8 GB of slow ram.

What you've written about the bandwidth for the PS4 RAM being a huge advantage has echoed most GAF commentators recently. But it seems to have been contradicted by the comments by developers in the thread about Wii U's memory bandwidth.

The gist from that - with some seemingly pertinent real world examples - is that the slow RAM of the WiiU is more offset by the blazingly fast eDRAM and L2 caches. So while the system RAM of the WiiU has lower bandwidth on paper than the PS3 or 360, the real world implementation provides more bandwidth for games.

The supposed make up of the Xbox3 points to a similar design. So it could have the best of both worlds. More RAM in total available to games, and high bandwidth due to the eSRAM.

 

[USC-fan]

What you've written about the bandwidth for the PS4 RAM being a huge advantage has echoed most GAF commentators recently. But it seems to have been contradicted by the comments by developers in the thread about Wii U's memory bandwidth.

The gist from that - with some seemingly pertinent real world examples - is that the slow RAM of the WiiU is more offset by the blazingly fast eDRAM and L2 caches. So while the system RAM of the WiiU has lower bandwidth on paper than the PS3 or 360, the real world implementation provides more bandwidth for games.

The supposed make up of the Xbox3 points to a similar design. So it could have the best of both worlds. More RAM in total available to games, and high bandwidth due to the eSRAM.

That is all nonsense. Dont listen to anything in that thread. It not developers at all...

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

What you've written about the bandwidth for the PS4 RAM being a huge advantage has echoed most GAF commentators recently. But it seems to have been contradicted by the comments by developers in the thread about Wii U's memory bandwidth.

The gist from that - with some seemingly pertinent real world examples - is that the slow RAM of the WiiU is more offset by the blazingly fast eDRAM and L2 caches. So while the system RAM of the WiiU has lower bandwidth on paper than the PS3 or 360, the real world implementation provides more bandwidth for games.

The supposed make up of the Xbox3 points to a similar design. So it could have the best of both worlds. More RAM in total available to games, and high bandwidth due to the eSRAM.

I've heard the opposite and the games show it. Devs are struggling to bring Wii U games up to par with even PS3/360 ports, despite having a LOT more RAM and a better GPU. Sure, eDRAM and L2 cache can make up for a deficiency, but they're not a panacea and they come with considerable downfalls to a solution that is tailor made for blazing fast speeds from the get-go.

I think this speaks to the strength of my original argument that total RAM count is a relatively meaningless number if it's not matched well with the GPU's abilities and demands.

 

[Reiko]

I've heard the opposite and the games show it. Devs are struggling to bring Wii U games up to par with even PS3/360 ports, despite having a LOT more RAM and a better GPU. Sure, eDRAM and L2 cache can make up for a deficiency, but they're not a panacea and they come with considerable downfalls to a solution that is tailor made for blazing fast speeds from the get-go.

I think this speaks to the strength of my original argument that total RAM count is a relatively meaningless number if it's not matched well with the GPU's abilities and demands.

That too.

I really think in the end we will be satisfied with the real specs by launch.

 

[CLEEK]

I've heard the opposite and the games show it. Devs are struggling to bring Wii U games up to par with even PS3/360 ports, despite having a LOT more RAM and a better GPU. Sure, eDRAM and L2 cache can make up for a deficiency, but they're not a panacea and they come with considerable downfalls to a solution that is tailor made for blazing fast speeds from the get-go.

But if you read the OP and the more technical responses, it just sounds like architectural differences are the cause of the slightly below par Wii U ports. Games need to be written specifically with the WiiU's memory set-up in mind. When done, the WiiU memory architecture is better than the PS3/360.

I just look at the 360/PS3 situation to see that fast RAM doesn't mean better multi platform games. The 360 had slower RAM (albeit, a unified pool) but the eDRAM seemed to be one of the main reasons that 360 versions of games had better IQ. An all too common defect in PS3 ports was a lack of AA that was present in the 360 version, and this was just down to memory and the lack of eDRAM in the PS3.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Speaking of Steamroller -> Jaguar...

Is it really that big of a deal if Sony has to go with Jaguar cores to meet a 2013 release target?

Will the CPU be seriously gimped or is it not that big of a deal?

On a related note, it's been hinted that Durango has customized Jaguar cores, I imagine the same is probably true of Sony, so that take that into consideration.

 

[quest]

What's the exact reason for the delay, anyway?

You would think that AMD would make it a priority to get that out...or is it out of AMD's hands, really?

AMD has switched focus from the higher end desktops to lower powered solutions. We saw it at CES it was all about the jaguar and the temash/Kabini. There were even plenty of rumors of the steamroller being cancelled. I hope the steamroller is far enough along to put in the PS4.

 

[Saberus]

Think peeps are so hard up wanting next gen (been so long) that anything that is said in these speculative threads some is taken as fact, and since the facts change every few hours it seems, I'm sure some are close to having a aneurysm.

Once real news hits it should take some of the anxiety away, hopefully

 

[gundamkyoukai]

But if you read the OP and the more technical responses, it just sounds like architectural differences are the cause of the slightly below par Wii U ports. Games need to be written specifically with the WiiU's memory set-up in mind. When done, the WiiU memory architecture is better than the PS3/360.

I just look at the 360/PS3 situation to see that fast RAM doesn't mean better multi platform games. The 360 had slower RAM (albeit, a unified pool) but the eDRAM seemed to be one of the main reasons that 360 versions of games had beet IQ. An all too common defect in PS3 ports was a lack of AA that was present in the 360 version, and this was just down to RAM.

The 360 did not have slower ram , XDR ram was for Cell and it was not even that faster .
XDR 25.6 gbps and DDR3 22.4 gbps , PS3 also used DDR3 for it GPU as you can see it is a non factor .

 

[Reiko]

The 360 did not have slower ram , XDR ram was for cell and was not even that faster .
XDR 25.6 GBps and DDR3 22.4 GBps as you can see that was really a non factor .

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

 

[CLEEK]

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

Yeah, that's what I've read too. There were a bunch of comparisons recently when the low bandwidth of the WiiU's RAM was released.

My point being, the same situation seems to be rumoured for the PS4/Xbox4. The MS console will have lower bandwidth, but a nice chunk of eSRAM to (more than) make up for it.

Seeing how expensive eDRAM / eSRAM is, I can't see why Nintendo or MS would put in in their consoles unless it offers positive trade offs for cost/performance.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

this gen lasting so long has noting to do with people being anxious, it's just that we all know the next generation of console are so close to happening, think about when you were a kid the night before Christmas vs every other night

 

[gundamkyoukai]

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

The PS3 ram on the GPU side faster if i remember right but we are talking about 2gbps faster which is nothing at all .
Point being the difference is so small it won't be comparable .

 

[Angelus Errare]

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

They were about even, but without eDRAM PS3 had major advantage since RSX and Cell had their own pools of memory (and thus bandwidth) while on 360 that 22GB/s of bandwidth was shared by Xenon and Xenos. Basically OG Xbox all over again (which is one of the reasons MS used eDRAM in 360, they didn't want to repeat that again).

 

[AgentP]

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

The RSX had 256MB GDDR3 @ 22.4GB/s, the same as the 512MB in the 360. The XDR was slightly faster (25GB/s), but that is not really related to rendering directly. The eDRAM at 256GB/s is where the real bandwidth was, hence the full res particle buffers and "free" AA (if tiling).

Edit: Angelus Errare is right, split pools means no memory contention.

 

[Reiko]

The PS3 ram on the GPU side faster if i remember right but we are talking about 2gbps faster which is nothing at all .

In real world applications... The 360 version of Bayonetta would have performed similar to the PS3 version (or worse) without the use of eDRAM.

They were about even, but without eDRAM PS3 had major advantage since RSX and Cell had their own pools of memory (and thus bandwidth) while on 360 that 22GB/s of bandwidth was shared by Xenon and Xenos. Basically OG Xbox all over again (which is one of the reasons MS used eDRAM in 360, they didn't want to repeat that again).

Very true.

 

[Saberus]

this gen lasting so long has noting to do with people being anxious, it's just that we all know the next generation of console are so close to happening, think about when you were a kid the night before Christmas vs every other night

Oh I agree.. I've been a hard core console nut since the Atari 2600 days.. I'm starting to get that before Christmas feeling again at times myself.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

If I remember from early speculation threads, the PS3 ram was faster if not factoring in the 360's eDRAM setup.

Yes, that is the case. But it wasn't that much faster -- see the post you quoted. Sony went with marginally faster XDR RAM (25.6 vs 22.4)

The rumored difference between Durango's RAM and Orbis' RAM is much larger (192 vs 62). Even taking into account Durango's eSRAM, it doesn't hold up. Which makes me thing there's something else at play here.

Have all the Durango rumors pointed to a unified memory solution? Having just 2GB of GDDR5 in Durango (with 4-6 GB of DDR3) would make things interesting...

 

[quest]

this gen lasting so long has noting to do with people being anxious, it's just that we all know the next generation of console are so close to happening, think about when you were a kid the night before Christmas vs every other night

I can agree with this. I always get so damn excited for every new generation. Just last time around the 360 was leaked something like almost a year a head of time and took away this speculation game. For me this is very fun it is like trying to guess your xmas gift when they are under the tree just before opening. My only worry is all this will lead to lot of disapointed people who are expecting a super machine at 399.99 dollars.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

In real world applications... The 360 version of Bayonetta would have performed similar to the PS3 version (or worse) without the use of eDRAM.

True but that is what the eDRAM was for .
Which is why we need to know how much esRAM ( might be the wrong name )MS going to put into Durango to help with the DDR3 .
That would really help us figure out stuff if we had that info .

 

[CLEEK]

The rumored difference between Durango's RAM and Orbis' RAM is much larger (192 vs 62). Even taking into account Durango's eSRAM, it doesn't hold up. Which makes me thing there's something else at play here.

How can you say that without knowing the bandwidth of the eSRAM? The bandwidth will almost certainly be higher than the GDDR5 in the PS4. Potentially significantly faster.

As per the 360, this super fast eRAM could make all the difference.

Look at it from a different angle. Rather than worrying that MS have cheapened out and stuck slow RAM in there, perhaps Sony have had to go for fast GDDR RAM to make up for the lack of eDRAM / eSRAM.

If you look at past console designs, the PS3 seems to be the odd one out in that it didn't use eDRAM. Sony had used it in the PS2 and PSP, the 360 used it and Nintendo have put in in their last 3 consoles. A more pertinent question might be why haven't Sony gone for this design? It could be they are going for a more off the shelf design (cheaper R&D costs and lower BOW for parts) and stuck closer to PC parts, where as MS have designed the Xbox3 as a console (more R&D and more expensive components).

 

[aegies]

Microsoft wouldn't have put all that memory in the system if it wasn't usable for games. They're software developers. They design hardware around software development. I'm not saying orbis is going to get obliterated out of memory concerns or something, but I think it's not a stretch to say the memory pool in durango is there because developers wanted it. If developers would have preferred 4GB of faster memory, they probably would have gotten that instead.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Microsoft wouldn't have put all that memory in the system if it wasn't usable for games. They're software developers. They design hardware around software development. I'm not saying orbis is going to get obliterated out of memory concerns or something, but I think it's not a stretch to say the memory pool in durango is there because developers wanted it. If developers would have preferred 4GB of faster memory, they probably would have gotten that instead.

How can you speak with any universal confidence?

You act as though developers are all one single minded entity. Or that Microsoft only designs their consoles with game development in mind well beyond all other considerations (they don't).

What if Sony consulted Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Guerilla Games, and Polyphony Digital and they all requested having faster RAM vs. a slower, large pool?

Why is it that Sony went this route if universally, all developers wanted more, slower RAM? They could have just as easily went that route.

 

[Reiko]

How can you speak with any universal confidence?

You act as though developers are all one single minded entity. Or that Microsoft only designs their consoles with game development in mind well beyond all other considerations (they don't).

What if Sony consulted Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Guerilla Games, and Polyphony Digital and they all requested having faster RAM vs. a slower, large pool?

Why is it that Sony went this route if universally, all developers wanted more, slower RAM? They could have just as easily went that route.

I think in the coming years we'll eventually find out which RAM setup would best suit the more ambitiously creative games.

Everything was going good for the 360's RAM setup until the rise of deferred rendering engines. The PS3 coped fine, but things got really tricky with coding to 360 going forward.

 

[Kaiken]

Scrolling, scrolling, no links to hard facts, I'll be back.

 

[CLEEK]

Everything was going good for the 360's RAM setup until the rise of deferred rendering engines. The PS3 coped fine, but things got really tricky with coding to 360 going forward.

That could be a telling point. Guerilla Games were pioneers in deferred rendering in consoles, and sections of Killzone 3 are stand out as the most technically impressive moments in gaming this gen.

If MS went out and spoke with Epic, EA and Activision, they might not want the same things as Guerilla Games or Naughty Dog. One might be more interesting in ease of development and a flexible architecture, the other might want the ability to push new rendering techniques and effects. Different devs could easily want different things.

Epic would just want a system that run their middleware better. EA might want a system that reduces the time it takes to develop. Guerilla Games might just want a system that allows for some bad ass effects, but at the cost of ease of programmability.

 

[specialguy]

Bingo.

He tried to make the comparison as if to say "What if PS4 only had 256 MB of RAM, but had a better GPU"

It's really not an apt comparison whatsoever. Because PS3's RAM was only slightly better than 360's RAM in terms of bandwidth. Getting it cut in half would have made a huge difference.

The PS4 rumors are suggesting 4 GB @ 192 GB/s, while 720 will have 8 GB @ 64 GB/s w/ eSRAM.

The difference in bandwidth in the PS4's favor is MASSIVE. For graphical functions, it will stomp the 8 GB of slow ram.

People are too preoccupied with how much RAM is at your disposal rather than just how quickly it can be accessed. Especially when engines are now streaming data constantly, bandwidth is going to be absolutely crucial for next-gen engines. If 720 is bandwidth starved it will have major consequences.

Secondly, like has been suggested, Microsoft's approach for RAM appears to be the cheaper solution, and fits within their goals of Kinect, Win8, TV capture, etc. Those resources are going to be costly in terms of RAM count, but they don't necessarily require blazing speeds.

Intense graphics do require fast speeds. If the current specs are all we have to go by, I cannot envision a scenario where developers are somehow in a situation where PS4 is being held back again. 4GB of 192 GB/s RAM is a big advantage.

This may hold some water, I'm obviously not a programmer or even that knowledgeable, BUT

I think the 360 bandwidth may be fine. Remember it's not just the rumored 68 GB/s, but also the ESRAM. Which apparently is incredibly versatile and fast (way better in fact than the PS4's GDDR5). This will take framebuffer BW out, so the main bus will mostly be for textures as I understand.

In the end the 720 may be able to utilize it's extra RAM just fine. And the RAM advantage may be very real. It can even be that the PS4 BW is "overkill". Normally as I understand it a certain amount of RAM is used per frame and a certain amount is held in reserve. The PS4 may be fast enough to use ALL its RAM every frame. That's nice, but it leaves you with NO reserve, the only thing left to do is go hit the disk (extremely slow obviously)

Another way to say it, at 30 FPS the PS3 can hit over 6GB of RAM per frame. Except it only has 3!

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Someone should ask devs from Sony etc. on Twitter if they prefer 3-4 GB of very fast RAM or 6-8 GB of slow RAM with ESRAM. Maybe someone responds lol.

 

[dragonelite]

There are just to many unknown variables to make a decision what is good and what is not.
Where did the ddr3 rumor came from dev kits?

Could it be that devkits are only fitted out with ddr3 but will have ddr4 memory in the final console?

And i was told that Gddr5 can have that much bandwidth but the latencies are bad?
Pretty cool i just bother other internship guys or the guys working at this intern company when new rumors arise

 

[specialguy]

I think in the coming years we'll eventually find out which RAM setup would best suit the more ambitiously creative games.

Everything was going good for the 360's RAM setup until the rise of deferred rendering engines. The PS3 coped fine, but things got really tricky with coding to 360 going forward.

This is also true, BUT, we still saw the 360 do fine or better than the PS3 on multiplats late in this gen, and I seem to recall some deferred engines on 360 that were just fine too, so it's hard to say.

KZ2 (I use cause it was heavily deferred) imo blew away anything on 360 in 2008, but if anything 360 caught back up rather than PS3 extending it's lead imo. See games like Halo 4, BF3 and Crysis 2.

 

[specialguy]

Someone should ask devs from Sony etc. on Twitter if they prefer 3-4 GB of very fast RAM or 6-8 GB of slow RAM with ESRAM. Maybe someone responds lol.

It's probably a question that cant even be answered except for if you actually program on each system. There will be so many quirks and variables to each architecture in practice.

 

[Gorillaz]

Someone should ask devs from Sony etc. on Twitter if they prefer 3-4 GB of very fast RAM or 6-8 GB of slow RAM with ESRAM. Maybe someone responds lol.

Why don't we just ask Arne. I mean he works for Naughty Dog




















He will ignore it tho lol

 

[specialguy]

There are just to many unknown variables to make a decision what is good and what is not.
Where did the ddr3 rumor came from dev kits?

Could it be that devkits are only fitted out with ddr3 but will have ddr4 memory in the final console?

And i was told that Gddr5 can have that much bandwidth but the latencies are bad?
Pretty cool i just bother other internship guys or the guys working at this intern company when new rumors arise

DDR4 initial 2013 speeds will be the same as DDR3. They'll intersect at first.

So it really doesnt matter if DDR3 or 4 from a performance view.

 

[Proxy]

This is probably a dumb question but humor me. If developers were happy with that amount of slow RAM then why would Microsoft add more expense and complexity to their product by including ESRAM? Does it not signal that it's in reaction to a perceived flaw in the design of the hardware?

 

[Reiko]

It's probably a question that cant even be answered except for if you actually program on each system. There will be so many quirks and variables to each architecture in practice.

Why do I get the feeling that Tiago Sousa from Crytek really wants to comment on PS4/720 RAM but is NDA duct taped all over?

This is probably a dumb question but humor me. If developers were happy with that amount of slow RAM then why would Microsoft add more expense and complexity to their product by including ESRAM? Does it not signal that it's in reaction to a perceived flaw in the design of the hardware?

Probably a cautionary measure to ensure another Xbox 1 situation from repeating as previously stated in this thread.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I'm not discounting eSRAM, it has a role. But remember it's only 32MB, not a whole lot.

I'm just trying to compare this situation to last gen. Microsoft and Sony had roughly comparable RAM bandwidth, but 360's extra bandwidth with eDRAM allowed for better alpha effects and is one of the reasons why certain games ran a lot better (not just a function of the more smartly designed GPU with Xenos).

This time it's different, if the rumors are to believed. The bandwidth the PS4 is rumored to be going with is close to the amount that the 360 had for eDRAM (192 vs 256), but instead of only 10MB, Sony has 4 Gigs to work with.

All next-gen graphics cards work with GDDR5 RAM (2GBs normally). It's used for a reason.

It's why I think Microsoft's non-standard approach (again, if rumor's are to be believed) has more to do with their overall strategy and goals rather than them focusing solely on graphical considerations.

Microsoft wanted unified memory, they wanted a LOT of it for their OS goals along with high performance gaming. GDDR5 is expensive, and having 4 GB of it is cost prohibitive.

Speculating here, but Microsoft probably immediately ruled out the option of GDDR5 because 2GB was never going to be enough, so they went with DDR3 and originally had 4 GB. Devs complained that they wanted more. Since most of the overall design was established, it's too late in the development process to do anything but really add more DDR3 ram instead of adding some GDDR5. Now they have 8 GB. Devs appear to be happy because Microsoft added more.

Sony, on the other hand, wasn't as focused on OS features, so they probably went in with the idea that 2 GB of GDDR5 would be sufficient for their bandwidth/memory needs (similar to the PC world). But when Microsoft added more RAM, the disparity between 2 GB and 8 GB became too large, and devs fired back with complaints. Thankfully, Sony listened (or appeared to).

And now we are stuck with two different memory systems for each console due to a philosophic difference in goals and design from the onset of the project's scope.

It's why I don't really believe aegies' claim that devs universally picked 8GBs of DDR3 because that's what Microsoft has gone with. Sony could have done the same, but they didn't. Reality probably is that devs are happy that Microsoft increased their RAM after having earlier dev kits with less RAM, but it's not as though they're giving any indication as to what they'd prefer when it comes to extremely fast, but lower quantity, RAM versus slower RAM/higher quantity. They're simply happy they now have more RAM to work with.

We haven't really heard anything yet from devs regarding Sony's increase in RAM and the implications it has vs. Durango, and even aegies admits that the devs he's spoken to aren't fully aware of what's going on with Sony's system. So he's comparing dev's comments of one system where there's more complete data with another system that's been largely in the dark in comparison.