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[UnemployedVillain]

Probably the most interesting article I've read all year. It makes me feel a bit...conflicted. I know on here I've been quick to dismiss people who support certain views (and "people"), despite knowing that taking the time to bridge the gap of understand could help them change their opinions. It's tough, requires a lot of work and patience, and there's no guarantee all your efforts will amount to anything. It's nice seeing someone who's been indoctrinated for TWO DECADES have a short college experience unravel it all. Honestly it's beautiful.

But, I have to say, I can understand why a person like Derek would be so receptive to that unraveling, and others might not be.

For one, he comes across as fairly intelligent, and thoughtful, with most of his arguments being based on logic. This obviously isn't the same for everyone immersed in that movement, which can make a difference. He could be swayed by scientific evidence and studies, without instantly assuming they were suspect of some "liberal agenda".

Second, he grew up in a very insular environment, being homeschooled and having his family values heavily mix with his political ones. This might have made it harder, initially to separate what he truly believed vs his love for his family. It's even possible his family was a larger motivator in his belief than any internal logic he developed himself to support it.

Lastly, he was immersed into, what sounds like, an incredibly liberal environment away from home. Most people involved in the movement are essentially stuck in an echo chamber of their environment, never leaving or being forced out of their comfort zones. They're given small splashes of liberal ideology instead of being thrown in to the pool and forced to adapt for the sake of survival.

But seriously, the article was incredible

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

The most potent argument in favor of education and inclusiveness there could be. Not everyone will respond well to friendly overtures, but the victories are each worth it.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Probably the most interesting article I've read all year. It makes me feel a bit...conflicted. I know on here I've been quick to dismiss people who support certain views (and "people"), despite knowing that taking the time to bridge the gap of understand could help them change their opinions. It's tough, requires a lot of work and patience, and there's no guarantee all your efforts will amount to anything. It's nice seeing someone who's been indoctrinated for TWO DECADES have a short college experience unravel it all. Honestly it's beautiful.

But, I have to say, I can understand why a person like Derek would be so receptive to that unraveling, and others might not be.

For one, he comes across as fairly intelligent, and thoughtful, with most of his arguments being based on logic. This obviously isn't the same for everyone immersed in that movement, which can make a difference. He could be swayed by scientific evidence and studies, without instantly assuming they were suspect of some "liberal agenda".

Second, he grew up in a very insular environment, being homeschooled and having his family values heavily mix with his political ones. This might have made it harder, initially to separate what he truly believed vs his love for his family. It's even possible his family was a larger motivator in his belief than any internal logic he developed himself to support it.

Lastly, he was immersed into, what sounds like, an incredibly liberal environment away from home. Most people involved in the movement are essentially stuck in an echo chamber of their environment, never leaving or being forced out of their comfort zones. They're given small splashes of liberal ideology instead of being thrown in to the pool and forced to adapt for the sake of survival.

But seriously, the article was incredible

Indeed. Him deciding to do something different that he never had done before (going to liberal school over something else) was the beginning. Extraordinary things occurred in his life all ways, especially concerning the group who decided to stick with him.

 

[Memento_Mori15]

Hate to echo what already has been said but what a fantastic article. Thanks for posting this OP.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

That was mind boggling. How could that not be automatic life imprisonment?

Heh hear the full story
http://thedollop.libsyn.com/136-bayou-of-pigs

But Jews are in power in the US now?

Not really but some stuff changed when to bolster numbers the white men in power re-lumped the other European immigrants together

 

[Neo C.]

I think it's fair to say that guys like Derek aren't very common, even among liberals: Smart, curious and open minded enough to question his very core belief.

 

[TestOfTide]

This is a pat theory, in that it's entirely self-reinforcing. If you treat people as irredeemable, they'll rarely disappoint you.

Except I already said that the point isn't to try and change what deplorables believe. The point is to make them uncomfortable with expressing their bigotry.

These are deplorable old creatures we are talking about. The best thing you can hope for is to successfully put psychological muzzles on them.

The kid in the article was young enough to eventually redeem himself, but the dad who founded Stormfront is absolutely beyond help.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I think it's fair to say that guys like Derek aren't very common, even among liberals: Smart, curious and open minded enough to question his very core belief.

Smart, curious and open minded people are very common. Young people have a lot of energy when it comes to getting outside of the shell that their family provided them, and just doing things different. It's just that when you get older....it fades. Or in this guys situation, it took some key circumstances.

 

[ilium]

Fascinating read, thanks for sharing!

 

[TestOfTide]

I think it's fair to say that guys like Derek aren't very common, even among liberals: Smart, curious and open minded enough to question his very core belief.

Actually they do exist, but they are rarely social conservative types. The inclusiveness of social liberalism tends to almost always come with open minded approaches to disagreements.

 

[Jake.]

it amazes me that his mother (chloe) still has a job as an "executive assistant" considering how many times she has been mentioned in the press over the years.

 

[Caelus]

I've decided to use this amazing article as a source for my final documentary theatre project. After analyzing the article very carefully and cutting bits of dialogue to use in my performance, I began to tear up. I want to give Derek Black a hug, his shift in ideology is beautiful and emotionally resonant, and his story is a compelling argument towards making every attempt we can to change minds and hearts, especially in younger people.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

So this is like a real life version of American History X.

Spoiler

Except without the curb-stomping and prison rape.

 

[Polari]

Matthew is the real hero of the story. You combat hate by actively trying to change people's beliefs rather than by ostracising or belittling them. Actively trying to change people's beliefs doesn't mean accepting them, but engaging them in a dialogue.

 

[Sera O]

Matthew is the real hero of the story. You combat hate by actively trying to change people's beliefs rather than by ostracising or belittling them. Actively trying to change people's beliefs doesn't mean accepting them, but engaging them in a dialogue.

The article says that the dinner invite from Matthew and his friends came at a time when Derek may have had no other avenues for friendship. I wonder if being invited in at that moment would have been as effective as it was if it hadn't been made clear by the rest of the student body that those Stormfront connections made him socially unacceptable. There was a push and pull here.

The open discussion and inclusiveness played a huge role for sure, and Derek's temperament did too in that he was open to evidence-based arguments. But, at the same time, the loneliness he was experiencing because of his views may have provided a huge incentive to question them once he was welcomed into the dinner group. Openness to other points of view would have been made more attractive simply because it might allow him to form more social attachments rather than be completely isolated. He didn't have many options at that juncture.

But yeah, Matthew and friends were heroes for sure, and this article is a really thought-provoking read.

 

[EnlightenedMint]

My curiosity got the best of me, so I went to see if there was anything about it on Stormfront and there's a thread about it with his father posting how he has Stockholm syndrome with other posters assuring him he will snap out of it eventually.

Shit is crazy.

 

[Palette Swap]

The article says that the dinner invite from Matthew and his friends came at a time when Derek may have had no other avenues for friendship. I wonder if being invited in at that moment would have been as effective as it was if it hadn't been made clear by the rest of the student body that those Stormfront connections made him socially unacceptable. There was a push and pull here.

The open discussion and inclusiveness played a huge role for sure, and Derek's temperament did too in that he was open to evidence-based arguments. But, at the same time, the loneliness he was experiencing because of his views may have provided a huge incentive to question them once he was welcomed into the dinner group. Openness to other points of view would have been made more attractive simply because it might allow him to form more social attachments rather than be completely isolated. He didn't have many options at that juncture.

But yeah, Matthew and friends were heroes for sure, and this article is a really thought-provoking read.

Yeah, that's the draw of the article: it isn't an nth lesson that pontifies about what people should do, following this particular 100% efficient blueprint to acceptance and understanding. It's all about the human element, who all these people are, their life stories, their ambiguities, and how the right people at the right time can bring about unexpected results.

Don't get me wrong, I deeply believe understanding, empathy and inclusiveness are key to pretty much everything, but when people focus only on Matthew's (fantastic) actions, they kind of deny Derek's agency in his journey or how much his own isolation at the time played a role. These virtues we're all extolling are an obvious lesson here, but there are so many more layers to this story.

I've been catching up on Saslow's other stories, including his amazing series on food stamps, and that's really the common denominator: bottom up reporting of complex issues where rather than being left with platitudes and injunctions, you get an exploratory look at the subject under unique angles. He's not telling you how you should feel or think about an issue, he's trying to expose as many layers as possible through the lens of human stories.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is incredible.

 

[Atenhaus]

Oh great, another thread were folks put the onus is on the oppressed to change the oppressors. Fuck that.

...Really? Nice drive-by shitpost there.

Why would you completely disregard someone's obviously transformative experience from being literally groomed to take the helm of a major white nationalist organization who has likely never ever fucking been presented with an opposing viewpoint without it being bathed in an incredibly negative light to a well-adjusted person who has truly shown the propensity to change into a decent person despite his upbringing?

I'm Jewish and I'm incredibly proud of Matthew Stevenson's actions. He's a bigger person than the majority of us posting in this thread and I admire him greatly for it.

 

[Neo C.]

Smart, curious and open minded people are very common. Young people have a lot of energy when it comes to getting outside of the shell that their family provided them, and just doing things different. It's just that when you get older....it fades. Or in this guys situation, it took some key circumstances.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I think most people just want to live in their bubble, regardless of their political view.

 

[kirblar]

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I think most people just want to live in their bubble, regardless of their political view.

Spotify has found that around age 33, the average person stops listening to new music/genres.

I don't think it's a stretch to carry that over into political views - people can change, but it gets rough once they're out of their youth.

 

[FStop7]

Stories like this and the Prussian Blue girls breaking away from white supremacy give me a lot of satisfaction.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I remember reading about him a few years ago, so it's nice to see a great article to show how far this dude has come. It's just too bad most of them don't share his curious mind, or more empathetic disposition.

 

[sphagnum]

Stories like this and the Prussian Blue girls breaking away from white supremacy give me a lot of satisfaction.

Just imagine how /pol/ would react if they had started today rather than a decade ago.

 

[JustenP88]

Man, I wish I had whatever it is that Matthew has.

 

[enzo_gt]

Fantastic article, thanks for sharing.

 

[ant_]

Spotify has found that around age 33, the average person stops listening to new music/genres.

I don't think it's a stretch to carry that over into political views - people can change, but it gets rough once they're out of their youth.

I'm sorry but that is a huge stretch. Like, an absolutely huge stretch.

 

[Litan]

I'm sorry but that is a huge stretch. Like, an absolutely huge stretch.

How so?

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Spotify has found that around age 33, the average person stops listening to new music/genres.

That is insane to me. I never want to stop discovering new music. Spotify specifically has been great for that very reason. I guess my Discover Weekly won't be as useful soon..

 

[ant_]

How so?

Music taste isn't something which engages in rational thought. When people think about the music they enjoy, it mostly has to do with how it 'feels' to them. It's about feeling and intuition. You can't rationally convince someone that their taste in music is wrong.

Political views are intuitive at first but they evolve as one ages. Political views are mainly a byproduct of personal experience and views. In fact, a good chunk of people are known to change their political views as they age (the common conceit is that people get more conservative as they get older). Political views can generally be influenced, albeit very slowly, by rational thought and discourse.

Political views are something nested in rational thought and discourse that requires factual statements to support. Music taste is much more personal and it's much harder to dispute/make people change their mind.

 

[Sera O]

Yeah, that's the draw of the article: it isn't an nth lesson that pontifies about what people should do, following this particular 100% efficient blueprint to acceptance and understanding. It's all about the human element, who all these people are, their life stories, their ambiguities, and how the right people at the right time can bring about unexpected results.

Don't get me wrong, I deeply believe understanding, empathy and inclusiveness are key to pretty much everything, but when people focus only on Matthew's (fantastic) actions, they kind of deny Derek's agency in his journey or how much his own isolation at the time played a role. These virtues we're all extolling are an obvious lesson here, but there are so many more layers to this story.

Yeah the article does a great job of presenting a multifaceted view of the situation and the people that contributed to the change. I am also interested in how the white nationalists identifying as iconoclasts may actually have made Derek less inhibited about rejecting his family's values once he found they didn't hold up to logic. If you're raised to see being a renegade as brave, maybe it's easier to rebel again in the opposite direction later on. This, along with confidence, sense of responsibility and self-assurance that the community instilled in him from a young age helped guide his growth and may have empowered him later on to go his own way in spite of opposition.

There is also the way the "movement" seemed to see him, and the way he preferred to present himself, was as the smart, rational, well-reasoned future of white supremacy. I wonder if this was a big source of conflict for him. If those descriptors were important parts of how he saw his identity, being called ignorant or closed-minded by his peers on the message board or whatever might have been more influential than just being disliked for his opinions alone.

 

[Sobriquet]

Thanks OP for posting a great article. WaPo killin' it lately.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Derek just posted an op-ed in the NYT, which is a great companion piece to the WaPo article:

I never would have begun my own conversations without first experiencing clear and passionate outrage to what I believed from those I interacted with. Now is the time for me to pass on that outrage by clearly and unremittingly denouncing the people who used a wave of white anger to take the White House.

Much has been made of the incoherence of Mr. Trump’s proposals, but what really matters is who does — and doesn’t — need to fear them. None of the ideas that Mr. Trump has put forward would endanger me, and I once enthusiastically advocated for most of what he says. No proposal to put more cops in black neighborhoods to stop and frisk residents would cause me to be harassed. A ban on Muslim immigration doesn’t implicate all people who look like me in terrorism. Overturning Roe v. Wade will not force me to make a dangerous choice about my health, nor will a man who personifies sexual assault without penalty make me any less safe. When the most powerful demographic in the United States came together to assert that making America great again meant asserting their supremacy, they were asserting my supremacy.

That is the opening for those of us who disagree with Mr. Trump. It’s now our job to argue constantly that what voters did in elevating this man to the White House constitutes the greatest assault on our own people in a generation, and to offer another option.

It's eloquent, powerful stuff.

 

[capitalCORN]

Derek just posted an op-ed in the NYT, which is a great companion piece to the WaPo article:







It's eloquent, powerful stuff.

Wow, he stuck to it. And he's at the forefront. Good stuff.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

Derek just posted an op-ed in the NYT, which is a great companion piece to the WaPo article:







It's eloquent, powerful stuff.

He paints a very reasonable picture of what it takes to address the kind of person he once was, without making any excuses for that way of thinking.

Hopefully he manages to convince more people through his own example.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Derek Black has my endless respect.

 

[Protein]

Necrobump, but a podcast episode interviewing Derek Black is up on The Daily (NY Times podcast).

Tuesday, Aug. 22, 2017
Derek Black left the white nationalist movement that he had been poised to help lead, betraying his father, a former grand master of the Ku Klux Klan. Today, we talk with him about the events of the past year. For more information on today's episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

https://www.nytimes.com/podcasts/the-daily?mcubz=1

 

[PudieRSC]

I listened to that while making dinner today. It's one of the better episodes The Daily has had IMO. Amazing insight both into that world and current events.

The Daily as a whole is a fantastic podcast.