Some of you people are spewing absolute madness. This is one of the reasons people have flocked to powerful PCs over consoles, it's not a damn buzzword.
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Were 8 and 16-bit games 60fps?
- Thread starter MercuryLS
- Start date
baphomet
Member
Fps have been a big topic in games for longer than some people on this board have been alive.
Because 30fps looks like dogshit in most cases. Some have low/no standards so dogshit looks like filet mignon to them.
For console, it WAS progressive images. Not interlaced.
At sub-SD resolution (SNES was mostly 256x224). But progressive and 60Hz.
Despite how hard I'm being on some people I don't think being 30 FPS is inherently bad, but I do find it disappointing when it's deemed ok in genres where it really shouldn't be with the hardware power we have now like racing, and it's doubly bad if it's more "we'll be 30 FPS at least half the time!" rather than "we're going for a rock solid 30 FPS."
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
I played console games for 10+yrs and never once did I think about 'framerates' then in 2006 (aged 34) when I got internet joined a forum then I heard about frame rates didn't care then don't really care now
Because with the new console generation more people have seen games run at 60FPS and realized it's the only way you should play.
superchunk
Member
lol I've never paid attention then or now. Just play the game.
Dark Octave
Banned
No it was far from 60fps.
I don't remember any games being 60fps back then because they were all hand drawn, besides Starfox of course.
entremet
Member
Practically all sprite based games did of the NTSC displays.
Responsiveness was important in early gaming and still today, so yes. Then polygons came in and computing power wasn't as high to provide 60FPS in current hardware--see Starfox.
Responsiveness was important in early gaming and still today, so yes. Then polygons came in and computing power wasn't as high to provide 60FPS in current hardware--see Starfox.
FPS is not only for polygons. It's also for sprites too. It's just the vast majority were so need to qualify.
Although, later consoles did specifically output images for 60fps 480i, sending a new frame for each field with an even/odd line offset; it usually looks and feels nearly as good as a native 480p60 image would.
Not true. TJ&E is 60 fps.
Portugeezer
Member
No.
More like some people just don't want to accept the truth that not every developer will make their games 60fps.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
One of the biggest threads when I joined GAF back in 99 was Sonic Adventure dropping below 60fps for most of the game.
petran79
Banned
at that time 60 fps were only feasible on a computer monitor.
Eg in 1994 if you had a 1 MB SVGA card, you could run Doom 2 at 60 fps
I remember the motion was very smooth when compared to console games. Same for Jazz Jackrabbit 1 and other MS-DOS games.
Consoles were limited by PAL and NTSC.
Eg in 1994 if you had a 1 MB SVGA card, you could run Doom 2 at 60 fps
I remember the motion was very smooth when compared to console games. Same for Jazz Jackrabbit 1 and other MS-DOS games.
Consoles were limited by PAL and NTSC.
Portugeezer
Member
They were all 50fps
Dark Octave
Banned
The only kind of animation I remember being 60fps back then was maybe Mode 7 games? Most games had three frames per animation. Maybe Mortal Kombat was the most fluid non-Mode 7 game I can remember.
Maybe I'm missunderstanding how a sprite based game can be 60fps?
I don't think you know what that word means.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Notable Genesis games that were 30 fps or below.
Beyond Oasis (the Saturn sequel was 60 fps)
Chakan: The Forever Man (Same could be said for a number of Sega of America games)
Almost all of EA games(Road Rash, their sports titles, etc)
Practically all of their forward scrolling games (Space Harrier 2, Galaxy Force 2, etc. Actually I'd go as far to say they run at 15 fps or less)
Notable +/- 30 fps NES games
River City Ransom
Double Dragon (the sequels too IIRC)
Star Fox
Certain games tend to drop frame-rates for the mode 7 sections (Super Star Wars Trilogy)
Notable +/- 30 fps SNES games
Super Double Dragon
Neo Geo
Metal Slug (and not much else)
That's just off the top of my head. Undoubtedly there are quite a few more but it's minuscule compared to every subsequent generation.
Beyond Oasis (the Saturn sequel was 60 fps)
Chakan: The Forever Man (Same could be said for a number of Sega of America games)
Almost all of EA games(Road Rash, their sports titles, etc)
Practically all of their forward scrolling games (Space Harrier 2, Galaxy Force 2, etc. Actually I'd go as far to say they run at 15 fps or less)
Notable +/- 30 fps NES games
River City Ransom
Double Dragon (the sequels too IIRC)
Star Fox
Certain games tend to drop frame-rates for the mode 7 sections (Super Star Wars Trilogy)
Notable +/- 30 fps SNES games
Super Double Dragon
Neo Geo
Metal Slug (and not much else)
That's just off the top of my head. Undoubtedly there are quite a few more but it's minuscule compared to every subsequent generation.
It never ran at 60 even. It's 30 fps max.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
I have a gaming PC that can play any game at 60fps; but the 60fps fapping is annoying.
I prefer a thousand times a constant framerate than a high framerate; if the framerate is low but constant, the game is absolutely playable, even in the low 20fps; if the game has a high but inconstant framerate, then you'll notice it and it disturbs the gameplay.
Obviously best is high constant framerate (thank for adaptative Vsync); but high frame rate means shit if it dips frequently, even if it's 120 fps and dips to 90; I'll take that constant 30fps any day.
I prefer a thousand times a constant framerate than a high framerate; if the framerate is low but constant, the game is absolutely playable, even in the low 20fps; if the game has a high but inconstant framerate, then you'll notice it and it disturbs the gameplay.
Obviously best is high constant framerate (thank for adaptative Vsync); but high frame rate means shit if it dips frequently, even if it's 120 fps and dips to 90; I'll take that constant 30fps any day.
sixteen-bit
Member
"Most" of the game? SA was 30 fps...
KojiKnight
Member
Even if the sprites were only made of 4-6 sprites of animation, you'd have smooth scrolling on backgrounds. You also have effects that happen to sprites where the frame rate mattered ("glowing" and "transparency" effects were often handled by switching a sprite on and off every other frame).
Speaking for myself, I prioritise gameplay over graphics and I prefer to play with the extra responsiveness that 60fps affords. As not all games are equal, I don't think it should be mandatory across the board, but the idea of beat em' ups, racing games and others being 30fps, doesn't sound particularly fun to me.
I challenge people to pick a game like the recent Shadow Warrior remake, and to flick back and forward between 30 and 60. The difference it makes to responsiveness and overall fun of the game is massive.
I think just as cameras, picture ratio or even the choice to use colour, should all be decided on from a movie to movie basis, there shouldn't be one standard with games. It's whatever helps accomplish the overall vision best. But people who say the improvement of 60fps to gameplay is marginal at best, are either being deliberately ignorant or don't know what they're talking about.
Grinchy
Banned
IMO the people discussing 60fps as if it were some new phenomena are people who are new to understanding what a framerate is in the first place. And there are lots of them on the forum, so it seems like it's a new discussion. But it isn't.
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
There's no limit in SA2 PC, but the game logic speed increases accordingly. Maybe it could be modded to work.
lensoftruth
Member
KojiKnight
Member
You can't "fake" framerate through emulation... especially on older systems where even a slight difference in timing can cause games to completely not work (which is one of the reasons why it took 15 years for SNES emulators to gain "full" compatibility). The best you could do is run the game at double speed, but I'd imagine that would be quite hard to play
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, that's why the cinematic experience was so hard to achieve in the nes/snes era.
The low number of frames in an animation has nothing to do with the framerate. It's mostly a memory issue (you could only fit so much sprites in a cart).
If you take a fighting game, for example, the sprites were moving 60 times per second, even if the same sprite was displayed 20 times in the same exact stance. You had smooth motion, even if the animation was not smooth.
Even if the sprites churn through frames of animation at a low framerate, the sprites themselves can move at a high framerate.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Increasing the frame-rate on older console games tends to be a bad idea. Sure we have the hardware to do so, but this tends to result in messed-up timings, glitches, and a host of other nasty issues.
When Sega emulates their games they tend to stick to the original frame-rate (Panzer Dragoon 1 on the PS2, Dynamite Deka, NiGHTs, etc)
When Sega emulates their games they tend to stick to the original frame-rate (Panzer Dragoon 1 on the PS2, Dynamite Deka, NiGHTs, etc)
Hatty
Member
Thats nice and all but just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean that its worthless and that it shouldn't be talked about. Anything that makes the game play better is important.
60 fps is alright, but it's no 120 fps.
Indeed. But was there 16bits consoles capable of that? I'm interested...
It's probably not doable. 16bits games actually wait for the blanking signal (screen refresh) to set the pace of the game. You would actually need to rewrite the source code.
I'm pretty sure it's a blanking signal buf that made a couple of races in PAL Mario Kart 64 run at... twice the speed (Mew mew farm, DK Jungle and Bowser castle IIRC. Really fun, but strange...)
This is a really elegant explanation that connected a few unconnected dots in my head. Thanks!
hamdammage
Member
For a lot of us who discovered gaming with the 8/16-bit systems, just about all of the good games were at 60fps.
The original Super Mario Bros. wouldn't be the classic it is today if it didn't go at 60fps. 60fps means double the number of user inputs per frame which means games running at 60fps just flat out feels better than games that didn't.
As a kid, I didn't really think about framerates until I started running into games that didn't go at 60fps. A lot of American Genesis games, Ikari Warriors and Log-G man for the nes. One thing they have in common is that they all feel like crap to play.
The original Super Mario Bros. wouldn't be the classic it is today if it didn't go at 60fps. 60fps means double the number of user inputs per frame which means games running at 60fps just flat out feels better than games that didn't.
As a kid, I didn't really think about framerates until I started running into games that didn't go at 60fps. A lot of American Genesis games, Ikari Warriors and Log-G man for the nes. One thing they have in common is that they all feel like crap to play.
can someone explain to me why PAL territories went with err PAL in the first place? Should have just copied the US for 60hz. Not just for games but for TV as well.
lensoftruth
Member
Yes, as they can be in a 3D engine too.
Man, I'm not sure about THAT though I'd need to experience it for myself, I have to imagine once you're going past 60 FPS the drops will be much less jarring than between lower FPSes like 60 to 45, nevermind once G-Sync enters the equation. But I can agree somewhat at least with the general point: I'm not sure I'd strictly take 30 FPS over a fluctuating 30-60, probably depends on how bad the fluctuations even ARE, but I can be as happy with a rock solid 30 as with the fluctuating FPS. It's when we're going between 10-30 or whatever and being VERY noticeable about it (or the trade off just seems to be bad) that I get annoyed. Maybe holding 60 FPS as what consoles should be now is too idealistic, but I definitely think we have the power that we should leave the 20 FPS range in the 32-bit era where it belongs.
Dark Octave
Banned
Oh god I feel stupid. The backgrounds and effects, duh. The bit about the same frame still reporting in at 60fps is new to me though.
Thanks guys.
PAL actually has advantages compared to NTSC, in particular for TV.
It's not just a forum issue. I remember very well endless discussions in magazines between F-Zero X and most others racers on N64 like Extreme G.
F-Zero X was barren (no backgrounds, nearly nothing besides track and cars) to ensure 60Hz where most (all?) others used 30Hz.
Chie Satonaka
Member
hamdammage
Member
For the price in framerate, I believed they gained in resolution.
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