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[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

No reason other than the mental/emotional/physical pain, the suffering, the emotional toll, the amount of time that needs to be invested, the high costs, the need to throw one's body off balance hormonally, the medical procedures that can go horribly wrong, the physical issues that can't be fixed with hormones or pills, the legal procedures, the chaos transitioning can cause even in the lives of people who have fantastic support systems, and so on.




I'm all for having less diversity in the world if it means an entire group of people aren't suffering through something needlessly. And this condition IS ABSOLUTELY "seriously debilitating" to some people, and current 2017 treatments are still akin to trying to fix an arm that's been cut of with duct tape and aspirin. We're nowhere near the point where the post-birth transitioning options are genuinely satisfactory, or actually fixes for some individuals.




Guess what: people can still play with gender roles all they want—cis people do it all the time. Nothing would stop people from identifying as non-binary if that's what they truly want.




Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. In the same breath, I'd also say that I'd love to see a world with no deaf people (since that was brought up)—because it'd mean that nobody is having to suffer through that physical defect. Same with people who are blind. Same with people in wheelchairs because of non-functioning limbs. Losing all of that "diversity" is great in my book if it means people are living better lives.

Oh lord, no it isn't.

It's obviously not the same thing when comparing people who are non-binary for whatever trans reasons, and people who just decide that they want to live that kind of lifestyle. The point still stands that there'd be nothing stopping the blurring of gender lines in a world without trans people, simply that it'd come from actual desire and not deep-seeded disconnecting inside of someone.

There's nothing to apologize for. This is a deeply personal topic, and everybody entering into it—including myself—comes at it with some level of selfishness. That's human nature.

The best solution—and this I think goes to also answering your questions about your own situation—is that there's multiple solutions, not one. It's felt like some of the posts in this thread have been either/or in terms of fixing being trans pre-birth and increasing social acceptance, but those are both part of the same answer, not separate answers. Any "fix" as is being addressed in the OP wouldn't be overnight, so the solution would be more acceptance of trans people, better resources for helping them in whatever ways science and technology currently can, AND a true in utero solution (so long as, again addressing my first post, we know the true causes for being trans).

And even then, enacting all of those fixes doesn't cover everyone. But that's also where the conversation can get uncomfortable: what if that WOULD be the fix for someone like you? If there's something that gets broken inside us to switch the way we identify versus the way we're expected to identify, couldn't that also be the cause of people who then have even deeper and more complex gender identity issues? As I mentioned in my reply to Platy, my wish for the world would be that someone like you lives in an ambiguous gender existence because you want to, not because that's the only way to live your life. I want you to have the freedom to explore those things, but also the ability to just be "regular" for whatever length of time you choose to be without it being a mental/emotional strain on you.

I don't want to be trans—but the me that exists in this moment wouldn't have wanted to just been a regular guy. But I feel that way because of whatever caused me to be trans, so if that hadn't existed in the first place, I'd probably feel great about being a regular guy. But then me being that would mean the me that exists here and now would no longer exist, and I've kind of come to like this me. But I'm the me that I am now because I've had to go through things I wish I hadn't have had to go through.

It's a hugely complex discussion that deals with the premise of changing who we currently are with a "fix" where there's compelling arguments on both sides. It's not ever going to be an easy conversation to have.

How society deals with transgender people is in no way the only cause of those things. For example, you can experience all of that and more because of being trans when you don't even understand that you're trans due to having that disconnect inside of you.




I absolutely think "mental illness" is a potential explanation for people being transgender. The problem is, you say that, and there's instantly a stigma attached to that statement because of some of the other conditions that also fall under that umbrella. For me, though, it makes the most sense that something about the brain's wiring got put together in a way it wasn't supposed to—as in, the brain was set to develop one way while the body goes another route. The question then is is the brain set the wrong way—thus it being a mental illness of sorts—or is the brain the one set correctly and the body's switch was flipped the wrong way, thus a problem of physical development?

Really fascinating topic: I much prefer to take the sidelines, read and get something out of than participate (sometimes you just gotta listen to learn something)

 

[TFlat]

From my current position mid transition I don't think I'd be too into the idea of being "corrected" into being a cis male from birth, rather I'd want to get the transition process under way as soon as possible. But then again if this correction happened from birth I would never know in the first place...

With transition I'll never be 100% physically female but being trans is part of who I am, I don't particularly want to cancel that out cause it's not the norm. I'd rather have society and attitudes towards gender smashed up so people stop giving a shit about how people present themselves first.

Yeah being trans fucking sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but these are the cards we are dealt and makes us who we are in the present...

 

[disappeared]

Just shy of a year into transitioning (mtf) and you couldn't pay me a million dollars to be a man anymore.

Now, if you're telling me that in a hypothetical 1985 where science was so advanced they could have foreseen my shift into being female and the doctor said, "okay we'll just press a few buttons here (hypothetical 1985 science) and voila, she's a girl!" I would be ecstatic. That's a future I hope for trans children going forward. But yeah science is a loooong way off from that I think.

 

[Platy]

When I talk to you is not a mouth or finger talking to another finger or mouth. It is a brain talking to another brain.

Brains are who we are. If you say the problem is who we are, than you are saying we are not what we are, so it means that if you think trans men ARE men than you can't think the problem is in the brain.

 

[Two Words]

As a cis male, I think I can try to answer this from the opposite direction. If when I was in the womb, it was clear that I would be transgender mtf, and my parents chose to do some therapy to make me as I am today, I would not be upset about it. I would be happy I guess, mainly because it seems like transgender have it rough in a number of ways.

 

[Stuart444]

The only thing I can say on this topic and it might be an ignorant or naive thing to say but I'd be for anything that would help people experience less harm in the world. Transgender people seem to have it pretty hard.

So yeah, that's my take on it I guess.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Just shy of a year into transitioning (mtf) and you couldn't pay me a million dollars to be a man anymore.

Now, if you're telling me that in a hypothetical 1985 where science was so advanced they could have foreseen my shift into being female and the doctor said, "okay we'll just press a few buttons here (hypothetical 1985 science) and voila, she's a girl!" I would be ecstatic. That's a future I hope for trans children going forward. But yeah science is a loooong way off from that I think.

No, the suggestion is that they could've detected that you'd be born with gender dysphoria, and waved their science wand to make you a cis boy.

Which yes, means he wouldn't be you. But if this intervention is taking place prenatally (or even a short time postnatally), that's fine IMO. Nobody exists on purpose. A tiny quirk of fate could've caused a different sperm to hit that egg and you'd be a different person, too.

 

[TheCthultist]

Really fascinating topic: I much prefer to take the sidelines, read and get something out of than participate (sometimes you just gotta listen to learn something)

You learn a lot about the people in here during discussions like this. As much as I'd like to input my opinion on the topic, I'm far more interested in seeing the actual discussion play out as is; rather than adding another voice to it that'd essentially be echoing a few other opinions anyway.

 

[CrocMother]

What if we had a pre-natal cure for people being hateful bigots? I think I'd prefer that.

 

[Earthstrike]

When I talk to you is not a mouth or finger talking to another finger or mouth. It is a brain talking to another brain.

Brains are who we are. If you say the problem is who we are, than you are saying we are not what we are, so it means that if you think trans men ARE men than you can't think the problem is in the brain.

As I'm sure you are aware, any hypothetical technology that could pre-emptively "cure" transgenderism, would most likely affect the hormonal contents of the blood supply to the womb. The whole issue here is that there are theoretically multiple brains that could develop (With the differences having to do with the amygdala). If we treat them all as being equally valid, is there value in choosing the path that minimizes suffering?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I absolutely think "mental illness" is a potential explanation for people being transgender. The problem is, you say that, and there's instantly a stigma attached to that statement because of some of the other conditions that also fall under that umbrella. For me, though, it makes the most sense that something about the brain's wiring got put together in a way it wasn't supposed to—as in, the brain was set to develop one way while the body goes another route. The question then is is the brain set the wrong way—thus it being a mental illness of sorts—or is the brain the one set correctly and the body's switch was flipped the wrong way, thus a problem of physical development?

If a cis woman identifies as a woman we don't consider the brain diseased.

Trans is clear a physical development because our bodies don't make us our brains do. A trans woman's brain born in a female body becomes a cis gender brain.

That's your take away? Discussing the elimination, hypothetically, of a person having to change their body in order to be who they are, and all the emotional and psychological pain related to that, is people desparately wanting trans people to not exist?

Technically, the answer is yes. Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me having to transition just to feel normal is a rather unnecessary step in living one's life.

Ummm but if we change the brain they will never be who they were... they will be who the body is.

You make me a cis man instead of a trans woman and I'm not me anymore

As I'm sure you are aware, any hypothetical technology that could pre-emptively "cure" transgenderism, would most likely affect the hormonal contents of the blood supply to the womb. The whole issue here is that there are theoretically multiple brains that could develop (With the differences having to do with the amygdala). If we treat them all as being equally valid, is there value in choosing the path that minimizes suffering?

Can you not call it Transgenderism... you make it sound like a disease.

Also that term is basically only really popular in Anti-Trans places.