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[WaterAstro]

When I first saw the announcement, I thought, isn't this more bad than good for transsexuals? Sure, transsexual wouldn't be treated like some illness or a stigma, but now they won't get medical support.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I don't know. But for one, it treats our histories like fodder. I was born male. I was socialized as a boy. I was a boy. The people who say were "assigned" a gender, and that they were never their birth sex scare me. It comes across as delusional at best, and dangerous at worse. As said in the thread about race, this opens up dangers because now anyone can claim to be anything because you were too offended at the fact that science considered what you have to be a medical condition.

Thinking back to my psychology courses (based on DSM-4), I was assigned the topic of transsexuality/gender dysphoria. I argued that lumping trans in with the gay/bi movement from a medical standpoint was misguided and unfortunate, although there was no reason to prevent trans people from finding allies and friends in those communities, of course.

My reasoning is that a gay person -- at one point considered a "mental illness" by the DSM-2 -- was capable of acting out their "born with it" sexual preference without the need for any medical intervention. Their bodies experienced all the same heterosexual symptoms of arousal without hormone therapy or replacement. They can have sexual intercourse with their preferred gender without the need of surgery. The reason why homosexuality being in the DSM didn't make much sense was because... okay, even if it is a mental condition then how is it dealt with medically? There's no reliable or medically-ethical "cure", and since that's the whole point of the DSM why is it even in there? Perhaps you can "pray the gay away" but I'm unaware of medical treatments that can successfully alter someone's sexual attraction without seriously damaging other aspects of their psyche.

A trans person is in a totally different situation. At best, they can act out their true gender through clothing choices and perhaps imitating body language and behavior of their "internal" gender (I apologize if that isn't a polite way of describing it). But without medical intervention, their condition will go untreated and a huge facet of their personality/psyche will be painfully disjointed. I don't mean this in a flippant way (because both are serious) but transsexuality seems to have more in common with something like OCD or body dysmorphia than it does with homosexuality, medically speaking.

In that sense, it genuinely is a mental disorder, but not in the sense that it needs to be corrected in the brain. Rather, the body and the Persona (to use Jung's term) needs to be altered to match the brain.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thinking back to my psychology courses (based on DSM-4), I was assigned the topic of transsexuality/gender dysphoria. I argued that lumping trans in with the gay/bi movement from a medical standpoint was misguided and unfortunate, although there was no reason to prevent trans people from finding allies and friends in those communities, of course.

My reasoning is that a gay person -- at one point considered a "mental illness" by the DSM-2 -- was capable of acting out their "born with it" sexual preference without the need for any medical intervention. Their bodies experienced all the same heterosexual symptoms of arousal without hormone therapy or replacement. They can have sexual intercourse with their preferred gender without the need of surgery. The reason why homosexuality being in the DSM didn't make much sense was because... okay, even if it is a mental condition then how is it dealt with medically? There's no reliable or medically-ethical "cure", and since that's the whole point of the DSM why is it even in there? Perhaps you can "pray the gay away" but I'm unaware of medical treatments that can successfully alter someone's sexual attraction without seriously damaging other aspects of their psyche.

A trans person is in a totally different situation. At best, they can act out their true gender through clothing choices and perhaps imitating body language and behavior of their "internal" gender (I apologize if that isn't a polite way of describing it). But without medical intervention, their condition will go untreated and a huge facet of their personality/psyche will be painfully disjointed. I don't mean this in a flippant way (because both are serious) but transsexuality seems to have more in common with something like OCD or body dysmorphia than it does with homosexuality, medically speaking.

In that sense, it genuinely is a mental disorder, but not in the sense that it needs to be corrected in the brain. Rather, the body and the Persona (to use Jung's term) needs to be altered to match the brain.

You get it.

 

[MamaRice]

Yeah, that’s what I was waiting for. Cindi. belittling me and a number of other trans people Because we aren’t the right kind of trans people and it scares her. She did that a lot before. Actually quite famous for it. I’m just going to bow out of this thread now because you guys have the trans person who is willing to validate all of your hatred of people you don’t understand .

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah, that’s what I was waiting for. Cindi. belittling me and a number of other trans people Because we aren’t the right kind of trans people and it scares her

Please expound and be specific, please.

 

[MamaRice]

Please expound and be specific, please.

No thanks. This is a dance that we have done in the past. It doesn’t actually really matter if I clarified to you exactly what kind of gender dysphoria I have. It doesn’t matter if I advocate for my non-binary friends. You will still hate them. You will still think that they are making your life and your car is which yo no thanks. This is a dance that we have done in the past. It doesn’t actually really matter if I clarified to you exactly what kind of gender dysphoria I have. It doesn’t matter if I advocate for my non-binary friends. You will still hate them. You will still think that they are making your life worse. I mean you’re already completely living in a different reality with the whole guns black people Democrat thing. You start at a good intentioned position like black people should be able to have guns to defend themselves and then you go so far into toxicity against anyone who doesn’t agree with you. I really don’t feel like having the same argument ever again. Like you come back in here and start saying all this shit about how I scare you and how all these new trannies like me are in sane and making things worse and you expect me to want to sit down and talk to you about it now. I haven’t forgotten the trans women that you’ve accused of not actually being trans. I haven’t forgotten at the times you’ve literally laughed and celebrated their misfortune because they disagree with you.

But most of all it kind of makes me sad now that because of the nature of a lot of the people on this site everything I say will be completely invalidated because you offered the exact opposite opinion pretty much 100% of the time and that’s the one they are always going to listen to because what they already believed

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Cindi Mayweather Are you sure you haven't been abducted and replaced with a body double?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

No thanks. This is a dance that we have done in the past. It doesn’t actually really matter if I clarified to you exactly what kind of gender dysphoria I have. It doesn’t matter if I advocate for my non-binary friends. You will still hate them. You will still think that they are making your life and your car is which yo no thanks. This is a dance that we have done in the past. It doesn’t actually really matter if I clarified to you exactly what kind of gender dysphoria I have. It doesn’t matter if I advocate for my non-binary friends. You will still hate them. You will still think that they are making your life worse. I mean you’re already completely living in a different reality with the whole guns black people Democrat thing. You start at a good intentioned position like black people should be able to have guns to defend themselves and then you go so far into toxicity against anyone who doesn’t agree with you. I really don’t feel like having the same argument ever again. Like you come back in here and start saying all this shit about how I scare you and how all these new trannies like me are in sane and making things worse and you expect me to want to sit down and talk to you about it now. I haven’t forgotten the trans women that you’ve accused of not actually being trans. I haven’t forgotten at the times you’ve literally laughed and celebrated their misfortune because they disagree with you.

But most of all it kind of makes me sad now that because of the nature of a lot of the people on this site everything I say will be completely invalidated because you offered the exact opposite opinion pretty much 100% of the time and that’s the one they are always going to listen to because what they already believed

How are they not making things worse? They're radicals! You want to kill gender. You said yourself that gender is obsolete! How are you *not* a threat? I want to exist within the binary.

 

[MamaRice]

How are they not making things worse? They're radicals! You want to kill gender. You said yourself that gender is obsolete! How are you *not* a threat? I want to exist within the binary.

Calm down girl. I expressed a personal desire for the roles of male and female to no longer be existen I expressed a personal desire for the rules of male and female to no longer be existent. I know it’s not actually going to happen. And you can stop saying they and start saying you because you are talking about me remember. You think I am a radical and I am dangerous and I am making your life worse. Well the feeling is mutual.

It just really upsets me that you’re going to be on here validating all the misconceptions and ignorance is about gender that so many right wing people on the site have and they are going to completely disregard the fact that you are an incredibly toxic hurtful person who has been openly hateful and mocking of so many people Just trying to live their lives.

I guess since it’s OK to just accuse each other of been insane since you already did it to me I can also expressed that I think you have a lot of big issues that go much deeper than your gender.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Calm down girl. I expressed a personal desire for the roles of male and female to no longer be existen I expressed a personal desire for the rules of male and female to no longer be existent. I know it’s not actually going to happen. And you can stop saying they and start saying you because you are talking about me remember. You think I am a radical and I am dangerous and I am making your life worse. Well the feeling is mutual.

It just really upsets me that you’re going to be on here validating all the misconceptions and ignorance is about gender that so many right wing people on the site have and they are going to completely disregard the fact that you are an incredibly toxic hurtful person who has been openly hateful and mocking of so many people Just trying to live their lives.

I guess since it’s OK to just accuse each other of been insane since you already did it to me I can also expressed that I think you have a lot of big issues that go much deeper than your gender.

1. I do not hate non-binary people. I'm pretty accepting of them and I'm friends with a couple which has helped me understand them more. What I am, if anything, is critical of the current non-binary movement. I do not think all non-binary people are actually non-binary, however. This belittles the needs and care for actual non-binary people. I also find the inherent mixing of trans and non-binary principles to be potentially dangerous because many cannot tell the difference between the two. I don't think it's wrong to articulate that many people who say they're non-binary or trans these days are confused and merely think they are because both have gotten more coverage.

2. I would never demean your dysphoria. I'm pretty open with regards to this.

3. My main criticism isn't the existence of NB people or even new trans people, but how they obfuscate being trans and make it a social thing. Our priorities are completely different. I transitioned because dysphoria gave me panic attacks. A lot of the things that people on your end are articulating sure sound like a threat to those of us on the medical end. They say things like "end gender" when many of us just want to go stealth and forget we are trans. You however embrace being trans. It's a war between two mindsets and things are getting complicated because we are all playing a bad game of telephone through a nearly broken string. Which is why we don't understand each other and why we don't want to understand each other.

4. I now know who you are. I think.

I'm perfectly capable of dialogue and I'm willing to try if you are.

Let's lay all our cards on the table in a peaceful, rational manner. Let's drop the insults, the snide jokes (exclusively on my end), assumptions, and judgements and just talk. Give it a shot. I know I need to work on communicating without being a belligerent ass, and I'm sorry.

 

[Corderlain]

This some tumblr ass shit

 

[MamaRice]

1. I do not hate non-binary people. I'm pretty accepting of them and I'm friends with a couple which has helped me understand them more. I do not think all non-binary people are actually non-binary, however. This belittles the needs and care for actual non-binary people. I also find the inherent mixing of trans and non-binary principles to be potentially dangerous because many cannot tell the difference between the two. I don't think it's wrong to articulate that many people who say they're non-binary or trans these days are confused and merely think they are because both have gotten more coverage.

2. I would never demean your dysphoria. I'm pretty open with regards to this.

3. My main criticism isn't the existence of NB people or even new trans people, but how they obfuscate being trans and make it a social thing. Our priorities are completely different. I transitioned because dysphoria gave me panic attacks. A lot of the things that people on your end are articulating sure wound like a threat to those of us on the medical end. They say things like "end gender" when many of us just want to go stealth and forget we are trans. You however embrace being trans. It's a war between two mindsets and things are getting complicated because we are all playing a bad game of telephone through a nearly broken string. Which is why we don't understand each other and why we don't want to understand each other.

4. I now know who you are. I think.

I'm perfectly capable of dialogue and I'm willing to try if you are.

Let's lay all our cards on the table in a peaceful, rational manner. Let's drop the insults, the snide jokes (exclusively on my end), assumptions, and judgements and just talk. Give it a shot. I know I need to work on communicating without being a belligerent ass, and I'm sorry.

Yeah you probably do know who I am. I can simplify it for you. You’re the black Blair White. I’m the black contrapoints.

More than anything I wish that people could read our conversation and see that just like everyone else trans people have completely different views on their identities and their issues and everything else in the world and they are completely normal people like everyone else. Oh but I know that probably scares you because I treat transgenderism as anything but a horrible disease.

There have been camps of people with our different ideologies and believes for hundreds and hundreds of years. There have been people like you and there have been people like me.

Point blank I do not think the problem and “epidemic” of all these people who are just confused or want to be trendy and spoiling the conversation isn’t nearly as big of a problem as you and so many others think it is. Yes they do exist. But I literally have never had a single conversation with a right-leaning person in regards to gender that is not constantly hyper obsesaed with that one specific thing. So many on the right don’t actually care to have those conversations.

Look what the fuck do you want Cindi? You realize that the only thing that’s going to happen is you in validating this huge boogie man is just going to lead to anyone who declares them self non-binary getting more hatred and dismissal from the people you said it to. You didn’t clarify that you actually have non-binary friends and some of them really are non-binary until I called you out on it. Would if I had never come back into this thread to challenge you? You never would’ve apologized and it would’ve just been left with a bunch of insults and total dismissal and no one reading this would have any reason to not side with you completely in thinking that non-binary people are total bullshit, which is how your original reply to me absolutely sounded.

You’re saying all the stuff about how we can be civil and we can talk this out but what are we even talking out? I don’t think this is as big a problem as you think it is and I don’t think there’s anything that needs to be done about it and we should be focusing on all the other millions of more important trans issues.

There are non-binary people that still need help and still need support and still need acceptance. I know you know that. I literally can’t have a single conversation with a person on the right without it turning to “WHAT ABOUT ALL THE FAKERS”

It’s tiring

 

[MamaRice]

It would be like every time someone talk about anorexia and bulimia they felt the need to spout fearmongering about all the girls and women who don’t actually have body dysphoria and are just pretending to have those body issues. Yeah, those women exist too. But the fear mongering is much more dangerous and just leads to all the women who have legitimate issues and try to express them getting ignored and belittled by people who want validation for already believing that it’s bullshit

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah you probably do know who I am. I can simplify it for you. You’re the black Blair White. I’m the black contrapoints.

I like that.

Throw me a bone. I just want to be cool with each other without any hostility. Although you are water to my oil, we are both black trannies. The most we can do is understand and respect one another. That's all I want.

 

[MamaRice]

I like that.

Throw me a bone. I just want to be cool with each other without any hostility. Although you are water to my oil, we are both black trannies. The most we can do is understand and respect one another. That's all I want.

Yeah bitch you only like it because I made you the hot one

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah bitch you only like it because I made you the hot one

Contra is looking good these days actually, bb. Smoochie, smoochie.

It would be like every time someone talk about anorexia and bulimia they felt the need to spout fearmongering about all the girls and women who don’t actually have body dysphoria and are just pretending to have those body issues. Yeah, those women exist too. But the fear mongering is much more dangerous and just leads to all the women who have legitimate issues and try to express them getting ignored and belittled by people who want validation for already believing that it’s bullshit

....You're right. I'm not saying it's every single person but I understand why you would think I feel that way because I do concentrate on trenders a lot. But let's be clear. The trenders do not mean that it's not real. It absolutely is and I refuse to say it isn't. My concern is that trenders make things harder for trans people in the day to day. I have a serious issue with being trans seen as....a lifestyle choice. Something to be used and turned on/off whenever someone chooses. For us it's our lives. I have a big problem with that. I also think that a lot of trenders aren't knowingly doing it. I think they legitmately feel they're trans. I've talked to detransitioners and many actually thought they were trans. I think this is important to share so we can not only understand how to help people, but give trans people better care. Isn't that what both you and I want? Let's say a woman transitions and thinks she's male, but it turns out she had a completely different issue? Imagine her devastation when she goes back to being female with permananent changes to her body? This not only hurt her but it also potentially puts the trans community at risk. How do we know a case like this won't lead to some medical malpractice lawsuit and this leads to even tighter trans care which makes it even harder to get medical care? Those are my concerns. I'm supportive of all trans people, but I truly fear that a lot of people on the social end are potentially playing with fire for very respectable and caring reasons.

But you're right when it's not good to lump all of them together like that. I'm sorry for doing it.

 

[MamaRice]

Contra is looking good these days actually, bb. Smoochie, smoochie.



....You're right. I'm not saying it's every single person but I understand why you would think I feel that way because I do concentrate on trenders a lot. But let's be clear. The trenders do not mean that it's not real. It absolutely is and I refuse to say it isn't. My concern is that trenders make things harder for trans people in the day to day. I have a serious issue with being trans seen as....a lifestyle choice. Something to be used and turned on/off whenever someone chooses. For us it's our lives. I have a big problem with that. I also think that a lot of trenders aren't knowingly doing it. I think they legitmately feel they're trans. I've talked to detransitioners and many actually thought they were trans. I think this is important to share so we can not only understand how to help people, but give trans people better care. Isn't that what both you and I want? Let's say a woman transitions and thinks she's male, but it turns out she had a completely different issue? Imagine her devastation when she goes back to being female with permananent changes to her body? This not only hurt her but it also potentially puts the trans community at risk. How do we know a case like this won't lead to some medical malpractice lawsuit and this leads to even tighter trans care which makes it even harder to get medical care? Those are my concerns. I'm supportive of all trans people, but I truly fear that a lot of people on the social end are potentially playing with fire for very respectable and caring reasons.

But you're right when it's not good to lump all of them together like that. I'm sorry for doing it.

And I don’t want you to think that I am completely ignoring that these people exist and need help of their own, and especially education and communication. But it’s really hard to do that when you have so many disingenuous actors who just want to talk about how it’s all bullshit and there’s all these fakers and they all just need to shut up...

I think you would agree that even a person who isn’t actually trans even though they think they are should be called a faker or have their concerns belittled or ignored.

I am really sick and tired of people copying and pasting the list of all the different random gender identities people have come up with. It adds NOTHING, helps NO ONE, and is done simply to say “see??! Society is going to far and we need to push back against this and all of these people are crazy!!”

I’m honestly really glad that you and I have been able to come to some kind of understanding for literally the first time ever.

And you’re right about Contra. I’m proud of her. And I’d probably hit it.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

And I don’t want you to think that I am completely ignoring that these people exist and need help of their own, and especially education and communication. But it’s really hard to do that when you have so many disingenuous actors who just want to talk about how it’s all bullshit and there’s all these fakers and they all just need to shut up...

I think you would agree that even a person who isn’t actually trans even though they think they are should be called a faker or have their concerns belittled or ignored.

I am really sick and tired of people copying and pasting the list of all the different random gender identities people have come up with. It adds NOTHING, helps NO ONE, and is done simply to say “see??! Society is going to far and we need to push back against this and all of these people are crazy!!”

I’m honestly really glad that you and I have been able to come to some kind of understanding for literally the first time ever.

And you’re right about Contra. I’m proud of her. And I’d probably hit it.

That's true. We might have taken a legitimate concern and went too far with it.

"I think you would agree that even a person who isn’t actually trans even though they think they are should be called a faker or have their concerns belittled or ignored."

You're not wrong at all. I don't think that should happen at all. At the same time, how do we make it so that trans people aren't treated like a costume?

I use the list to show how far gone some people on the social side are. Where it feels like they're making up genders. My friend and I actually made up a gender, submitted it to tumblr, and it was treated as real. Yeah, I get that it can lead to mockery. I did that earlier today in fact, which was asshole-ish of me. But you get the concern right? If anyone can identify as anything or make up their own gender then it puts the common trans person into the same category. How is the average person supposed to know the difference? Can you admit that there's certainly an element in extreme radicalism in the tumblr set?

A lot of people in my camp find it to be an existential threat. Which is why we go ham like I did earlier. In order for us to move forward your side has to convince us that it's not an existential threat.

Would you hit Blair?

I think we are able to find common ground now because we're not surrounded by people that want us to duke it out or try to pressure us into thinking one way.

 

[MamaRice]

That's true. We might have taken a legitimate concern and went too far with it.

"I think you would agree that even a person who isn’t actually trans even though they think they are should be called a faker or have their concerns belittled or ignored."

You're not wrong at all. I don't think that should happen at all. At the same time, how do we make it so that trans people aren't treated like a costume?

I use the list to show how far gone some people on the social side are. Where it feels like they're making up genders. My friend and I actually made up a gender, submitted it to tumblr, and it was treated as real. Yeah, I get that it can lead to mockery. I did that earlier today in fact, which was asshole-ish of me. But you get the concern right? If anyone can identify as anything or make up their own gender then it puts the common trans person into the same category. How is the average person supposed to know the difference? Can you admit that there's certainly an element in extreme radicalism in the tumblr set?

A lot of people in my camp find it to be an existential threat. Which is why we go ham like I did earlier. In order for us to move forward your side has to convince us that it's not an existential threat.

Would you hit Blair?

I think we are able to find common ground now because we're not surrounded by people that want us to duke it out or try to pressure us into thinking one way.

I’d hatefuck Blair.

Wait... you really did that on tumblr? Ok Cindi... so that’s harmful too! And really messed up. And if anyone on the right can and probably HAS done that, I don’t think it’s fair to the actual gender confused people to get lumped into that bullshit.

This feels like all the crazies that create fake BLM accounts on twitter and spout anti-white rhetoric to make them seem like a bigger problem...

Like we can say “ yeah well the problem comes from people being to accepting of every different kind of identity” but I think it’s more a problem with the internet.

I’m realizing now that you say all this that so much of what’s going on is a result of the technology we have access to and the same kinds of problems are having with so many other issues and disingenuous actors and people with legitimate problems being ignored and the truth becoming clouded and nobody agreeing and being able to have a conversation.

I’m not sure how we can fix all that as a society.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I’d hatefuck Blair.

Wait... you really did that on tumblr? Ok Cindi... so that’s harmful too! And really messed up. And if anyone on the right can and probably HAS done that, I don’t think it’s fair to the actual gender confused people to get lumped into that bullshit.

This feels like all the crazies that create fake BLM accounts on twitter and spout anti-white rhetoric to make them seem like a bigger problem...

Like we can say “ yeah well the problem comes from people being to accepting of every different kind of identity” but I think it’s more a problem with the internet.

I’m realizing now that you say all this that so much of what’s going on is a result of the technology we have access to and the same kinds of problems are having with so many other issues and disingenuous actors and people with legitimate problems being ignored and the truth becoming clouded and nobody agreeing and being able to have a conversation.

I’m not sure how we can fix all that as a society.

I don't disagree with a single word you said. To be fair, we were testing to see if it'd work. You make me feel bad for doing it though.

Would you hate fuck black Blair White? =( It'd get it out of our systems.

 

[LordRaptor]

A lot of people in my camp find it to be an existential threat. Which is why we go ham like I did earlier. In order for us to move forward your side has to convince us that it's not an existential threat.

Would you say that your reaction to non dysphoric trans is similar to a trans-exclusionary feminists reaction to trans in general?
Namely that that you feel it cheapens a struggle a group has made independently with people that don't meet your criteria attaching themselves to it?

No disrespect intended, I'm merely curious.

 

[MamaRice]

I don't disagree with a single word you said. To be fair, we were testing to see if it'd work. You make me feel bad for doing it though.

Would you hate fuck black Blair White? =( It'd get it out of our systems.

Yeah, since we’ve mended and found common ground... you may have been turning me on a little bit... in a “damn this fucking bitch” bite my lip and grumble kind of way

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Would you say that your reaction to non dysphoric trans is similar to a trans-exclusionary feminists reaction to trans in general?
Namely that that you feel it cheapens a struggle a group has made independently with people that don't meet your criteria attaching themselves to it?

No disrespect intended, I'm merely curious.

Yes, I do. And you don't realize how awful it makes me feel to say that but it's how I feel.

Yeah, since we’ve mended and found common ground... you may have been turning me on a little bit... in a “damn this fucking bitch” bite my lip and grumble kind of way

It's a date.

 

[MamaRice]

Would you say that your reaction to non dysphoric trans is similar to a trans-exclusionary feminists reaction to trans in general?
Namely that that you feel it cheapens a struggle a group has made independently with people that don't meet your criteria attaching themselves to it?

No disrespect intended, I'm merely curious.

Don’t want to speak for Cindi, but TERFs are absolutely hateful people, not real feminists that completely disregard all trans women as not women. They think it’s rooted in biology.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah, I feel like I have to shower for even saying yes to that question.

 

[LordRaptor]

Don’t want to speak for Cindi, but TERFs are absolutely hateful people, not real feminists that completely disregard all trans women as not women. They think it’s rooted in biology.

I don't want to start a thing, but I think its unfair to say they're not 'real' feminists, they just have a different perspective on the struggles they have had to do so.
Like... there are certain biological factors at play that have shaped womens lives that it would be impossible to fully understand without being a biological woman.

I disagree with their position, but I do have some sympathy for the reasons why they hold it.
Again, I apologise in advance for any offence in the way that is phrased. I'd already have copped a ban 'elsewhere' for whataboutism / disingenuity / bad faith / 'just asking questions' etc

Yeah, I feel like I have to shower for even saying yes to that question.

Yeah, sorry, I know TERFs are a touchy subject, but - outsider looking in - that's what your viewpoint appeared to be.

 

[TrainedRage]

Just want to say this thread has been quite enlightening to a cis guy. I respect both Cindi and Mama for having this discussion and answering all our ignorant questions.

 

[MamaRice]

I don't want to start a thing, but I think its unfair to say they're not 'real' feminists, they just have a different perspective on the struggles they have had to do so.
Like... there are certain biological factors at play that have shaped womens lives that it would be impossible to fully understand without being a biological woman.

I disagree with their position, but I do have some sympathy for the reasons why they hold it.
Again, I apologise in advance for any offence in the way that is phrased. I'd already have copped a ban 'elsewhere' for whataboutism / disingenuity / bad faith / 'just asking questions' etc



Yeah, sorry, I know TERFs are a touchy subject, but - outsider looking in - that's what your viewpoint appeared to be.

I can say that hateful bigots and literal Nazis are motivated mostly by ignorance, and shaped by their experiences. They choose to express it by limiting, disregarding and in many cases directly attacking.

And the worst part is the won’t accept what they are. They’ll willing call themselves a radical feminist that doesn’t think trans women are women, but if you call them a TERF, they say “that’s a slur!” A lot of them try to call themselves PERFs. They even go to pride rallies and hold up signs about “taking the T out of LGB”.

I’d think many on this site would agree that if you claim to espouse an ideaology of equality, you shouldn’t be deciding “all women deserve equality.... except those ones.”

I understand that many here also believe that feminists aren’t really equallists but rather only interested in uplifting women. Well that’s not the kind a feminist that I and the people I associate with our her and we think TERFs are some of the biggest scum on the Internet.

I’m not trying to attack you for your opinions or line of questioning just stating my perspective

 

[LordRaptor]

I’m not trying to attack you for your opinions or line of questioning just stating my perspective

No, not at all. As I say, I;m an outsider looking in, and this is a question of intellectual curiosity for me.
For you and Cindy its your life.
Which is why I do not want either of you to take inadvertent offence for me misusing terms or not fully understanding a point of view - I have a level of detachment that you don't, but this is an entirely civilised discourse so far, imo.

A radical anything is going to be pushing the boundaries of what most people consider acceptable; only history decides whether they were on the right side of progress or a reactionary dinosaur.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

I can say that hateful bigots and literal Nazis are motivated mostly by ignorance, and shaped by their experiences.

thats every person in the world. everyone is shaped by their experiences and what they dont know. mamarice i dont hate you but man you cannot explain yourself well. like at all

 

[MamaRice]

thats every person in the world. everyone is shaped by their experiences and what they dont know. mamarice i dont hate you but man you cannot explain yourself well. like at all

You're the only person I've talked to so far on the forum that's had trouble understanding anything I've said.

And so far, you are the only person that I've had trouble understanding on the forum.

I think you might be the problem, hun.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

You're the only person I've talked to so far on the forum that's had trouble understanding anything I've said.

And so far, you are the only person that I've had trouble understanding on the forum.

I think you might be the problem, hun.

nope people get me just fine. im sure you get me you just dont want to