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[Cindi Mayweather]

Note: I refuse to use the word transgender in this thread. I refuse to acknowledge their ideology. Also, I could have never written this thread at some other site without being banned for "transphobia".



Additional source: https://www.health.com/sexual-health/transgender-mental-illness

I am a transsexual woman. I was born male and transitioned to female in my late 20's.

Being trans is a medical disorder and arguably a mental illness. De-medicalizing it presents many problems for trans people and potentially makes situation dangerous for those of us who are trans that depend on medical treatment.

Here are facts of the situation:

1. Transition is seen as medically necessary for trans people. Research shows that transition tremendously helps the mental well being of transsexual men and women. Hormones are considered by many to be life saving medicine. Things like FFS (facial feminization surgery), and SRS (sexual reassignment surgery aka THE surgery) are also seen as things that lend to better mental well being.
2. Therefore, these changes are not cosmetic. They are purely medical and psychological in nature.
3. De-medicalizing trans people makes it seem that we are normal. If we do not suffer from a medical disorder we do not need medical treatment.
4. Insurance companies could render use of hormones (which are life saving medicine) and surgeries to be purely cosmetic.
5. These things are not cosmetic and save lives.
6. Insurance companies already - even before this change by WHO - denied care to transsex people because our life saving surgeries (especially FFS) were seen as cosmetic when, if someone notices that flaw on your face, they might clock you as trans and beat the shit out of you or discriminate against you in some other manner.
7. Therefore, de-medicalizing trans people potentially puts trans people at risk. An insurnace company has no reason at all to provide care if all the psychological orgs in the world conclude that you are not suffering from a medical condition.

The only people fighting for this are people who are offended at the idea that being trans is considered a medical condition (despite the fact that we go to the pharmacy to pick up medicine to treat it). They have essentially put the entire community in danger because they didn't like being offended. Many of these people take on the moniker of "queer". But whereas they embrace the word that is defined to be,"strange, odd, out of the ordinary, abnormal" they posit that being trans isn't a medical condition but something normal and common.

They endanger us all just to make themselves feel better. Thankfully there are many with me who are fully aware of the ramifications.

Hopefully Trans Goddess Ann Coulter is one of them.

 

[mr2xxx]

Can you elaborate on why you consider Ann Coulter a trans Goddess? Because she had no problem banning transgender people from the military because she doesn't want the public to pay for their transition.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Can you elaborate on why you consider Ann Coulter a trans Goddess? Because she had no problem banning transgender people from the military because she doesn't want the public to pay for their transition.

It's a joke. The joke is that Ann Coulter is trans because she looks like she is.

 

[MamaRice]

It's a joke. The joke is that Ann Coulter is trans because she looks like she is.

Just curious, Cindi. You agree with my stance that transition is oftentimes a medical neccessity as a treatment for the "mental illness" of gender dysphoria. How do you feel about it being provided by insurance companies, and the military?

 

[mr2xxx]

It's a joke. The joke is that Ann Coulter is trans because she looks like she is.

Since this place has taken a more conservative bent it gets harder to tell. But for what it's worth I agree that transgender people should have easier access to these operations.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Since this place has taken a more conservative bent it gets harder to tell. But for what it's worth I agree that transgender people should have easier access to these operations.

Great. Please ask any trans person you know that supports de-medicalization if they've truly thought out the full ramifications it could have on the community and our access to medicine.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

i thought there was a lot of regret and depression when people get the gential surgery. also is it more to change the category of what its called kind of to appease people in todays social, i dont know, climate. changing the name of something doesnt help it if its truly a mental issue but i dont know enough about transgender itself to make a claim or anything. clearly its some kind of phenomena and it seems that theres a lot more m2f than f2m when it comes to trans people so i dont think thats some kind of coincidence

 

[MamaRice]

Great. Please ask any trans person you know that supports de-medicalization if they've truly thought out the full ramifications it could have on the community and our access to medicine.

I would imagine the logic WHO is going by is that classification as a mental illness encourages people to believe it is something that should be "cured" and "mitigated" rather than "treated". You and I both know that transition is basically the only treatment. But as you said yourself, it was already getting denied coverage, and many people were calling it a mental illness because what they really are saying is that it needs to be suppressed, corrected, and not encouraged.

You seem to have partially taking this stance in your disparaging of and aversion to the trans identity.

 

[MamaRice]

i thought there was a lot of regret and depression when people get the gential surgery. also is it more to change the category of what its called kind of to appease people in todays social, i dont know, climate. changing the name of something doesnt help it if its truly a mental issue but i dont know enough about transgender itself to make a claim or anything. clearly its some kind of phenomena and it seems that theres a lot more m2f than f2m when it comes to trans people so i dont think thats some kind of coincidence

I think abuse and social stigma needs to be considered in those "regrets", which are much lower than commonly feared. A large majority of people who transition do not regret it.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

i thought there was a lot of regret and depression when people get the gential surgery. also is it more to change the category of what its called kind of to appease people in todays social, i dont know, climate.

You would think this but the regret numbers are startling small.

clearly its some kind of phenomena and it seems that theres a lot more m2f than f2m when it comes to trans people so i dont think thats some kind of coincidence

There really isn't. Our numbers are pretty even steven. It's just online you're exposed to trans women more and trans women generally need more support than trans men for many reasons obvious and not obvious. Simple case of confirmation bias.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Just curious, Cindi. You agree with my stance that transition is oftentimes a medical neccessity as a treatment for the "mental illness" of gender dysphoria. How do you feel about it being provided by insurance companies, and the military?

Insurance companies should cover it. For military, I don't support surgeries but I do for HRT.

Didn't see any of your posts before and now I suddenly do. Weird. Replying now.

 

[MamaRice]

Insurance companies should cover it. For military, I don't support surgeries but I do for HRT.

Didn't see any of your posts before and now I suddenly do. Weird. Replying now.

I'm a new member and they had to get approved. Lol I wrote a lot in a bunch of different threads.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I would imagine the logic WHO is going by is that classification as a mental illness encourages people to believe it is something that should be "cured" and "mitigated" rather than "treated". You and I both know that transition is basically the only treatment. But as you said yourself, it was already getting denied coverage, and many people were calling it a mental illness because what they really are saying is that it needs to be suppressed, corrected, and not encouraged.

You seem to have partially taking this stance in your disparaging of and aversion to the trans identity.

What do you want me to say? That it's normal? That it's something to be proud of? I wish it didn't exist. Why should I embrace something that has caused me so much pain and confusion? Why disparage it? Why not be averse? Why pride? Why have pride? I have no pride. Only a mental illness.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

well im no hater. whatever is better for people in the end im all for

 

[MamaRice]

What do you want me to say? That it's normal? That it's something to be proud of? I wish it didn't exist. Why should I embrace something that has caused me so much pain and confusion? Why disparage it? Why not be averse? Why pride? Why have pride? I have no pride. Only a mental illness.

I have pride in maintaining my sense of self, and knowing who I am, and staying strong in the face of massive discrimination and abuse from all angles. As a black woman, I would think you can at least understand that position. I certainly do not mean to say that you SHOULD absolutely feel pride, and you are a bad person if you do not. But I hope that you pay me the same respect, and don't disparage me because I choose to have pride in that identity.

I feel that if trans people can't love themselves, why should we expect anyone else to?

Personally, I don't think being "adverse" really does any good. You're trans. That's not going to change.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I have pride in maintaining my sense of self, and knowing who I am, and staying strong in the face of massive discrimination and abuse from all angles. As a black woman, I would think you can at least understand that position. I certainly do not mean to say that you SHOULD absolutely feel pride, and you are a bad person if you do not. But I hope that you pay me the same respect, and don't disparage me because I choose to have pride in that identity.

I feel that if trans people can't love themselves, why should we expect anyone else to?

Personally, I don't think being "adverse" really does any good. You're trans. That's not going to change.

I have never denied being trans. I also have not disrespected you for you having pride in it. I hope that it was not interpreted in that way. I'm also not sure what any of this of this has to do with the current topic. Isn't it a certain kind of pride to accept trans as it is - a medical condition - rather than conflate it to be something it's not to feel better about being trans? Doesn't it take a certain kind of strength to say that you have a medical condition of gender dysphoria and transsexuality? How does this disparage the trans "identity"? Does this not fully embrace it, warts and all, for what it is? Is that not truly loving yourself and accepting yourself for what you truly are more so than hiding and making it appear to be something it's not?

Also not a fan of "identity". Makes it feel like a choice. Shit's not a choice. Also don't like "identifying" as trans more than a target sex. But I have trouble understanding the transgender portion of the community in general. I'm your stone cold classical transsexual it seems, and ain't nothing changing that.

 

[MamaRice]

I have never denied being trans. I also have not disrespected you for you having pride in it. I hope that it was not interpreted in that way. I'm also not sure what any of this of this has to do with the current topic. Isn't it a certain kind of pride to accept trans as it is - a medical condition - rather than conflate it to be something it's not to feel better about being trans? Doesn't it take a certain kind of strength to say that you have a medical condition of gender dysphoria and transsexuality? How does this disparage the trans "identity"? Does this not fully embrace it, warts and all, for what it is? Is that not truly loving yourself and accepting yourself for what you truly are more so than hiding and making it appear to be something it's not?

Also not a fan of "identity". Makes it feel like a choice. Shit's not a choice. Also don't like "identifying" as trans more than a target sex. But I have trouble understanding the transgender portion of the community in general. I'm your stone cold classical transsexual it seems, and ain't nothing changing that.

I hear you, and I admit that I pushed the conversation in the direction of your comments about the "trans identity" and your aversion to it as a whole.
In my opinion, while in a perfect world, I'd love to just be classified by the target gender I know I am, it's never going to happen. It's never going to have that level of acceptance, at least not in my lifetime. Me being "trans" is the reality. Not a choice at all. I choose to be open about the fact that I am.

I'm an aspiring filmmaker. A friend of mine linked me to a fellowship seeking trans filmmakers, that would give stipends and resources to learn and produce small films. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of my trans identity to get the fellowship. To be willing to say "yes I am trans, and it has shaped my perspective on life". I hope you aren't against things like affirmative action.

In a perfect world, affirmative action wouldn't need to exist. But this is not a perfect world. The deck is stacked. and I think it ties back to the original topic of conversation, labeling and identifying it as a mental illness, that is does need to be identified, period. If I want the medical treatment, I have to go to doctors, I have to be examined, and I have to be psychologically analyzed. And they have to say "yes we think you are trans." and I have to say back, "You're right. I am trans." That is an identity. I am shaped by the abuses I've suffered. The people who have hurt and shunned me. The jobs I have been denied. And the strength of will to push through that, and keep fighting for a comfortable life anyway.

In any case, on the original topic, I don't know if it's any more than conjecture that "saying it's not a mental illness will lead to more people dismissing it as something that needs to be treated and helped. I honestly don't know how I feel on it. I would need to see/hear what WHO's position and argument is in full, and also do a lot more reading from medical professionals and trans scholars on the ruling.

 

[TrainedRage]

So is there a debate within the Trans community about if it's a disorder or not? Like is it a 50/50 split? Or do most trans people agree that it's a mental disorder? I was under the assumption that saying just because some is trans they have a disorder or illness was wrong and phobic. Am I just ignorant about this?

 

[MamaRice]

So is there a debate within the Trans community about if it's a disorder or not? Like is it a 50/50 split? Or do most trans people agree that it's a mental disorder? I was under the assumption that saying just because some is trans they have a disorder or illness was wrong and phobic. Am I just ignorant about this?

Literally everything in the trans community is a constant debate lol. I imagine it's the same for most communities and their issues.

The biggest debate in the trans community is probably "is gender real or just a social construct, or somewhere in the middle?"

 

[TrainedRage]

Literally everything in the trans community is a constant debate lol. I imagine it's the same for most communities and their issues.

The biggest debate in the trans community is probably "is gender real or just a social construct, or somewhere in the middle?"

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Literally everything in the trans community is a constant debate lol. I imagine it's the same for most communities and their issues.

The biggest debate in the trans community is probably "is gender real or just a social construct, or somewhere in the middle?"

I FEEL ATTACKED RIGHT NOW

IF GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT WHY TRANSITION AUGH

So is there a debate within the Trans community about if it's a disorder or not? Like is it a 50/50 split? Or do most trans people agree that it's a mental disorder? I was under the assumption that saying just because some is trans they have a disorder or illness was wrong and phobic. Am I just ignorant about this?

http://phineasfrogg.tumblr.com/post/99960248469/some-thoughts-on-the-truscum-v-tucute-debate

It's not 50-50. The tucutes have vocal people but we medicalists are quiet and are gaining in sizable number.

 

[Dunki]

That is exactly what I said when we had a thread about this. Now it will be almost impossible to get the insurance comapny to pay for surgeries, for therapy etc. It is ridiculous that intead of fighting the stigmata of a mental disorder/illness they just hide it under the umbrella of inclusion. We have a clear definition of what a mental disorder/illness is and it is not to exclude people from our society. We do this to get better treatment and to help people who suffer from it.

But maybe now people who thought this was a good thing here understand how damaging this is for a trans person is. Thank You Cindi Mayweather

 

[MamaRice]

That is exactly what I said when we had a thread about this. Now it will be almost impossible to get the insurance comapny to pay for surgeries, for therapy etc. It is ridiculous that intead of fighting the stigmata of a mental disorder/illness they just hide it under the umbrella of inclusion. We have a clear definition of what a mental disorder/illness is and it is not to exclude people from our society. We do this to get better treatment and to help people who suffer from it.

As long as we aren't solely blaming those trans people for this issue.

I think it's difficult for EVERYONE of ALL communities to fight the stigma of mental illness. Trump revoked an Obama bill that took guns away from people with mental illness. He is effectively doing the same thing as this conversation. Saying "no they don't actually have a problem and can totally have guns" rather than admitting that they do have a problem so they probably shouldn't have guns. And the people who use the term "mental illness" as an excuse to attack trans people, or disabled people, or bipolar people, or etc, certainly don't help.

 

[Dunki]

As long as we aren't solely blaming those trans people for this issue.

I think it's difficult for EVERYONE of ALL communities to fight the stigma of mental illness. Trump revoked an Obama bill that took guns away from people with mental illness. He is effectively doing the same thing as this conversation. Saying "no they don't actually have a problem and can totally have guns" rather than admitting that they do have a problem so they probably shouldn't have guns. And the people who use the term "mental illness" as an excuse to attack trans people, or disabled people, or bipolar people, or etc, certainly don't help.

As for the gun part I actually agree with this but not because they could be dangerous to others but rather that transsexual people are more likely to kill themselves and when I see how many people in the US are killing themselves with guns I think it is a method to protect them. But on the other hand if you want a gun in the US I bet its pretty to get one anyway.

Also Mental illness to me is nothing I would blame people for or see them as evil. Pedophilia is another one of these and as long as you do not act on it I think you need professional help as well. In Germany for example we do this much differently than in the US.

 

[MamaRice]

As for the gun part I actually agree with this but not because they could be dangerous to others but rather that transsexual people are more likely to kill themselves and when I see how many people in the US are killing themselves with guns I think it is a method to protect them. But on the other hand if you want a gun in the US I bet its pretty to get one anyway.

I definitely agree with you there. Stronger gun control would absolutely decrease trans suicides, and all suicides.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Gun control wouldn't decrease trans suicides at all and you give trans people one less avenue for protection while also claiming that we are an at risk community ripe for violence. I will train as many trans people with firearms that I can get.

 

[MamaRice]

Gun control wouldn't decrease trans suicides at all and you give trans people one less avenue for protection while also claiming that we are an at risk community ripe for violence. I will train as many trans people with firearms that I can get.

Women attempt suicide more than me, but men are much more successful because they are more likely to have, and use a gun. That's just a fact. They absolutely would decrease trans suicides. The only argument is how much of a decrease. And of the 27 trans people that were murdered in 2016, over half were from guns. Also mostly black trans woman, but I'm sure you knew that.

But yes, I know your opinion on guns is probably the most passionate of all your beliefs so I won't even bother having an argument with you about it. I will never ever be convinced that having guns makes people safer, considering we have a lot of evidence that shows the exact opposite.

You love guns, I hate them. The end.

 

[Dunki]

Gun control wouldn't decrease trans suicides at all and you give trans people one less avenue for protection while also claiming that we are an at risk community ripe for violence. I will train as many trans people with firearms that I can get.

Personally i would restrict the Gunlaw drastically to everyone but since I believe that this will never happen in America I kind of do not mention it anymore. But if I would look at statistics and see how transexual have killed themselves I bet a lot of them did it with a gun so I believe that it would decrease sucide rates but this goes also for everyone else as well. I think it is a difficult topic and I also think that many trans people are not as strong as you seem to be.

And if you love guns anyway it is hard to change your view on it. Also this should not be the topic of this thread so lets agree to disagree and move on^^

 

[Deleted member 713885]

Cindi Mayweather

Do you, as a transwomen, feel their is a large growing number of transwomen due to males with mental illness? Take for instance autism and such?
Like The Games Done Quickly type or Chris-Chan?
Like the millions of twitter users who's bio says Transwoman/my pronouns/ then goes into their wierd political affiliation, kinks etc.. then almost ALWAYS has some furry pics mixed with poorly drawn DeviantArt "Chubby transwoman with leg hair". Not to mention every hour, on the hour over the top tweets.
The idea also of men who have no luck with women using it as a tool to get close to them?

Also do you see what could be described as a rise of "Trans-trenders"
I have a teenage son and we moved to an affluent area and he tells me theirs numerous transwomen in his highschool. He says its like 'hip' currently.

Also has a friends tom-boy daughter who was 11 tell him she was trans. She said she likes girls, doesn't want to dress like a boy (cut her hair and such) but likes girls. She said she isnt a lesbian tho and instead is trans.

Guess what I'm saying is..do you think theirs alot of people in the trans community who arent in it for valid reasons?

 

[MamaRice]

Cindi Mayweather

Do you, as a transwomen, feel their is a large growing number of transwomen due to males with mental illness? Take for instance autism and such?
Like The Games Done Quickly type or Chris-Chan?
Like the millions of twitter users who's bio says Transwoman/my pronouns/ then goes into their wierd political affiliation, kinks etc.. then almost ALWAYS has some furry pics mixed with poorly drawn DeviantArt "Chubby transwoman with leg hair". Not to mention every hour, on the hour over the top tweets.
The idea also of men who have no luck with women using it as a tool to get close to them?

Also do you see what could be described as a rise of "Trans-trenders"
I have a teenage son and we moved to an affluent area and he tells me theirs numerous transwomen in his highschool. He says its like 'hip' currently.

Also has a friends tom-boy daughter who was 11 tell him she was trans. She said she likes girls, doesn't want to dress like a boy (cut her hair and such) but likes girls. She said she isnt a lesbian tho and instead is trans.

Guess what I'm saying is..do you think theirs alot of people in the trans community who arent in it for valid reasons?

I suspect after reading your post that you already have a strong opinion on this, and if Cindi doesn't give you the answer you like, you will disregard it. But if she gives you the answer you want, which I know she will because I know Cindi, you will feel vindicated.

I know you didn't ask me (and I know why), but my answer is no there are not a "lot" of people in the trans community who aren't in it for "valid reasons".

Spoiler alert: Cindi is going to agree with you and say yes, there are.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

I suspect after reading your post that you already have a strong opinion on this, and if Cindi doesn't give you the answer you like, you will disregard it. But if she gives you the answer you want, which I know she will because I know Cindi, you will feel vindicated.

I know you didn't ask me (and I know why), but my answer is no there are not a "lot" of people in the trans community who aren't in it for "valid reasons".

Spoiler alert: Cindi is going to agree with you and say yes, there are.

Alright, but why?

I mean, why not gay?

Is their a large amount of dudes faking gay due to mental reasons?
I mean, I guess we could say the metrosexual if we really wanted too.

Was has Transgenderism become the area people are being drawn to? What's the allure it has with the types I mentioned? With kids currently? Etc..

Why are PREDOMINANTLY men, certain types, rushing to it in droves currently?

 

[MamaRice]

Alright, but why?

I mean, why not gay?

Is their a large amount of dudes faking gay due to mental reasons?
I mean, I guess we could say the metrosexual if we really wanted too.

Was has Transgenderism become the area people are being drawn to? What's the allure it has with the types I mentioned? With kids currently? Etc..

Why are PREDOMINANTLY men, certain types, rushing to it in droves currently?

I think because they realize that it's who they are. I think because at this point we've had several prominent trans activists and some small bit of support that have told us, it's okay to express yourself and be who you are inside.

I think far far far less of these people are making the direct choice to be trans than you think. Most of them, an overwhelming majority are taught about what it means to be trans, and they see what it means to be trans, and say "yes, that sounds a lot like what I feel and think inside."

And honestly, it's still such an incredibly low number dude. There's a lot of people that are trans that you will never ever ever find out about. a majority have never told anyone, and never will.

 

[SatansReverence]

I definitely agree with you there. Stronger gun control would absolutely decrease trans suicides, and all suicides.

Gun control laws had zero effect on suicide rates in Australia...

 

[LordRaptor]

Isn't the underlying problem that healthcare in the US isn't considered a social right but a privilege for those who can afford it, rather than the WHOs classification?

Reducing stigma should be a good thing, I genuinely doubt the thinking was to make it easier to deny treatment for insurance companies

 

[MamaRice]

Gun control laws had zero effect on suicide rates in Australia...

Yeah I think I've read that it was basically replaced with an increase in hanging suicides? That's a terrible shame.

In any case, the suicide argument wasn't mine at first. I could easily be wrong there. I still believe that much stronger gun control would save a lot of lives.

 

[MamaRice]

Alright, but why?

I mean, why not gay?

Is their a large amount of dudes faking gay due to mental reasons?
I mean, I guess we could say the metrosexual if we really wanted too.

Was has Transgenderism become the area people are being drawn to? What's the allure it has with the types I mentioned? With kids currently? Etc..

Why are PREDOMINANTLY men, certain types, rushing to it in droves currently?

To further add context, because I feel it's important for my argument in my last reply to you:

More recent studies released in 2016 estimate the proportion of Americans who identify as transgender at 0.5 to 0.6%. This would put the total number of transgender Americans at approximately 1.4 million adults (as of 2016).

In the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey, 71 percent of respondents indicated that they had hid their gender or gender identity to protect themselves from discrimination. When faced with an official government survey asking them to disclose their gender identity, there’s no guarantee that every person who identifies as transgender will necessarily say so.

Now that was 2011. Quite a bit did change in the trans conversation in those five years. I can't say the numbers are that close, but I'm willing to be it didn't get that far.

Likewise, there may be people who know that they are transgender but have not identified as such to anybody — perhaps not even to themselves. The increases in visibility and acceptance in society are already making it easier for these people to not only come out, but to do so at younger ages, but there are still significant challenges in doing so.

I just don't get why things like bathroom laws and banning trans people from the military and the MASSIVE SCARY THREAT OF ALL THESE KIDS FOLLOWING A TREND AND WANTING TO DEAL WITH THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL STIGMA AND ABUSE THAT COMES FROM BEING TRANS, for "popularity points", when it's such a small community anyway, and most of them, and overwhelming majority, keep it to themselves.

Actually, I think it's the fact that it's such a small community is precisely why it's so easy for people to ignore the abuse they suffer. Trump himself said the community was "tiny, tiny."

*gasp* oh god that one has PURPLE HAIR! Cover your eyes!

 

[Helios]

Personally i would restrict the Gunlaw drastically to everyone but since I believe that this will never happen in America I kind of do not mention it anymore. But if I would look at statistics and see how transexual have killed themselves I bet a lot of them did it with a gun so I believe that it would decrease sucide rates but this goes also for everyone else as well. I think it is a difficult topic and I also think that many trans people are not as strong as you seem to be.

And if you love guns anyway it is hard to change your view on it. Also this should not be the topic of this thread so lets agree to disagree and move on^^

My stance on gun owning has always been that in general you shouldn't restrict them and only deny them to people with psychological issues and that a gun owner should do these tests very frequently. But I guess with WHO no longer considering this a mental disorder my argument goes out the window.

 

[Greedings]

So weird that in a thread about mental illness - or not - there's stuff about gun control. Americans make everything about guns.

 

[MamaRice]

My stance on gun owning has always been that in general you shouldn't restrict them and only deny them to people with psychological issues and that a gun owner should do these tests very frequently. But I guess with WHO no longer considering this a mental disorder my argument goes out the window.

I think you'll find this interesting. From a NY times article.

Other parts of the proposed change are stirring debate, however. The proposal would not take transgender out of the codebook altogether, but would move it into a newly created category: “Conditions related to sexual health.”
Many, but not all, advocates favor the idea of keeping transgender in the codebook in some form because the designations are widely used for billing and insurance coverage of medical services and for conducting research on diseases and treatments. But where should it go?

“I think there is a bit of a problem with the idea of putting it in a chapter on sexual health because it has nothing to do with sex,” said Dr. Griet De Cuypere, a psychiatrist at the Center of Sexology and Gender at University Hospital in Ghent, Belgium, and a board member of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. “If it’s possible to have it more separately, it would be better.”
Others have concerns about a proposal to change the name from “transsexualism” to “gender incongruence,” a name chosen to try to express “a discrepancy between a person’s experienced gender identity and their body,” said Dr. Reed, who was part of the working group that recommended the changes to W.H.O.

One problem is that “incongruence” resonates differently in different languages. “In English it sounds kind of neutral — my association is with geometry,” Dr. Reed said. “But in Spanish it sounds very bad, it sounds kind of psychotic.”
So, in Spanish, the proposal is “gender discordance,” which, he said, “in English sounds really bad.”

Language differences are only part of the issue. “The terminology is difficult because nobody likes anything,” Dr. Reed said. “People have made suggestions that have been all over the map. One of the people at one of the meetings said we could call this happy unicorns dancing by the edge of the stream and there’d be an objection to it.”

The issue is reminiscent of the change in the way homosexuality was treated in the American bible of psychiatric diagnoses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, known as the D.S.M. In 1973, the book, published by the American Psychiatric Association, changed the diagnosis of “homosexuality” to “sexual orientation disturbance,” and later to “ego-dystonic homosexuality” before dropping it altogether in 1987.
Transgender identity has changed in the D.S.M. too, classified under “sexual deviations” in 1968, “psychosexual disorders” in 1980 and “sexual and gender identity disorders” in 1994. In the fifth and most recent edition, D.S.M.-5 in 2013, the designation was changed to “gender dysphoria,” and was defined to apply to only those transgender people who are experiencing distress or dysfunction, said Dr. Jack Drescher, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst at New York Medical College, who serves on the W.H.O. working group and served on a similar working group for the D.S.M.-5.

Dr. Drescher said he supported removing the diagnosis from the D.S.M. entirely, but he noted that the I.C.D. was different because it has categories for every disease and condition, not just psychiatric ones, and retaining some code for transgender identity might be the only way for some to receive medical care. Inmates, including Chelsea Manning, have received access to hormone treatments partly based on the fact that transgender identity belongs to a medical category, Dr. Drescher said.

Dr. First said he once received a call from the Internal Revenue Service asking him, as an expert, to support the agency’s intention to challenge a tax deduction that a transgender woman claimed for gender reassignment surgery. He declined, and said cases like that would be more likely without a diagnostic category.

Karl Surkan, a professor of women’s studies at M.I.T. and Temple University, who is transitioning from female to male, agreed. He said some trans people “say homosexuality was declassified, so now this is part of our civil rights movement, without understanding that it’s wildly different.”

Mr. Surkan said gays, lesbians and bisexuals were “not sort of reliant on medical treatment in the same way that the transgender population often is. You need a code to get an insurance company to pay for something.”
In a study published Tuesday in Lancet Psychiatry, Dr. Reed and co-authors interviewed 250 patients at a clinic that provides transgender health services in Mexico City. They found that while most had felt distress related to their gender identity during adolescence, almost a fifth of them had not. And among those who felt distress or experienced dysfunction at work, home or school, most was attributed to how they were treated — being rejected or violently attacked — rather than to their gender identity itself, the authors reported.

Many had physical health problems, likely a result of living on the margins of society, because their lives followed a “slope leading from stigma to sickness,” said Dr. De Cuypere, who is the co-writer of a commentary about the study.
Similar studies are being conducted in Brazil, India, Lebanon, South Africa and France.
“I would expect to see this kind of stigmatization and violence in all the other countries,” said Dr. Reed, although he said that in France, the researchers received a slightly more laissez-faire reception.
“In France, they said, ‘Just leave us alone, we don’t need your stinking classification,’ ” Dr. Reed said. “But they live in a society where access to health care is conceptualized as a right.”

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

It's a joke. The joke is that Ann Coulter is trans because she looks like she is.

Wait. She's not? Holy shit.

OP you are saying that its a disorder yet you encourage people with disorders to own weapons? For protection maybe?

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Literally everything in the trans community is a constant debate lol. I imagine it's the same for most communities and their issues.

The biggest debate in the trans community is probably "is gender real or just a social construct, or somewhere in the middle?"

maybe im a bad guy for saying this but i feel if people really wanted to get to the bottom of this particular issue there wouldnt be a debate. i think a problem is once it becomes a social issue it muddies up the water a lot. i feel the social aspect does probably more harm than good in the way that it bring a lot of disingenuous people into the conversation.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

also why is everyone now talking about owning glocks n shit

 

[MamaRice]

maybe im a bad guy for saying this but i feel if people really wanted to get to the bottom of this particular issue there wouldnt be a debate. i think a problem is once it becomes a social issue it muddies up the water a lot. i feel the social aspect does probably more harm than good in the way that it bring a lot of disingenuous people into the conversation.

This post doesn't make any sense to me. Like I mean I literally don't get what you're trying to say. We've been debating health care in this country for decades. Does that mean we don't actually want to get to the bottom of it.

What reason do you have to believe that I'm literally LYING, and that trans people don't ACTUALLY care about these issues? Seems very unnecessarily accusatory. You're being very vague and not really making any sense.

 

[MamaRice]

also why is everyone now talking about owning glocks n shit

It's a Cindi thread. Get used to it.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

This post doesn't make any sense to me. Like I mean I literally don't get what you're trying to say. We've been debating health care in this country for decades. Does that mean we don't actually want to get to the bottom of it.

What reason do you have to believe that I'm literally LYING, and that trans people don't ACTUALLY care about these issues? Seems very unnecessarily accusatory. You're being very vague and not really making any sense.

no its pretty easy to get

 

[LordRaptor]

This post doesn't make any sense to me. Like I mean I literally don't get what you're trying to say. We've been debating health care in this country for decades. Does that mean we don't actually want to get to the bottom of it.

I think what they're saying is that there are two aspects; one medical and one social.
Where gender dysphoria as a medical condition with a treatment - gender reassignment surgery - is a medical issue, there are also people that just want to declare themselves as the opposite gender for "identity" reasons which is where the attack helicopter memes come in.
Lumping in gender dysphorics as "LGBT" as a purely social acceptance forces a medical issue to be a social one.

Apologies for use of any incorrect terminology.

 

[MamaRice]

I think what they're saying is that there are two aspects; one medical and one social.
Where gender dysphoria as a medical condition with a treatment - gender reassignment surgery - is a medical issue, there are also people that just want to declare themselves as the opposite gender for "identity" reasons which is where the attack helicopter memes come in.
Lumping in gender dysphorics as "LGBT" as a purely social acceptance forces a medical issue to be a social one.

Apologies for use of any incorrect terminology.

...Is there any medical issue that isn't also a "social" one? Nothing is "forced" to be a social issue. It's a medical issue, and this is a society. And people in that society feel differently about things, so the medical issue becomes a social one. People here have very weird roundabount ways of thinking to me. Trans people exist, and have been found, medically, so naturally, social debates are going to spring forth from their existence because people feel so wildly different about how to handle it.

It feels like people are upset that it's even a thing being talked about at all. Well, I'm right there with you that I wish we didn't have to talk about it. But gender norms and gender identity affect us in literally every area of our lives. If they didn't, then people could just be themselves and wouldn't be abused or harassed for identifying or expressing themselves as a certain way.

Like, Trump wants to ban trans people from the military. Can anyone really argue that that's the "fault" of trans people because they CHOSE to express themselves as trans and they are FORCING people to debate if they should be in the military or not? That's very unfair.

At the end of the day, the rhetoric always keeps pointing in one direction: Shut up about it.

Where does the "medical issue" of abortion begin, and "social issue" of abortion end? I'm willing to bet you that poster, and other people here do not admonish the abortion debate the same way they do the trans debate.

But it would be interesting if trans activists yelled and attacked people going into bathrooms the way religious people do to people going into planned parenthood.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

...Is there any medical issue that isn't also a "social" one? .

yikes.

 

[Dunki]

maybe im a bad guy for saying this but i feel if people really wanted to get to the bottom of this particular issue there wouldnt be a debate. i think a problem is once it becomes a social issue it muddies up the water a lot. i feel the social aspect does probably more harm than good in the way that it bring a lot of disingenuous people into the conversation.

you can not get to the bottom of it. There is no explanation except some people have gone so fucking crazy to be different that they use everythinng to separate themselves as much as possible. When you look at some of the gender defintions we have today or some people beleive to have I just think WTF

For sexuality alone:
Allosexual- When you are not asexual (attracted to at least one gender)
Androsexual- Being attracted to masculine gender presentation
Gynosexual- Being attracted to feminine gender presentation

Perioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientation targets the same gender (for example being heteromantic and heterosexual or being biromantic and bisexual)
Varioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientations do not target the same set of genders (for example being heteromantic and bisexual or being homoromantic and pansexual)
Heteronormative- The belief that hetersexuality is the norm and that sex, gender, sexuality, and gender roles all align


WHAT

And the gender ones....

Genderfluid- Moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity
Agender- Not identifying with any gender. Sometimes referred to as being genderless or gendervoid
Bigender- Identifying as two genders, commonly (but not exclusively) male and female. Sometimes you feel like both genders at the same time and sometimes you fluctuate.
Polygender- When you identify with multiple genders at once. Sometimes referred to as multigender.
Neutrois- When you identify as agender, neither male nor female, and/or genderless
Gender Apathetic- When you really do not identify nor care about any particular gender. You are fine passing off as whatever and you really do not have an opinion towards your own gender.
Androgyne- This term overlaps a lot between gender identification and presentation. It can be used to describe others and as an identification. This term is used to describe people who are neither male nor female or are both male and female. Basically anyone who does not fit into a binary gender category.
Intergender- Somebody who's gender is somewhere between male and female
Demigender- When you feel as if you are one part a defined gender and one or more parts an undefined gender. Terms can include demigirl, demiboy, demiagender, ect.
Greygender- Somebody with a weak gender identification of themselves
Aporagender- Somebody with a strong gender identification of themselves that is non-binary
Maverique- A non-binary gender that exists outside of the orthodox social bounds of gender
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term
Designated gender- A gender assigned at birth based on an individuals sex and/or what gender society percieves a person to be

This is where the attackhelicopter meme comes from....

Also waht do you call this?


Look you can be what you want but do not force your believess on others.

We have max 4 gender:
Male
Female
Transmen
Transwomen

Thats it and even that could be debatable....

 

[MamaRice]

you can not get to the bottom of it. There is no explanation except some people have gone so fucking crazy to be different that they use everythinng to separate themselves as much as possible. When you look at some of the gender defintions we have today or some people beleive to have I just think WTF

For sexuality alone:
Allosexual- When you are not asexual (attracted to at least one gender)
Androsexual- Being attracted to masculine gender presentation
Gynosexual- Being attracted to feminine gender presentation

Perioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientation targets the same gender (for example being heteromantic and heterosexual or being biromantic and bisexual)
Varioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientations do not target the same set of genders (for example being heteromantic and bisexual or being homoromantic and pansexual)
Heteronormative- The belief that hetersexuality is the norm and that sex, gender, sexuality, and gender roles all align


WHAT

And the gender ones....

Genderfluid- Moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity
Agender- Not identifying with any gender. Sometimes referred to as being genderless or gendervoid
Bigender- Identifying as two genders, commonly (but not exclusively) male and female. Sometimes you feel like both genders at the same time and sometimes you fluctuate.
Polygender- When you identify with multiple genders at once. Sometimes referred to as multigender.
Neutrois- When you identify as agender, neither male nor female, and/or genderless
Gender Apathetic- When you really do not identify nor care about any particular gender. You are fine passing off as whatever and you really do not have an opinion towards your own gender.
Androgyne- This term overlaps a lot between gender identification and presentation. It can be used to describe others and as an identification. This term is used to describe people who are neither male nor female or are both male and female. Basically anyone who does not fit into a binary gender category.
Intergender- Somebody who's gender is somewhere between male and female
Demigender- When you feel as if you are one part a defined gender and one or more parts an undefined gender. Terms can include demigirl, demiboy, demiagender, ect.
Greygender- Somebody with a weak gender identification of themselves
Aporagender- Somebody with a strong gender identification of themselves that is non-binary
Maverique- A non-binary gender that exists outside of the orthodox social bounds of gender
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term
Designated gender- A gender assigned at birth based on an individuals sex and/or what gender society percieves a person to be

This is where the attackhelicopter meme comes from....

Also waht do you call this?


Look you can be what you want but do not force your believess on others.

We have max 4 gender:
Male
Female
Transmen
Transwomen

Thats it and even that could be debatable....

Personally I subscribe to the theory that gender is a constantly evolving spectrum, rooted in both biological and social construct, and the large amount of variety of identity comes from a need to express oneself in a human culture that puts emphasis on labels and puts a LOT of emphasis on binary gender roles in nearly all aspects of life. In other words, we wouldn't need all these different terms if people stopped saying things like "THERE ARE ONLY THIS AMOUNT OF GENDERS. YOU ARE ONE OF THESE THINGS AND YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. YOU MUST BE CLASSIFIED AS ONE OF THESE THINGS AND IT WILL AFFECT YOU IN EVERY AREA OF YOUR LIFE."

Several of those identities you claim don't exist (I suspect without actually doing any research on the subject) have had some small (I emphasize small) scientific research put into them. Specifically things like Agenderism and Bigenderism. I'm not arguing that those concepts are rooted completely in scientific fact.

But I am absolutely arguing that the historical evidence that supports that people of nonbinary and gender non-conforming identity have existed in many many cultures over thousands and thousands of years, and recently, we have some evidence to support that there may be some mental and biological links in the brain to contribute, and not nearly enough research has been done on the subject.

But you strike me as a "this is stupid so there's no reason to waste money doing research on it" kind of guy.

So around and around debating between two sides that will never ever change their mind we go....