The challenges in NSMBU (and even coin rush modes in NSMB2, though not as good) fill that role very well.
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What Mario can learn from Mania
- Thread starter Mr.Fletcher
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The challenges in NSMBU (and even coin rush modes in NSMB2, though not as good) fill that role very well.
whitemex88
Member
Music music music music. The New Mario series has had some shit ass music.
This isn't even remotely true. Hell, Sonic 4 Episode I to Episode II demonstrates more of a difference in art style than the entire New Super Mario Bros line, let alone throwing in stuff like the Advance games or Rush, or even Sonic CD in terms of stages.
Even in 3D, Sonic's gone from Sonic World/R, to Adventure, to 06, to Unleashed, to Lost World, to Boom whilst Mario went from 64, to Sunshine, to Galaxy, to 3D Land/World... these are all mostly logical progressions with better tech, but both Unleashed, Lost World and Boom are far less so than any of Mario's games.
Magicpaint
Member
Agreed.
Nintendo has made enough 2D platformers which are quite experimental with aesthetics and sound from which a new 2D Mario can draw inspiration from. What makes Mania sort of fresh is actually the nostalgia effect. It looks pretty much like the Genesis/Megadrive Sonic games which is a very refreshing thing in the context of the overall franchise.
Why would you do that?
Member
I feel like that post-Genesis Sonic games started going off into a bad direction. That led to fans making new Sonic games based on old ones that ended up being better than what SEGA was making, which in turn led to Sonic Mania. Mania is great, but it is great because it's a throwback that taps into the old games. It doesn't really do much of anything new or surprising gameplay-wise, outside of some stage gimmicks (my favorite of which is the chemicals in the chemical zone) and some cool bosses, especially THAT boss, lol. The game is successful because it revisited what made Sonic great back in the 1990s.
Nintendo, on the other hand, sent 2D Mario in a GOOD direction post-16 bit era, with New Super Mario Bros. Wii and U being some of the best in the series. They are new games, through and through, with new powers, abilities, surprises, and ideas that reach beyond simple stage gimmicks, and collectively, the NSMB series feels like a very worthy successor to the old 2D Mario games. The problem, however, is that all the games in the NSMB series are similar to one another gameplay-wise, graphically, and especially musically. So by the time we got to Mario U, we were mostly all burned out from the last three games with the exact same music and similar graphics and gameplay.
So basically I feel like that Nintendo needs to do the opposite of Sonic Mania. It doesn't need to reach into its past to fix the present, Nintendo needs to look to the future of 2D Mario instead of being stuck in the past and present.
Nintendo, on the other hand, sent 2D Mario in a GOOD direction post-16 bit era, with New Super Mario Bros. Wii and U being some of the best in the series. They are new games, through and through, with new powers, abilities, surprises, and ideas that reach beyond simple stage gimmicks, and collectively, the NSMB series feels like a very worthy successor to the old 2D Mario games. The problem, however, is that all the games in the NSMB series are similar to one another gameplay-wise, graphically, and especially musically. So by the time we got to Mario U, we were mostly all burned out from the last three games with the exact same music and similar graphics and gameplay.
So basically I feel like that Nintendo needs to do the opposite of Sonic Mania. It doesn't need to reach into its past to fix the present, Nintendo needs to look to the future of 2D Mario instead of being stuck in the past and present.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Again, why this post assumes NSMB is the only 2D mario
NSMB 1 and U were pretty good games, I really couldn't stand the other two but I do agree that they should've pushed the envelope with each iteration. I would love to see the creativity of Super Mario Land 2 and 3 put into a brand new game, even if it used the same NSMB engine.
Also if you think about it classic Mario doesn't really have a clearly defined look like Sonic does, the art direction of old Mario games was constantly changing.
Also if you think about it classic Mario doesn't really have a clearly defined look like Sonic does, the art direction of old Mario games was constantly changing.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Isn't that what they actually did? Like that's what got us NSMB2. But I don't think Mario has anything to learn from Mania. If it weren't for Mania, Sonic would still be in garbage town.
The last 2D Mario not to have that moniker was what, Super Mario World?
Team Andromeda
Member
Nothing other than how vastly superior MARIO 2D games were/are over the Sonic ones. Sonic or Sonic Mania is nothing on the sheer perfection of Mario IV
NSMB, when it was new and the only one had charm. It's actually interesting to look back on and see the ideas it had that weren't repeated with later games. Not the prettiest game, but that's partly because it's on DS. People may have knocked Mario being a 3D model, but he's much more nimble as one with a vastly expanded moveset.
With NSMBWii I feel people got rather tried with it. Not only was it just a cleaned up DS game in the eyes of many, in terms of music, this was post Mario Galaxy. Heck, the Wii version removed the quirky chiptuniness of the DS' soundtrack.
NSMB2 is the least remarkable of the bunch. I feel this is the game that people think of when they think of all that's wrong with the series: lots of wah wahs (although, as we all know, the wah wah haters will forever be wrong), not very interesting visuals (it's basically the Wii version but blurrier) and it came out when the Wii U version was in the works.
Finally we come to the Wii U version. You know, even I didn't pick this up at launch because I was getting a bit tired of them, but after seeing some of the later levels and hearing the positive things I soon picked it up. This is basically what NSMB should have been all along. While the world themes are simple, they have small twists to give it a bit of character i.e the desert is also cake themed. The story, while basic, is a nice spin on the usual formula. Finally, the graphical style finally shines thanks to HD - that and they actually made the background visually interesting.
With NSMBWii I feel people got rather tried with it. Not only was it just a cleaned up DS game in the eyes of many, in terms of music, this was post Mario Galaxy. Heck, the Wii version removed the quirky chiptuniness of the DS' soundtrack.
NSMB2 is the least remarkable of the bunch. I feel this is the game that people think of when they think of all that's wrong with the series: lots of wah wahs (although, as we all know, the wah wah haters will forever be wrong), not very interesting visuals (it's basically the Wii version but blurrier) and it came out when the Wii U version was in the works.
Finally we come to the Wii U version. You know, even I didn't pick this up at launch because I was getting a bit tired of them, but after seeing some of the later levels and hearing the positive things I soon picked it up. This is basically what NSMB should have been all along. While the world themes are simple, they have small twists to give it a bit of character i.e the desert is also cake themed. The story, while basic, is a nice spin on the usual formula. Finally, the graphical style finally shines thanks to HD - that and they actually made the background visually interesting.
Why should Nintendo make changes on a team that's winning?
I honestly don't care about story in Mario games. New Super Mario Bros U is an awesome game and with great art style, do you guys remember that Van Gogh painting's inspired stage? And the one with the northern lights? So pretty...
I honestly don't care about story in Mario games. New Super Mario Bros U is an awesome game and with great art style, do you guys remember that Van Gogh painting's inspired stage? And the one with the northern lights? So pretty...
No, they're not spinoffs, they're Super Mario Bros 5, 6, 7 and 8.
Dark Cloud
Member
Nintendo are the masters. Again, there's nothing they need to learn from Sonic Mania. Criticisms that the "New" series had were way before Mania ever came out.
Then there's Super Mario Maker which absolutely kills it all around with presentation. If you want to count Mario Maker that's fine. I don't really count it because it's not it's own 2D Mario game where you go on an adventure with 80 levels created by Nintendo.
Heck if you want to go by what's the latest representation of 2D Mario just look at what they've done in Mario Odyssey.
The Van Gogh stage was so great to look at. It's one of those stages we'll always remember. The night time stages in the snow world are great too.
Then there's Super Mario Maker which absolutely kills it all around with presentation. If you want to count Mario Maker that's fine. I don't really count it because it's not it's own 2D Mario game where you go on an adventure with 80 levels created by Nintendo.
Heck if you want to go by what's the latest representation of 2D Mario just look at what they've done in Mario Odyssey.
The Van Gogh stage was so great to look at. It's one of those stages we'll always remember. The night time stages in the snow world are great too.
Refreshment.01
Member
Hopefully this thread changes tone after posts like the above. Besides Nintendo having enough in it's own stable to draw inspiration from i wish to add...
The common theme been argued here is that 2D Mario has become stagnant. But if we see the progresion from:
SMB 1 > SMB USA > SMB 3 > SMW > NSMB > NSMB Wii > Mario Maker
Main problem you can accuse the games for, mainly the "New" label, is the asset reuse. Besides that speaking in terms of gameplay and mechanics, all the games were build around a new central ginmick: NSMB Wii introduced 4 player Multiplayer. Or the games introduced very indepth game modes: Boost Blocks and challenges in NSMB Wii U, User Created Content in Mario Maker for example.
On the other hand Mania is a throwback to the old days of quality 2D Sonic games, which while great and timely, it doesn't exactly shine as an example of reinventing the wheel or constantly evolving a series.
The thread amounts to yet another people riding a trend, in this case with coined thread titles and themes: See "X game is already cultivating an art folowing." Let's be more creative.
That only concerns visual and presentation aspects and ignore key parts of videogames which are gameplay related. The 2D games have adressed the gameplay side introducing new things.
i agree the 2D Mario games neccesitate an overhaul in it's presentation. Nintendo already knows that thought.
I'd also like a new sprite-based look for the next 2D Mario, but a part from that I can't agree with any of OT's complaints. NSMBU was an EXCELLENT game (LuigiU made it even better) and Mario Maker is an infinite Mario game. The one in 3DS is also nothing like previous 2D Marios; it's original and really fun to play. I'm really wondering if OP has a 3DS or WiiU and has played any of the last 2D Marios or if he's just being carried away by the ignorant "2D Mario is lazy" narrative you sometimes see pop up in GAF.
They don't need to try as people just hand out 10's to Mario games, even if they're 95% recycled. Glad some people are starting to call out the bland uninspired music of these games though, the music in NSMB series is just so half assed. Sonic Mania has shown that classic style music CAN be made and improved upon with the right direction and mixing.
Dark Cloud
Member
Umm you're late to the party. The New series music was called out like half a decade ago. Show me where the games are 95% recycled because you're implying the level design is part of that.
Like I already shown Super Mario Odyssey already showed classic 2D Mario Bros 😂
SporeCrawler
Member
like mario maker.
What ? Either you have to edit your sentence or explain to me what it means.
And even if you said : "Mania did what the 3D Mario does". It would still be wrong but in a different way.
Sonic Mania is clearly not as original as most new 3D Mario. That's going to far.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Mario Maker
In any case my argument was that all of the "oh mario looks the same" is a garbage post that relies solely on hitting on NSMB
this isn't SMW -> SMB4:World
Did Cammie really block people's memory? Wii (and U) were the best of the NSMB games primarily because they're the full extent of the game. It's not just a graphic overhaul. It added gameplay elements and structures that went into level design.
this post is lost from those "Zelda wouldn't get that score" and "exhausted franchises" threads huh
I didn't like the Wii one, I could feel the levels weren't mean to be played in single player mode. I honestly loved the DS and 3DS NSMB games :/ And then NSLU is superb! I get the complains about the visuals and music, but the NSMB games are pretty good if indeed extremely conservative.
I'd like to remind you that OP was asking about what could Mario games from now on learn from Sonic Mania's strengths.
So there's no need to defend or evaluate the whole Mario games history, or bash previous Sonic games (easy thing to do).
And LOL at those of you making lists of other sources of inspiration for Mario rather than Sonic, made exclusively of Nintendo games. As if they were some sort of sacred pool of wisdom for game-making that couldn't be tainted. There's plenty of good games out there, Sonic, Rayman, indie or whatever, that do some things better than Nintendo.
So there's no need to defend or evaluate the whole Mario games history, or bash previous Sonic games (easy thing to do).
And LOL at those of you making lists of other sources of inspiration for Mario rather than Sonic, made exclusively of Nintendo games. As if they were some sort of sacred pool of wisdom for game-making that couldn't be tainted. There's plenty of good games out there, Sonic, Rayman, indie or whatever, that do some things better than Nintendo.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
That.... doesn't mean that they shouldn't engage with their fans more appreciatively like SEGA did with Sonic Mania...
Buddy Mcpuddy
Member
The music.
Mania has an amazing soundtrack. NSMB has this honky Wah Wah insipid nonsense that makes me yearn for death.
Mania has an amazing soundtrack. NSMB has this honky Wah Wah insipid nonsense that makes me yearn for death.
redmetal86
Member
Wah wahs are my jam.
Buddy Mcpuddy
Member
Even so, Mario 3 and Mario World have incredible sound tracks NSMB is a huge step backwards.
Y'know, you can say what you think those games do better than NSMB. No one's going to stop you.
And maybe people who play NSMB are more likely to have played other 2D Nintendo platformers than Sonic, Rayman, indie or whatever? I didn't really see any comments saying only Nintendo makes good games so that's the conclusion I would think of first.
Having not grown up with the Sonic games I always found the 2d Sonic games to look awful.I appreciate 2D sprite work but outside of Sonic's design everything else ranged from kitsch to terrible. There's just so much of the late 80's/early 90's design ethos baked into the environment design that always looks so gaudy/busy.
Everything is so claustrophobic.
On the opposite end of the spectrum is New Super Mario Bros where everything just feels empty.
I don't wan't Mario to regress like Sonic did. My childhood was great but I don't want to pretend like I'm playing a new SNES game in 2017. Give me something new not a remix of something old. If Nintendo does do more 2D Mario's outside of Mario Maker hopefully it learns more from Rayman Legends art design than Sonic.
Everything is so claustrophobic.
On the opposite end of the spectrum is New Super Mario Bros where everything just feels empty.
I don't wan't Mario to regress like Sonic did. My childhood was great but I don't want to pretend like I'm playing a new SNES game in 2017. Give me something new not a remix of something old. If Nintendo does do more 2D Mario's outside of Mario Maker hopefully it learns more from Rayman Legends art design than Sonic.
SporeCrawler
Member
"What a game series that is critically acclaimed and regularly sells in the millions, even on a poorly-selling console, can learn from the first semi-decent game in another game series, that riffs heavily off the only other decent games in said series".
Or is that too long for a thread title?
Or is that too long for a thread title?
SporeCrawler
Member
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I don't think it's a matter of being defensive, it's just a kind of silly premise. Asking what Mario can learn from Sonic Mania is like asking what Sonic Mania can learn from Gex. There might be a couple nuggets of inspiration worth mining, but overall they're in different leagues in terms of quality. And I say that as someone who has bought Sonic Mania and is enjoying it plenty.
I played them. Everything looks super flat and bland in the foreground no matter how they mix up the background. They're fun games but they look bland.
SporeCrawler
Member
yes because it has 100 levels created by nintendo.
to each his own i guess. I would agree that NSMB 1 and 2 are broken, bland and overall just average games but NSMBU is a top tier game imho
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
but if you read the thread people are always bringing up NSMB right from the start
I don't really care about the premise or intent, I just posted here because people only seem to think NSMB exists.
Koizumi doesn't love Mario?
Chronospherics
Member
Having not grown up with the Sonic games I always found the 2d Sonic games to look awful.I appreciate 2D sprite work but outside of Sonic's design everything else ranged from kitsch to terrible. There's just so much of the late 80's/early 90's design ethos baked into the environment design that always looks so gaudy/busy.
Everything is so claustrophobic.
That's some cherry picking from Sonic Mania, it doesn't look that busy, normally. Also, the busyness is applied intentionally, to add to the sense of speed. That checkerboard wire background in the screenshot you provided will simply contribute to making it look fast, to running through the level, as you run past it. it works in the same way to the checkered patterns on the tracks from Wipeout.
ShirAhava
Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
Mario has not ever and will not ever be good in the way that 2D Sonic is good. Mario's draw is that is it mediocre...its tailored to the dumbed down masses it's Micky D's
Sonic is a slain beast dragged home and prepared by the finest chefs...the music...the look...the gameplay every detail is highly advanced and prepared to a standard of excellence that a Goomba could never dream of comparing to or the worst thing you've ever tasted but guess what? Its doing something either way, trying new things, growing, failing, getting back up, Sonic is interesting no matter what...it might be bad at times but its never "WAH WAH"
The main thing Mario can learn from Mania is self-respect rather than whoring himself out in in 2 to 4 uninspired cash grabs every few years. "WAH WAH 3D" "SUPER WAH WAH" "WAH WAH MAKER" "WAH WAH GALAXY" Its just filler..
People say Sonic hasn't been good since 94' and I agree....I also say that Mario hasn't really existed since Mario 64...everything after that has been "WAH WAH" shame on Mario fans for buying crap and pretending its cake all these years but the jig is up the Speedy blue king has returned What are you gonna do when Sonic Mania runs wild on you?
Sonic is a slain beast dragged home and prepared by the finest chefs...the music...the look...the gameplay every detail is highly advanced and prepared to a standard of excellence that a Goomba could never dream of comparing to or the worst thing you've ever tasted but guess what? Its doing something either way, trying new things, growing, failing, getting back up, Sonic is interesting no matter what...it might be bad at times but its never "WAH WAH"
The main thing Mario can learn from Mania is self-respect rather than whoring himself out in in 2 to 4 uninspired cash grabs every few years. "WAH WAH 3D" "SUPER WAH WAH" "WAH WAH MAKER" "WAH WAH GALAXY" Its just filler..
People say Sonic hasn't been good since 94' and I agree....I also say that Mario hasn't really existed since Mario 64...everything after that has been "WAH WAH" shame on Mario fans for buying crap and pretending its cake all these years but the jig is up the Speedy blue king has returned What are you gonna do when Sonic Mania runs wild on you?
eXistor
Member
When people say NSMB is bland and boring I really have to assume they haven't played the games. I'll absolutely agree on the whole look of the series: it's safe and derivative, but that's really where it ends; the level-design in NSMB on the whole has been nothing short of genius. Play NSMBU and tell me this isn't Nintendo operating on their highest level.
I do agree though, if 2D Mario can bring the high level of game-design to their art, we are talking straight-up best Mario of all time.
I haven't actually played Mania yet (excited to, but I just don't do digital games, I'll hold off for the inevitable physical copy) and I'm sure the game is great (though I'm not too sure on its insistence on remixing levels instead of just offering all-new ones), but I'm really not sure Mario needs to take a page out of Mania's book. Apples and oranges and all that.
I do agree though, if 2D Mario can bring the high level of game-design to their art, we are talking straight-up best Mario of all time.
I haven't actually played Mania yet (excited to, but I just don't do digital games, I'll hold off for the inevitable physical copy) and I'm sure the game is great (though I'm not too sure on its insistence on remixing levels instead of just offering all-new ones), but I'm really not sure Mario needs to take a page out of Mania's book. Apples and oranges and all that.
Er The 90s console wars ended long ago. Where have you been?
So basically make a ton of shit version of the games and make a semi decent one and everyone will praise it as the 2nd coming. Lol got it
nephilimdj
Member
Funny thing is they have a amazing mario game which would work awesome as a celebration, successor to OG Mario vs DK, not the HTML5 lemmings games.
What?
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