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What Mario can learn from Mania
- Thread starter Mr.Fletcher
- Start date
- Status
The truth is, despite people loving to say gameplay is king, people will continue to judge games by their appearance and, even if graphically it's an actual improvement over previous games, NSMBU does continue an aesthetic of three previous titles.
There's a reason they could condense them all into one style with Super Mario Maker.
The funny thing, if Nintendo wanted to take one lesson from Mania, it would be not to release another 2D Mario platformer for about 20 years. Heck, just look at what happened when Nintendo released an extremely graphically impressive and ambitious platformer with a killer soundtrack, Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze - the gaming community told them to rot in hell just because they dared release it too soon after Returns.
lol.
So, why is it known that they know?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I honestly would put Megaman away from it. MMX I'd agree. But the original especially pre-SNES Megaman suffer from many, many physics and platforming glitches.
So GAF? Because the other places was more of apathy.
If this wans't already a GAF meme, i think that it may be now?
bryanee
Member
Having not grown up with the Sonic games I always found the 2d Sonic games to look awful.I appreciate 2D sprite work but outside of Sonic's design everything else ranged from kitsch to terrible. There's just so much of the late 80's/early 90's design ethos baked into the environment design that always looks so gaudy/busy.
Everything is so claustrophobic.
On the opposite end of the spectrum is New Super Mario Bros where everything just feels empty.
I don't wan't Mario to regress like Sonic did. My childhood was great but I don't want to pretend like I'm playing a new SNES game in 2017. Give me something new not a remix of something old. If Nintendo does do more 2D Mario's outside of Mario Maker hopefully it learns more from Rayman Legends art design than Sonic.
I agree Rayman has an incredible mix of art and technical quality, probably delivering the prettiest 2D game to date.
But I disagree about the Sonic part. That busy aesthetic that you deem "claustrophobic" is what I love about the Sonic classics. It might seem confusing in some picked screenshots, but it doesn't at all in motion, when things move and blink, and you have multiple scroll layers giving depth. And as other poster said, having more "texture" to the environments increases the sense of speed.
What I would like to see the most is that aesthetic attempted in HD (by Sonic or Mario or other game). Rayman art didn't look that impressive in his original 240p games, actually.
You forgot the "believe me, I'm an expert" part so people would know it was a joke post
Mr. Lemming
Member
Nintendo did this with the New series (granted only 10 years) and didn't even need impressive graphics or a killer soundtrack to sell 30 million copies.
TheDinoman
Member
mariachi507
Member
I'm really glad I don't live in the alternative universe that you do.
Not a 90+. Into the trash it goes. Not worth my time.
Yep, it's only "semi-decent", folks.
Seems like some of you people just can't accept that there's a Sonic game that's actually worthwhile, lol.
Airola
Member
Yeah, Sonic has tried a lot in the past couple of decades. A missed shot after a missed shot after a missed shot. And now when they seemingly finally get it right, it should somehow be a lesson to Mario?
The New series have nothing else wrong than they look and sound like each other. The gameplay and game design is still top notch.
so not one of you actually looked at Manias level design, And instead are handwaving it of as old school sonic despite the fact they mixed in things that wasn't in old school sonic?
what about the fact that mania has its elemental powerups actually effect the enviroment and unlock secret paths in the levels? the most I can think of in 2d Mario is using the fire to light torches to get things, but not stuff like burning down a bridge, or even freezing water to get around. I see some of that in odyssey, but that's not a 2d Mario. 2d mario needs to take pages out of both sonic and old school Rayman's book and make their levels feel more like distinct worlds rather than sterile "movie sets" and the best way to do that is to bring that high level of interactivity to the stage to the 2d games.
what about the fact that mania has its elemental powerups actually effect the enviroment and unlock secret paths in the levels? the most I can think of in 2d Mario is using the fire to light torches to get things, but not stuff like burning down a bridge, or even freezing water to get around. I see some of that in odyssey, but that's not a 2d Mario. 2d mario needs to take pages out of both sonic and old school Rayman's book and make their levels feel more like distinct worlds rather than sterile "movie sets" and the best way to do that is to bring that high level of interactivity to the stage to the 2d games.
Airola
Member
Sonic 4 is a thing.
Hopefully Koizumi gets his hands on it sometime down the road. guy is god tier in making Mario games i am sure he can do something epic with the 2d games aswell.
(he directed the galaxy games and is producer of odyssey he also had some work done in Majoras Mask and mario 64 i think)
Daffy Duck
Member
Along with a lot of the switch library then?
ah say ah say that's a joke son
Daffy Duck
Member
Thise are interesting ideas, but I don't think it's something Mario needs to do, just like something like Meat Boy or DK wouldn't either benefit from it. Mario levels are usually based on a main idea and develop it, it's an approach inherently different to Sonic, Rayman and others. It's another style of platforming, not better or worst, but different. We should celebrate each series having it's own personality instead of trying to make all of them the same thing.
fair enough.
the only 2d Mario i've ever really liked was SMW,
went back and played SMB3 and just found that it wasn't as great as I remembered.
meanwhile SMW continues to be that anomaly for me.
whitemex88
Member
I meant the 2d series
TheDinoman
Member
Doubt it. Koizomi mainly works on the 3D games, which are made by a different team from the people who work on 2D Mario.
It's like Metroid. Sakamoto works on the 2D series while Tanabe produces the Prime games. Not a huge amount of overlap between the two development teams.
Nintendoga
Member
Sonic never WAH WAH'd cause he was too busy doing QUACK QUACK
I know its a joke post lol
NSMB has pretty good level design and gameplay, and there are some instances where its brushes with creativity, particularly U in design. But seeing the same assets, music, and artstyle has made it feel stagnant. U was going somewhere by using some creative backgrounds, but it needs to be expanded upon. I don't think the series needs a radical change but something should be spiced up in the visual and audio department.
It doesn't. Hell, I've posted explicitly regarding Mario Maker in this thread. When talking about experimenting with different styles though, Mario Maker can be excluded simply because it doesn't HAVE it's own style. It simply uses SMB1, SMB3, SMW or NSMB styles.
Mario experimenting more with different artsyles than Sonic is nonsense in general, but especially so after the 8-16bit era.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
ok
petethepanda
Member
The general idea of looking outside the usual team for ideas seems to be the main takeaway from Mania.
(Mario clearly hasn't stagnated as much as Sonic had, but) Sega started to feel like an author who kept publishing books without having anyone beta read them first.
(Mario clearly hasn't stagnated as much as Sonic had, but) Sega started to feel like an author who kept publishing books without having anyone beta read them first.
I'm referring to that more as a lesson that sega had to learn
Can't agree with most of what you said. I will say, however, that the art in the NSMB series is disappointingly bland.
Additionally, Odyssey's art is unappealing. It's something I never thought I'd see in a key release of a 3D Mario game. I much prefer the look of Mario + Rabbids, Galaxy, and 3D World, which are all gorgeous (ARMS and Splatoon, too).
Additionally, Odyssey's art is unappealing. It's something I never thought I'd see in a key release of a 3D Mario game. I much prefer the look of Mario + Rabbids, Galaxy, and 3D World, which are all gorgeous (ARMS and Splatoon, too).
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
While I like all of the classic 2D Mario, SMW is bashed a lot when compared to 3 even though I actually think it does many things better, like a more freeform platforming and liberal use of powers, and an actual point of a world map rather than a mere display.
So there we already seen 4 different styles. Hell there are people saying that the SNES All Stars are not really matching their NES designs. And there's also the not-Mario SMB2. And Mario Maker itself isn't even "true" to those classic styles as despite being similar they have their own spin and physics like some weird Smash Bros. clone.
Ah, was confused by that part lol
Sure, Jan
Twilight Princess
Member
I watched TWO sonic mania vids on youtube, now i'm getting a bunch of weeb animu recommendations, so gross.
The à¹ÛBronx
Member
Isn't the fact they continue to make stellar games appreciation enough?
It was that which was lacking on Sega's end for all those years and why simply making a Sonic game on par with the originals is considered such a celebratory thing.
Yep, it's only "semi-decent", folks.
How's GTA4's Metascore looking?
Spieler Eins
Member
It's true, but the trite level themes and backdrops fall more into the art category. What was even worse with all these WiiU Mario games is that even the level design and gameplay was completely uninspired. NSMBWii was the last of these titles to surprise with actual gameplay ideas. The big amount of movement and rotation in level objects wasn't in any prior 2D Mario game, nor the multiplayer. Everything that followed NSMBWii though was just map packs with the same level mechanics from that game slightly re-arranged. I guess they had that coin collection gimmick once, which was completely inconsequential for the core gameplay. The Iwata Asks for that game was also funny, when the developers were really proud for including a single new enemy in that title.
4 styles is nice and all... but maybe you should pay attention to the post I was replying to.
There are two distinct styles between the Sonic 4 entries alone... both look nothing like Advance, which looks nothing like Rush, which look nothing like 3DS Generations, which looks nothing like the 3DS Boom games.
You can find more experimentation for recent 2D Sonic than you can for the entire line of 2D Mario that Mario Maker almost entirely represents (Minus western Mario 2 and SMW2)... and that's before we start looking at the various Genesis, Master System and Gear Gear entries.
James Scott
Banned
The only real major mistake with the NSMB franchise was releasing NSMB2 right next over U. It created an artificial "Mario Fatigue" that lasted a year or so until 3D World.
They haven't released a NSMB standalone release since with the next major 2D game being Mario Maker which was really well revived.
They haven't released a NSMB standalone release since with the next major 2D game being Mario Maker which was really well revived.
One game being overrated doesn't mean a different game in a different franchise on a different console in a different genre is also poorly rated
Soulscribe
Member
Honestly as an owner of Mania I have to disagree that Mario should learn anything from it. What makes Mania great is that it's the safest, most meticulously emulated version of classic Sonic, and it's what fans have wanted if only because Sega had exhausted all efforts to be progressive with the franchise. Sonic hasn't worked since those initial run of games; yes there have been some solid entries along the way but generally speaking, Sega wins with Sonic when it plays it safe. Nintendo has been bolder with Mario and has succeeded every time because they understand the elasticity of that world.
Mania just shows me that Sega has no idea where to take this franchise and is better off just celebrating the past for nostalgia's sake. Great game, but Nintendo's better off doing what they're doing.
Mania just shows me that Sega has no idea where to take this franchise and is better off just celebrating the past for nostalgia's sake. Great game, but Nintendo's better off doing what they're doing.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yes I am, for the most part the differences you're using feels more related to the console than the actual artstyle.
Sonic 4 Episode 1 & 2 are on the same platforms.
Advance, Rush, Genarations and Boom are hardly natural technological progressions of each other. That's just BS.
Having not grown up with the Sonic games I always found the 2d Sonic games to look awful.I appreciate 2D sprite work but outside of Sonic's design everything else ranged from kitsch to terrible. There's just so much of the late 80's/early 90's design ethos baked into the environment design that always looks so gaudy/busy.
Everything is so claustrophobic.
Do you feel the same way when playing the actual game, or have you not played it? In screenshots it seems busy, but when your playing you don't notice it. Everything blends together extremely well.
I agree completely.
NSMB games have objectively good level design, but tbh the aesthetic sucks a ton of my enjoyment out of em.
A return to the 16 bit aesthetic (All-Star collection has some excellent spritework imo) and more layers of parallax scrolling backgrounds would be godtier for the series. I like what they do with the backgrounds in NSMB, but the rest of the art isn't terribly great
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