Are we talking about the Atlantic Slave Trade and its affects or are we talking about bigotry, slavery, and so on because that's been around since we could think.
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White Evangelicals Believe They Face More Discrimination Than Muslims (The Atlantic)
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Are we talking about the Atlantic Slave Trade and its affects or are we talking about bigotry, slavery, and so on because that's been around since we could think.
I don't think it gets a pass. The simple fact is that the history of other nations is either on the same level or worse.
Every nation on the American continent today that experienced slavery has significant problems with racism and discrimination. It isn't special or unique to the United States. It is a consequence of the system of slavery and then rich, exploitative fucks trying to justify it.
Europe certainly isn't better in this because they were the ones who set up this slave economy, were the dominant force in the slave trade, and its Caribbean sugar plantation islands were far more brutal and inhumane than a slave plantation in NA (due to the nature of sugar production).
The sad fact is, is that America did a better job of living up to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution than basically any other nation before like the 20th century. That is why so many people kept on coming here. Don't get me wrong, just because I am saying that America did a better job doesn't mean that I think America did a good job. It did a bad job because of slavery, but Europe also had slave colonies in the Caribbean, Russia had its serfs (which were basically slaves), and those nations along with all the others lived under a system monarchical/authoritarian system where the people didn't really have rights or a say in government.
You need to make the distinction between ethnocentrism and racism. Ethnocentrism - a belief that your culture is superior to others and discriminating people based on that belief has been around forever. Racism is a creation of the 15-16th Century, which states that a group is superior because of the color of their skin and not their culture, etc.
Its beginnings lie in the Spanish's drop of blood law after the reconquista and developed further in the Caribbean when slavers enacted laws to discriminate against blacks based on their race and justified that because of their race
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-01.htm
Muppet of a Man
Member
The problem is brought upon themselves. They are the ones trying to break down the barriers between church and state...not us. I would have no problem with them if they didn't do this. The fact that they are actively trying to push theocracy/fascism is a real threat to living the lifestyle YOU choose to live. It's no different than what radical extremist sects of Islam are doing, albeit the people who constitute those groups are much more desperate and impoverished.
theignoramus
Member
I wasnt doing an "origin of racism" trip through history. Im talking specifically about how it was codified in America.
That's why I was asking for specifics because being prejudiced and bigoted thinking and actions are nothing new for humanity no matter the name it goes by and is far older than the Western world.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Not really a new thing, the persecution complex of white Evangelicals has been strong for decades.
theignoramus
Member
That explains why so many Black Americans became American ex-pats in Canada and France and other parts of Europe and why they would always reflect on how much better they were treated in these places compared to America.
One half of the population of the American south was disenfranchised and subject to racial terrorism for essentially hundreds of years, with just one brief interruption during Reconstruction. The Supreme Court ruled Blacks "had no rights which the White man was bound to respect" and even though that was theoretically overturned with the 14th amendment and 15th amendments, it was de facto law until 1965. So I think I'll pass on this particular bit of American "exceptionalism"
"Giving Cakes to gay couples" is one of the things their persecution complex is built on.
To add to that this also has gotten under their skin.
"War on Christmas"
"Removing God from the Pledge of Allegiance"
Pretty much. They see everyone else in society as a whole oppressing them from every aspect.
onadesertedisland
Member
Part of the christian condition is a persecution complex. The religion was based on this. Evangelicals take christianity to extremes in many aspects.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Oh that's rich. RICH.
Muslims in 2017 are a half step away from being the next Japanese in WWII and Christians are the persecuted ones? Loooooool
Muslims in 2017 are a half step away from being the next Japanese in WWII and Christians are the persecuted ones? Loooooool
I forgot to add teaching evolution.
or they only take half-measures. they would never turn the other cheek were anything ever done to them.
Yeah, they sure face a lot of discrimination:
S. Dakota Gov signs bill allowing taxpayer-funded adoption agencies to discriminate
This is why when you stumble into a thread and admit how fucking clueless you are but still try to make a straw-man point you come across as kind of douchy.
Educate your self KrellRell.
S. Dakota Gov signs bill allowing taxpayer-funded adoption agencies to discriminate
This is why when you stumble into a thread and admit how fucking clueless you are but still try to make a straw-man point you come across as kind of douchy.
Educate your self KrellRell.
I suspect Hispanics, Mexican or not, will beat them to that dubious distinction.
Yeah. Comparing this to people making a topic about "Muslims" are two very different things.
Lets say a survey came out from a muslim majority country, and some muslim subgroup (Shiites, Sunnis, etc.) that controlled more than half the government claimed to be the most discriminated against people in their country. That would be the equivilant of this. I'd have no problem being disgusted in that hypothetical situation either.
Infinite Stars
Member
Let's do a checklist for this thread:
The issue is that American Evangelicals have effectively warped the Bible to serve whatever group they deemed as relevant at the start of their evangelism. We have the Prosperity Gospel being taught in the same faith where Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
- Evangelical Christians continuing to be the worst, lumping everyone else into "EVIL" and believing a myth of persecution(that honestly was only ever true in Western Culture Pre-Edict of Milan/Council of Nicea)
- GAF lumping Christianity as a whole into what the Evangelical groups spout, not realizing that despite Evangelical's moaning they are not representative of the broader faith
- GAF correctly identifying that Evangelicals are crappy people, but choosing to target the religion/faith as a whole over the deeply rooted lies that American Evangelicals view as truth that cause them to be awful.
The issue is that American Evangelicals have effectively warped the Bible to serve whatever group they deemed as relevant at the start of their evangelism. We have the Prosperity Gospel being taught in the same faith where Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
The problem with this is that you seem to be projecting Today's European values post WW2 to the past. A white citizen in Europe before the 20th century had less rights, less freedom and far less of a say in their government than a white citizen in America. America was a republican democracy while the others were Monarchies/Authoritarian states. Liberty and equality were not values in European society. It was hierarchy, class and deference.
I would definitely agree with you that blacks lived better in Europe and Canada than in America because there wasn't the horrible racist system in place. A life of being on the bottom of the hierarchy and the bottom class in Europe was a lot better than a racist, exploitative system in America. One thing to note is that blacks sure as shit did not live better in European colonies in the Caribbean. Their lives were worse. It seems kinda silly to me to give Europe props for not having slavery in Europe while being perfectly fine with setting up racist, exploitative slave colonies.
And I'd hardly call what I said exceptionalism. Unless you think a slightly less stinky pile of shit is an indication of exceptionalism.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
White Evangelicals, call Muslims (and just about any minority) back when:
- You are pulled out of line at an airport because of what you look like.
- People refuse to sit next to you on a bus, train or plane, or make a big deal that you are going to do something "Radical Evangelical".
- You are forbidden entrance into a country because of what you look like and your religion.
- You are harassed on the street for looking like a "White Evangelical".
- You are targeted by bigots that vandalize your property, or threaten and/or commit violence towards you because you are a "White Evangelical".
- Your place of worship, and places of congregation outside of worship are targeted by gunmen that think you have no right existing on this Earth.
- People don't want you to marry someone of a different race or religion because you are an "inferior White Evangelical".
- When you move into a neighborhood, everybody else thinks the worst ("There goes the neighborhood...") and are suspicious of every thing you do.
- If you are on an empty street and someone is walking towards you, that person would rather cross the street than walk past you because you are a White Evangelical, so you must be a dangerous thug.
- You are pulled out of line at an airport because of what you look like.
- People refuse to sit next to you on a bus, train or plane, or make a big deal that you are going to do something "Radical Evangelical".
- You are forbidden entrance into a country because of what you look like and your religion.
- You are harassed on the street for looking like a "White Evangelical".
- You are targeted by bigots that vandalize your property, or threaten and/or commit violence towards you because you are a "White Evangelical".
- Your place of worship, and places of congregation outside of worship are targeted by gunmen that think you have no right existing on this Earth.
- People don't want you to marry someone of a different race or religion because you are an "inferior White Evangelical".
- When you move into a neighborhood, everybody else thinks the worst ("There goes the neighborhood...") and are suspicious of every thing you do.
- If you are on an empty street and someone is walking towards you, that person would rather cross the street than walk past you because you are a White Evangelical, so you must be a dangerous thug.
pigeon interrupted
Member
What about France? Is revolutionary France considered to be a flawed democracy compared to revolutionary North America? Honestly curious.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
Sudden Change usually does result in violence.
It's slow, gradual change that most effectively takes root.
exactly.
rokkerkory
Member
Poor them
Get real
Get real
You have to go back to the beginnings of American Evangelicalism to see how this has been rooted in their beliefs from the start. Its not a recent phenomenon its just that people finally see the world beyond the propaganda. American Evangelicalism is rooted directly in Puritanism.
US History has been heavily written by the people who have descended from that Puritanism. The entire notion of leaving Europe for religious freedom and escaping persecution is bullshit revisionist white washing of history. The Puritans were assholes who wanted everyone to conform to their viewpoint on Christianity. When the Church of England was formed many aspects of Catholicism were kept in tact as far as religious rights and customs etc. The Puritans were not pleased with that and demanded a complete purge of all things Catholicism. Eventually people got fed up with their insistent denigration of everything the puritans deemed evil.
So the Puritans decided if they could not force England to change they would get on a boat and make a New World for their intolerance. They arrived in America and immediately enacted their policies of our way or go off and die in the wilderness. Their bigotry and intolerance eventually reached a boiling point to where the British Government who had given them the colonization charter had to step in and enforce British rule including the right to practice other religions.
So in the end American Evangelicalism is well entrenched in the practice of claiming to be victims
US History has been heavily written by the people who have descended from that Puritanism. The entire notion of leaving Europe for religious freedom and escaping persecution is bullshit revisionist white washing of history. The Puritans were assholes who wanted everyone to conform to their viewpoint on Christianity. When the Church of England was formed many aspects of Catholicism were kept in tact as far as religious rights and customs etc. The Puritans were not pleased with that and demanded a complete purge of all things Catholicism. Eventually people got fed up with their insistent denigration of everything the puritans deemed evil.
So the Puritans decided if they could not force England to change they would get on a boat and make a New World for their intolerance. They arrived in America and immediately enacted their policies of our way or go off and die in the wilderness. Their bigotry and intolerance eventually reached a boiling point to where the British Government who had given them the colonization charter had to step in and enforce British rule including the right to practice other religions.
So in the end American Evangelicalism is well entrenched in the practice of claiming to be victims
toddhunter
Member
Umm did you miss the fact that there is now a gay character in a Disney film so white evangelicals can't go to the theatre with god and jesus?
When Muslims have to face up to that we can really talk about who has things worse.
America was more America than other places yes.
People did not come to America because it was free generally, as much as that's the fun American received narrative that doesn't really hold true. They came because there was a large amount of economic opportunity here which mostly derived from the land to labor ratio.
Yes. Democracy didn't last in France, and even during the time it did it was far more radical and violent than America
During Revolutionary France, you have a time period actually called "The Reign of Terror". That right there should tell you all you need to know about what sort of rights the people actually had during that time.
As for after that, you got Emperor Napoleon, then after his fall the Monarchy came back, then that was overthrown and you get the Second Republic, then that was overthrown and you get the Second Empire, then that was overthrown and you get the third Republic.
Not a very good history of republican democracy before the 20th century for France
Statistics > anecdote, man.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Maybe stop flipping out over ever little thing then? When Christian groups flip out over a red Starbucks cup they should not be surprised when they are ridiculed for it.
Fair point, though didn't Europe, mostly Southern and Eastern Europe at this point, still basically have feudalistic laws on the books that limited/barred commoners' economic mobility/opportunity?
pigeon interrupted
Member
Thanks for the info!
There are a lot of issues here. Evangelicalism as a whole is more derived from the Great Awakening in particular than Puritanism in general. Moreover it's undergone a lot of developments even since then. Puritanism was in many ways a leftish movement for its time after all.
Nope. You're drawing that out of nowhere. Puritans are overly focused upon in the historiography until around 1970 though. The reasons for this probably have more to do with a sentimental attachment to ideological migration over economic migration, i.e. Virginia and most of the middle colonies. This was in addition to the fact that people were trying to find an ideal type America and they didn't want to find it in the slave holding south.
Well some people did this. Acting like everyone did is a problem of overemphasis, not bullshit revisionism, which by the way is the norm for historians.
Everyone wanted everyone else to conform to their viewpoint on Christianity at the time, yet some sects moved past it.
This is far too simplistic. The Elizabethan Church settlement was only ever a stop gap. There was going to be a conflict, and the king lost his head over it. Besides the more Catholic parts of the church were kept specifically so the Monarchy could exercise more secular and religious power since bishops votes in the Lords. The Puritans were actually leftish on this front.
People were fed up with the Puritans because of how the last years of the commonwealth played out. If Cromwell had survived a few more years I don't think they would have ever been pushed out. You'd end up with the same situation as in Scotland, most people just get burnt out on intense Calvinism after awhile.
This is too simplistic. Laud was harnessing them, though probably not really oppressing them. He did want, at least until 1635, to push them out. But the reason this was happening was again to increase the power of the court. You're painting Charles I as a good guy here, that doesn't pan out well historically.
They expected the same type of social cohesion that England was obsessed with yes. The awkwardness of Puritanism is that in many ways they are the first radically modern people. They wanted the social cohesion of the past, but failed to see how their ideology would never produce that for more than a generation or two.
But for that generation or two New England was actually quite a nice place for the Puritans. You're reading backwards some very negative opinions on Puritans.
You mean English government, and why do you think James did that? Hint it's the same reason that Laud was given a freehand. The state manipulated religion for its own ends. this isn't bad guys versus good guys. It's simply two different views of religion and the English, later British, state.
I actually agree with your thesis more or less, you just went about arguing for it in the wrong way.
What was important about the Puritans for modern Evangelicals in America is the idea of the journey into the Wilderness and massive amounts of millenarian sentiments. The root of the narrative of oppression probably lies in the millenarianism.
Eastern Europe actually experienced what is called second serfdom. Peasants became more restricted than they were before. But let's be honest, when we compare America to Europe we are comparing it to Western Europe. Especially Britain, France, Western Germany, and the Netherlands. When compared to those nations America would probably rank around the middle in a lot of domestic measures besides government participation, but people were still quite represented by the governments through channels besides voting, which is the thing Americans always miss.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
But it's not Christians saying this, only Evangelicals.
Speaking of Evangelicals and discrimination, let's not forget that the entire reason they became a political force was that they wanted the right to keep their schools segregated.
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