Generalizations will exists period. it is simply how the human brain functions.
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White Fragility Leads to White Violence: Why Conversations w/ White Ppl Fall Apart
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Generalizations will exists period. it is simply how the human brain functions.
John Kowalski
Banned
And more, they aren't just artifacts of our intellect, generalizations are real and an evident mechanism of privilege. The "white people" group exists and those belonging to it cannot simply will themselves out of it or will themselves blind to the privilege it allows them.
Sunster
Member
An even better reason to get used to it.
further more I don't get how we are supposed to have these conversations on race without referring to white people and minorities as groups.
TBiddy
Member
That's not an excuse. We're also aggressive (even violent) by nature, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's also in mens nature to have sex with as many women as possible (and the other way round, I believe?), in order to produce offspring - yet monogamy is the "right way", according to the norms in many societies.
You can't just say "it's how the brain works" and use that as an excuse.
You can refer to white people, asians and what have you, as a group. But when you start making generalizations about an entire group of people, solely based on their skincolor, that's when it gets ugly.
John Kowalski
Banned
Pacifism must first deal with the inate potential for aggression though, you have to accept that aggression is a natural impulse to devise ways to avoid it. Same way you can't create mechanisms that combat privilege without first accepting that it exists and that you benefit or not from it.
Uh, that's your own issue and your own decision. Blame it on white people all you want but you're the ones hurting yourselves if that's something you really care about.
Sunster
Member
This guy gets it.
TBiddy
Member
I don't think you can compare a natural instinct (aggression) with a cultural structure (privilege), though.
Calling it human nature does nothing but protect the fragile sensibilities of white people. How is calling it human nature at all helpful?
This thread is such a great example of white fragility.
When women talk about how trash men are, I don't reflexively say #notallmen. Calling it human nature is to deflect from the pointed issue at hand and water down/invalidate their very real experiences.
Education is arguably the most important step to healing this nation right now. Nothing will change as long as white America clings to its ignorance and insecurities.
edit - Also y'all are proving OP's point with your nitpicking in this thread. It's shameful, really.
Imma echo Mike Williams on this a bit the human brain cannot treat every new encounter as a unique and individual one. It's impossible and it's a detrimental to our survival. We walk around every day making countless numbers of assumptions. When you greet someone with "Hello" you're assuming that they speak English for example. Until we receive new information about a particular encounter we act on assumptions and *gasp* generalizations.
Now we should definitely work towards eliminating negative generalizations, the ones that actively harms the quality of life for others or ones that contributes to a negative environment for others. Things like seeing black people as more pain tolerant, dangerous, hulking super humans are harmful and definitely contributes to why the police are more likely respond to a black suspect with violence and fatal violence. Yes, we definitely should avoid making generalization resembling those about any group of people
I don't think any negative generalizations about white people where made in this topic though
If you feel attacked by the statement "White people are racist", then, from the OP: Why are you so invested in whiteness that when you see something said about white people, you take that personally?
White people are racist. You say you're not racist? Well good for you, what do you want, a cookie? How the hell are you helping to combat racism by standing up for whiteness? How does defending white supremacy against criticisms from PoC help to end white supremacy?
If your goal is just to feel better about yourself, well: Welcome to White Fragility, where all discussions about systemic oppression eventually resolve back to white people complaining about getting their feelings hurt.
White people are racist. You say you're not racist? Well good for you, what do you want, a cookie? How the hell are you helping to combat racism by standing up for whiteness? How does defending white supremacy against criticisms from PoC help to end white supremacy?
If your goal is just to feel better about yourself, well: Welcome to White Fragility, where all discussions about systemic oppression eventually resolve back to white people complaining about getting their feelings hurt.
Can Crusher
Banned
The way racism is discussed in the United States will never cease to amaze me. "White people are X", "Black people are Y". Turn on the TV and see the the country divided by colors, "blacks voted A", "whites voted B", "hispanics voted C". I wonder if that isn't the biggest win from a certain party over there.
Pretty sure the same thing happens where you're albeit it's probably divided up into different groups.
TBiddy
Member
Exactly my point. Generalizations are natural, but that doesn't mean it's okay to say whatever you want about a group of people.
See below. I don't know if it was made earlier, but at least it is now. An entire post attacking "white people". It doesn't pass the "switch race/gender/religion" test, that's for sure.
Krauser Kat
Member
Getting butt hurt about being generalized is a great example of white fragility. White people as a group, as a people, have always had power in western society. White people used this power to create institutions thats sole purpose was to demean and subjugate people of color or whoever they view below them.
White people could not have done this with unless everyone in the group was either A. For creating these institutions. B. Cared more about themselves to not get in the way. This is history, this happened we cannot take this back.
That complacency is why white people as a group will always have that blood and pain on our hands. We will always be the oppressors even when individually millenals did not partake in any of this. We stand on the shoulders and the privilege of those before us who committed these acts.
Until true equality is reached in the future we must bear the sins of our forefathers and fight to atone for them. Shutting up and listening and being empathetic to POC situations and standing up for them, is the only path forward.
By bitching about being generalized you are feeding into the system of racism and hurting the progress of POC almost as much as those who wear hoods and run prisons.
MLK already gave you an answer to why this is shitty, all you have to do is listen.
White people could not have done this with unless everyone in the group was either A. For creating these institutions. B. Cared more about themselves to not get in the way. This is history, this happened we cannot take this back.
That complacency is why white people as a group will always have that blood and pain on our hands. We will always be the oppressors even when individually millenals did not partake in any of this. We stand on the shoulders and the privilege of those before us who committed these acts.
Until true equality is reached in the future we must bear the sins of our forefathers and fight to atone for them. Shutting up and listening and being empathetic to POC situations and standing up for them, is the only path forward.
By bitching about being generalized you are feeding into the system of racism and hurting the progress of POC almost as much as those who wear hoods and run prisons.
MLK already gave you an answer to why this is shitty, all you have to do is listen.
MLK
John Kowalski
Banned
You can though, just not directly. I could have used numerous other examples that would fit perhaps better, but the point is no less weak.
KarneeKarnay
Member
People are always going to take what they want. I think this same point could be made to any group and probably cause the same outcome.
It was said rather flippantly but unfortunately I agree with the statement. I subscribe to the belief that everyone in america in particular including white people are all racists to varying degrees because we are all nurtured by a racists country. This doesn't mean that I think all white people are cross burning klan members but it means at a minimum we all have racial biases that we have to actively unlearn. The difference with white people as a group is they are afforded the privilege to not be aware of their own race because they as a group are treated as the default.
Gotdatmoney
Member
There is a pretty explicit context you are ignoring to the post you quoted. Racism is a social construct. There is no mathematica equation that is going to definitively prove anything in this conversation. What you are saying is just a bunch of special snowflake syndrome.
If you arent willing to use observational data and build conclusions out of things that have to be generalized to make a broader point you are not equiped to discuss this topic. It is just that simple.
TBiddy
Member
And it's absolutely fair to have that belief. My belief is, that many of the things presented in this thread about whites are ignorant at best and racist at worst, and that if a white person said similar stuff about blacks, asians and what have you, the entire forum (including me) would be screaming nasty stuff about said white person.
I still don't know why it's okay to "punch up" (as someone said earlier) and write whatever you want about white people, just because we're white.
How /dare/ they not feel privileged. Each day I thank the lord for the fact that my mother still suffers back pain from her days factory working to buy my shoes. She should be happy to have those aches and pains. Perhaps you could visit her and explain how privileged she is in case it hasn't sunk in.
A lot don't feel that way because it's simply not true. Identity politics involved in assigning people various levels of assumed 'privilege' are almost infantile in their short sighted simplicity. They work on a grid matrix of gender and ethnicity, only two variables. In reality there are many, many variables which combine to form the advantages one individual had over another.
Just a few examples:
Attractive people are more likely to be offered jobs, and more likely to be promoted.
Tall men are more likely to be promoted than short.
Any form of speech impediment will hold you back in life.
Regional accents will affect how people judge you at work.
Where you were born can affect your long term health.
The quality of the schools you attended, and your potential to learn from them can give you a significant advantage. I'm talking state schools here, not private.
Until identity politics grows up and accepts individuals as individuals, it's a waste of time. All the variables above are things that are outside of the individuals control, they're generic or circumstance. And yet, we live in a world where it's seen to be acceptable, even virtuous, to tell someone they're advantaged purely based on the colour of their skin.
Sorry, I'll shut up now and blend back in with the rest of the white male herd, it's easy enough - we all look the same.
Who is "we"? I sure as shit didn't invent the concept of race, neither did my ancestors, neither did my country (Austria) or the empire before it.
I'm still waiting for a rational explanation why one group facing systematic racism gives it the right to make insulting generalizations* about the other.
*insulting generalizations = "whites are racists", "fuck white people", "white people are delusional", etc and NOT "white people cant eat spicy stuff" or the blm donut story
Stop being fragile and start feeling guilty for being white already.
Kinda answered your own question, don't you think?
No, I don't see the logical connection where that somehow excuses assholish behavior. I can see that in theory a generalization will hit an already disadvantaged group harder than one that does not share that fate, but I don't see how you can make the jump from that to actually excusing assholish behavior.
White men in Europe during the age of imperialism created the 'modern' concept of 'race' to justify slavery and imperialism.
Constant exposure to systemic racism is the cause of resentment and the first amendment gives minorities the right to verbalize said resentment. Not sure what other "justification" you're expecting
Sunster
Member
who, pray tell, is saying "fuck white people"?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Privilege does not mean complete lack of burden. If you dont want to admit their is an inherent advantage to being white I dont really see why you even feel a need to speak on race. How many statistics, studies and social phenomina do you need to be presented with to not grasp that simple concept?
Yes it is. Requires people to use a little thinking though. No minority ever claimed struggle was a word only designated for them. So if that is how you feel maybe I dunno, read up?
Nobody claimed these were not true. There is a constant fight to try and level the playing field in these aspects as well. But here is a funny thing you dont get. Who is more likely to attend lower quality schools? Minorities? What is the default standard of beauty? White. Where are the poorest nations in the world? You get the picture?
Lolol poor you right?
TBiddy
Member
Fortunately it's not up to you to decide who is equipped and who isn't.
edit:
Also, what do you mean by this?
Gotdatmoney
Member
What social constructs can you talk about totally free of any generalizatilons or assumptions? Please name them. Otherwise my point stands.
People are not such special snowflakes that they cant handle the concept of grouping to discuss issues. I'm male. When we discuss something such as sexual assualt on college campuses I dont need to reaffirm that not all males are like this over and over. It's obvious. But males as a group have to work towards being better.
I dont go, "John, Sam and Kyle are fuck boys but Tom and Paul aint need to hear this generalization. That isn't fair" You know how stupid and unproductive that is?
I don't blame white people. I blame society. Systemic issues they've created are a part of that. I think that's the entire problem with this conversation. Now whether youre an ally or not, thats different. And I dont blame people that dont want to be active. But if youre not trying to help, then please shut up and stop getting in the way of people who are, stop with the cross talk and muddying up what the actual issues are.
I know it's our decision. I know I can't raise a child explaining the things going on today, explaining why they would be in danger because they have brown skin, why they have to act different, why they should be afraid of police. And those issues are multiplied if that child is gay, lesbian, or transgender.
Yeah, it hurts, but I've made the decision to do what I can to help.
Its not, though. Its something my gay and lesbian friends have to be afraid of every time theyre in public. Its something they live with whenever they want to hold hands, hug, or give their partner a peck on the cheek. Its bad enough that a friend of mine decided to propose to his partner in their home and not in public because there is a very real fear that a homophobic person would somehow ruin their special moment. These are things that I dont have to live with. It is my responsibility to acknowledge my own privilege in these circumstances. Its something I didnt consider or think about when I proposed to my own wife, when I hug my wife in public, or kiss her on the check.
TBiddy
Member
Your point is that generalizations are A-Okay. Keep that in mind, the next time an old man claims that females can't do this or that. If that's what you wish to support, that's fine by me. I don't support that.
If people write "men are rapists", they are wrong and should be told so. If people write "there's a problem with rape culture in some male circles", they are right.
Just the same with "whites are racists". It's a lot different than "some whites have a tendency to be prejudiced against PoC".
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Nobody likes to be generalized. White people doesn't want to be generalized anymore that people like to be generalized in China or Iran or South America. It is not an enjoyable experience to be reduced- Particularly if your life hasn't been exactly a smooth ride. Who gives a shit if someone is worse off somewhere else? Do you tell minorities and disenfranchised people in the west that they should stop being frail whiny bitches when there are minorities who are being abused by their very tax dollars? There is an astounding level of circle jerked hypocrisy mirred in oppression olympics in all of this.
There is nowhere on earth that minorities are treated as well as the majority. This has nothing to do with the west or white people either. minorities in Indonesia are treated like shit. Minorities in Japan are treated like shit. Minorities in Iran are treated like shit. The majority will always be be strong together and it will always want to keep as much of the pie for itself as it can. That's all there is to it. We flock into various decrees across religions, ethnicities, origins, belief systems, political systems and social systems to find likeminded people. People who are not like us are always the lowest on our list of priorities.
If you are against racial stereotyping- If you do not like that minorities are treated as a caricature to be laughed at it in sitcoms and pop culture, it really is beyond me that you would go down the same deplorable method of thinking on white people simply because the people with that skin tone have been dominant socially and economically.
Life hasn't been kind to a lot of people. A lot of people are very unhappy and depressed. They have low self esteem and low self worth- I think that some people feel their experiences are made insignificant when someone wants to put tell them how worse someone else has had it. And thats certainly understandable- After all white privilege has always been used more as a tool of provoking, doxing and shaming rather than making people mindful or letting them feel appreciative about their advantages- much more positive connotations that would have made them less defensive, less dismissive and less likely to see it as an attack.
The image of the lady on the previous page equating slavery to generalization is silly. That is just looking for causation and correlation. Slavery stopped for a wide array of reasons- all over the world. You cannot use that as a plausible argument to argue that, slavery wouldn't have stopped by being nice, so we should keep stereotyping everyone. That argument is dumb as shit.
When I think of my personal relationships with friends, family, coworkers, girlfriends, when I wanted to be understood by them, and when I wanted them to understand something, I never got far with using labels or accusations. My experience has always been that people shut off and shut down, and just become angry. And when they are angry, you cannot get through to anybody no matter how sound or rational your argument is. I've always come a lot longer by trying to appeal about how I feel and tried to say how I saw things- Making them not feel like they are being put on the spot. I've always had a lot more success being able to have other people change their opinions or understand me this way.
I don't think it has anything to do with white fragility. I just don't don't think anybody likes to be stereotyped. The argument that there will always be stereotyping so just get used to it, is also dumb. It's about as dumb as saying that everyone should keep being used to racism because it will always be there. That's a terrible approach to the situation- You always try to get better at something and moving forward. And we have moved forward in the last 4000 years. It's not even a 100 years ago that eugenics was still the scientific consensus. We've come very far in a short amount of time, and we will come way further in the next 100 years. If you look at this through a long lens throughout history you can see that a lot of good has happened. The pendulum will always swing the other way, and humanity has always been about two steps forward, one step back, but I find it childish to see this thread being loaded with straight up endorsements for endorsing stereotyping on white people throughout such a narrow tunnel vision.
Talking about white privilege in this manner as it has been in the last few years is not only counter-productive, it straight up has the opposite effect. It has the ability to make passive ignorant people straight up hostile. We own the communication we send out. You don't get to say that they are taking it wrong. You never control how the receiver responds to your message. It's your responsibility to read the people in a manner that will create a response that is desired. Nobody who works with communication defends their campaigns or messages by saying that the masses have the wrong understanding. It's your shitty communication that is the problem and your inability to come down to a playing field where you read them.
White privilege as being intended to make white people more mindful of their inane bias and privilege have failed spectacularly. It's probably one of the chief reasons that helped create the social movement we now bundle together as the Alt-right and the support for guys like Trump. Lots of white people who take their negative connotations about liberal condemnations on themselves into a ether of pure hatred. Sending their anger towards those who bring all the bad feelings.
What is productive towards making people open to helping others or changing their behavior? I know from myself that the books/interviews/articles/documentaries about food, produce, merchandise or consumer behavior that have inspired me to change or act have not been the condescending or lecturing ones, but those that tried to inform in a neutral tone and try and explain things in a way that didn't load something with trying to force a response out of me. As human beings we want to reach our own conclusions. We don't like being told what to do or what to think or how to feel, and when others try to tell us, we sometimes end up going in the opposite direction even if we agree with what is being told to us, simply because we feel a resistance to letting others tell us how to live our lives. This is a counter-prodctive way of communicating.
When you want a child to do something, you end up getting further by also being a role model to the example you're trying to set. If you tell your kid to stop being angry, it doesn't help if you're angry all the time yourself. It really is besides the point that you're an adult and in authority or that you are in your right. At the end of the day, you're still not able to live what you preach and this damages your credibility as a messenger.
Look at what gets through to people. You see a lot of donation campaigns trying to guilt people into donating to various causes struggling right now. We grow immune to the plights, and we give up. We're way more likely to donate to something we feel good about and hopeful about because it brings positive emotions and good feelings.
There is nowhere on earth that minorities are treated as well as the majority. This has nothing to do with the west or white people either. minorities in Indonesia are treated like shit. Minorities in Japan are treated like shit. Minorities in Iran are treated like shit. The majority will always be be strong together and it will always want to keep as much of the pie for itself as it can. That's all there is to it. We flock into various decrees across religions, ethnicities, origins, belief systems, political systems and social systems to find likeminded people. People who are not like us are always the lowest on our list of priorities.
If you are against racial stereotyping- If you do not like that minorities are treated as a caricature to be laughed at it in sitcoms and pop culture, it really is beyond me that you would go down the same deplorable method of thinking on white people simply because the people with that skin tone have been dominant socially and economically.
Life hasn't been kind to a lot of people. A lot of people are very unhappy and depressed. They have low self esteem and low self worth- I think that some people feel their experiences are made insignificant when someone wants to put tell them how worse someone else has had it. And thats certainly understandable- After all white privilege has always been used more as a tool of provoking, doxing and shaming rather than making people mindful or letting them feel appreciative about their advantages- much more positive connotations that would have made them less defensive, less dismissive and less likely to see it as an attack.
The image of the lady on the previous page equating slavery to generalization is silly. That is just looking for causation and correlation. Slavery stopped for a wide array of reasons- all over the world. You cannot use that as a plausible argument to argue that, slavery wouldn't have stopped by being nice, so we should keep stereotyping everyone. That argument is dumb as shit.
When I think of my personal relationships with friends, family, coworkers, girlfriends, when I wanted to be understood by them, and when I wanted them to understand something, I never got far with using labels or accusations. My experience has always been that people shut off and shut down, and just become angry. And when they are angry, you cannot get through to anybody no matter how sound or rational your argument is. I've always come a lot longer by trying to appeal about how I feel and tried to say how I saw things- Making them not feel like they are being put on the spot. I've always had a lot more success being able to have other people change their opinions or understand me this way.
I don't think it has anything to do with white fragility. I just don't don't think anybody likes to be stereotyped. The argument that there will always be stereotyping so just get used to it, is also dumb. It's about as dumb as saying that everyone should keep being used to racism because it will always be there. That's a terrible approach to the situation- You always try to get better at something and moving forward. And we have moved forward in the last 4000 years. It's not even a 100 years ago that eugenics was still the scientific consensus. We've come very far in a short amount of time, and we will come way further in the next 100 years. If you look at this through a long lens throughout history you can see that a lot of good has happened. The pendulum will always swing the other way, and humanity has always been about two steps forward, one step back, but I find it childish to see this thread being loaded with straight up endorsements for endorsing stereotyping on white people throughout such a narrow tunnel vision.
Talking about white privilege in this manner as it has been in the last few years is not only counter-productive, it straight up has the opposite effect. It has the ability to make passive ignorant people straight up hostile. We own the communication we send out. You don't get to say that they are taking it wrong. You never control how the receiver responds to your message. It's your responsibility to read the people in a manner that will create a response that is desired. Nobody who works with communication defends their campaigns or messages by saying that the masses have the wrong understanding. It's your shitty communication that is the problem and your inability to come down to a playing field where you read them.
White privilege as being intended to make white people more mindful of their inane bias and privilege have failed spectacularly. It's probably one of the chief reasons that helped create the social movement we now bundle together as the Alt-right and the support for guys like Trump. Lots of white people who take their negative connotations about liberal condemnations on themselves into a ether of pure hatred. Sending their anger towards those who bring all the bad feelings.
What is productive towards making people open to helping others or changing their behavior? I know from myself that the books/interviews/articles/documentaries about food, produce, merchandise or consumer behavior that have inspired me to change or act have not been the condescending or lecturing ones, but those that tried to inform in a neutral tone and try and explain things in a way that didn't load something with trying to force a response out of me. As human beings we want to reach our own conclusions. We don't like being told what to do or what to think or how to feel, and when others try to tell us, we sometimes end up going in the opposite direction even if we agree with what is being told to us, simply because we feel a resistance to letting others tell us how to live our lives. This is a counter-prodctive way of communicating.
When you want a child to do something, you end up getting further by also being a role model to the example you're trying to set. If you tell your kid to stop being angry, it doesn't help if you're angry all the time yourself. It really is besides the point that you're an adult and in authority or that you are in your right. At the end of the day, you're still not able to live what you preach and this damages your credibility as a messenger.
Look at what gets through to people. You see a lot of donation campaigns trying to guilt people into donating to various causes struggling right now. We grow immune to the plights, and we give up. We're way more likely to donate to something we feel good about and hopeful about because it brings positive emotions and good feelings.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Dont dodge the question. I asked you what social structures can you discuss without assumptions and generalizations. Answer the question, dont spin this off. It is an easy question, answer it. I am not interested in w/e else you have to say until you answer this.
In practice this makes no difference in discussion. You are honestly naive if you think it does.
It's always amusing to me when people act like saying "some" white people is suddenly the key to ending white fragility and racism. Oh okay, I guess no one was ever smart enough to figure that out and try it. Good thing you have enlightemed everyone.
That was sarcasm for reference.
International Iron Man
Banned
This whole post, especially the end, just screams white fragility.
Messofanego
Banned
What male circles don't have a problem with rape culture? This kind of specification assumes that some men are better than others forever to never commit rape, and therefore they have nothing to worry about. When you can find rape culture, misogyny, and sexism in all male circles, I believe. Liberals, conservatives, nerds, jockeys, men of all colours, all can and have been rapists.
If someone says "men are rapists", you really would respond to them saying #notallmen? Even when men are the majority of rapists? When 1/3rd (or even more) of women are likely to be raped/sexually assaulted once in their lives, and that is coming from men. Do statistics not play a factor in generalisations? If you feel like "men are rapists" is an insult and asshole-ish behaviour to you, why is that? Feel like we're going around in circles, but isn't demanding someone change their wording to give disclaimers so that people (sorry, I meant some people!) don't feel insulted just a distraction from the real issue? Why are men rapists, and finding out the roots of these generalisations is more constructive than getting into petty semantics.
I would personally only find generalisations insulting when they're not even based on statistics or false statistics, and are creating myths or stereotypes that don't ring true for the vast majority. But you are not me, you have been harping against generalisations no matter what of any kind throughout. You and Dalibor68 are absolutist against generalisations. God forbid you two ever make a negative generalisation then about a group of people on this forum, or you'd become hypocrites.
SyenceLabb
Member
What a thoughtful response.
SyenceLabb
Member
Is that your white fragility talking?
International Iron Man
Banned
Didn't know a long drawn out post that, to be summarized, is "white people have it hard too you know, and I have a vested interest in maintaining whiteness, but you'll just ignore poor white male me since we're such bad guys" needed anything more than calling it out for what it is.
We get it. You want to dilute the phrase "white fragility".
SyenceLabb
Member
So let me get this straight. The first step to understanding racism, and how a minority of white people generalize black people, is to first generalize all white people, based on an arbitrary trait (color of skin)? Good luck with that.
As a black man, I actually feel sorry for the white folks that have this shit shoved down their throats day in and day out.
As a black man, I actually feel sorry for the white folks that have this shit shoved down their throats day in and day out.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You sure are proud not to know shit lol
A minority of white people, you say? LOL
International Iron Man
Banned
MLK Jr. had a 28% approval rating the month before he died among white people.
But tell me more about this "minority" of white people generalize black people and are invested in whiteness and white supremacy. I'm sure you have plenty of studies and polls to back up your assertion, and I'm betting at one point Sheriff David Clarke has endorsed whatever source you use.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You think no one ever tried saying some or a segment? You think the discussion is stuck because minorities are just stubborn?
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