SyenceLabb
Member
Sounds like you cosign the preaching of Malcolm X; the early Malcolm X. You know, the one that said all white men were the devil. We really going to try that one again?
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White Fragility Leads to White Violence: Why Conversations w/ White Ppl Fall Apart
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Sounds like you cosign the preaching of Malcolm X; the early Malcolm X. You know, the one that said all white men were the devil. We really going to try that one again?
If a white person is bothered by people saying that white people have privilege and benefit from systemic racism, then they didn't give a shit about fighting it in the first place. All this "don't generalize" shit is doing is steering away from the actual conversation that needs to take place. Same shit with BLM being countered with ALL lives matter. Same way Kaepernick's protest somehow turned into you're not doing it right and you better respect the military.
And every single post about that feeds into the topic so perfectly it's hard to believe it isn't satire.
And every single post about that feeds into the topic so perfectly it's hard to believe it isn't satire.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Minorities were not nice enough talking about it so it turned the good people off. True story.
Please don't.
No, it's just that you have to acknowledge white tears if you really want black lives to matter. That's an important distinction because of reasons.
Please don't generalize those tears.
I have friend who voted Trump. We're both white. He would tell me over the phone before the election "It's okay to be racist", and then when I told him it's not, that going and knocking on a Mexicans door to demand they celebrate July 4th just like they did May 5th is wrong, that people should be able to celebrate what they want and how they want, he said they should go back to Mexico. I told him he was being racist. Although he said it was ok to be racist, although he went and disturbed his Mexican neighbor, when I called him on it, he states "I'm not a racist." We haven't talked in a while.
So, there is truth to this article. It does not help, however, when people like Kanye repeat what my friend said.
So, there is truth to this article. It does not help, however, when people like Kanye repeat what my friend said.
International Iron Man
Banned
Hey, yeah because that's what I said, that all white people are the devil.
You must own a farm, because you have lots of skill at constructing strawmen.
I think white folks will okay without you white knighting for them lmfao. They got along just fine before.
Atomic Playboy
Member
I just don't know why he has to go bringing politics into an event that opens with saluting a 50,000 square foot flag while Air Force jets do a fly-by.
/s
America, where white people will unironically tell you that you have the right to protest, just not where we might inadvertently come in contact with it.
For real. I like how he shits on identity politics, which is in itself a form of white identity politics. They want the status quo.
Sunster
Member
Also, don't call us white people. We are all individuals and that hurts my feelings. When you call out racism you must use the names of each individual involved. YES that includes systemic racism. You must list the millions of individuals who simply happen to be white, when leveling such an accusation. I say accusation of course because the jury's still out on this whole, "systemic racism" thing right?
xoxo ~gentle soul
Nobody in this thread even said any of that, but I see the train has already left the station and taken it's usual turn, unfortunately.
Sunster
Member
No one ever said "fuck white people" either yet you had no problem using that direct quote to support your argument.
International Iron Man
Banned
Actually it was said, but you can pretend otherwise while making up quotes no one said yourself.
SyenceLabb
Member
Ok, Ok. I almost feel sorry for them.
Fine, whatever. Continue with your racism, generalisation and bigotry.
Except I never used a direct quote implying it was said in this very thread (similarly to how nobody in this thread said my other example "white people are delusional"), but a list of examples for what I called "insulting generalizations" that are commonly used. And yes, anyone who lurked in the US election threads will remember that those words were written multiple times.
Mammoth Jones
Member
This. Stop the bullshit.
Sunster
Member
and a few people in a thread on the internet saying "fuck white people" means what exactly?
You don't know what any of those words mean. Thick headed white people who can't have frank discussions about race and privilege are oppressors whether they realize it or not.
International Iron Man
Banned
Yes, after all, it is the black people that are the real racists, amirite?
Look at all this white fragility on display.
It's like yall rushed in here to validate the OP.
y'all living in Bizarro world
Your rejection of the existence of systemic racism at societal and political levels is what allows it to continue. Maybe don't internalize criticism of societal issues on a personal level? You are literally doing the exact thing discussed in the OP.
Question: Are white people allowed to criticise generalisations made about them in any way without being considered 'fragile'?
What generalizations are people questioning here?
If they are rejecting the idea of white privilege in American society they are fragile, plain and simple. If you cannot acknowledge the existence of such a thing you are in no position to comment on it.
International Iron Man
Banned
Gotdatmoney
Member
What generalizations exactly?
Sunster
Member
EDIT: 2 posts below me is more correct
Liljagare
Gold Member
As a white swedish male having lived in the US, I agree with the OP.
It was very evident too how it all worked when I hung out with the wrong group, the other group questioned why I did that, and I was made to suffer at work due to it.
I think you can figure out which group did what. Yeah, anecdotal, but still.
It was very evident too how it all worked when I hung out with the wrong group, the other group questioned why I did that, and I was made to suffer at work due to it.
I think you can figure out which group did what. Yeah, anecdotal, but still.
No.
Because those "generalisations" will never ever have a meaningful effect on white people as a whole. The exact opposite is true for minorities, where racism is used to actually oppress, kill, rape and rob.
White people like myself, can fucking deal with minorities not giving us the benefit of the doubt because by and large, we are too invested in keeping things quiet and stable while we reap the benefits of being the center of the universe.
Yeah, that was entirely insane. Failing viewership couldn't have anything to do with the fact that TV viewership on the whole is dropping because people are cutting the cord. No it had to be because someone dared bring up race. White fragility is the exact right term here. Maybe nobody was going to Niners games this year because they were 2-14.
If you think equality is worth fighting for and you're white, you're gonna inevitably catch strays from all sides. Some white people will go as far as calling you a race traitor and minorities are gonna inevitably remind you of the fucked up shit your people have done and give you the side eye when you slip up. You gotta shrug it off because that's simply what it takes to move forward.
I said it earlier in the thread and was ignored, so I'll say it again: If you're this soft, if you bristle at the mere mention of white privilege, if every discussion about race prompts you to immediately say 'yeah but it wasn't me though,' you're not of any use in the fight for equality anyway. People fighting for equality don't want you to bring them flowers, they want you to bring swords and armor and hold the line with them.
What your reaction should be is this: "I know you might see the enemy in me, but I understand how we got here, I think it's wrong, and I'm gonna fight along side you because I believe it's worth it." And then follow through on that promise with real intent. You vote, you write letters, you protest, you riot, and you do it in spite of the fact that someone anonymously hurt your feelings on a forum that one time because you think it's the right thing to do.
There has to be something specific to white racial identity that creates the kind of defensiveness on display.
Like, I'm straight. I've got that going for me. There is literally nothing an LGBT person has said about how oppressive, apathetic, and even outright harmful all straight people are that has caused me any undue stress. Like Louis CK said, "You can't even hurt my feelings." At the end of the day, I live in a world that values heterosexuality over other identities. Generalizations about my majority status just don't bother me, because I get the luxury of ignoring the complaints or not taking it upon myself to address them. I can shield myself with the status quo, because the status quo is all that matters. It's so fucking easy and stress-free to be part of what's "normal."
This doesn't undermine my struggle either. My mom has degenerate bone disease too, Offended Poster, along with disc issues and carpal tunnel, basically disabling her from working. My biological dad died a few years ago and threw us into near-financial ruin. I help out with my mom's issues dutifully and I healthily moved on from my father. It's life. Ultimately, I wouldn't use these struggles to deflect from the generalization straight people have it good (on the basis of being straight in situations where it matters, which is the implied half of said generalization), because they frankly don't have anything to do with the argument being made. That status quo is always gonna be there to shield me from having to face any more problems than I already have to. I didn't have to deal with being LGBT in an anti-LGBT society on top of my father dying, and I can't imagine what that's like for the people who do.
tl;dr-- perspective por favor?
Like, I'm straight. I've got that going for me. There is literally nothing an LGBT person has said about how oppressive, apathetic, and even outright harmful all straight people are that has caused me any undue stress. Like Louis CK said, "You can't even hurt my feelings." At the end of the day, I live in a world that values heterosexuality over other identities. Generalizations about my majority status just don't bother me, because I get the luxury of ignoring the complaints or not taking it upon myself to address them. I can shield myself with the status quo, because the status quo is all that matters. It's so fucking easy and stress-free to be part of what's "normal."
This doesn't undermine my struggle either. My mom has degenerate bone disease too, Offended Poster, along with disc issues and carpal tunnel, basically disabling her from working. My biological dad died a few years ago and threw us into near-financial ruin. I help out with my mom's issues dutifully and I healthily moved on from my father. It's life. Ultimately, I wouldn't use these struggles to deflect from the generalization straight people have it good (on the basis of being straight in situations where it matters, which is the implied half of said generalization), because they frankly don't have anything to do with the argument being made. That status quo is always gonna be there to shield me from having to face any more problems than I already have to. I didn't have to deal with being LGBT in an anti-LGBT society on top of my father dying, and I can't imagine what that's like for the people who do.
tl;dr-- perspective por favor?
International Iron Man
Banned
molnizzle
Member
I was just pointing out that however bad things are right now for brown people, it's not like they were better at any other time in history. The idea that you don't want to bring a child into the world now but would have, say, 10 years ago, makes no sense.
Same with the gay couples. I get it, there's still a ton of work to be done. We have a long way to go. But we're still farther along the way than we ever have been in this country. Things aren't getting worse. We just now live with the Internet, so the horrible shit that would have been a local controversy before is now broadcast worldwide. We're not getting any worse, we're just becoming more aware of the shitty situation that we've been in all along.
We suck at this and may not do better for a long while. In my experience white fragility in this context exists because white people don't see the advantage.
If a white person is having a hard life and someone tells them, your people oppress me because your have too many advantages, they aren't going to stop and think, yeah my life is hard but my situation would be even harder if I were black, they think "fuck you my shit ain't easy" or at minimum "I've got my own problems so leave me out of yours".
I would say it's human nature to be this minimally self interested, but that 1) is arguable because empathy is also human nature and 2) doesn't excuse it.
The parallel someone drew early about a woman saying all men are assholes is a wonderful point. If someone I knew said that, I know they'd be talking about the general actions of general men and how we do actually tend to be assholes. I'd apologise for my gender, take it as a reminder to be a better man, and be more inclined to call out other men pulling asshole behavior.
By the same token though if a random stranger walked up to me and told me that I'd probably just be inclined to avoid them and mutter "what the hell did I do to you". Encountering it on a forum that I frequent because it's a platform for people that share my interests, I'd lean towards the former. Don't feel a need to defend my gender on a gaming forum.
Same for my race; however, I do personally feel a stronger inclination to want to defend my race than gender. Wonder why that part of my identity has more value... maybe it's not that I give it more value, just that I, at least subconsciously, admit less that it is guilty of wrongdoing as a group than my gender.
Maybe I have more confidence as a man than as a white person? I can be proud of some aspects of my identity as a man. As a white person....
That last one feels most on the nose, though I really have no idea what I'm talking about.
If a white person is having a hard life and someone tells them, your people oppress me because your have too many advantages, they aren't going to stop and think, yeah my life is hard but my situation would be even harder if I were black, they think "fuck you my shit ain't easy" or at minimum "I've got my own problems so leave me out of yours".
I would say it's human nature to be this minimally self interested, but that 1) is arguable because empathy is also human nature and 2) doesn't excuse it.
The parallel someone drew early about a woman saying all men are assholes is a wonderful point. If someone I knew said that, I know they'd be talking about the general actions of general men and how we do actually tend to be assholes. I'd apologise for my gender, take it as a reminder to be a better man, and be more inclined to call out other men pulling asshole behavior.
By the same token though if a random stranger walked up to me and told me that I'd probably just be inclined to avoid them and mutter "what the hell did I do to you". Encountering it on a forum that I frequent because it's a platform for people that share my interests, I'd lean towards the former. Don't feel a need to defend my gender on a gaming forum.
Same for my race; however, I do personally feel a stronger inclination to want to defend my race than gender. Wonder why that part of my identity has more value... maybe it's not that I give it more value, just that I, at least subconsciously, admit less that it is guilty of wrongdoing as a group than my gender.
Maybe I have more confidence as a man than as a white person? I can be proud of some aspects of my identity as a man. As a white person....
That last one feels most on the nose, though I really have no idea what I'm talking about.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Sorry about your folks. That's a bummer.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Quoted for fucking truth!
Love how I can see some posters up in here from the EU who have zero fucking problems generalizing a marginalized group in the EU cry their white tears about people generalizing against the white majority who wields the power.
Thank you
Thank you for your concern, but we're actually doing pretty good. My mom is getting windfalls out the ass from her pensions and military (literally left an hour ago for a weekend trip,) and she also remarried her army sweetheart last year and it's the happiest I've ever seen her. Struggles are struggles, and can be overcome or dealt with appropriately. But even in the dark times, I didn't for once think that I had it just as bad as an LGBT person in the same situation.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You know I understand taking things personally in an everyday discussion that spins off. But how can the topic literally be racism and white fragility and we already need to start from the point bitching about "not all of us doe"?
How can that be seen as anything "but" being fragile?
How can that be seen as anything "but" being fragile?
Frozenprince
Banned
I get it, generalizations hurt.
Know how I get it?
Cause people make them about me literally every single day. Yes, it sucks that sometimes, you're gonna catch a stray because someone goes off on a "fuck white people" rant. But until you have to deal with someone ranting and raving about how much they loved "insert ethnic thing here" to their minority cashier, you could do with some perspective.
Know how I get it?
Cause people make them about me literally every single day. Yes, it sucks that sometimes, you're gonna catch a stray because someone goes off on a "fuck white people" rant. But until you have to deal with someone ranting and raving about how much they loved "insert ethnic thing here" to their minority cashier, you could do with some perspective.
molnizzle
Member
I don't think it has to do with white identity, but rather "hetero guilt" (or whatever you want to call it). I mean, I'm 30 years old. For the vast majority of my life the word "gay" was synonmous with bad, and "faggot" was the default insult. When I think about it now, I feel guilty because I have vivid memories of saying horrible shit that I know must have been extremely hurtful to many different people. I recognize my role in perpetuating an oppressive situation and I feel responsible. I want to make amends.
I've never been a racist person though. I used to be a homophobe, but I've never been a racist. Never used the n-word or treated someone differently because of the color of their skin. So for me, it was difficult to accept that when PoC say some bad shit about "white people," they're not necessarily implying that I'm responsible for their struggles. I feel bad for them, but I don't feel responsible. It took a long time for me to understand that the person speaking knew that about me and wasn't implying otherwise. I think "white fragility" exists because most white people don't reach that level of understanding.
As for how to help them understand... I have no idea.
Discussions on race relations need to continue happen, but starting out with terms like White Fragility only puts people on the defense. It's like that NPR article that said screaming at people, calling them racists isn't the best way to move the discussion forward.
I don't know why generalizing an entire race is allowed.
When you say you want people to riot, what exactly do you mean? What would this righteous riot specifically entail?
I don't know why generalizing an entire race is allowed.
When you say you want people to riot, what exactly do you mean? What would this righteous riot specifically entail?
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