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White liberals and the issue of intellectual racism vs. emotional racism

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Viewt

Member
I feel like I should start out by saying that I don’t have any studies or numbers, and that this isn’t meant as a condemnation or a definitive statement. I just think it’s a conversation worth having, and I wanted to share my experiences in the hope that it might resonate with some of you.

I’m a straight white guy. Well, mostly white, I guess. My father is Cuban, and I have a Spanish last name, but since I’ve anglicized it (removing the tilde and pronouncing it a more anglo-friendly way), it’s more often confused for Italian, honestly. So while I’m technically biracial, I look white, and most people assume as much until they learn differently. So my life experience on a daily basis is that of a white person.

In additional to being a straight white(ish) guy, I’m also a liberal. I think social safety nets are the bees knees, I think our wealth disparity is one of the worst issues we’re facing today, and I’m all for a more practical view on drugs, specifically in referring offenders to treatment instead of prison, and legalization for the less dangerous substances. I also think the Confederate Flag is a garbage rag for racist fucks. I’m very much anti-racist. Most white liberal guys are. But the issue is that, from my experience within the white liberal community, there isn’t so much a problem with intellectual racism, but rather emotional racism.

So what do I mean by that? Let’s start with defining what I mean by those two terms.

From my perspective, intellectual racism is knowing, on a purely academic level, that racism is wrong. Slavery was awful, the Civil Rights Movement was completely necessary and racism (towards all minorities, not just those that are black) is still totally an issue that plagues society today. It’s basically the same as admitting the sky is blue. As long as you’re not too deep in a pool of cognitive dissonance, most people are on the same page about this.

Emotional racism is trickier, though. Emotional racism is being a little uncomfortable in a room full of black guys because you feel outnumbered. Emotional racism is walking up to the white teller at the bank instead of the Latino one because you think it’s more likely they’ll speak English. Emotional racism is the monolith built by these tiny, seemingly invisible moments of racial tension. And herein lies the issue.

See, it’s VERY easy to shrug off emotional racism when you feel like it doesn’t define you as a person. I mean, sure, I’ll maybe cross the street if I see a bunch of thug-looking black guys walking on the sidewalk, but that doesn’t make me a RACIST, right? I mean, it’s not like I’m actually hurting anyone, am I? Well, yes, I am. My behavior may be invisible to the world at large (or even to that group of guys who just aren’t dressed up that day for whatever reason), but it isn’t invisible to me. And every time I justify it to myself as a reasonable action, it becomes more and more default behavior. And after a while, it actually becomes who I am. I become the guy who won’t go to the South Side of Chicago because I don’t want to deal with seeing poor brown people. I become the guy who doesn’t want to see Straight Outta Compton on opening night because I “don’t want to deal with the crowds wink wink.” And once that’s just who you are, you become a small part of institutional racism.

(For the record, the South Side of Chicago is rad, and I totally saw Straight Outta Compton opening night and laughed my ass off when I saw a guy in my theater spark up a Black N Mild)

So now that we’ve established what intellectual vs. emotional racism is and how the latter actually DOES affect you as a person, let’s get back to white liberals.

Just like any other group, white liberals aren’t actually a monolith, so understand that the group I’m really referring to is the kind of white liberal who grew up in a middle class (or even upper-middle class) environment, took Gifted and Advanced classes through school and went to a liberal university to get their degree. And now they’re “politically active” in a way that requires very little of them in the way of actual action. Stuff like getting into arguments on Twitter and citing think pieces on Salon during conversation.

This guy (or gal - white liberal ladies are equally guilty of this, and white feminism is a whole other thing that I’m not nearly qualified to speak on) grew up being told that they were smart, that they were well-read, and that they’re part of the superior liberal society. There is a TREMENDOUS superiority complex that white liberals have, because by being on the right side of intellectual racism, they believe they’re absolved of their emotional racism. And beyond that, this superiority complex breeds venom for anyone who even disagrees with them, let alone points out some of their own flaws.

That’s how you get to situations where a bunch of Bernie Sanders supports are in constant arguments with the Black Lives Matter group. On an intellectual level, white liberals want the same thing - equality for black people. But they want it in a vague and distant way that suits them. They want black people to be free of discrimination, but they want it on THEIR terms. They want it achieved in a way that isn’t inconvenient or obtrusive to their own goals. White liberals of this ilk see themselves as being a part of that superior, morally bulletproof society, so why should they take their attention away from Bernie Sanders to give mental real estate to a bunch of black people? Don’t black people know that white liberals already know what’s best for them?

Look, we’re all guilty of emotional racism sometimes. I’ll totally admit it - I catch myself thinking something racist every once in a while, for sure. But I think what you have to do in that situation is not just bury it down, but take a moment and think about WHY you made that choice, and make a note to correct it in the future. It’s not as easy as flipping a switch, but ignoring the issue only makes it worse. As white liberals, we need to understand that we’re not inherently superior to anyone else, and actually take time to LISTEN to people to broaden our perspectives.

I’d love it if folks who belong to different minorities would share their experiences with white liberals, and explain how they were treated. I hope it went well, but deep down, I’m sure a lot of it came off as patronizing at best and downright vile at worst. But I think it’s important for us to examine those experiences and look inward. I can’t fix anybody else, but I can fix me, and I hope that by talking to more people outside of my comfort zone, I’ll actually become a better person.

What do you guys think? Do you feel similarly, or are my experiences not indicative of your own? Again, I don’t have statistics or numbers or studies to refer to here, so I’d welcome any dissenting opinion if there’s something I’ve passed over or ignored. Ultimately, I’d love it if we (and especially I) can learn something from this word vomit haha.

I also went ahead and just bolded the main points for people who don't have time to read all of that. ;)
 

Slayven

Member
They want it achieved in a way that isn’t inconvenient or obtrusive to their own goals.

Bars

I am glad you wrote that, a lot of inconvenient truths there and i look forward to the responses
 
I would subscribe to your newsletter.

Everyone is a little racist.

Real uncomfortable truth that no one wants to sit with. Especially white liberals who have built up a sense of self around the idea that they will be on the right side of history.

As a white guy, I feel all I can really do is take people as they are and do my best to accept individuals including how their particular culture shaped them. There's no way for me to try and relate to anyone of color that doesn't come off as "Well I have black friends and..." so the conversation feels pointless.
 

Skelter

Banned
See, it’s VERY easy to shrug off emotional racism when you feel like it doesn’t define you as a person. I mean, sure, I’ll maybe cross the street if I see a bunch of thug-looking black guys walking on the sidewalk, but that doesn’t make me a RACIST, right? I mean, it’s not like I’m actually hurting anyone, am I? Well, yes, I am. My behavior may be invisible to the world at large (or even to that group of guys who just aren’t dressed up that day for whatever reason), but it isn’t invisible to me. And every time I justify it to myself as a reasonable action, it becomes more and more default behavior. And after a while, it actually becomes who I am. I become the guy who won’t go to the South Side of Chicago because I don’t want to deal with seeing poor brown people. I become the guy who doesn’t want to see Straight Outta Compton on opening night because I “don’t want to deal with the crowds wink wink.” And once that’s just who you are, you become a small part of institutional racism



Everyone is a little racist. Now, I don't think this means we all hate each other but growing in a country like America, where race is so ingrained to everything we do, you can't help but be a little emotionally racist.

But I'm fine around Black people. I live in Jamaica, Queens so it's not a big deal to me. I think we need to accept that everyone has some kind of thoughts that cast any other race in a negative light. It's NOT a big deal. We're not acting on them for the most part but when I'm at a friends place in Bushwick I can't help be annoyed by the Puerto Ricans blasting music at 3 am. I'm a Turkish/Honduran male that grew up in Spanish communities so I don't really think I'm being anything other than annoyed. I agree that people all think they aren't racist but


I would subscribe to your newsletter.



Real uncomfortable truth that no one wants to sit with. Especially white liberals who have built up a sense of self around the idea that they will be on the right side of history.

As a white guy, I feel all I can really do is take people as they are and do my best to accept individuals including how their particular culture shaped them. There's no way for me to try and relate to anyone of color that doesn't come off as "Well I have black friends and..." so the conversation feels pointless.


I can understand why a white liberal would feel uncomfortable but fuck it, they need to accept their history. I can accept how we're perceived in America but that doesn't mean I agree with the shit Trump says and neither does the majority. White liberals need to stop being scared to speak their mind. I think being PC does prevent people from feeling comfortable when talking about race.
 
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Well written OP. As one of the people you're talking about (White Liberal middle class) this was really well written and made me think of my behavior. I mean, just looking over my past week and I see times when I've done this unconsciously/without really thinking of it.
 

Lunar15

Member
This actually defines something I've been thinking about a lot. It's definitely a thing that happens and I have to catch myself.

I think at the same time, "judging people based outward appearances" goes far beyond simply race and it's part of our decision making process. This doesn't make it right and it doesn't justify it at all, but think of it this way: If I saw a bunch of biker gang looking dudes hanging around a bar, I probably woudln't go to that bar. Now, plenty of bikers are perfectly friendly, fun people, but the stereotype is there and I have to work through it. I have to be aware that i'm stereotyping.

The problem, as you mention, is that it's just simply not addressed. It's taken as a given when it's not, particularly in "intellectual" circles.
 

OceanBlue

Member
Just chiming in to say it isn't restricted to whites. I'm an Asian democrat and I'm definitely not immune to implicit racism. Same with other Asian democrats I know.
 

Neo C.

Member
The only advice I can give is to confront oneself with uncomfortable situations often and knowingly. Working with asylum seekers, I now feel pretty fine among arabic speaking people. Not that there's something wrong with the language itself, but it needs effort to overcome one's own prejudices.

Of course the opposite could also happen and one could solidify his own prejudices.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
This is 100% true. I've also noticed that many white liberals think casual racism is okay because "I'm not really racist".
 

FreezeSSC

Member
I guess the problem is now your asking people to get out of their comfort zones, are you going to force them to? Are they wrong to hold these beliefs? Its not illegal to think like that so what can you really do? I watched a video of Obama reading a portion of his book dreams of my father back in 1995, and in it he describes how one morning his grandparents got into a fight because his grandmother didn't want to take the bus because a black man hassled her for money, how do you solve how people perceive things?
 
Great post and absolutely true.it's important to identify amd be honest with yourself and your shortcomings and not be comfortable with the fact that you don't agree with racist mentalities and political movement.
 
I think you're not far off.

I'm white, all my friends are white, and we're absolutely all well-educated liberals to some extent or another (though I'm not fond of the label personally, it's a reasonable shorthand).

I see this a lot more online than I do with the people I know in person though. Most of my white liberal friends live in cities now, and none of them are wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, so while they don't generally live in the worst areas, they do live in a far more racially-diverse environment than any of us grew up in. I think that's helped them become more aware of racial issues in general, and it's certainly helped me as well.

The most politically-opinionated and -active of my friends are the sort without the time or money to do much on a broader scale, but they'll absolutely blow off a weekend to march in Baltimore, for instance.

Personally, I don't do that kind of thing because I don't think the exchange of time/effort on my part offers a sufficient return and I try to avoid making gestures purely on sentiment. That said, I absolutely support #blm, and I fully support the movement doing whatever it feels it needs to do. I cannot even remotely begin to understand the plight of the modern black man, woman, family, or community, and as such, I don't feel qualified to say "Do this, but not that".

And yeah, I think the emotional racism thing is on point, and I've tried to make a habit in the last few years of paying more attention to that kind of thing, both in myself, and in others I associate with.
 
Good stuff, OP.

Being called a racist is considered pretty much the worst thing in the world. That seems like a good thing but...

I think an unfortunate byproduct of this is that it's made people unwilling to recognize or examine their own racial biases. Once you've cemented "I'm not a racist" as part of your identity, you disallow yourself from dealing with later issues.

Furthermore, the way we deal with people we call racist is moronic. You might as well give people a scarlet letter R and say they're forever branded. We don't allow people to grow and deal with internal issues very well in modern society. We do so much to reduce human complexity to a heuristic "racist/not racist" that it really stifles our ability to deal with what you term "emotional racism."
 

Viewt

Member
I guess the problem is now your asking people to get out of their comfort zones, are you going to force them to? Are they wrong to hold these beliefs? Its not illegal to think like that so what can you really do? I watched a video of Obama reading a portion of his book dreams of my father back in 1995, and in it he describes how one morning his grandparents got into a fight because his grandmother didn't want to take the bus because a black man hassled her for money, how do you solve how people perceive things?

I definitely can't force anyone to get out of their comfort zones. I can only relate my own experiences and thoughts and hope it resonates with someone.

As for whether they're wrong, they're wrong to me, and I think many others would agree, but I'm not infallible, and I can't make something that's subjective objective.

And yeah, I have no idea how to solve the way others perceive things. All we can do is talk to each other, ya know?
 

rabidbot

Neo Member
I think sadly emotional racism will always exist, for all humans, in varying degrees. As long as humans look, talk, act, and think different there will be some friction. Its an animal response to the unfamiliar.

I think recognizing it is a huge step in not allowing it to influence the actions you take. I don't think you can get away from the tribal mindset ( or maybe you can but its so ingrained its so much part of being an animal that it seems unlikely) but I think you can keep yourself from taking action on those thoughts.

Hopefully over time that emotional racism lessens and lessens as outside influences become less and less racist and society becomes diverse. Leaving us with only small animal responses to the unknown or unfamiliar that are easy to keep in check.
 

dsp

Member
I guess the problem is now your asking people to get out of their comfort zones, are you going to force them to? Are they wrong to hold these beliefs? Its not illegal to think like that so what can you really do? I watched a video of Obama reading a portion of his book dreams of my father back in 1995, and in it he describes how one morning his grandparents got into a fight because his grandmother didn't want to take the bus because a black man hassled her for money, how do you solve how people perceive things?

You will never solve that, but by talking about these things you can definitely make improvements,
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I don't particularly think being a little more mindful or uncomfortable around people who look or act differently than you is emotional racism; at a pretty basic evolutionary level we tend to cluster around people who are like us, and appearances are one of those ways that manifests. Even if we "solved" racism so that a poor black kid from Detroit really does have the exact same shot at the presidency as the same kid who's white, the one asian kid in the midwest school is gonna' feel a little like he doesn't belong. That's life. It's a problem in that probably a lot of racial issues in the US and elsewhere are exacerbated by the self-segregation of populations (creating a lack of understanding and "othering" groups), but to me that in and of itself doesn't seem to be the cause of racism, it's an aggravating factor.

I do think you have a point in that if one doesn't check oneself on why they reacted in the way they did, they can miss out on some critical insight and can ingrain bad behaviors or default responses, and that's broader than issues of racial prejudice (that's basically the point of the oft-quoted David Foster Wallace graduation speech, really.)
 
I think many people feel emotional racism in their lives. I know I have, and sometimes still do. The important thing is that you remain conscious about it, check it, give people the benefit of the doubt, be mindful. It takes real effort, like having any connection to other people does. Relationships where no one invests any energy fizzle out.

There's a feeling to the kind of defensiveness and recoil that racist fear has that feels like you're operating from your small, unevolved brain. Your "not my tribe" gland activates and your posture stiffens. Fight or flight. You actually have to engage higher thinking over that static and noise.

I also have done things to understand more about other people's experiences. I take classes, read think pieces, eat the food, listen to all kinds of music from other cultures than my own, travel... I've even seen every film on this list and made a point of doing that.

Most of all it helps to live in a city and make some friends from different backgrounds, too.

Emotional racism is pretty prevalent but I think of it as a manageable disease that we all have to keep treating within ourselves. Give ourselves insulin shots of compassion and empathy. I do it because I want people to think about how I make them feel and smile.

This is an embarrassing post to write, honestly. I think most white people just would really rather not admit this about themselves because the atrocities of institutional racism in the US are so ugly and we in no way want to be associated with them, so appearing or being called racist in any way makes people very defensive. The "call out culture" online has done a lot to raise the stakes and tension around these issues too. But I think a lot of people develop this kind of xenophobia because they don't act on it - there's no exposure therapy for them, so tribalism sits there untempered, inside them.

It's a pity, because so much good could come from just admitting, "yes, I feel that way sometimes" -- it's an honest starting point for discussion and growth. I don't think any group is 100% perfect on racial views or relations, but the fear of taking the first step (admitting there is a problem) is very high.
 
It's more unconscious than explicit. More body language than verbal.

Funnily enough, it was videos like Diet Racism and Reckless Tortuga's Racism in the... series along with other comedic videos about privilege where white people are treated differently in real life situations versus other groups that were informative. Buzzfeed's What Is Privilege is a more serious video that applies more to me as a middle class, pretty well off pakistani dude where I don't have to worry about my next meal and have access to a lot of things. Also, developing empathy for others and trying to see it from their eyes of what my actions might seem to them and whether I'd like to be treated the same way.

It's funny as a brown person, when the only free seat on a bus will be next to me and yet no white person wants to sit there. Fine, I'll put my bag on the empty seat and claim it :D

If there is any group I have emotional thoughts about is white football fans, especially when they're drunk, I'm scared on public transport that they might deck me.
 
I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about implicit vs explicit bias, or is this something entirely different?

Regardless, I think life experiences tend to shape how people react in these situations. If a certain narrative is constantly reinforced, especially while growing up, it's more likely to stick. If you experience something that deeply affects you emotionally, it's possible that you'll develop a sense of unease when confronted with imagery or situations that make you recall the event(s). Many people find it difficult to truly empathize with others—in other words, take on another's perspective and try to feel it—which only helps to keep stereotypes and biases in place. However, in-group favoritism, that is, a preference for people similar to you, is a central part of how humans behave. While this may be true, I think the best way to confront these biases is through perspective-taking. It's impossible to totally rid ourselves of these unconscious biases, but we can attempt to lessen it and learn to be more empathetic.

Another issue here is that often, people are too consumed by their own problems and situations to really sit down and make the effort. The last thing on their mind is putting in the work to become more empathetic when they barely have enough time to do the things they enjoy, and it's a really unfortunate situation in all respects. Of course, in many cases, these are unconscious biases, so when they're flat-out called racist, misogynist, etc., they're taken aback and become defensive. Perspective-taking also helps when we want to address people who may hold these biases.
 

Cagey

Banned
Just like any other group, white liberals aren’t actually a monolith, so understand that the group I’m really referring to is the kind of white liberal who grew up in a middle class (or even upper-middle class) environment, took Gifted and Advanced classes through school and went to a liberal university to get their degree. And now they’re “politically active” in a way that requires very little of them in the way of actual action. Stuff like getting into arguments on Twitter and citing think pieces on Salon during conversation.

This guy (or gal - white liberal ladies are equally guilty of this, and white feminism is a whole other thing that I’m not nearly qualified to speak on) grew up being told that they were smart, that they were well-read, and that they’re part of the superior liberal society. There is a TREMENDOUS superiority complex that white liberals have, because by being on the right side of intellectual racism, they believe they’re absolved of their emotional racism. And beyond that, this superiority complex breeds venom for anyone who even disagrees with them, let alone points out some of their own flaws.

..

What do you guys think? Do you feel similarly, or are my experiences not indicative of your own?

I don't know anyone who is "politically active" in the sense they get into arguments on Twitter. I know people who are well read and stay current on important events. I managed to escape school before this really took off among classmates.

From personal experiences and observations in life as someone who can superficially "pass" as belonging to a socioeconomic level that I'm certainly not a member of, the perspective of liberal-leaning people from higher income, upper-middle to low-upper class backgrounds lends itself to feeling superior in myriad ways. The intellectual aspect is a very strong one and breeds a "Big Brother Knows Best" mentality when they're discussing the ills and perils of those who need help in society (the poor and powerless; poor and powerless minorities in particular).

The cushier the upbringing, the more they remained in a perspective echo chamber (wealthy suburb => Duke undergrad for PoliSci => Harvard Law, as a hypothetical). These traits were commonly shared by the most liberal politically active students I encountered in law school without care for color or gender or religion. There was far more similarity in this condescending worldview across economic strata than other cognizable groupings.

Among white liberals, I can guarantee there was a subconsciously racist element from this brand of white liberal to their "I know best" condescension aimed towards poor black and Hispanic people compared to when it's aimed at poor whites or Asians. It was present in all of the liberals I describe above, but moreso and more readily apparent from the white ones.

As nothing but an anecdote, when I would describe working in the middle of Harlem to some of these people, I would get the "is it safe? that's a rough area, any concerns about working there?" questions. From people I went to school with blocks away from Harlem. Who knew what it was like. Really? You know it's safe, friend. What's the question actually getting at.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
We are all vulnerable to prejudice.

This will exist as long as stereotypes exist and especially when we are constantly bombarded by them.

You can even be prejudiced against your own group. Maybe less prejudiced because you have your own experiences but still are exposed to all kinds of other sources of bias.

I really really recommend this book to anyone who wants a more academic and psychological scientific look into how prejudice and stereotypes affect everyone, minorities, majorities, and our interactions.

Whistling Vivaldi
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0393339726/?tag=neogaf0e-20
 

JZA

Member
The situations that OP mentions sort of reminds me of that recent commotion around University of California and "microaggressions", are these along the same lines?
 
A friend of mine in high school posed the question "A black friend and a white friend both offer you a sip of whatever they're drinking when you say you're thirsty. Which one do you drink after?"

Everyone got this uncomfortable look on their face. Some defended it, and I'll be honest I just kind of sat there ashamed for my gut reaction. Sure, this was back in the mid-90's, but then or now doesn't really make a difference.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it's important that we (white folks) confront ourselves, as in, when these immediate, knee-jerk feelings or thoughts pop up, stop yourself and do the other thing. And when we GET confronted on it, it's important to listen and to acknowledge that. I've been there, and I'm still breathing, so I'm confident in saying that "you'll live" if you acknowledge that you did something wrong.

I don't think that anyone hates me for when/where I was raised and how the attitudes and views of my parents fish-hook their way into my head, but I know that those hooks are wrong, and I think that if I didn't confront that and attempt to do the right thing, then people would, and they'd not be wrong to do it. Hate me, or extremely dislike me, that is.

Many, MANY of us are guilty of being racists, either outright at one point in our lives, or knowingly benefiting from the privilege we have, or when that subconscious racist view pops in your head. But it's wrong, and you can't be complacent with toxic shit like that. Tell it to fuck off and do what you know is right.

I also don't think we're going to "fix" it...it's not something that can be fixed. But if our generation fights it, and we don't expose our children to those incorrect, evil as fuck perceptions and judgments, then we can progressively make the world a better place for everyone. Provided we don't destroy the world first, that is.

Sorry if that came off as rambling, but I found OP really thought provoking, and it kind of came out as a mess.
 
I don't know anyone who is "politically active" in the sense they get into arguments on Twitter. I know people who are well read and stay current on important events. I managed to escape school before this really took off among classmates.

From personal experiences and observations in life as someone who can superficially "pass" as belonging to a socioeconomic level that I'm certainly not a member of, the perspective of liberal-leaning people from higher income, upper-middle to low-upper class backgrounds lends itself to feeling superior in myriad ways. The intellectual aspect is a very strong one and breeds a "Big Brother Knows Best" mentality when they're discussing the ills and perils of those who need help in society (the poor and powerless; poor and powerless minorities in particular).

The cushier the upbringing, the more they remained in a perspective echo chamber (wealthy suburb => Duke undergrad for PoliSci => Harvard Law, as a hypothetical). These traits were commonly shared by the most liberal politically active students I encountered in law school without care for color or gender or religion. There was far more similarity in this condescending worldview across economic strata than other cognizable groupings.

Among white liberals, I can guarantee there was a subconsciously racist element from this brand of white liberal to their "I know best" condescension aimed towards poor black and Hispanic people compared to when it's aimed at poor whites or Asians. It was present in all of the liberals I describe above, but moreso and more readily apparent from the white ones.

As nothing but an anecdote, when I would describe working in the middle of Harlem to some of these people, I would get the "is it safe? that's a rough area, any concerns about working there?" questions. From people I went to school with blocks away from Harlem. Who knew what it was like. Really? You know it's safe, friend. What's the question actually getting at.

I actually don't think this is as damning as you're implying. People associate low-income areas with crime, which East Harlem in particular certainly demonstrates.
 

Aiustis

Member
Great post. I think though, that a lot of it goes hand in hand. It's the subtle emotional racism that cost people jobs, get them harsher sentencing etc.
 
Good post, though I've never really seen a racial side to Bernie Sanders. Not to say you are trying to express that, I just feel like what happened was, Vermont has a very low Black population count. I don't know if he is well versed in expressing political ideologies for the community. Hopefully he will get better.

If anyone on twitter or what not are being jackasses, screw them.

Also, I'd like a longer explanation about intellectual racism


A friend of mine in high school posed the question "A black friend and a white friend both offer you a sip of whatever they're drinking when you say you're thirsty. Which one do you drink after?"

Depends on the drink, to be honest.
 

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
This is something I am so guilty of on an unconscious level. I'm not making excuses for it, as much as I'm explaining it. Growing up in Idaho is weird because you rarely ever meet minorities. Combine that with me being the most anxious person ever, and I'm always worried that I'm going to say something stupid or make someone uncomfortable.

I've never had an overtly racist thought in my life, but I've had plenty of moments where I alter my behavior around other races and find myself ashamed. It's like when someone reminds you that you are breathing, and then all of a sudden each breath feels weird and controlled instead of something automatic. If I can't avoid interactions with people I don't know, I take on a more outwardly friendly and extroverted facade, that's especially true with people of different races. I do it so that they know I'm friendly and not racist. That change in behavior is absolutely racist and I know I don't come across as a genuine person in that moment. I don't know how to explain it. There isn't hatred in my heart, there is awkwardness and a fear that I'm going to be misunderstood. That's not a fair thing to put on anyone else.

I don't think it's white guilt, maybe it is. Maybe it's white guilt's little brother. White awkward. In any case, it is shitty.
 

linkboy

Member
A friend of mine in high school posed the question "A black friend and a white friend both offer you a sip of whatever they're drinking when you say you're thirsty. Which one do you drink after?"

Everyone got this uncomfortable look on their face. Some defended it, and I'll be honest I just kind of sat there ashamed for my gut reaction. Sure, this was back in the mid-90's, but then or now doesn't really make a difference.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it's important that we (white folks) confront ourselves, as in, when these immediate, knee-jerk feelings or thoughts pop up, stop yourself and do the other thing. And when we GET confronted on it, it's important to listen and to acknowledge that. I've been there, and I'm still breathing, so I'm confident in saying that "you'll live" if you acknowledge that you did something wrong.

I don't think that anyone hates me for when/where I was raised and how the attitudes and views of my parents fish-hook their way into my head, but I know that those hooks are wrong, and I think that if I didn't confront that and attempt to do the right thing, then people would, and they'd not be wrong to do it. Hate me, or extremely dislike me, that is.

Many, MANY of us are guilty of being racists, either outright at one point in our lives, or knowingly benefiting from the privilege we have, or when that subconscious racist view pops in your head. But it's wrong, and you can't be complacent with toxic shit like that. Tell it to fuck off and do what you know is right.

I also don't think we're going to "fix" it...it's not something that can be fixed. But if our generation fights it, and we don't expose our children to those incorrect, evil as fuck perceptions and judgments, then we can progressively make the world a better place for everyone. Provided we don't destroy the world first, that is.

Sorry if that came off as rambling, but I found OP really thought provoking, and it kind of came out as a mess.

No, it makes a lot of sense. I'm the same way. My dad, grandma, aunt and uncle are all hardcore racists (and that's why I don't associate with them all that often).

Has some of that seeped onto me, yes and i do my best to avoid thinking like that.
 

rabidbot

Neo Member
Great post. I think though, that a lot of it goes hand in hand. It's the subtle emotional racism that cost people jobs, get them harsher sentencing etc.

I think the harsher sentencing is just plain ole racist shit. Sentencing isn't a knee jerk response.
 

LionPride

Banned
Fantastic writeup. I've noticed that certain white people I hang around do or say certain things around black people who aren't me. I'm 100% positive that I am one of the good ones to many people I associate with.
 

HORRORSHØW

Member
as a korean dude with face and neck tattoos, it amused me when my professors were taken aback by my literacy, articulation, and poetic proficiency. were they surprised that someone who looks like me talks like them? did they feel uneasy by my ability to challenge them on an intellectual level?

but this isn't relegated to strictly white liberals; i get the same reaction from koreans too, insofar they think i'm some street thug but are surprised by my degrees. i mean, they're not necessarily wrong but i'm so much more than that. and i think that's one of the big issues with emotional racism: we fail to see people as individuals. their idiosyncrasies and personal nuances are often ignored in favor of macro prejudices.

"that black guy looks like..."

"that hispanic girl seems..."

these are assumptions based on ignorance and some deep-seated fear.
 
There is the issue of lack of exposure. There are maybe three black people in the office of ~400 where I work. In my high school graduating class there were maybe five black people out of 200. My college classes had similar ratios. And I live in a fairly urban area.

It is incredibly easy and common for white people to never interact with black people beyond a superficial level. As a result perceptions of black people are more heavily influenced by the media, which is inherently racist. As long as this is the case emotional racism will always exist.
 

marrec

Banned
Fantastic stuff OP and something I've thought and written about quite a lot. I want to put some thoughts down specifically on your post but am on mobile right now so it'll have to wait.

I just want to quickly say that the phenomenon you've describe is 100% something that is rampant in white liberal media and on white liberal social media. We're so uncomfortable as a majority group with talking about our own failings and racist biases and habits that any discussion on the topic quickly turns into and emotional slugfest of defensive white liberals desperately trying to deny or downplay racism, inherent or overt or otherwise.

I have a lot more to say but it'll have to wait for later. :(
 

Sanjuro

Member
Great post. I'm from a heavy liberal area myself, so I often express the same feelings to a similar degree. One point you mentioned, is the white liberal feeling very comfortable in their surroundings.

For example, I've had a friend who is always very socially active on black rights, police, and similar topics that have been predominantly in the news. That individual relocated to a local area which contains a decent liberal presence, however is mixed with a large population of blue collar workers who are both white and a variety of minorities. That person's postings instantly changed from progressive postings, to ranting on the activities, dialect, attitude of these particular people.

There are plenty other examples, and when I have brought them up I'm usually dismissed as a non-progressive or something of this nature. Fast paced, instant validation, and gratification usually comes with one's line of thinking in these environments and social media.

I believe tolerance and empathy in real life scenarios are incredibly lacking.
 
Don’t black people know that white liberals already know what’s best for them?

This is what gets me. The absolute conceited arrogance that drips with condescension. If only we'd know our place...and trust that White liberals are just here to help.
 
I'm a white liberal myself and I absolutely agree on the "white people want black people to be be treated right as long as it's convenient for them" observation. As an extension of that, whenever I see all that "both sides need to be doing their part," "when everyone started looting their message was lost," etc. stuff I immediately call bullshit. It's a false equivalence because one of those two things has been systematically wearing down the other for hundreds of years. It'd be like making two adult cats fight and then putting food in front of them only to tell the cat that lost "you can eat too, just don't get in the way of the winning cat." White people are going to have to get knocked down a peg or two and pick the gravel from their knees in stride if we're ever going to have a chance at actual, factual equality. If things stay "neutral" and people of color are only ever allowed to progress if it means white people aren't concerned or compromised in the process they are never going to truly catch up. You're asking one race to magically increase its rate of "improvement" within society in order to catch up to a juggernaut that's been running the show and force-feeding its own growth exponentially for centuries.
 
This is something I am so guilty of on an unconscious level. I'm not making excuses for it, as much as I'm explaining it. Growing up in Idaho is weird because you rarely ever meet minorities. Combine that with me being the most anxious person ever, and I'm always worried that I'm going to say something stupid or make someone uncomfortable.

I've never had an overtly racist thought in my life, but I've had plenty of moments where I alter my behavior around other races and find myself ashamed. It's like when someone reminds you that you are breathing, and then all of a sudden each breath feels weird and controlled instead of something automatic. If I can't avoid interactions with people I don't know, I take on a more outwardly friendly and extroverted facade, that's especially true with people of different races. I do it so that they know I'm friendly and not racist. That change in behavior is absolutely racist and I know I don't come across as a genuine person in that moment. I don't know how to explain it. There isn't hatred in my heart, there is awkwardness and a fear that I'm going to be misunderstood. That's not a fair thing to put on anyone else.

I don't think it's white guilt, maybe it is. Maybe it's white guilt's little brother. White awkward. In any case, it is shitty.

This is the kind of post I wanted (others too who posted before him), This is some introspective stuff that I really like to see.

As a black man, you're basically living my life. I act a certain way around my white coworkers because I have to be as non threatening as possible. I smile a lot (i hate smiling), try to to avoid talking politics (gotta avoid that of course he's a liberal look), make sure to never lose my temper in ANY way shape or form (cant be labeled the angry black man) and even outside of work it affects how I act.

It's tiring and you deserve props for posting this imo. (so does OP)
 
You know, I'm in college right now, and I see a lot of what you are talking about OP. Lots of white liberals around who see the treatment minorities face among the police (to provide an example) as wrong. However, many of these white liberals grew up in predominately white neighborhoods, and probably aren't used to being around anyone who is not white. And due to the overwhelming amount of white people who go to colleges (especially at VT, though there are lots of Asians) as compared to minorities, it's unlikely they surround themselves with those who aren't white. I've had friends who feel the need to point out when they are surrounded by people who aren't white, because they feel the need to. It's like they are in a new world.

I say this as a white guy, who is incidentally liberal. However, I'm used to being around a diverse group of people, as I went to a schools in a district that was majority Black. I've never thought to say "Wow, lot of *insert group of people here*". It seems really silly.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
This is the kind of post I wanted (others too who posted before him), This is some introspective stuff that I really like to see.

As a black man, you're basically living my life. I act a certain way around my white coworkers because I have to be as non threatening as possible. I smile a lot (i hate smiling), try to to avoid talking politics (gotta avoid that of course he's a liberal look), make sure to never lose my temper in ANY way shape or form (cant be labeled the angry black man) and even outside of work it affects how I act.

It's tiring and you deserve props for posting this imo. (so does OP)

Whistling Vivaldi
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Whistling-Vivaldi-How-Stereotypes-Affect-Us-and-What-We-Can-Do/15182722

Read this. This is the basic premise for the book. A black guy whistling Vivaldi on the street to seem less threatening.
 
Good post. I think a lot of this is prominent in liberal academia in terms of the "what's best for you" tone. I think some of it comes from good intentions but it is still awkward and sometimes insulting. It's worth noting this isn't race specific, it's a staple of academic liberalism on a variety of social issues.

In terms of emotional prejudice, sure. Everyone is guilty of it to some degree. But I think the #duality of supporting civil rights (be they black rights, gay rights, womens rights, whatever) while not wanting to "deal" with those people is very interesting and quite prominent.
 
Dat fantastic op.

So good.

On topic, I'll admit I've been emotionally racist before. I've had thoughts that backed up ugly stereotypes and prejudice.

I think we all have those unfortunate intrusive thoughts.

As uncomfortable as those thoughts make me, I can't imagine being on actual receiving end of some actions and words that sometimes follow those thoughts.
 

APF

Member
There's still a lot of segregation in the US, so even if one holds an intellectual position viv racism they're still subject to unfamiliarity and cultural dissonance around people who are different from themselves and who do not share their upbringing. This is different than the reverse in that white voices dominate the overall culture (social/economic/political) and are held as the cultural norm even in non-representative communities and neighborhoods.
 
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