Thanks, it's never easy to self-improve. But the moment I heard myself say "I'm not racist, but..." I realized that I was essentially parroting conservative talking points I've heard over the years. There is something to be said for criticizing someone's culture. Not all cultures are created equal and it's nonsensical to pretend they are all great. But there is a leap in logic from talking vaguely about broad culture norms and then suggesting that an individual of a certain ethnicity is behaving or will behave a certain way because of that culture. It implies that any Latino is as representative of the culture as any other Latino. That is where it is inherently racist unless you actually know the person deeply enough to speculate on how their upbringing affected them. For example, there have been observations that anti-gay attitudes are more prevalent in "black"/urban/ghetto cultures. That observation may be well founded, but to extrapolate that to an individual's attitudes would be a step too far. If I knew this person well enough to hear his opinions and history, then I might be able to make a statement about how I perceive his bias was influenced by his culture. The problem comes when you treat a person of any given demographic as representative of the entire group. This is wrongheaded in multiple ways.
First, cultures are not well enough defined to use this way. It may be unfounded for me to equate the black communities of Compton with those of LA. They may both be predominantly black, but that's the facet I'm trying to make a statement about, so it can't be the only feature we rely upon to group these cultures. It's racist to treat any community as representative of the entire culture because there are more factors at play than just their skin and may be local.
Second, I think that "race" or ethnicity may exist only as a societal construct. But so is currency and it has real world effects. Using these handles as catch-all terms is fine, but making precise statements about groups of people is impossible. Without genetics, each persons bias is used to categorize other people. Some people look white, but they are actually Jewish, Armenian, Latino, ect. Also, some people self identify as one race or the other when they are mixed. And we are almost all mixed anyways. So making statements based upon such flimsy terms is foolish.
Lastly I think that demonizing a "bad" culture is actually counterproductive. When people talk about thug-culture, they don't just mean criminals. They mean predominantly black, drug centric, poor people. This culture was created by the slums created by serger gated housing, drug war, and police policy. These people were born into a world that you probably can't understand unless you did too. Taking a broad brush approach to stamping their culture out only empowers it. If you unequally arrest people wearing baggy pants and backwards caps, you are only galvanizing communities against the police and glorifying "thug-life". Plus, you might make a criminal out of someone that was just minding their own business. Police harassment is a major problem in black communities and this leads to increased negativity towards police. The same could be said for stereotyping "Muslim culture". I used to agree with Sam Harris about how Islam was the most evil of all religions and should be eradicated with predjudice. But the number of violent extremist Muslims are really low compared to the vast majority of them. And their opinions on scripture are as varied as Christians. I would bet that the American "Christian" perspective influenced our bad decisions with Iraq and Afghanistan. These could have potentially been avoided by a more nuanced view. And when Muslims are demonized as terrorists, you invoke more extremism. But how do you change a very negative culture without using force or demonizing? Education, without education, people will repeat the stereotypes their parents instill in them.
Often, it's not simply thisit's even worse. Many minorities are criticized by their own family members and peers for not conforming to the culture, and you're seen as some sort of traitor or outsider if you deviate. Growing up, I can tell you that I was often teased by my Hispanic family members for listening to punk and ska music instead of merengue, bachata, or rap. I was picked on for how I styled my hair, how I dressed, and how I spoke. Apparently, I spoke too "white" and listened to "crazy white boy music." I was "corny" because I wasn't heavily into what they had adopted as their culture. I wasn't "Hispanic enough." It's really unfortunate that this happens and it certainly causes a lot of internal conflict. You want peopleespecially the ones who love youto accept your differences instead of seeing it as an aberration.
This is a good OP and good thread. As a black man living and working in NYC (Brooklyn specifically) one thing I can add to this discussion is I feel part of the reason emotional racism exist among white liberals is because they are still segregated from people of color. In NYC white people for the most part pretty much live away from PoCs and attend different schools. I can imagine this being the same all over the country. How can you unlearn such biased if you get to stay in your own bubble? Maybe the fact that racists biases exist among black people towards black people probably proved me wrong idk
This is a good OP and good thread. As a black man living and working in NYC (Brooklyn specifically) one thing I can add to this discussion is I feel part of the reason emotional racism exist among white liberals is because they are still segregated from people of color. In NYC white people for the most part pretty much live away from PoCs and attend different schools. I can imagine this being the same all over the country. How can you unlearn such biased if you get to stay in your own bubble? Maybe the fact that racists biases exist among black people towards black people probably proved me wrong idk
The response of fearing or avoiding things not familiar or different to ourselves is hard coded into our DNA it would seem, most likely a function of survival from the time before civilization when humans had to fear everything, including offshoots of our own evolutionary tree.
Today we are at the point where we are starting to honestly consider and debate it on many levels. It makes my brain hurt sometimes thinking about it as it's easy to overthink it. The truth is I think, it will not truly be addressed or improved until we have ethnically interbred to the point where we are culturally and physically similar on a mass scale, in the future where we are citizens of the Earth instead of a distinct nation of preserved cultural heritages.
-Edit: I found myself in the somewhat unique position of growing up in my early life, as white middle class, surrounded by mostly poor black kids, as I attended public schools in a poor section of Southern Louisiana. Most of my best friends and peers were from poor black neighborhoods, and it's there I spent most of my time. Later in life I moved to Jersey, where the opposite became true, and I've seen the situation from both sides. I have lost faith that we are ready to address it in my generation, and I feel the current or next generation will be the turning point on many of these things.
The response of fearing or avoiding things not familiar or different to ourselves is hard coded into our DNA it would seem, most likely a function of survival from the time before civilization when humans had to fear everything, including offshoots of our own evolutionary tree.
Today we are at the point where we are starting to honestly consider and debate it on many levels. It makes my brain hurt sometimes thinking about it as it's easy to overthink it. The truth is I think, it will not truly be addressed or improved until we have ethnically interbred to the point where we are culturally and physically similar on a mass scale, in the future where we are citizens of the Earth instead of a distinct nation of preserved cultural heritages.
-Edit: I found myself in the somewhat unique position of growing up in my early life, as white middle class, surrounded by mostly poor black kids, as I attended public schools in a poor section of Southern Louisiana. Most of my best friends and peers were from poor black neighborhoods, and it's there I spent most of my time. Later in life I moved to Jersey, where the opposite became true, and I've seen the situation from both sides. I have lost faith that we are ready to address it in my generation, and I feel the current or next generation will be the turning point on many of these things.
I don't think it's hopeless. Yeah, humans may be hard wired to be "xenophobic" but It's whether they interact with enough diversity to be familiar with those that look superficially different. It's not unstoppable, it will just be gradual and increase throughout the population over generations. I believe we will live to see that day, but I believe in transhumanism (unrelated). These divides are not just genetic though, some of this falls on culture and I think more education would go a long way towards making the demonization of the "other" fade significantly.
The response of fearing or avoiding things not familiar or different to ourselves is hard coded into our DNA it would seem, most likely a function of survival from the time before civilization when humans had to fear everything, including offshoots of our own evolutionary tree.
Today we are at the point where we are starting to honestly consider and debate it on many levels. It makes my brain hurt sometimes thinking about it as it's easy to overthink it. The truth is I think, it will not truly be addressed or improved until we have ethnically interbred to the point where we are culturally and physically similar on a mass scale, in the future where we are citizens of the Earth instead of a distinct nation of preserved cultural heritages.
-Edit: I found myself in the somewhat unique position of growing up in my early life, as white middle class, surrounded by mostly poor black kids, as I attended public schools in a poor section of Southern Louisiana. Most of my best friends and peers were from poor black neighborhoods, and it's there I spent most of my time. Later in life I moved to Jersey, where the opposite became true, and I've seen the situation from both sides. I have lost faith that we are ready to address it in my generation, and I feel the current or next generation will be the turning point on many of these things.
Using the terminology in the OP I would clearly describe myself as an emotional racist until about halfway through college when I moved into a house that rented by the room with about a dozen black guys. There was an initial apprehension I felt, in part due to the very real difference in where we came from. Me coming from typical white suburbia, and them from inter city Detroit. So there was some discomfort because I for some reason didn't feel like I could really relate with them. Luckily I got over that quickly as we all bonded over interests in things like video games and music. Also during my time living there is when I really began to consider myself more liberal. Prior to that I was more apolitical, if not a little conservative. But I got on board the Obama hype train and started to pay more attention to politics using a lens I would never have found if not for living with those guys. I still don't really claim any political affiliation, but equality has became a cornerstone of my personal politics, which Democrats in the US are typically more open to better handling.
I don't think I can change these emotional reactions, and because of that, I don't think I need to apologise or feel shame for them. I don't act on them. What more can be done? I wonder, once institutional racism is erased, what more can be done when we hit into a wall that human psychology presents us with? I find it hard to imagine that there will ever be a time when 100% of people won't have a subconscious racist thought towards black people, just like how there's unlikely to be a time when 100% of black people won't subconsciously inwardly scoff when they hear a white person make a comment about race matters.
Like the OP and a lot of people in this thread have mentioned, you can't control your thoughts, but you can control your behavior, and in turn your behavior can help shape your thoughts. Fake it 'til you make it is a real thing, and for those of us struggling with deep rooted biases it's probably one of the biggest self improvement tools in the toolbox, along with being able to set aside defensiveness and listen. Think of it as the next level of the same socialization we had to go through as children, when we had to learn the boundaries by trial and error as we went, and put our immediate selfish impulses aside to accommodate the feelings and needs of others. Eventually those impulses become muted and manageable. The process never ends.
This is a good OP and good thread. As a black man living and working in NYC (Brooklyn specifically) one thing I can add to this discussion is I feel part of the reason emotional racism exist among white liberals is because they are still segregated from people of color. In NYC white people for the most part pretty much live away from PoCs and attend different schools. I can imagine this being the same all over the country. How can you unlearn such biased if you get to stay in your own bubble? Maybe the fact that racists biases exist among black people towards black people probably proved me wrong idk
I've thought for a while now that probably one of the biggest positive steps that white liberals can take when they don't know what to do to help is to change their calculus on where they decide to live. A lot of well meaning white liberals end up following the same entrenched segregationist heuristics on what is a desirable place for their home, and often these heuristics are based on false principles to begin with.
Violent crime has been in decline for a very long time now that we've stopped breathing lead, and most of the violent crime that does happen happens between people who know each other well. So the insistence on the "safest" neighborhoods reduces the options to just segregated well-to-do areas with very little practical difference in safety from far more diverse places. And most of the time the aura of danger those places are commonly believed to have is the result of exaggerations by racists who've never been to them in the first place.
Likewise, studies have demonstrated that school choice has far less to do with educational outcomes than parent involvement. In spite of this, the obsessive pursuit of the "best" schools ends up again with the same limited selection of lily white high property value neighborhoods.
Diversity in our living situations needs to become a stronger personal priority. No minorities in a neighborhood needs to become as big a dealbreaker as a terrible school. If we want our kids to have less of these internalized racist attitudes than we do, we need to ensure they have a broader cultural experience to begin with. It's a vital part of their education, as well as our own.
Oh, and like everyone else here, I'd just like to say this is a fantastic thread. I'd love to see more spaces like this where people can deconstruct their struggles with prejudice and get good feedback on how to keep improving on their mistakes. Perhaps an "Internalized -ism/-phobia Tech Support OT"?
The reality, OP, is that humans are fundamentally racist.
Humans hate the different. It's not news.
Humans also fundamentally go with the culture they're raised in.
Not being racist is being aware of our terrible instincts, and controlling them as best we could.
Having to doublecheck your thoughts and belief because they may be racist is a necessity of modern times.
The worst part is that, sometimes, said racist beliefs are correct: Not because <race> is fundamentally <insult>, but because different cultural forces have, in fact, changed the behavior of entire countries: Skin color is a decent predictor of culture, which is in and out of itself, a decent predictor of large-statistical behavior in certain fields.
It's there you have to remember that intra-culture variation is orders of magnitude greater than cross-culture variation, and remember that a very marginal statistical advantage to some behaviour (a white-skinned person is more likely to know english, but not by much) isn't worth the disenfranchisement of anyone.
We're not all equal, but acting as if we were makes for a far better world.
It is quite evident that this transfers to our disposition towards other human beings that look and act different to ourselves, as is evident in the consistent xenophobia and racism throughout human history. Our early evolutionary offshoots looked like different human beings.
"Racism is a natural component of human biology" folk need to stop blaming innate human psychology and start blaming their homogenous upbringings that led them to be uncomfortable with different races in the first place.
Great post, I was looking forward to this ever since you mentioned it in PoliGAF.
I find this a fascinating phenomenon to observe in myself. I grew up in a 99% white community, went to a majority-white but more diverse college, then moved to Chicago. I remember distinctly the first time I noticed that I was the only white guy on the L at night.
I grew up with parents who, in hindsight, were somewhat racist (born in the 20s) but who also preached equality and fairness to me. In a sense, they were making me a better person than they were. I aim to do the same with my kids, living in a diverse community and attending public school.
Back to the main point:
I've learned over time to listen to that racist response in myself consciously, and dismiss it. I don't think it does any good to try to act like it's not there, but to acknowledge and then give it no credence I can be a better person.
I also fully understand the comment about wanting equality for all on my terms. I *wish* things like Affirmative Action didn't have to exist, that we could remove present barriers and somehow all things would work out. There's a very neat "everyone is equal, I'm colorblind, all lives matter" notion that isn't all wrong, but in practice ends up just supporting racism (conscious and unconscious).
"Racism is a natural component of human biology" folk need to stop blaming innate human psychology and start blaming their homogenous upbringings that led them to be uncomfortable with different races in the first place.
Both those things can be true, and probably are-- but that absolves nobody of their own behavior. Nobody gets a pass for the human brain's natural desire to sort and categorize and generalize.
"Racism is a natural component of human biology" need to stop blaming innate human psychology and start blaming their homogenous upbringings that led them to be uncomfortable with different races in the first place.
People aren't born racist. It's a mold growth that is fed by natural biases and outside influences. Fox news is more to blame for continued racism in America than any hardwiring of our DNA.
Thank you ever so kindly OP. This type of introspection is one of the reasons I enjoy reading what people have to say on GAF very much.
My boyfriend(white) likes when I hang out with my black friends because I don't laugh the same way for him. I have a much more guffawed and ruckus like laughter when joking with my friends. I don't laugh that way around him because I don't want to be judged as all the things that come with the loud ruckus negro stereotypes. This is despite consciously knowing he loves to hear it. I've just been too conditioned to share that part of myself with him.
Sometimes I think I'm overly emotionally racist because I've let previous conditioning prevent me from being completely honest and intimate with the people I love dearly. Damned if I know what to do about it though. When you're convinced you need these walls to survive it's really hard to let them down.
I think a lot of this comes down to where a person was raised, where they have lived, and where they were schooled. I had mostly black friends until I was a teenager, and still choose to live in areas where the rent is cheaper because they're racially diverse (I.E. despite there not being higher levels of crime, people of my income level tend to see black and hispanic people around and assume it's dangerous so they won't move in, driving down rent). This general attitude creeps into pretty much all public living for many.
But let's be clear, it's not like I'm living in the southside of Chicago. I know full well there are terrible areas that are predominantly this-or-that non-white race. And I wouldn't live there, because I can afford not to. Just like I wouldn't live back in my mostly white hometown where the locals pride themselves on being violent and stupid.
This is true. We can't just blame our DNA for making us be a bit racist and then shrug our shoulders like there's nothing we can do. It's absolutely a product of the people who influence you and the media you consume.
Like I said, people will naturally have an unconscious bias toward those who look and act differently from them. I used to feel uncomfortable around old people because they looked and acted differently from me. The difference is that my environment doesn't subtly influence my views on them with overt or dog-whistle racism.
It's impossible to grow up without racist impulses and thoughts, no matter who you are, and this is especially true in America where race is such a toxic concept with hundreds of years of horror packed into it.
All you can do is try to confront yourself, catch yourself thinking unfair or even hateful things, and vow not to do it next time. It's an impossible task, but it's important to keep at it every single day. The alternative is total complicity in an enduring system of inequity and oppression, so...
Fuck these people. Same for people who have the same attitude about sexism.
I'm "white". Arab, I know that a few generations ago my dad's family were Turkish before they settled in Syria and my mom's side is Syrian for as far back as I know of. I have the same skin tone as any other typical white dude in the USA, I'm just a lot hairier and have black hair instead of blonde/brown. I was born with an Irish last name because my dad legally changed it a few years prior to my birth. Because of that I never had to deal with a lot of the problems my other Arab peers have, like my friend Ahmed who had a pretty rough fucking time in middle school and high school being made fun of and called names, including OF COURSE "Akhmed the Terrorist".
When I was visiting Syria as a kid I remember this one time my cousins pointed out a black guy at the mosque just doing his thing like everyone else, but with shock and awe at the fact that he's black. I went to a pretty diverse school so I didn't really get why they were being so weird about it.
People will be uncomfortable signs strangers that look totally different from what they're familiar with, it sucks, and we need to do something about it as a society. Cultures don't need to be whitewashed, they just need to be made familiar with each other and there needs to be more meaningful interaction. At least, that's what "worked" for me. I don't know how to apply this to society at large though, I just hope someone smarter than me can figure out some plan.
Reading the book racism without racist the author describes 4 central frames which are ways in which white people brush off racism. One of those four frames are the naturalization frame which is described here as:
"Naturalization is the second frame which allows whites to justify/naturalize racial inequality as if it was inevitable/natural. The most common way this frame is utilized in when talking about social segregation as self-segregation. When whites say that people of color segregate themselves, the history of economic disinvestment, redlining and discriminatory and exclusionary real estate practices, and other race-based policies which made it very difficult for people of color to own homes and property where they choose is minimized (Bonilla-Silva 37, 39). Naturalization is also a way in which school segregation is explained as natural, where disproportionate funding to schools in communities of color and disparities caused by the G.W. Bush Administrations No Child Left Behind Act, are justified and de-racialized. Hence, the connection between past and present (historical causality), where people live and how this determines where they can go to school, and the racialized policies which structure these choices are obscurred."
To think that segregation is natural and not the result our conscious actions is foolish.
Perceived differences are the only differences.
Skin color, complexion, features and, why not, gender - are very evident perceived differences.
To, exactly what hateful beliefs you have - that's social construct and cultural influence.
The very concept of preferring those most similar to yourself? Evolutionary influence.
All you can do is try to confront yourself, catch yourself thinking unfair or even hateful things, and vow not to do it next time. It's an impossible task, but it's important to keep at it every single day. The alternative is total complicity in an enduring system of inequity and oppression, so...
Reading the book racism without racist the author describes 4 central frames which are ways in which white people brush off racism. One of those four frames are the naturalization frame which is described here as:
"Naturalization is the second frame which allows whites to justify/naturalize racial inequality as if it was inevitable/natural. The most common way this frame is utilized in when talking about social segregation as self-segregation. When whites say that people of color segregate themselves, the history of economic disinvestment, redlining and discriminatory and exclusionary real estate practices, and other race-based policies which made it very difficult for people of color to own homes and property where they choose is minimized (Bonilla-Silva 37, 39). Naturalization is also a way in which school segregation is explained as natural, where disproportionate funding to schools in communities of color and disparities caused by the G.W. Bush Administrations No Child Left Behind Act, are justified and de-racialized. Hence, the connection between past and present (historical causality), where people live and how this determines where they can go to school, and the racialized policies which structure these choices are obscurred."
To think that segregation is natural and not the result our conscious actions is foolish.
Emotional racism sounds like prejudice to me. Which we all have to varying degrees. It's recognizing that prejudice and working on it that matters. If your natural inclination is to cross the street when you see a POC, walk towards them rather than give in.
Like the OP and a lot of people in this thread have mentioned, you can't control your thoughts, but you can control your behavior, and in turn your behavior can help shape your thoughts. Fake it 'til you make it is a real thing, and for those of us struggling with deep rooted biases it's probably one of the biggest self improvement tools in the toolbox, along with being able to set aside defensiveness and listen. Think of it as the next level of the same socialization we had to go through as children, when we had to learn the boundaries by trial and error as we went, and put our immediate selfish impulses aside to accommodate the feelings and needs of others. Eventually those impulses become muted and manageable. The process never ends.
The problem doesn't arise from a lack of empathy or understanding, or simply based on the aspect that the bias comes from -- the issue arises from the categorisation of strangers. I think it's a natural course: on a basic level, when you see a person, you instantaneously categorise them based on their appearance. Not judging a book by its cover is an intellectual choice, but we all have an emotional opinion of every book cover based on the initial viewing. Yet, despite having a firm grip on my behaviour, my emotional reaction to various archetypes has not significantly changed as you suggest it does, but is maintained based on my likes and dislikes. When I see someone get on the tram with a hood up and walking stiffly (bearing in mind that I hate hoodies), regardless of race, I'll become stoic. I won't say anything to do anything, but I've been told by some (perhaps more extreme ideologues) that merely being slightly more guarded in such a scenario, if they happened to be black, is a microaggression, and that it's some moral failing on my part. The thing is, I know plenty of people who wear hoodies who I get along with great, but it doesn't change my feeling towards strangers wearing them. Yet once I have the briefest brush of an interaction with them, a spoken word, the defensiveness vanishes. In a roundabout way, I'm trying to say that I think the gulf between white liberals' intellectual non-racism and emotional racism is really a symptom of an instinctual distrust of strangers, and the brain simply categorises people by their appearance. Because of that, I don't think that this is a problem solved simply by an increase in diversity -- there will always be strangers, and human nature will always cause that initial emotional response, whether it's based on race, clothing, bionic arms, or any other characteristic. Simply checking our behaviour is the current status quo -- my interpretation of this thread is that we should try and control our instincts, which I consider an oxymoron.
The reality, OP, is that humans are fundamentally racist.
Humans hate the different. It's not news.
Humans also fundamentally go with the culture they're raised in.
Not being racist is being aware of our terrible instincts, and controlling them as best we could.
Having to doublecheck your thoughts and belief because they may be racist is a necessity of modern times.
The worst part is that, sometimes, said racist beliefs are correct: Not because <race> is fundamentally <insult>, but because different cultural forces have, in fact, changed the behavior of entire countries: Skin color is a decent predictor of culture, which is in and out of itself, a decent predictor of large-statistical behavior in certain fields.
It's there you have to remember that intra-culture variation is orders of magnitude greater than cross-culture variation, and remember that a very marginal statistical advantage to some behaviour (a white-skinned person is more likely to know english, but not by much) isn't worth the disenfranchisement of anyone.
We're not all equal, but acting as if we were makes for a far better world.
I disagree with your perspective. I would say most humans are xenophobic, instead of racist. Xenophobia is only racism when you perceive people of different races as "other". This only happens when people are raised in predominantly racially segregated communities. This is still the norm today and so most xenophobia takes the form of racism. But racism, like race, is a societal construct. There is next to no genetic baseline for race as anything other than a convenient rule of thumb. Without a racist culture, surrounded by a sufficiently diverse community, I think racism would be next to nonexistent. (Not factoring in religion here) xenophobia would still be alive and well, but it would be mostly seen in linguistic/religious/dietary/family differences.
Also, I don't agree that racist stereotypes can be correct. This does not mean that they are always incorrect observations. Rather, that they are inherently not based in reason. For example, one may see a black person and assume he listens to rap because he is black. Then the guy flips on his woofer and blasts Wiz Khalifa. That was a correct observation, but for the wrong reason. He isn't listening to it because he is black. He is listening to it because he likes it, and was probably raised to have a predeliction towards certain types of music. It just so happens that this culture he was raised in has a predominantly black population. So being right for the wrong reasons is being wrong. These heuristics are nothing more than that, and they could be as wrong as any other unfounded observation. Like if I think my wife is cheating on me because I find men's shave gel left in the shower. Then I find out her dad came over for the weekend while I was out of town, but he tells me she did sleep with the neighbor the next day at his house. I'm right that my wife was cheating, but my reasons were incorrect. Therefore I was wrong.
Lastly, I dont know how you can say that intra-cultural variation is greater than Inter-cultural variation and then say that we are not all fundamentally equal. Genetically and physiologically, humans are virtually identical. The only real differences are with like sun exposure, hair care, and some rare diseases (sickle cell). People are people, equally. And even if they weren't "biologically equal", they are under the law. Which isn't an act.
The problem doesn't arise from a lack of empathy or understanding, or simply based on the aspect that the bias comes from -- the issue arises from the categorisation of strangers. I think it's a natural course: on a basic level, when you see a person, you instantaneously categorise them based on their appearance. Not judging a book by its cover is an intellectual choice, but we all have an emotional opinion of every book cover based on the initial viewing. Yet, despite having a firm grip on my behaviour, my emotional reaction to various archetypes has not significantly changed as you suggest it does, but is maintained based on my likes and dislikes. When I see someone get on the tram with a hood up and walking stiffly (bearing in mind that I hate hoodies), regardless of race, I'll become stoic. I won't say anything to do anything, but I've been told by some (perhaps more extreme ideologues) that merely being slightly more guarded in such a scenario, if they happened to be black, is a microaggression, and that it's some moral failing on my part. The thing is, I know plenty of people who wear hoodies who I get along with great, but it doesn't change my feeling towards strangers wearing them. Yet once I have the briefest brush of an interaction with them, a spoken word, the defensiveness vanishes. In a roundabout way, I'm trying to say that I think the gulf between white liberals' intellectual non-racism and emotional racism is really a symptom of an instinctual distrust of strangers, and the brain simply categorises people by their appearance. Because of that, I don't think that this is a problem solved simply by an increase in diversity -- there will always be strangers, and human nature will always cause that initial emotional response, whether it's based on race, clothing, bionic arms, or any other characteristic. Simply checking our behaviour is the current status quo -- my interpretation of this thread is that we should try and control our instincts, which I consider an oxymoron.
We really have to get beyond this narrative of "instinctual" diet racism (or emotional racism, if you prefer). It's not instinctual. You're ancestors didn't get stoic when someone got on the tram with a hoodie because your ancestors didn't have trams or hoodies.
You stiffen up because of previous influences in your life.
And yea, it is a microaggression. They're called micro because they're small slights but they add up over a day and a lifetime, each slight adding its weight to the pile. You know that there's no reason to get worked up over a hoodie getting on the tram, you've admitted it yourself, so instead of humanizing them after talking to them why not attempt to humanize them right then and there?
That hoodie dude has got his own internal monologue and his own bias and feelings that probably don't concern you one bit, but are surprisingly similar to yours. You obviously know this, so I'm wondering why you need actual interaction before you realize their humanity. Like, Fenderputty's example above. Don't just force yourself to keep walking, force yourself to remember that everyone is just people, and generally good people. They are concepts or archetypes brought to life by your mind, they're complete humans.
Edit:
I didn't mean that to sound so aggressive, I want to make sure you know I'm not calling you diet racist at all, just that I like to use that term to describe actions most white liberals take in the course of a lifetime. (More Edits) I just feel like it's best to call a spade a spade instead of sugar coating it. I think part of the problem when it comes to race discussion is our tendency to reject or lessen the impact of our actions.
There is a natural reaction of either apprehension or fascination towards the unfamiliar with all cognizant beings, not just humans. It's human socialization / cultural acclimation that transforms this impulse into ideas about the unfamiliar. To say racism is natural is to suggest that the ideas we form about others / outsiders are not inherently shaped by society and culture, or that society and culture are themselves "natural" and not manufactured.
to start, i'm white. a few weeks ago i was outside taking the garbage out. it was night, and dark, and i live in an apartment complex. i heard a voice call from behind me "excuse me, sir?" and i immediately determined it to be from a black male. i ignored him. i don't know why i made that immediate decision, but the feeling thereafter was because i didn't want to deal with whatever he was about to ask me (which, i assumed was either money or help with something i didn't want to do). i started moving back toward my apartment under the justification "maybe he's talking to someone else". but he asked me again, louder "hey man, excuse me?"
i turned around because it was clear he was addressing me and nobody else so for me to continue ignoring him would've been too obviously rude. he was young, mid-20s, and walking toward me, and black. i said "yeah what's up man?"
"hey do you know where building 1 is? i'm trying to find my buddy's place."
i gave him the directions and he thanked me.
since then, that encounter has continually come up in my mind. it really bothers me that i ignored him for what are undeniably racist reasons (black guy at night). it bothers me that he went on with his night, and may not have been aware that i was having racist thoughts toward him in that moment. it bothers me that i'm not sure how i can change this about myself.
i'm not sure why i'm sharing this, but i am totally the kind of "white liberal" described in this thread.
You are admitting that you still have to work to dissolve racist attitudes in yourself, that isn't the type of "post racist" white liberal that OP is talking about.
I've been trying to assist the city I live in, however possible. One of the exercises was to go downtown and speak with five not-so-random people, and poll them on five. Not everyone was willing to speak with me (understandable). I was directed to speak with small business owners, homeless, someone of a different ethnicity than myself etc.
The pivotal question we were tasked with asking was "What is our city in need of those most?"
I believe the reason this question stuck with me the most was because the answers weren't at all what I was expecting. My preconceived notions were pretty far off-base. At the same time, I came away humbled by common threads of hope & compassion exhibited--unanimously--by everyone I spoke with.
Accompanied by your post, this has led to uncomfortable introspection on my personal emotional racism. I do not consider myself racist, but do my actions represent the opposite? I love my parents dearly. My dad's parents were incredibly racist. I remember him talking to us about how he was whipped when his dad found him playing with black friend. He genuinely sought to eradicate that upbringing as he matured, and to instill better within us, his kids. However, he lived with his parents for 18 years, and that's not a mindset you can alter overnight. Further, it's not a mindset you can eliminate in a generation alone. To bring this full circle, my kids are incredibly intelligent (as any parent will proudly admit.) What actions on my part are imparting subtle, emotionally racist examples to my children? This is something we will have to continue to uncomfortably discuss as a family. I hope to live by my dads example in further moving to eliminate racism altogether.
Thanks for your post OP. I greatly dislike discussing this subject, and take courage from others confronting it.
I feel like I came off as a bit self congratulatory earlier and wanna actually talk about what I meant. I still have trouble with bias but I've been consciously thinking about it. It's uncomfortable to think about but it's important to know how to better treat people.
Anyways, when I was more embedded in that type of community there were a few things that were really apparent about this but were just ignored. The programs and social areas a well off white liberal would be in were associated with a sense of superiority and were mostly white. When I think back to those programs it was mostly white and wealthy, and a common running ground between black kids I saw was they tended to be middle class and up exclusively. It was often a case of "the good ones" were the ones in those programs with you, the bad ones weren't. Racism was bad anybody would tell you, but assumptions about race were embedded in that view. Unless they walked and talked like you, they were bad.
A lot of things like "of course I'm not racist, but if you come up to me talking ghetto I'm gonna be uncomfortable" were the norm. That was pretty accepted type of stuff, and "ghetto" was defined by parts of culture we didn't know but were clearly defined by racial stereotypes.
I became aware of it when I noticed those uncomfortable undertones directed towards people in communities I knew, and realizing you make comments similar without knowing is harsh. It became a problem when you questioned it though. "How dare you call me racist." Wagons circled, angry feelings and yelling, etc. Then you get "lumped in" with the "angry and violent activist" crowd that really is just discomfort with that confrontation.
I made a comment that was called racially insensitive on this forum early this year. My first response was "why would you call me racist" and it was pretty emotional. After realizing how things went afterwards I was ashamed, still am. It's hard to unlearn and it's super easy to just start go to the types of people who will support you and say you were right. Regardless taking that shame abd understanding I was insensitive is helpful, but nobody had communicated it was okay to be ashamed over race and to think on it. You were either racist bigot or champion of change.
Anyways hope that was insightful in some way. OP is good to get you thinking.
marrec, there really is a tendency to classify people by appearances and differences. It's not racism, but it's one of the bases for racism, and it's definitely wired into our brains. And it's pretty clearly an evolutionarly developed asset.
I'll give a non-race related example, based on observing myself. Say somebody cuts me off in traffic. I *immediately* classify and generalize based on superficial factors. If it's a nice car, I mentally pull out the "rich people are assholes" card. If it's a beater, the reflexive classism goes the other way. Or whatever bumper stickers are on the car. Metalhead? Those assholes. Bernie sticker? Upper-class liberal jerk in a self-important bubble. Out-of-state plate? Clueless tourist. It's amazing how much shit you make up about people all the time.
Do I think these things about all these groups all the time? No. But as soon as I have even a minor case of a perceived slight (being cut off) they all come out. And they are also backwards from the slight. The slight happens, and *then* my mind makes up ways that this person is different. It's truly remarkable wiring, and we all have it.
All that said, it's useful to understanding but it's not an excuse. But dismissing it outright actually sets the conversation back, IMHO. Yes, there are going to be people who try to use it as an excuse. But presuming that you live in the US and are human, a) you have all the historical raw material for a library of racial stereotypes to apply and b) the wiring to incline you to do so.
It's your responsibility to recognize when you are doing it, and stop. But you will do it. As pointed out by somebody else, even minorities will have unconsciously lower opinions of members of their own minority.
There are a lot of differences between people, but we only latch on to a few of them in order to intuit ideas about who that person might be. The reason why those differences and not others, is not "natural."
I disagree with your perspective. I would say most humans are xenophobic, instead of racist. Xenophobia is only racism when you perceive people of different races as "other". This only happens when people are raised in predominantly racially segregated communities. This is still the norm today and so most xenophobia takes the form of racism. But racism, like race, is a societal construct. There is next to no genetic baseline for race as anything other than a convenient rule of thumb. Without a racist culture, surrounded by a sufficiently diverse community, I think racism would be next to nonexistent. (Not factoring in religion here) xenophobia would still be alive and well, but it would be mostly seen in linguistic/religious/dietary/family differences.
Xenophobic and racist are very, very closely related concepts.
Humans, as tribal animals, inherently get into 'us vs them' lines of thinking.
Whatever those are racist is your guess - since racism is a subtype of 'hate for not-my-group'. There are infinite ways where we fall in line along divides which are fundamentally pointless - language, place of birth, skin color, chosen field of study, chosen field of work, income bracket, attending school, sports team.. the behavior humans have to create a fictitious 'us' and a fictitious 'them', and to inherently prefer, unreasonably, 'us' against 'them' is a very hard thing to hard against.
Most of those are societal constructs: Constructs which happen again, and again, and again, and again. It's not a coincidence every single 'big' society in recorded history was partly or fully xenophobic.
Also, I don't agree that racist stereotypes can be correct. This does not mean that they are always incorrect observations. Rather, that they are inherently not based in reason. For example, one may see a black person and assume he listens to rap because he is black. Then the guy flips on his woofer and blasts Wiz Khalifa. That was a correct observation, but for the wrong reason. He isn't listening to it because he is black. He is listening to it because he likes it, and was probably raised to have a predeliction towards certain types of music. It just so happens that this culture he was raised in has a predominantly black population. So being right for the wrong reasons is being wrong. These heuristics are nothing more than that, and they could be as wrong as any other unfounded observation. Like if I think my wife is cheating on me because I find men's shave gel left in the shower. Then I find out her dad came over for the weekend while I was out of town, but he tells me she did sleep with the neighbor the next day at his house. I'm right that my wife was cheating, but my reasons were incorrect. Therefore I was wrong.
Stereotypes can be correct, statistically: A white-skinned person in the USA is more likely to be rich.
Full-blown stereotyping, eg. all whites are rich is incorrect, but at the statistical level - and, to take the example made in the OP: "Going to the white-skinned bank teller because he's more likely to know english well" - that is true. and i don't see how denying it helps anyone.
Catching that line of thinking means considering the full implications of your actions on society at large, and valuing those over personal statistical advantages.
When you walk to a white person instead of a hispanic because you assume it's more likely the white person knows English, you're not inherently wrong - yet you're damaging society as a whole.
Denying such things is to join the "Post-Racial America" bandwagons - Problems exist, for various sub communities, which should be acknowledged and solved rather than glossed over.
Lastly, I dont know how you can say that intra-cultural variation is greater than Inter-cultural variation and then say that we are not all fundamentally equal. Genetically and physiologically, humans are virtually identical. The only real differences are with like sun exposure, hair care, and some rare diseases (sickle cell). People are people, equally. And even if they weren't "biologically equal", they are under the law. Which isn't an act.
'Equal' means a great many things.
For instance, using the same example to keep confusion to a modicum, skin color is a predictor of a great deal many things in the USA - Income level, for example, which we then largely consider (rightfully) as a predictor of quality of education received, which is then a predictor of job quality.
Following that line of four correct predictions,
which i purely used for example and will be more than happy to be proven wrong on any of them
, by chaining them, you'd assume skin color is a predictor of work quality,
in this particular case, an effect so minor likely unrecognizable from statistical noise, but i've ran no particular analysis.
This is a statistically sound conclusion: However, acting on said conclusion means perpetuating the very cause of the first element of the chain, "skin color is a predictor of income".
This, along with the fact that far more elements contribute to work quality than the chain of predictors shown above, makes the acting on that tiny statistical element while reviewing resumes a net negative for society at large.
But that doesn't mean that, statistically, the advantage for being white doesn't exist. It just means that if we want a better society, we should act as if it didn't - or better yet, as it was a negative - to compensate and eliminate said advantage as soon as possible.
There are a lot of differences between people, but we only latch on to a few of them in order to intuit ideas about who that person might be. The reason why those differences and not others, is not "natural."
Noticing the difference and generalizing or assuming is automatic. Leaning into that, or deciding that that's OK or "the truth" is not.
"Natural" is used by some people as an excuse, and there's lots of "natural" things that if we accepted or acted on, we'd be in jail. The process of being civilized is deciding what "natural" things we do and what we suppress.
Is it normal to get really angry when someone insists you're being racist?
I know it isn't always a conscious decision and I should be more concerned that I could be saying prejudiced words rather than the accusation itself, but I got so defensive about it when somebody insisted I was.
marrec, there really is a tendency to classify people by appearances and differences. It's not racism, but it's one of the bases for racism, and it's definitely wired into our brains. And it's pretty clearly an evolutionarly developed asset.
I'll give a non-race related example, based on observing myself. Say somebody cuts me off in traffic. I *immediately* classify and generalize based on superficial factors. If it's a nice car, I mentally pull out the "rich people are assholes" card. If it's a beater, the reflexive classism goes the other way. Or whatever bumper stickers are on the car. Metalhead? Those assholes. Bernie sticker? Upper-class liberal jerk in a self-important bubble. Out-of-state plate? Clueless tourist. It's amazing how much shit you make up about people all the time.
Do I think these things about all these groups all the time? No. But as soon as I have even a minor case of a perceived slight (being cut off) they all come out. And they are also backwards from the slight. The slight happens, and *then* my mind makes up ways that this person is different. It's truly remarkable wiring, and we all have it.
All that said, it's useful to understanding but it's not an excuse. But dismissing it outright actually sets the conversation back, IMHO. Yes, there are going to be people who try to use it as an excuse. But presuming that you live in the US and are human, a) you have all the historical raw material for a library of racial stereotypes to apply and b) the wiring to incline you to do so.
It's your responsibility to recognize when you are doing it, and stop. But you will do it. As pointed out by somebody else, even minorities will have unconsciously lower opinions of members of their own minority.
I think we mostly agree here. Like I said, when I was younger I felt uncomfortable around older people, but I didn't ascribe to them any kind of negative stereotypes beyond blue hair and mothballs. We can't do much about the feeling of "other" and how our brain reacts to it, we can try to do something about the overt biases and racism that our culture has tried desperately to attach to them in regards to black people.
Also for OP, just being aware of your privilege as a white male (as race and gender) is the best first step. Then if you know you have and you see it happening at the expense of other minorities on a personal level, you can now step in and correct it (be it yourself or the situation)
But never be ashamed of it, you got lucky to be born white (or seen as white) in American society. As a black person, I can't be mad at every white person for being white in a situation that benefits them. I would lose my mind. I have to be aware of my surroundings, but I'm not at my wits end.
What I find particularly problematic is I recognize myself falling into this emotional racism trap, probably because yeah, I grew up interacting with very few black people, and whenever I try and discuss it with my white family or friends when I think it's led me to do something wrong or just left me feeling uncomfortable with my reactions, they go out of their way to absolve or justify my behavior. And I'm sure that's how it typically goes. How do you get through to people who are having their prejudices (conscious or unconscious) constantly dismissed or minimized like that?
I don't buy the instinctual thing at all. It's instinctual to be cautious around something you don't trust or that you think might be dirty or diseased or something. What that is is usually something you're unfamiliar with. Other humans do not fall into that category by default, just sadly in regular practice. This is a societal failure that goes back 400 years in the new world, only exacerbated by white flight in the middle of last century.
Not to derail, but I think this subject is applicable to disabled people as well. I see all the time folks who aren't sure how to deal with people with mental or physical disabilities often approach with undue caution or simply try to pretend the person is "normal" because they don't want to offend them. It's similar to the colorblind issue in that you think you're erring on the side of fairness and decency, but the reality is there's a fine line between that and actually just avoiding confrontation because being mindful of certain realities takes you out of your privileged comfort zone.
There's a world of difference I think between being polite and respectful and not letting something about a person be a distraction, and pretending those things don't exist because it's not convenient for your worldview.
Of course, sometimes trying too hard is a recipe for disaster as well.
So the upper middle class white male is presented with a variety of options:
Draw attention to how someone is different from you because it distracts you. Be a dick. Fail.
Ignore something inconvenient about a person and proceed normally. Things go smoothly. You learn jack shit about the world, but that doesn't affect you personally, so why care? The job gets done. Pass
Make an ignorant joke to defuse tension. Person laughs politely, because they don't want to get fired complaining about the white guy who has been here 10 years to HR. You think that means everything went smoothly, so you'll do it again next time you're in that situation. The job gets done. Pass
Proceed normally, be receptive to cues from this person if they may be uncomfortable too. Things go smoothly. This person becomes more comfortable around you, and in the future you discuss personal differences and preferences like normal human beings. Job gets done. Pass
Proceed normally, but casually drop hints to let this person know you're on their side. Act like you know what it's like to be someone you're not, because you saw something on TV and your best friend in high school's Mom was someone like them. Person laughs politely, but curiously never talks to you again. You still think that means everything went smoothly, so you'll do it again next time you're in that situation. The job gets done. Pass
You see, there are a variety of approaches to communicating with strangers, many of which have similar perceived results if you're a person who thinks the world is hunky dory because it was largely designed to accommodate you, but what's actually going on involves actually trying to not assume you know what it's like to be someone else, that your way of life is both default and most desirable, and just fucking listen.
What I find particularly problematic is I recognize myself falling into this emotional racism trap, probably because yeah, I grew up interacting with very few black people, and whenever I try and discuss it with my white family or friends when I think it's led me to do something wrong or just left me feeling uncomfortable with my reactions, they go out of their way to absolve or justify my behavior. And I'm sure that's how it typically goes.
I've had that same reaction from other people about privilege. As soon as I mention it, they tell me how I worked to get what I have (even people who don't know me). Even if I did, it doesn't mean that it wasn't easier, or that I "deserve" the result.
I feel like it just depends on your experiences growing up. I'm probably the whitest guy, and the better part of my childhood was in an apartment complex with very few white families, so all the kids around me were black and hispanic. Best friend was black, and I had been both to a barber sharp and the blackest area of the city by the time I was six. Best friends growing up were black, Mexican, and Puerto Rican. Being exposed to different people and cultures at a young age gave a different perspective than your average white liberal who grew up in the suburbs but wants to be intellectually 'correct' on the topic.
That said, even with those experiences it doesn't exempt me from racism. First time I ever went to a black strip club with my gf, I was pretty damn nervous on the way in. All that happened was a couple guys said, "damn, good job" and that was about it.
To me "emotional racism" or "subtle racism" is something that's almost uncontrollable by people who do it, because it's a nearly unconscious reaction from someone who has no involvement with or no ability to empathize with someone outside of their bubble.
Is it normal to get really angry when someone insists you're being racist?
I know it isn't always a conscious decision and I should be more concerned that I could be saying prejudiced words rather than the accusation itself, but I got so defensive about it when somebody insisted I was.
Well, being labeled a racist in modern American society is basically a permanent blemish on your public reputation, so it's understandable to get angry and defensive. After all, nobody wants to be the bad guy.
And this situation is really difficult to address. On one hand, we shouldn't make being racist acceptable, but on the other hand, simply discarding someone forever because of a remark or opinion isn't productive for society. We have countless studies that show that negative reinforcement doesn't work as well as positive encouragement, but it's a difficult idea to advocate for because, while we're giving a racist remark all of this even-handed discussion and empathy, there is a very real victim of that remark who we're ignoring.
If I had to choose a side, I'd lean towards empathy for all, while also being stern and serious about the effects of emotional racism. I've often found that, even if you're telling someone that what they've done is bad, coming at it from a place of understanding and respect often garners the best results. And if something we say can convert someone's feelings from one of tension and micro-aggression into one of understanding and a desire to connect, I believe that has a much better macro effect on society.
This isn't always clear, and I'll be the first to admit that I've said and done things in the heat of the moment that are the exact opposite of this (I've totally written people off for remarks they've made), and I'd feel sick if I validated someone's hateful remarks by treating it as, "just the other side of the argument." But if there's any way to bring that person closer to treating others as equals, isn't it worth it? I hope so.
I also just want to say that I REALLY appreciate everyone's discussion in this thread. I've learned so much from what you guys have shared. It's really put a huge smile on my face.
Emotional racism is trickier, though. Emotional racism is being a little uncomfortable in a room full of black guys because you feel outnumbered. Emotional racism is walking up to the white teller at the bank instead of the Latino one because you think it’s more likely they’ll speak English. Emotional racism is the monolith built by these tiny, seemingly invisible moments of racial tension. And herein lies the issue
I don't understand how that is considered "emotional racism" by any stretch. Subjective obviously, but you are using a unit of measure to reach a conclusion there.
I like your topic, but it's such a huge sociological issue. I personally feel everyone is entitled to their "unpopular" opinion, and obviously we all have moments were even in anger we say things purposely to attack our target of aggression. Physical attributes and corporeal elements are the easiest things to pick at. Just try and be a good person with a moral compass. Strive to make improvements every day.
I think Althusser best explains the notion of identity, when people are hailed to fulfill these societal roles that set in place for them. If you are "black" (construct) and male, you should act a certain way, and like certain things. It's such a load of horse manure to me, that based on your appearance, you are conditioned and rewarded for assimilating to a specific identity.
I don't understand how that is considered "emotional racism" by any stretch. Subjective obviously, but you are using a unit of measure to reach a conclusion there.
It's awkwardly phrased, but what I was getting at was just listing off another scenario in which you'd be more comfortable with someone of your own race being of an "otherness" factor in a minority, and how even a small moment like that can lead to tension and a perceived division between people if it's repeated over and over.
I agree with what you said about it being bullshit that we're called in to fill these pre-decided roles just based on our background, ethnicity, gender, etc.
