cartman414
Member
Except you don't always get as much character customization, or reliance on tactics when faced with more powerful mobs/bosses.
Plus, the grind part is a little subjective, as Pokemon continues to be popular in spite of that.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Why are Dungeon RPGs (EO, Wizardry) not very popular? How can it be evolved?
- Thread starter ULTROS!
- Start date
Except you don't always get as much character customization, or reliance on tactics when faced with more powerful mobs/bosses.
Plus, the grind part is a little subjective, as Pokemon continues to be popular in spite of that.
Nah the whole combat system with the 3d movement is slow and pointless. Having enemies move freely around the environment added absolutely nothing to the wizardry combat formula and just made everything tedious. Even with the Wizfast mod at full speed combat takes 10x longer then it does in any of the prior entries.
Legend of Grimrock 1 & 2 are some of my favorite games of all time. Funnily enough they're the only type of games like this I've been into. I really enjoyed the puzzle aspect the most. Felt kinda like Myst. The combat wasnt really great but the puzzles were very good and kept me intrigued. If anyone has suggestions to other types of more puzzle driven Dungeon crawlers I'd definitely be interested.
Combat also takes more time in DQ8 than it did in DQ7. What you're encountering is that as games increase in fidelity the shortcuts that designers used no longer are applicable. Your qualm is just as much with the absurdly high encounter rate. The padding of the older games (constant enemy encounters) is now more of a burden due to animations and the delays they add so games would need to have fewer less trash encounters.
autoduelist
Member
You're sort of mashing together different genres, there, though. If someone asks for a dRPG, they mean they want a grid based blobber. 'Dungeon crawler' casts a slightly wider net.
I do agree first person isn't a requirement, and there are some odd hybrids... Brandish, for example, plays mostly like a top down Legend of Grimrock. [grid based, enemies move on their own timer, etc] although it's not a particularly deep 'dRPG' due to simplified combat/lewt.
I didn't think SoSC had much grinding at all. Certainly not to 'advance minor plot points'. And 'grinding' has little to do with rpg genre, and everything to do with game balance. A standard jrpg can require 'grinding', it's not something unique to, or even particularly common in, dRPGs. I don't even know what you mean by 'tangible interaction' means in this case.
Many games have difficult bosses serving as walls. Well done, they are meant to ensure the player has mastered certain game/combat principles - for example, elemental weaknesses. However, there are always going to be some subset of players who don't get that they're supposed to be exploiting those weaknesses, and just grind 10 levels to beat the boss in a more basic manner and then complain about grinding. This is always a difficultly for game designers... a well designed boss will always have some 'grinders'. It's one of the reasons I loved Matador - if a player refused to adapt to press turn, they'd be grinding a very long time.
Most older dRPGs have a lot of puzzles. Quite a bit of that was lost to time, for several reasons. For one, supposed QoL improvements like automapping really hurt map maker ability to create spacial puzzles with teleport and spin traps. Things like 'wall riddles' aren't as common either, my guess is because nowadays most people just google them rather than solve them, making it take more time to dev right than it's worth. LoG does have some puzzles, generally the kind common to real time drpgs [pressure panels, timers]- but to find other greats you're going to need to play much older ones like Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder. I think there's supposed to be another good real time dRPG that either just came out or is coming out soon, but I'm blanking on the name.
Wizardry is well known for it's difficult dungeons, although I'm thinking you want more atmospheric 'puzzles' than death traps.
The dungeon crawlers with my favorite art styles are probably the Shin Megami Tensei games and the Japanese versions of the Wizardry games.
This is actually a really good point. If you go back far enough, dungeon crawlers are the original root of A LOT of what we are playing today. A bunch of currently famous FPSs and action RPGs are basically descended from dungeon crawlers.
That brings me to the point I wanted to make: I think old-style DRPGs are just antiquated to a lot of people, particularly in the west. All the different elements of DRPGs evolved into different kinds of games over the decades.
Their first-person 3D worlds is what partially inspired first person shooters in the first place. Exploring complex layouts and grabbing loot eventually evolved into action RPGs like Diablo. You could say those two paths basically converged to create Destiny, which is kind of a modern dungeon crawler. Dark Souls is another distant descendant of the complex 3D worlds and layouts of dungeon crawlers. When designers tried to make dungeons feel like living, breathing worlds you ended up with Ultima Underworld which down the line lead to BioShock, Deus Ex, Dishonored, and Skyrim.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Ehh, I'd take Wiz8's combat over any of EO's and sometimes even Grimrock
But yeah this. It's too late to see enemies suddenly swarming on you :/
Blocked.
thequestion
Member
There was a Wizardry game released on the ps2 which was amazing. Wish it was on psn.
Tale of the forsaken land. If you can, check it out.
Tale of the forsaken land. If you can, check it out.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wiz8 might have annoying encounters, but at least you see them.
Also they don't have pointlessly weird class names
cj_iwakura
Member
Fantastic game. I think Japanese Wizardry games are way better than the Western ones.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Yeah, this is true, but it's a minor thing compared to endless waves of visible ranbat patrols that home in on you un-aggroed when you're in line-of-sight (I once got triple teamed by three packs coming from completely different directions once), nor the "search for a doorway or bye bye Fairy" way enemies behaved.
8BitsAtATime
Member
Someone should have a list of these types of games? Id been interested in checking them out
Mr.Deadshot
Member
Absolutely. Combat is fantastic in Wiz8 with the positioning of Party members and their constant chatter.
Sammy Samusu
Member
OMG I REMEMBER THAT :lol
He was constantly attack on GAF. :lol
It's that ugly.
I think it was the dancer artwork.
cartman414
Member
Dude, some of these examples make me want to hurl. Some of the precursor examples either don't fit (Zelda 1/2), or still hold up favorably (FFV, Doom) if not moreso (especially System Shock vs. Bioshock).
I'd consider Diablo a de-evolution in terms of depth. Besides, other action RPGs such as Ys do the action part so much better.
Yeah, that is an instant turn off for anyone who is at least somewhat interested in RPGs. You can't get most people to even try those games for free thanks to the loli slant. I'd say a more reasonable response is dungeon crawlers aren't usually heavy when it comes to story, meaning those growning up with later FF games tend to shy away.
I'm not big on the genre myself, but the core exploration and combat in Persona Q was quite enjoyable, regardless of how terrible the story and character interactions were.
petran79
Banned
If the characters looked more realistic like actual teenagers, people would find them even more disturbing
On a personal level prior to the Switch I didn't really invest in any handheld system which is where most of these games haves lived for a long time. If they release a good one on Switch I'll be interested, was always curious to play Etrian Odyssey for example even if I wish the art style where different.
Bl@de
Member
Definetly. Wizardry 8 has the best phase based combat of all time.
Nikodemos
Member
Actually enemies trying to surround you is one of the better aspects of combat in Wizardry 8, since it stands to reason foes would try to get your squishy mages out of the picture first.
But yeah, the way some enemy patrols laser-locked on you (with no indicaton that you had been spotted) was annoying. Which is why Chameleon was one of the spells I always cast at full power. And even then it didn't work all the time.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
It was one-dimensional and one-way though. No traps or lures, no scouting ahead by roguish types, etc. They could surround MY blob, but I couldnt surround THEM.
Did make PBAoEs easier though!
j^aws
Member
It was one-dimensional and one-way though. No traps or lures, no scouting ahead by roguish types, etc. They could surround MY blob, but I couldnt surround THEM.
Did make PBAoEs easier though!
Agreed on the above, although for its time, Wizardry 8 had the most refined evolution of a dungeon crawlers battle system. And remember, this was circa 2001. What you are asking for is a further evolution, where we would have sub-squad parties. Think of squad-based strategy games with the ability to split groups of people and position them independently on a map. You'd have even larger scale battles. I have no doubt the studio responible for Wizardry 8 would've realised this goal in a future iteration as Wizardry 9 or 10. But alas, they didn't even really finish Wizardry 8 before releasing it, and subsequently went out of business.
Those complaining about the slow battles in Wizardry 8, once you build the right party and effectively use all the available skills and equipment, you can slice through maps like a knife through butter, and at times, this feels like an amazing strategy game disguised as an FPS... This is so satisfying when you consider how tough it is from the start, and rewarding for effective builds. This is the game.
psychowave
Member
Or they could look like adults.
Ceadeus
Gold Member
my thought too
They look more like pre-teens or younger than teens.
Change EO art style from this
to something like this
More sales guaranteed.
TBH, you're just switching from one niche group to another. You'd probably get the same number of sales but from a different group of people.
What do the people talking about art direction think of Stranger of Sword City (which actually has two different art style settings)?
Or Elminage?
Or Elminage?
Sumio Mondo
Member
The ideal artwork for me in games with this setting. Shame Elminage is woefully mediocre. I'd love to see that artwork in a standard turn-based JRPG or SRPG. The closest to it that I can get in SRPGs is Front Mission character art (Jun Suemi, Yoshitaka Amano, Akihiro Yamada or Yusuke Naora) in standard JRPGs nowadays the likes of Kazuma Kaneko/Amano with interesting art styles is disappearing being replaced by Falcom/Tales Of style generic dreck. It says everything when initially you had SMTxFE art showing off Kaneko's style then being replaced with the generic animu art we eventually got in Tokyo Mirage Sessions. Art styles can make or break a game for me (or even get me to try a game in the first place). Shame to see so many JRPGs regress so much in the art aspect now. Even Akihiko Yoshida isn't as good as he used to be and is being more pandering now.
On that note, I really need to give Stranger of Sword City a go on Vita. Loved that game's artwork (the original artwork, of course, not the crap they added in later).
cj_iwakura
Member
Elminage's monster art is god tier. The character art is kind of bland, but that's what customs are for.
Elminage is a game with very weird highs and lows. The dungeons are full of crazy designs, lots to do and see, but the story is very thin, even compared to the likes of EO.
Still, it's probably the most content-packed DC I've ever played.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wiz8 lets you have lizardmen in party.
Sammy Samusu
Member
Nope.Change EO art style from this
to something like this
More sales guaranteed.
Change from this:
To this:
More sales guaranteed.
fuzzy_slippers
Neo Member
I can ignore the creepy anime crap in most Japanese games (the PS2 Wizardry game was nice for having none that I recall at least) but I wish they'd experiment with gameplay more. The tweaks they make game to game are tiny. You see how Wizardry 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 represent major shifts in how the game is played yet Japan sticks to Wizardry 5. M&M also made major changes and tried new styles going from 5 to 6.
The biggest change Western crawlers made was abandoning modal combat. The implementation in Wizardry 8/M&M 6-8 relied way too much on hordes of boring enemies, but the idea is solid. There's also no reason it *needs* to be slow like Wiz 8. W&W sort of the last crawler of the Western era also tried this approach. I've never seen a single Japanese crawler that did which is a real shame. They've kept the genre alive but also in stasis.
I'm not sure you'd even call SMT a DRPG but they do have the most interesting gameplay of any of the Japanese games. The emphasis on targeting status weakness adds a bit more tactical variety and the pokemon monster collecting keeps party management interesting throughout the game. Party creation is an interesting part of the crawler formula but generally management is pretty minimal once that is over so I like how SMT keeps it up throughout. Its a shame the series trajectory has been to make it more of a regular JRPG over time than evolve the crawling aspect.
The biggest change Western crawlers made was abandoning modal combat. The implementation in Wizardry 8/M&M 6-8 relied way too much on hordes of boring enemies, but the idea is solid. There's also no reason it *needs* to be slow like Wiz 8. W&W sort of the last crawler of the Western era also tried this approach. I've never seen a single Japanese crawler that did which is a real shame. They've kept the genre alive but also in stasis.
I'm not sure you'd even call SMT a DRPG but they do have the most interesting gameplay of any of the Japanese games. The emphasis on targeting status weakness adds a bit more tactical variety and the pokemon monster collecting keeps party management interesting throughout the game. Party creation is an interesting part of the crawler formula but generally management is pretty minimal once that is over so I like how SMT keeps it up throughout. Its a shame the series trajectory has been to make it more of a regular JRPG over time than evolve the crawling aspect.
I dunno, a lot of issues that people have brought up have been addressed other than artistic choices. With the Untold games, you can follow a narrative or choose a classic mode. In the newer remake modes, character interactions are charming and you watch them grow as you progress through the dungeon. Even without a strong character driven narrative, there's an impression to be had. There is a story and it makes sense, it's just not showcased in like other mediums.
Persona 3 is not an evolution of DRPGs, it's a different genre, almost a sim with social links. Exploring Tartarus was a slog. Dark Souls, I have no interest in. 7th Dragon for the PSP and 3DS allows you to see your characters in battle and move through a dungeon but I felt dungeon design was a little flat compared to EO games.
I think it's always going to be a niche genre with added tweaks. A complete identity change will turn off a very small but loyal base and others will pass it over. Art style change? A lot of WRPG's, I pass over because I dislike the art themes.
Persona 3 is not an evolution of DRPGs, it's a different genre, almost a sim with social links. Exploring Tartarus was a slog. Dark Souls, I have no interest in. 7th Dragon for the PSP and 3DS allows you to see your characters in battle and move through a dungeon but I felt dungeon design was a little flat compared to EO games.
I think it's always going to be a niche genre with added tweaks. A complete identity change will turn off a very small but loyal base and others will pass it over. Art style change? A lot of WRPG's, I pass over because I dislike the art themes.
uncredited male
Member
cj_iwakura
Member
The PS3 J-Wizardry had a pretty grounded art style too.
Not like the PS2 one, but still.
Lizard Fighters, Tiger Samurai, and Dog[gonit], why use at all when Dwarves exist.
Nikodemos
Member
Don't forget the Faeries, which make great ninjas. Or the Mook, who are basically non-aggressive Wookies with a great love for technology.Lizard Fighters, Tiger Samurai, and Dog[gonit], why use at all when Dwarves exist.
Or why not talk about the recruitable ones as well? Ferret people. Spiderslugs. Rhino people. Demons. Machines.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I REALLY just don't find the first person aspect and space by space dungeon crawling very appealing. It's main reason I've been unable to get in to the Shin Megami Tensei 3DS games. Not even totally sure why. I think it's that I like seeing the character's attacks actually animated and the dungeon crawling is too claustrophobic.
Dimitri LH
Member
I think its more about representation while also keeping it fun for me, I tried the first EO when it came out on DS and it just never clicked, and yet Class of Heroes did for me. Then years later, I loved Persona Q and Demon Gaze.
EdwardTivrusky
Member
As Humble Bundle have a sale on i was looking through their selection of DRPGs and wanted some recommendations for PC.
I picked up:
Elminage Gothic for £1.74
Paper Sorcerer for £1.99
And am pondering getting one/some of the following:
Stranger of Sword City - £11.24
Operation Abyss/Babel - £35 - or one of the games singly.
Moero Deluxe - £11.49
Mind Zero - £7.49
Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - £4.49
Crystal Rift (VR Compatible) - £1.74
Any recommendations?
I picked up:
Elminage Gothic for £1.74
Paper Sorcerer for £1.99
And am pondering getting one/some of the following:
Stranger of Sword City - £11.24
Operation Abyss/Babel - £35 - or one of the games singly.
Moero Deluxe - £11.49
Mind Zero - £7.49
Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - £4.49
Crystal Rift (VR Compatible) - £1.74
Any recommendations?
The only ones Ive played from that list are Stranger of Sword City, Operation Abyss and Mind Zero, and SoSS would be easily my pick of the three. Operation Abyss is fairly similar in mechanics if not presentation, so if you like SoSS, that would be my next pick.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I'm just hankering down to get into eo5 this year giving it my first real fair shake.
That said I'd say what kept me away was the lack art/immersion building assets.
Like in my mind unless the mechanic crunching is appealing like it seems to me now the combat on it own can seem boring since it's basically almost all just menus there's no character assets animated to play the battle out, no sprites moving etc.
Sames goes for the dungeons which def could be even better realized with more budget.
But it is what it is I guess. I've grown older my tastes changed and now I'm just looking forward to jump into drpgs as a genre starting with eo5.
That said I'd say what kept me away was the lack art/immersion building assets.
Like in my mind unless the mechanic crunching is appealing like it seems to me now the combat on it own can seem boring since it's basically almost all just menus there's no character assets animated to play the battle out, no sprites moving etc.
Sames goes for the dungeons which def could be even better realized with more budget.
But it is what it is I guess. I've grown older my tastes changed and now I'm just looking forward to jump into drpgs as a genre starting with eo5.
Mr_Appleby
Member
I think about this all the time lately. How to split up the party into different groups without slowing the gameplay down to molasses. There were two Amiga games, Hired Guns and Bloodwych, that accomplished this through split screen but they are crawlers in the style of Dungeon Master/Eye of the Beholder where the world ticks along independently of your actions and so don't have to deal with situations like one party being in turn-by-turn combat with 6 or 7 enemies while the other is exploring.
Another Amiga game called Fate: Gates of Dawn had more traditional turn-based combat and party splitting but iirc you had to put one party to rest for 8 hours in order to switch to the other one, and you weren't able to switch back until the first woke up. You could have something like 20 different parties of 6 members each.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I'll vouch for Stranger of Sword City. It's really awesome.
Operation Abyss/Babel is also good, though not quite as accessible.
I haven't played Mind Zero, but most people I follow say to pass on it.
Wrote a fairly lengthy review for Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - http://steamcommunity.com/id/pepsimanvsjoe/recommended/409450 - In short, I recommend it.
BTW, Elminage Gothic and Paper Sorcerer are both great. Although, if you haven't played an Elminage game before, I recommend checking out this beginner's help thread that I put together a few years back - https://steamcommunity.com/app/291960/discussions/0/616188473180509159/
EdwardTivrusky
Member
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I've been enjoying dipping my toes back into DRPGs with Paper Sorcerer and i bought Stranger Of Sword City last night. I've already played the Wizardry/Might & Magic/Dungeon Master/Captive crawlers so i was looking for something different and now i have a whole slew of games in my wishlist/bookmarks.
I may also go for Op Babel and Fall of the Dungeon Guardians just to round things off.
Thanks for the link, Pepsiman, the more i read about Elminage the more it seems like a job you have to plan rather than a game so the thread will come in handy when i feel up to it
I may also go for Op Babel and Fall of the Dungeon Guardians just to round things off.
Thanks for the link, Pepsiman, the more i read about Elminage the more it seems like a job you have to plan rather than a game so the thread will come in handy when i feel up to it
There's also 7 mages that looks interesting, but i haven't played it so i don't know(also i'm not sure it's a "dungeon" rpg)
https://www.humblebundle.com/store/7-mages
Omegasquash
Member
More of these on mobile would be great. The classics, that is. I don't even think there's been a Wizardry port to iOS.
There are a few, but they don't feel like they used to. Maybe that's saying more about me than them.
There are a few, but they don't feel like they used to. Maybe that's saying more about me than them.