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[mcgarrett]

But what is there to wonder about?

How Sony managed to screw up so royally after two generations of being the dominant console manufacturer. Yes we know it's overpriced and there are few games, but we don't really know how and why Sony let it happen. (beyond the public marketing speak about 10-year plans)

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I always think about the death of reason. Dave Sim is complete crackpot about nearly everything, but he's spot on about what's happened to society in respect to Emotion and Rational Thought. It's a theme that finds its way into a lot of my arguments, simply because its present in so many aspects.

I would never embark on a console jihad, either. It would require me to shoot WipeOut in the face, and that will never happen. I've spent this thread talking straightforwardly about the PS3, not spouting FUD all over the place. (And isn't that telling, "Fear, Uncertainy, Doubt". Guess what all of those are?)

The only reason I brought up what I did is because the general tone of all of these threads tends to be "Why is this happening to the PS3? Don't they know it's early on in this generation? Too early to be making this kind of call?" And that's my answer. A reasonable person would make that conclusion, but reason doesn't sell books.

And what may be the first point of irony I can comfortably vocalize ever in my life, he tries to downplay your argument of reason vs rationality / emotion vs logic by explaining that you could have been right but it was the way he felt that put him off. But I'm sure someone will point out that this is not irony.

i've just gotten back from the gym, and sometimes i think about gaf on the treadmill, because it helps pass the time. i worked out what bothers me about your posts in this thread -- i couldn't phrase the thing earlier. you didn't bring up the death of reason out of any concern for reason as such. you brought it up to milk this news bit for its full negative potential. to draft a real social and intellectual problem into your console jihad is in poor taste. whether there's truth to what you're saying or no.

I didn't get that impression but it's probably because of Birdie's avatar is not as annoying. Put another way, I haven't noticed any console jihad's by Birdie but haven't paid as much attention. I mean, it doesn't compare to Drohn's quest against waggle and bad graphics.

 

[Odrion]

It's failing (or failed) because it was released one year after the debut of the other high fidelity console, costed two hundred dollars more, advertised with nothing special to differentiate itself from the 360, no iconic mascots to pull large amounts of buyers in, an incredibly mediocre first year, the quantitude amounts of articles damning the console (and praising the others) and it's previous console's biggest draw of quality games was from companies outside of Sony who are and will bail out of the current console due to common sense.

 

[Jon_Danger]

Sony lost their leadership position in the gaming industry and aren't any closer to winning the movie format war than they were a year ago.

I would consider that a failure. More importantly, stockholders would consider that a failure.

Failure != no longer on shelves. A product can be considered a failure way before that point.

Actually.. I think overall hardware in homes Sony is still #1 thanks to the PS2.

I just think it is unfair for someone to call something a failure when it is hardly even out on the market yet. I mean, it is selling the same amount as the x360 was a year ago. Did people write books about the failure of the xbox?

 

[Brofist]

How Sony managed to screw up so royally after two generations of being the dominant console manufacturer. Yes we know it's overpriced and there are few games, but we don't really know how and why Sony let it happen. (beyond the public marketing speak about 10-year plans)

arrogance. happens to the best of them (see Nintendo)

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Actually.. I think overall hardware in homes Sony is still #1 thanks to the PS2.

I just think it is unfair for someone to call something a failure when it is hardly even out on the market yet. I mean, it is selling the same amount as the x360 was a year ago. Did people write books about the failure of the xbox?

This book was written in Japan... the 360 was never expected to make a dent. The PS3 being outsold by 7:1 was just plain never expected.

 

[Tobor]

And what may be the first point of irony I can comfortably vocalize ever in my life, he tries to downplay your argument of reason vs rationality / emotion vs logic by explaining that you could have been right but it was the way he felt that put him off. But I'm sure someone will point out that this is not irony.


I didn't get that impression but it's probably because of Birdie's avatar is not as annoying. Put another way, I haven't noticed any console jihad's by Birdie but haven't paid as much attention. I mean, it doesn't compare to Drohn's quest against waggle and bad graphics.

Drohne accusing BB of jihadism is chuckle-worthy.

 

[mcgarrett]

arrogance. happens to the best of them (see Nintendo)

Perhaps... just saying that there's plenty of fodder for a book.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

I don't think the PS3 is a failure in terms of being a viable platform for games but it is a failure because it hasn't continued where the PS2 left off. It'll still be a good console. It just won't be the best console.

 

[Brofist]

Perhaps... just saying that there's plenty of fodder for a book.

yeah I'm sure he has more substantial evidence then just arrogance. I myself like to sum up things briefly

 

[Pureauthor]

Derp, derp, derpa? Hope you are talking about current game library, which is a no brainer a console that's been out far longer should have more games.

Current game library, sure. And that the X360 has been out longer is absolutely no reason to say the fact that the current X360 library stomps the PS3 library into the mud is somehow irrelevant. If a consumer walks into a store and chooses between the two, he's not going to say to himself 'Hmm, the X360 has more games I want - but only because it's been out longer. PS3 it is!"

Microsoft planned an early launch - and they took some lumps for it too, in case you forgot. This is their payoff.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Actually.. I think overall hardware in homes Sony is still #1 thanks to the PS2.

I just think it is unfair for someone to call something a failure when it is hardly even out on the market yet. I mean, it is selling the same amount as the x360 was a year ago. Did people write books about the failure of the xbox?

Yup, it's called Red Ringed.

I fully understand that the PS2 is selling and is still selling software but to call the Playstation brand #1 is complete BS. Playstation software doesn't dominate, at least in Japan. Out of the top 50 software each week, PS brands may occupy 10 or so at most. If you want to use hardware in homes or something, you could just as easily look at GBC and state that PSP only has 5% of the market or something crazy. In reality, PS2 is playing it's swan song and doing a hell of a job but it sells well 'for a 7 year old' system. And currently beating some next gen hardware year to date.

It'll be funny how Sony fans will adopt the same attitudes of the delusional Ntards from yesteryear. It used to be about profits and how Nintendo was doing well only because of the Gameboy, etc. Now, this guy shoves PS2 into the pot. Sony is losing and failing. The PS3 selling as well as the 360 last year is a failure. How low can we drop the expectations of a Sony console. It's selling as well as the first year from your chief competitor who came in a distant 2nd last gen? *snickers*

 

[Tobor]

Current game library, sure. And that the X360 has been out longer is absolutely no reason to say the fact that the current X360 library stomps the PS3 library into the mud is somehow irrelevant. If a consumer walks into a store and chooses between the two, he's not going to say to himself 'Hmm, the X360 has more games I want - but only because it's been out longer. PS3 it is!"

Microsoft planned an early launch - and they took some lumps for it too, in case you forgot. This is their payoff.

This is what i wanted to say, but you beat me to it. Well done.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Buyers are a fickle bunch. If the PS3 becomes reasonably priced and gets good games things probably will change.

This is 100% true, and is also likely to happen. But they will always be the most expensive console this gen and they have zero chance of the absurd '70% of the global market' domination that they had last gen.

Reality will end up somewhere in between 'ZOMG Sony is teh d00med' and market domination. It amazes me that some people still expect market domination, but the good news for them is that Sony is not doomed!

Microsoft planned an early launch - and they took some lumps for it too, in case you forgot. This is their payoff.

Took their lumps? We still have people who say that MS should have waited for high-def disc, a decision which would have resulted in a quick Dreamcast-style death for them.

 

[Jokeropia]

So you take the demand for the 1st year line-up/price and extrapolate it for the next 4 years?

It's worked excellently for every console in history so far.

 

[Tobor]

This is 100% true, and is also likely to happen. But they will always be the most expensive console this gen and they have zero chance of the absurd '70% of the global market' domination that they had last gen.

Reality will end up somewhere in between 'ZOMG Sony is teh d00med' and market domination. It amazes me that some people still expect market domination, but the good news for them is that Sony is not doomed!

Doomed does not equal failure. The PS3 can be a failure and yet not be doomed.

 

[Jon_Danger]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

How much?

In terms of worldwide shipments, MS has last said X360 is at 11.6 million as of June 30, about 600 days from launch. About 600 days from Xbox's launch was June 30, 2003, at which point it had shipped 9.4 million. Looking at things that way does slightly advantage X360 since its worldwide release was much closer to simultaneous than Xbox's, but it's a smaller difference than that between PS2 and PS3.

Famitsu has X360 up by about 30K over where Xbox was at the same time, a large improvement in the last year considering it used to be far behind. By US NPD through 21 months X360 is about 300K ahead.

 

[ggd210]

I don't need a book to know about this....
summary: overpriced, and GOOD games lagged!!!

have a nice day!

 

[Pureauthor]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

It matters to me because I don't want any console on the market above USD 200.

If the cheaper console is winning, then it's all gravy for me.

 

[Jon_Danger]

It matters to me because I don't want any console on the market above USD 200.

If the cheaper console is winning, then it's all gravy for me.

What kind of logic is that? Don't you want a console with good games to win? I bet the game.com is less than 200 bucks.

Do you want the game.com to win?

 

[antiloop]

Doomed does not equal failure. The PS3 can be a failure and yet not be doomed.

But he is talking about failure compared to PS2. It's hard to beat the perfect machine.

 

[RiskyChris]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

Some people don't want the market to trend towards steep console prices, some do.

Some people want a more mainstream appeal in consoles to ensure the industry's stability, some only want hardcore experiences (this is dangerous).

These people have vested interests in how a generation evolves. If one wants a nice high def super 35.3 uncompressed audio experience, he should be pissed that Sony's flying wildly.

 

[Pureauthor]

What kind of logic is that? Don't you want a console with good games to win? I bet the game.com is less than 200 bucks.

Do you want the game.com to win?

The console that wins is the console that gets good games.

If the game.com won/wins, then it'll get good games, and then I'll buy it and play those good games. It did not win, so it did not get good games, so I did not buy it.

That kind of logic.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

What kind of logic is that? Don't you want a console with good games to win? I bet the game.com is less than 200 bucks.

Do you want the game.com to win?

Don't be an ass.

He said what he said, and I very much agree with him. The fastest way to lose buyers is asking too much for a product. Which Sony is learning quite strongly right now.

 

[Tobor]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

We follow the gaming industry. That's why we're all here. Regardless of preference, the market leader falling to dead last is a huge story.

You think because you disagree with a discussion, that discussion becomes uninteresting?

 

[Jon_Danger]

The console that wins is the console that gets good games.

If the game.com won/wins, then it'll get good games, and then I'll buy it and play those good games. It did not win, so it did not get good games, so I did not buy it.

That kind of logic.

Well, the problem is, some game designers want to make games that the Wii cannot do.

There needs to be a console capable of HD entertainment.

In japan, there really is only one contender.

How is the PS3 going to fail?

 

[Saitou]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

.....says the guy defending the PS3.




Yeah, your opinion is void.

 

[Jon_Danger]

We follow the gaming industry. That's why we're all here. Regardless of preference, the market leader falling to dead last is a huge story.

You think because you disagree with a discussion, that discussion becomes uninteresting?

In terms of overall revenue... MS is behind. Didn't they have a net loss of some billions of dollars last year?

 

[Tobor]

Well, the problem is, some game designers want to make games that the Wii cannot do.

There needs to be a console capable of HD entertainment.

In japan, there really is only one contender.

How is the PS3 going to fail?

By continuing to be outsold by the Wii. This isn't complicated, Jon.

 

[Saitou]

There needs to be a console capable of HD entertainment.

HA HA HA OH WOW



You cannot be serious. This..... this isn't really happening!

 

[Pureauthor]

Well, the problem is, some game designers want to make games that the Wii cannot do.

Exactly. These guys are artists. They put their heart and soul into their creations, and they strive to create the best product possible, regardless of how much potential profit it can make.

And that's why these guys aren't the ones that get to decide where the games go. The publishers (read: businessmen) do.

There needs to be a console capable of HD entertainment.

No, there doesn't.

In japan, there really is only one contender.

...As far as HD gaming is concerned, in Japan, there are no contenders.

How is the PS3 going to fail?

By tracking behind the Gamecube... which is what's happening right now.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

I think the stupidest thing is that people actually care?

Is this a contest? Or a race?

all of the consoles have something to offer, does it matter who is ahead?

This is pointless stupid fanboyism.

If thats really how you feel, avoid posting in these sort of topics. Works for me.

 

[Tobor]

In terms of overall revenue... MS is behind. Didn't they have a net loss of some billions of dollars last year?

Do you understand what we are discussing? The market leader has fallen to dead last in one generation. You claim to find this uninteresting and of no importance, yet keep posting.

 

[Bulla564]

Yeah, the 'is too expensive' image of the PS3 will fade away, to be replaced by 'it's an X360, only not as good image'.

In what sense? reliability? online? because as for games, the gap will close pretty quickly next year.

Yep. Once the price barrier is lifted, there's little stopping PS2 owners from upgrading. The question is where they upgrade to, and in that regard, there's a heck of a lot stopping them from upgrading to a PS3.

Seeing as how the X360 is not doing that much better than Xbox1, do you really have any evidence of PS2 owners "jumping in"?

 

[Tobor]

In what sense? reliability? online? because as for games, the gap will close pretty quickly next year.



Seeing as how the X360 is not doing that much better than Xbox1, do you really have any evidence of PS2 owners "jumping in"?

In the "public perception" sense. The only sense that matters.

 

[rs7k]

The 360 is tracking ahead of the Xbox at a $399 price point. The Xbox was $199 very shortly after launch, so it is more successful than the Xbox by a fair margin.

There's no indication of PS2 owners going to PS3. If you look at Wii sales however...

 

[Beer Monkey]

Seeing as how the X360 is not doing that much better than Xbox1

X360 is doing about 2x better than Xbox 1 would have done at these crazy high prices this generation. Think about it. Xbox 1 couldn't get a goddamn sale until they cut to $199 and $179. Imagine the huge pent-up demand that is waiting to buy 360s once they hit mainstream pricing.

 

[Pureauthor]

In what sense? reliability? online? because as for games, the gap will close pretty quickly next year.

In terms of games. The gap will close pretty quickly?

X360 is coming out with Halo 3 this year, and it's going to clean up the holidays. Neither MGS nor FF have the sheer selling power of Halo in the USA, and in Japan, it's a moot point because... well, both consoles are dead.

Seeing as how the X360 is not doing that much better than Xbox1, do you really have any evidence of PS2 owners "jumping in"?

No, but I have evidence of PS2 owners going "Wii would like to play."

...

Man, that pun is horrible.

 

[Jon_Danger]

...As far as HD gaming is concerned, in Japan, there are no contenders.

so... the ps3 doesn't exist?

 

[RiskyChris]

In the "public perception" sense. The only sense that matters.

Bingo. It's kind of sad, but that's how the market works. Hopefully Sony drops the PLAYSTATION nomenclature for generation Eight.

 

[d[-_-]b]

so... the ps3 doesn't exist?

practically... yeah.

 

[Pureauthor]

so... the ps3 doesn't exist?

In terms of public perception? Yeah, pretty much.

Or did you forget the initial point of this thread?

 

[Jon_Danger]

Do you understand what we are discussing? The market leader has fallen to dead last in one generation. You claim to find this uninteresting and of no importance, yet keep posting.

Do you understand logic?

The company making money is the winner.

Nintendo and Sony are both making money.

 

[RiskyChris]

Do you understand logic?

The company making money is the winner.

Nintendo and Sony are both making money.

=( You change the argument a lot.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Nintendo and Sony are both making money.

Sony is making money. PS3 is not making money. The OP and the book are about the failure of the system, not the division.

 

[Tobor]

Do you understand logic?

The company making money is the winner.

Nintendo and Sony are both making money.

Sony is preparing an IPO to cover losses in the gaming division. I'm failing to see your logic.

 

[Jon_Danger]

In terms of public perception? Yeah, pretty much.

Or did you forget the initial point of this thread?

In Japan?

Sony doesn't exist...

In japan...

yeah

 

[Pureauthor]

Nintendo and Sony are both making money.

Not with the PS3 they're not. And if you're talking company as a whole, you're missing out on a player here.

Also, the GCN made Nintendo money last gen. Didn't stop it from being a miserable failure.

In Japan?

Sony doesn't exist...

In japan...

yeah

The PS3, for all practical terms, might as well not exist in Japan, yes. Not Sony.

Look, I understand your zeal, but apparently you're not a Sales-Age guy. That's fine, but don't try to wade into Sales-Age territory if you're not. I'm not even one of the heavyweights, but the flaws in your arguments are... well, painfully easy to spot.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

For a topic that apparently doesn't matter, Jon_Danger has a lot to say about it.

1: This isn't true.
2: This ISN'T TRUE!
3: From the right angle, this isn't true.
4: Only fanboys care whether it's true. It doesn't matter who's ahead.
5: It matters who's ahead!
6: This is not going to be true.
7: Look over there!


(Sorry, they keep coming and I can't keep up.)