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Why DMC3's Vergil is the Best Rival in Gaming (Also Free Copies of DMC4 PC)

G

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Philippo said:
'sup guys.

tumblr_lp1bhycIuY1qe6fh8o1_r1_500.gif
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Ramza and Delita are incredibly well developed characters part of a phenomenal and intricate tale, but I have to give their rivalry more thought.

I'm trying to look at the rivalry specifically from a game design standpoint, rather than one strictly based on story.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
GuardianE said:
Vergil has proper motivation. Isn't the implication that his lust for power is fueled by his desire to never feel helpless again after watching his mother killed before him? It's a defense mechanism where he handles the trauma very differently from Dante. Whereas Vergil embraces the demonic side of himself because he knows it can satisfy this overwhelming need, Dante suppresses it within himself because he hates all things demon, including that part of himself.
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This is the only thing that makes sense really.

DMC4's story was made after DMC3 and probably forgot a few key elements of the canon (like the age of the characters, their actions before DMC3 etc). While they wrote Vergil being Nero's father, it wasn't written very well at all and you need a lot of mental gymnastics to make sense out of it. But given the events of DMC4 and the character of Nero.... it's also the only thing that actually makes some sense.

This whole chapter in Vergil's life is pretty much absent and needs to have some light shed upon it. Otherwise we will always have these debates.
 
Astral Dog

Astral Dog

Member
yes, Vergil would lose some of his villany, and would not have that much of a reason to oppose them.
i would like his character more, but its better to keep things more simple.
Maybe they will be ambiguous on this matter, a little hint here and there. and pass to other stuff.

Edit: could be a liiitttle part of the reason he did it, though, along with his mother.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
33-Hit-Combo said:
Isn't this explained in a DMC3 cutscene? I definitely recall this as his justification!
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It's the assumption based on the "might controls everything and without strength you can't protect anything... let alone yourself" quote of Vergil. It's the motto that Vergil pretty much stands by and what he is trying to teach to Dante. But what does he mean by "protect anything"? Is he alluding that he could not protect his mother from being killed and also telling Dante the same? Or is he talking about his beloved/unborn child? If Vergil was a through and through villain he would not be concerned about protecting anything except for himself.
 
A

Aexact

Member
Philippo said:
'sup guys.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp1bhycIuY1qe6fh8o1_r1_500.gif
Click to expand...
I don't know if rival is the word. Delita and Ramza's goals were not directly opposed, you never actually fight him even in a battle of words, and they're not even on bad terms. And frankly, given what Delita becomes, you're probably supposed to get the impression that he's bigger and stronger then Ramza, comparing their exclusive abilities. Not that it's mechanically impossible if the player had to 1v1 but Delita learns magic sword abilities that OHKO and Ramza learns Shout. Someone's being portrayed as a total badass and it's not the MC.

Great relationship though. Really personalized the War of the Lions by having them as the main characters.
 
B

Bugs Bunny

Banned
Nero is not Vergil's son. Nero didn't recieve his demon powers till just before DMC4. If you pay attention to the story you would know that's true because EVERYONE is surprised about Nero's arm, these people he's been living his whole life with. Even Nero talks about his arm(the only demon part of him) it's in a tense that shows there was a time he didn't have it. Nero's a human that somehow ended up getting an arm that has "some connection" to Sparda. That's it.

There is no evidence Nero has anything to do with Vergil outside they both used Yamato which means jack nothing. It's just as plausable that Nero is the 3rd Son of Sparda. We at least KNOW Sparda was actually there in Fortuna & since he is AFK, there is no reason why he couldn't have fathered Nero.
 
B

Bugs Bunny

Banned
To be frank, Nero sucks because he doesn't make sense. He was just added because they wanted a new character for their Devil Bringer mechanic. So they said screw the canon & made him. Reminds me a lot of Alien 3 & how much that sucked for the same reason.
 
S

Syril

Member
Bugs Bunny said:
To be frank, Nero sucks because he doesn't make sense. He was just added because they wanted a new character for their Devil Bringer mechanic. So they said screw the canon & made him. Reminds me a lot of Alien 3 & how much that sucked for the same reason.
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Really, every game has said screw the canon in some form. In the original game it's stated that Dante had lost Vergil along with his mother even.

joe2187 said:
What game is this?! that art style looks cool as shit.
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That's Final Fantasy Tactics, specifically the PSP version, War of the Lions, which is the version that added those awesome cutscenes.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Bugs Bunny said:
Nero is not Vergil's son. Nero didn't recieve his demon powers till just before DMC4. If you pay attention to the story you would know that's true because EVERYONE is surprised about Nero's arm, these people he's been living his whole life with. Even Nero talks about his arm(the only demon part of him) it's in a tense that shows there was a time he didn't have it. Nero's a human that somehow ended up getting an arm that has "some connection" to Sparda. That's it.

There is no evidence Nero has anything to do with Vergil outside they both used Yamato which means jack nothing. It's just as plausable that Nero is the 3rd Son of Sparda. We at least KNOW Sparda was actually there in Fortuna & since he is AFK, there is no reason why he couldn't have fathered Nero.
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*There is no proof showing that Nero is a full human before getting the demonic arm.

*It's not that Nero used Yamato... it's that him awakening his Devil Trigger reforged Yamato telekinetically. And then why would Nero utter "I need more power"?

*You just said that Nero is a human... but now you are saying he could also be Sparda's son which would make him half demon just like Dante/Vergil. So you are contradicting yourself.

*How do you counter this statement of Dante to Nero when referring to Yamato:

"I can't have something of that kinda power floating around now, can I? It's got to stay in the family."

Why can't Dante keep Yamato yet Nero can? Dante let's Nero have it despite making that statement. It's because he knows that Nero is Vergil's son and Yamato more rightfully belongs to Nero, not himself.

*In the DMC4 novel it's already been confirmed that Nero is Vergil's son. A guy at Capcom has also stated it before. People on the inside have confirmed it as well. As far as Capcom is concerned this is the canon.

*Sparda isn't AFK he is dead. He is more dead than Vergil.


I guess DMC4SE has to explicitly state in game that Nero is Vergil's son for people to believe it.
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
Vergils character and the interaction between Dante is why DMC3 still stands as my all time favorite. Gameplay be damned.
 
L

lowhighkang_LHK

Member
Nero could also be Vergil reincarnated. To say that Vergils soul lives on in Nero, and that at coming of age Vergil awakened through Nero's devil trigger, which is why Neros DT ghost shares a similar design pattern to Vergil's.

But if Vergil is still alive then this can't be true.
 
G

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Bugs Bunny said:
Nero is not Vergil's son. Nero didn't recieve his demon powers till just before DMC4. If you pay attention to the story you would know that's true because EVERYONE is surprised about Nero's arm, these people he's been living his whole life with. Even Nero talks about his arm(the only demon part of him) it's in a tense that shows there was a time he didn't have it. Nero's a human that somehow ended up getting an arm that has "some connection" to Sparda. That's it.

There is no evidence Nero has anything to do with Vergil outside they both used Yamato which means jack nothing. It's just as plausable that Nero is the 3rd Son of Sparda. We at least KNOW Sparda was actually there in Fortuna & since he is AFK, there is no reason why he couldn't have fathered Nero.
Click to expand...

The localization team basically admitted that Nero was intended to be Vergil's son, but it was ultimate something they decided to not include at the end.

Just because the arm was a surprise to everyone doesn't really mean anything. It could have lain dormant within him until he reached maturity, a common trope.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Basically this is the BEST evidence we have for Nero's origin. Every other origin story I have heard has very little going for it or is simply far more ludicrous than this. The only 2 contradictions that one can bring up against Nero being Vergil's son are:

*The timeline doesn't add up. Vergil is 18 in DMC3, he would have to have done it before that time as he goes straight to hell right after DMC3. If Vergil "did it" at around that age then I would still argue that it works out because DMC1 is set 20 years after Dante had the incident with his mother being killed (it's generally agreed that this event happened when Dante was around 7-8 years). DMC3 happened around 10 years after that which puts Dante/Vergil ages at around 18-19 as well with DMC1 happening a decade after that so Dante is 28 years in DMC1. Now it has been stated specifically by Kobayashi that DMC4 takes place around 10 years after DMC1 which would make Dante 37/38 years in DMC4. Now if Nero was conceived at around DMC3 time then his age matches up PERFECTLY with Dante's age and by default Vergil's age as well.

This is also confirmed by Kobayashi that Dante is approaching 40 in DMC4 on PSM3 in 2007. This statement would confirm that timeline isn't really an issue with Nero being Vergil's son.


*It's not Vergil's character to bang a human. This can be countered in many ways with the most simple one being that Vergil never started hating humans. Hell he still probably doesn't, he just sees them as weaker... doesn't mean he is also not capable of love or affection. This is a very debatable issue in fact but this alone CANNOT rule out Vergil being Nero's father. There are characters far worse and evil than Vergil who have had a kid... let's be real here how many people expected Vegeta to tap a human chick in DBZ? It's not in his character at all but he did it anyway.
 
M

Murkrow

Banned
He can't be his Son. In the Novel yes but not in the game.

In the game Vergil is reincarnated in Nero's arm and appears when he devil triggers.

I guess Nero will somehow awaken him in the SE. But probably just temporarily and then he goes back to Nero's arm.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Murkrow said:
He can't be his Son. In the Novel yes but not in the game.

In the game Vergil is reincarnated in Nero's arm and appears when he devil triggers.

I guess Nero will somehow awaken him in the SE. But probably just temporarily and then he goes back to Nero's arm.
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And your evidence for this?

In any case this does not even disprove that Nero is Vergil's son. He can both be his father and have had his soul placed in his arm. I just think that whole plot point is pretty silly even for DMC standards (might fly well in the MGS universe though).
 
Kssio_Aug

Kssio_Aug

Member
Vergil is one of the best villains out there. And actually both Dante and Vergil make one another more interesting characters.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Jawmuncher said:
But who's Neros Mom?

Can we just mess up the timeline and sense and say it's Lucia somehow?
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Going by what Sanctus said in the DMC4 novel she is just a prostitute.

Real answer is that we don't really know.

There is some far fetched fan theory that the girl in the DMC3 manga named Alice who worked with Vergil and that could be Nero's mom... only problem is that the girl is 6 years old LMAO!
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
Dahbomb said:
Going by what Sanctus said in the DMC4 novel she is just a prostitute.

Real answer is that we don't really know.

There is some far fetched fan theory that the girl in the DMC3 manga named Alice who worked with Vergil and that could be Nero's mom... only problem is that the g is 6 years old LMAO!
Click to expand...
Now thats one hell of a fan theory.
 
C

CrimsonCrescendo

Banned
Bugs Bunny said:
Nero is not Vergil's son. Nero didn't recieve his demon powers till just before DMC4. If you pay attention to the story you would know that's true because EVERYONE is surprised about Nero's arm, these people he's been living his whole life with. Even Nero talks about his arm(the only demon part of him) it's in a tense that shows there was a time he didn't have it. Nero's a human that somehow ended up getting an arm that has "some connection" to Sparda. That's it.

There is no evidence Nero has anything to do with Vergil outside they both used Yamato which means jack nothing. It's just as plausable that Nero is the 3rd Son of Sparda. We at least KNOW Sparda was actually there in Fortuna & since he is AFK, there is no reason why he couldn't have fathered Nero.
Click to expand...

A) We don't know the extent of Nero's power before his arm awakened. He seemed right at home pulling off the bat shit aerobatics/feats of strengths/superhuman shit with Dante before Dante awakened his arm. His entire fighting style is based around his superhuman strength and agility. Pretty sure that several modifications to his gun and sword are tailored to his abilities.

B) "Coming of Age" is a very common trope, explaining the surprise. Dante also didn't have full access to his abilities until Vergil "awoke" them in DMC 3.

C) According to canon, his DT is a reflection of his soul (aka very demonic looking) and according to both Sanctus (explicitly) and Dante (inference), he is part of the Sparda bloodline. And looking at the concept art, they were planning on him unlocking a full devil form DT. He's part demon, through and through. How much is up for debate (maybe Vergil found another half human, maybe he got together with a human).

D) Nero using Yamato does not mean "jack". The Swords of Sparda respond to the family blood. Both Rebellion and Yamato responded to Nero, with Yamato coming to him in his time of need.

E) The novel stated it, the voice actors stated it, and employees have stated it: Nero is Vergil's son.
 
Jawmuncher

Jawmuncher

Member
Murkrow said:
Probably a demon whore.

Best bet is a Succubus. (And no, not that ugly worm thing from DmC but a hot one like Morrigan from Darkstalkers

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/188/3/7/morrigan_render_by_raf92-d3lc2e6.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

Vergil must have been down in the dumps.
Click to expand...
 
S

Sesha

Member
Nero being a clone of Vergil made by Mundus is the only thing that makes sense to me. Not a demon in the shape of a human, like Trish, but a full-blooded clone. It fits Mundus' character as well, given he supposedly carried out biological experiments according to Leviathan's profile.
 
G

Ganzlinger

Member
Morrigan in Devil May Cry's world would be interesting. But I'd prefer her with Dante. lol

But back to the thread... great post, OP. The final battle against Vergil in DMC3 was one of the best I ever had playing video games.
 
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