TomcatTheLion
Member
I've always liked Lightning for reasons unknown to me.
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Why do people hate Lightning (FFXIII?)
- Thread starter Silky
- Start date
PshycoNinja
Member
This is the kind of analysis I like. The problem I have with Lightning is exactly that. Its with her. Not the game. Not the level design. No, I dislike Lightning because of HER character.
See here's the problem. They made her stoic in the first game. She was an ass to everybody because "that was her character". Okay, I can deal with that. However, how you write a well told story is having a character transform over time and become a better person because of it. I never felt that with Lightning. The only difference between Lightning at the beginning of XIII to the Lightning at the end of XIII is that she
accepted that Snow and Serah are getting married and gave her blessing
Changing a personally for a character over and over again doesn't make a good character or even a strong one. It shows the creators aren't sure what to settle down on with her character and in turn makes her character a more contrived one than anything else.
I have always said cardboard box but these work too. ;P
HolyBaikal
Banned
Not exactly a large Final Fantasy fan. But I was pretty excited when Lighting was first announced. People complained that she looked butch, but I like androgyny, it's one of the things Final Fantasy is apparently famous for that I wouldn't wish would go away. While I think that femininity is great, I would like to see more 'masculine' or "butch" female characters in games. Particularly if they can be contrasted to the male characters, rather than just being a female character among a bunch of stereotypically masculine men. I welcomed more female characters like Faris in the Final Fantasy franchise.
I generally like androgynous characters, anyway. And Naoto is easily my favourite character in Persona 4. As far as I'm concerned, Final Fantasy needs more androgynous characters and more androgyny, not less.
I was also even moreso, excited for the prospect of for once, a truly female protagonist in a Final Fantasy game. Before the game was released and I realized how flawed it was, I was quite enamored by the idea of a badass female character with a gunblade.
When the game was released, however, Lighting was not only feminized(which there's nothing wrong with that, but I did like the original "butch" Lightning design). But her personality was a bit disappointing. As many have pointed out, she can be a bit similar to Cloud and Squall in the worst of ways. I think that hot-blooded personalities are a bit overrated. And I'm actually a bit happy that people don't like Snow just because he's "hot blooded". But it is appealing to have characters with a positive attitude who aren't always overly serious and brooding. I would have liked a little more of Snow's attitude in Lightning, I think.
My favourite Final Fantasy protagonist is Zidane. I find his womanizing rather annoying. But other than that, I like and miss plucky and positive characters. I like and prefer more plucky characters like that, even though I have no problem with angst. A lot of people found Snow rather annoying, I'm not sure whether to be disappointed or happy with the fact that people don't like a character just because they're "hot blooded". I do think I like "hot blooded" characters, though. Or at least infectiously positive ones. And Snow was probably one of the most enjoyable characters from Final Fantasy XIII. His positive attitude and lack of angst was enjoyable. I don't like the association of "hot bloodedness" with masculinity. But I do like a positive attitude and that goes a long way toward me liking characters, and Lightning lacked an endearing attitude.
Other than that, I'm fine with Lightning. Squall isn't a very compelling character to me, as I find Zidane to have a better attitude. But otherwise I have little problem with Squall. And Cloud's "angst" is vastly over-estimated. For most of Final Fantasy VII, Cloud wasn't exactly "angsty", not that there's anything wrong with angst. It seems like people have such strong opinions about Cloud and Squall, either positive or negative. I think their personalities are just okay, and that's exactly how I feel about Lightning. I would prefer a difference of attitude, but it doesn't stop me from liking her at all.
I feel like the biggest problem with Lighting is that she's attached to poor games that people are tired of. Final Fantasy XIII has a fanbase, but many of us out there found the game very unenjoyable, and certainly didn't want sequels of any sort to the games.
I don't think it's that Lighting is bad, it's that people are tired of the universe she belongs to. In fact, I think the focus on her as an important character is a good one. She was one of the most interesting characters when Final Fantasy XIII was revealed. And I'm very happy that Square Enix are making a female character important. It's everything I've wanted Square Enix to do for many years. But I, too, am not very interested in the Final Fantasy XIII universe. And honestly, Lighting herself seems more interesting than the games she belongs to.
I'm also honestly not all that impressed in some of the ways they've taken her. They've gone from making her "butch", to making her more feminine for the final release. Now they've boasted that they've made her breasts bigger. Lightning is becoming a lot less interesting with how they're treating her. It's as if they're going down a similar route for her as they went with Yuna from Final Fantasy X/X-2.
I hope that Square Enix continuing to make female characters important in the future. And that Lightning being an important character is something as an attitude that continues on to the future. For good reason Lightning was one of the things that excited me most about Final Fantasy XIII years ago. I would very much like to see important, badass female protagonists from Square Enix in the future. Unfortunately, Lightning is attached to a universe I am quite tired of.
I generally like androgynous characters, anyway. And Naoto is easily my favourite character in Persona 4. As far as I'm concerned, Final Fantasy needs more androgynous characters and more androgyny, not less.
I was also even moreso, excited for the prospect of for once, a truly female protagonist in a Final Fantasy game. Before the game was released and I realized how flawed it was, I was quite enamored by the idea of a badass female character with a gunblade.
When the game was released, however, Lighting was not only feminized(which there's nothing wrong with that, but I did like the original "butch" Lightning design). But her personality was a bit disappointing. As many have pointed out, she can be a bit similar to Cloud and Squall in the worst of ways. I think that hot-blooded personalities are a bit overrated. And I'm actually a bit happy that people don't like Snow just because he's "hot blooded". But it is appealing to have characters with a positive attitude who aren't always overly serious and brooding. I would have liked a little more of Snow's attitude in Lightning, I think.
My favourite Final Fantasy protagonist is Zidane. I find his womanizing rather annoying. But other than that, I like and miss plucky and positive characters. I like and prefer more plucky characters like that, even though I have no problem with angst. A lot of people found Snow rather annoying, I'm not sure whether to be disappointed or happy with the fact that people don't like a character just because they're "hot blooded". I do think I like "hot blooded" characters, though. Or at least infectiously positive ones. And Snow was probably one of the most enjoyable characters from Final Fantasy XIII. His positive attitude and lack of angst was enjoyable. I don't like the association of "hot bloodedness" with masculinity. But I do like a positive attitude and that goes a long way toward me liking characters, and Lightning lacked an endearing attitude.
Other than that, I'm fine with Lightning. Squall isn't a very compelling character to me, as I find Zidane to have a better attitude. But otherwise I have little problem with Squall. And Cloud's "angst" is vastly over-estimated. For most of Final Fantasy VII, Cloud wasn't exactly "angsty", not that there's anything wrong with angst. It seems like people have such strong opinions about Cloud and Squall, either positive or negative. I think their personalities are just okay, and that's exactly how I feel about Lightning. I would prefer a difference of attitude, but it doesn't stop me from liking her at all.
I feel like the biggest problem with Lighting is that she's attached to poor games that people are tired of. Final Fantasy XIII has a fanbase, but many of us out there found the game very unenjoyable, and certainly didn't want sequels of any sort to the games.
I don't think it's that Lighting is bad, it's that people are tired of the universe she belongs to. In fact, I think the focus on her as an important character is a good one. She was one of the most interesting characters when Final Fantasy XIII was revealed. And I'm very happy that Square Enix are making a female character important. It's everything I've wanted Square Enix to do for many years. But I, too, am not very interested in the Final Fantasy XIII universe. And honestly, Lighting herself seems more interesting than the games she belongs to.
I'm also honestly not all that impressed in some of the ways they've taken her. They've gone from making her "butch", to making her more feminine for the final release. Now they've boasted that they've made her breasts bigger. Lightning is becoming a lot less interesting with how they're treating her. It's as if they're going down a similar route for her as they went with Yuna from Final Fantasy X/X-2.
I hope that Square Enix continuing to make female characters important in the future. And that Lightning being an important character is something as an attitude that continues on to the future. For good reason Lightning was one of the things that excited me most about Final Fantasy XIII years ago. I would very much like to see important, badass female protagonists from Square Enix in the future. Unfortunately, Lightning is attached to a universe I am quite tired of.
But a piece of paper doesn't have much depth at all, unless I'm missing something??
To me, Lightning just doesn't have a likeable personality. And her voice is just terrible (the directing of it).
No it wasn't, what are you talking about?
I just had to refresh my memory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKkCNF1ZwHU
Yeah.. that's her character alright, lol.
Good analysis, it is pretty much this. And that the games themselves aren't examples for amazing Final Fantasy quality doesn't help it either. And now they put her in a dress up game.
Yep, she is Toriyama's fantasy and she, as a character, can't really help it. She unfortunately has no memorable character development to make up for the shortcomings of the games.
For what it's worth, there surely is a Lightning fanbase, as well as defense force. I guess here's your answer OP.
Here is the best possible explanation I can give you as someone who actually liked Lightning. The reasons are twofold: the first is that the FNC, in many ways, to Western Fans more especially, was a critical failure. Consider: We're 8 years in and Versus, which is now XV has yet to launch. Type-0 was never localized. And XIII was a massive disappointment. It is a broken game, the skeleton with skin painted on and nothing more. Rarely can you deviate from your course, myriad Final Fantasy staples are gone without reason, you cannot back track until the end of the game, and compared to its immediate predecessor, XII, it is barren in every way save visuals. People like to chime and harp that every Final Fantasy is different, but it is a rare day when there is less to a Final Fantasy than its predecessor. Even the transition from IX to X saw X come out with plenty of sidequests, towns to revisit, optional summons and the like.
But I digress, the point is, the FNC has been a pretty large disappointment, and that would be all well and fine except it keeps going. XIII-2 has the worst plot of any Final Fantasy ever made, and ends requiring another sequel after forcing its own self into existence (XIII's plot's problems not withstanding, it wrapped up conclusively enough for all to be satisfied.) So the FNC JUST. KEEPS. GOING. And it never really improves, and it never makes a clean break. Note that XIV, now vastly improved, garners mostly positive commentary, but XIII is still prisoner of itself, and until it ends, will remain such.
Now, what does this have to do with Lightning? Well Square's made her the face of whole project. The mascot of your product is then received in accordance with your product. People love Cloud because FFVII was great, and he reminds them of the fun they had in that game. People hate Lightning, simply enough, because she reminds them of how disappointing FFXIII continues to be. Yet Square continues to promote her, and at times sleights its own history to do it (surely you have seen the threads in which they insist she is the first and greatest strong female protagonist in the series, thereby sleighting Terra, Yuna and Ashe as if they were nothing.) And of course her cropping up in games like XIV and XHD has left some people salty, but all of it really stems from the fact that as the face of the game, she is the lightning rod for all the hatred people feel toward XIII and, at the same time, their hatred for Square's insane practices as well.
The other reason, at least for someone like me, who liked Lightning in XIII, is because she's been completely altered from her original character. In XIII she's a disgruntled cop who is mad at the world and trying to save her sister. She's angry, snarky, and hot-blooded. In XIII-2 she's none of these things. She's some pure and perfect waif at the beck and call of a God (mind you she spent last game fighting these Gods). And now in XIII-3 she's a Savior or something even though originally, her appeal was being a person from an everyday job dragged into saving the world. Add to this Toriyama's creepy fixation on her (comparing her to roses and crystals with piano accompaniment is unforgettable) and there you really have it.
So, to summarize, people either hate her because Square has made her the face of the generation and lots of people hate the generation and Lightning as its symbol, or because Square has bastardized her character (and really the whole FNC mythos) ever since XIII-2.
Like seriously, I was just fine with XIII, even if it disappointed me. It wasn't until XIII-2's horrible ending that I joined the ranks of those who hate her.
But I digress, the point is, the FNC has been a pretty large disappointment, and that would be all well and fine except it keeps going. XIII-2 has the worst plot of any Final Fantasy ever made, and ends requiring another sequel after forcing its own self into existence (XIII's plot's problems not withstanding, it wrapped up conclusively enough for all to be satisfied.) So the FNC JUST. KEEPS. GOING. And it never really improves, and it never makes a clean break. Note that XIV, now vastly improved, garners mostly positive commentary, but XIII is still prisoner of itself, and until it ends, will remain such.
Now, what does this have to do with Lightning? Well Square's made her the face of whole project. The mascot of your product is then received in accordance with your product. People love Cloud because FFVII was great, and he reminds them of the fun they had in that game. People hate Lightning, simply enough, because she reminds them of how disappointing FFXIII continues to be. Yet Square continues to promote her, and at times sleights its own history to do it (surely you have seen the threads in which they insist she is the first and greatest strong female protagonist in the series, thereby sleighting Terra, Yuna and Ashe as if they were nothing.) And of course her cropping up in games like XIV and XHD has left some people salty, but all of it really stems from the fact that as the face of the game, she is the lightning rod for all the hatred people feel toward XIII and, at the same time, their hatred for Square's insane practices as well.
The other reason, at least for someone like me, who liked Lightning in XIII, is because she's been completely altered from her original character. In XIII she's a disgruntled cop who is mad at the world and trying to save her sister. She's angry, snarky, and hot-blooded. In XIII-2 she's none of these things. She's some pure and perfect waif at the beck and call of a God (mind you she spent last game fighting these Gods). And now in XIII-3 she's a Savior or something even though originally, her appeal was being a person from an everyday job dragged into saving the world. Add to this Toriyama's creepy fixation on her (comparing her to roses and crystals with piano accompaniment is unforgettable) and there you really have it.
So, to summarize, people either hate her because Square has made her the face of the generation and lots of people hate the generation and Lightning as its symbol, or because Square has bastardized her character (and really the whole FNC mythos) ever since XIII-2.
Like seriously, I was just fine with XIII, even if it disappointed me. It wasn't until XIII-2's horrible ending that I joined the ranks of those who hate her.
Axelstream
Member
Well said. I don't dislike Lightning to begin with, but she's just too antagonistic and unreliable of a character for me to connect with. She literally berates every single main character at some point or another, and her motivations swung wildly between XIII and XIII-2. In some ways, Lightning is an important lesson -- a "strong" female character is more than just physical strength and a sharp tongue.
I've said before that I like Noel a lot, and even though he really doesn't have much of a character arc, he is a likeable personality with clear-cut (but not caricatured) motivations and values. Meanwhile, Lightning's standoffish manner always hints at, but never resolves in, emotional depth. Like Noel her character also lacks an arc, but her basic personality is so uncharismatic that she is difficult to empathize with on any level.
That's my point. She lacks depth.
She has little-to-no development, and her constant monotone voice and self-righteousness is waaaay too annoying. They tried to make her a feminine version of Cloud Strife down to her visual design, but failed to add what makes Cloud a great character: Development and an actual arc.
It also doesn't help that she stars or appears on two of the worst "main" Final Fantasy games since the NES era. Let's not forget the fact the she has been shoved down our throats by Square-Enix, when it's clear fans wanted the series to move on.
It also doesn't help that she stars or appears on two of the worst "main" Final Fantasy games since the NES era. Let's not forget the fact the she has been shoved down our throats by Square-Enix, when it's clear fans wanted the series to move on.
Basically this. Lightning was one of the few enjoyable things about FF13....for at least as much as i played through it. I think people just dont like FF13.
Coldnoodle
Member
She's the John Cena of Final Fantasy.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
I can't even acknowledge Lightning as a fictional character because she's so badly written. It's Toriyama I hate. Go choke on a *&#@.
Altered Juice
Member
isn't she like, popular in japan or something?
She has a dedicated fanbase, but she isn't overwhelmingly popular in any particular place
Omg... I didn't get this until now....
I don't hate Lightning, but I can't say I like her all that much because of her stereotypical tropes and borderline Mary Stu-esque character writing.
Like, from a practical standpoint, I was okay with her punching characters I didn't like all that much in XIII. From a writing standpoint, you have a pretty awful human being who is still glorified somewhat by characters in the game. She "develops" in the sense that she all of a sudden starts being stoically nice when she comes to a pretty hamfisted epiphany 1/4ths into the game. And to rectify all of this, the director decides to perplexity make her into a valkyrie version of the Silver Surfer by serving gods and giving her super powers while she gives expository and dead-pan monologues throughout scenes in XIII-2 and seemingly in LR as well.
And at this point, I'm just completely indifferent to this character they decided to attempt to focus a generation on.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Hmmm... she's beautiful looking. Excellent design. I kinda like that she's a badass fighter but uh, she's basically a bald space marine.
She could have been a great character. A lot of the problems with her and her game stem from the lack of effect story telling and the reliance on that codex bullshit to provide substance to the boring and played out expository scenes. And it's so fucking goofy that the melodrama (which FF uses heavily) fails.
The lapses in logic and common sense begin to compound upon each other within the first 30 fucking minutes of this game. It's hilariously bad, like MST3K bad and thus, so good.
She could have been a great character. A lot of the problems with her and her game stem from the lack of effect story telling and the reliance on that codex bullshit to provide substance to the boring and played out expository scenes. And it's so fucking goofy that the melodrama (which FF uses heavily) fails.
The lapses in logic and common sense begin to compound upon each other within the first 30 fucking minutes of this game. It's hilariously bad, like MST3K bad and thus, so good.
I always found that people who say that Cloud and Squall are angsty, never actually played the first games they starred in.
Cloud was far, FAR from angsty in Final Fantasy VII. But suddenly he is angsty in Advent Children (He had pretty good reasons, too), and then he is "Cloud -Full of Angst- Strife" by his haters.
And Squall was more of a jackass and a douche instead of angsty. Sure, the guy had deep issues, more related to the facts that he was abandoned and never knew any real family, but instead of weeping and crying like most people seem to picture him (Again, people who just hate but never actually played the game), Squall just started to act like a damn jerk to everyone around him.
Edge_Maverick
Member
Bland character that I find difficult to care about.
But no, I don't hate her.
But no, I don't hate her.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Everyone else pretty much covered it.
She a soulless, flat dull character. And she's also an unlikable asshole who they think is cool and edgy. Oh wait, that's just in XIII, because they change her character every game in a sad attempt to try and find a version of her that people actually like.
On top of all this, they shoehorn her into everything they can for the past 10 years and make her the face of everything that's wrong with SE currently.
She a soulless, flat dull character. And she's also an unlikable asshole who they think is cool and edgy. Oh wait, that's just in XIII, because they change her character every game in a sad attempt to try and find a version of her that people actually like.
On top of all this, they shoehorn her into everything they can for the past 10 years and make her the face of everything that's wrong with SE currently.
Your Username beats her out on a shortlist of the worst lead characters in a Jrpg this gen, that's for sure.
Squall is always the weird one. People try to call him emo, and completely ignore the fact he DOESN'T want peoples attention. In fact he goes out of his way to not get put in the middle, yet Emos are trying to get everyone to look at them and give them attention.
Squall is a dick who has abandonment issues, not an emo.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Honestly, I far prefer Edge as a character. That's how bad Lightning is.
DeviousAngel
Member
"People" don't hate lightning. GAF hates lightning. If people in general hated her, she wouldn't be the current figurehead of the Final Fantasy series.
It's not like other subsequent games didn't have sky-themed names for their protags. e.g. Tidus, Squall.
Exactly.
People can like or dislike Cloud and Squall, but I always find that most of the "dislikers" have weird reasons. You can hate Squall for being a fucking douchebag, and his constant "Whatever..." (Loved that myself), but hating them for being "angsty"?
I can get the hate Cloud gets for his Advent Children attitude (Doesn't bother me), but it seemed like it retroactively made Cloud an "angsty character", like "he always was".
People just love to jump into the bandwagon.
Unknown One
Member
Only a figurehead because SE wants to reuse assets for a quick cash ins. We FF fans had no say in that.
You do know that sales of FF are going down faster with each release and her games are crtically being panned compared to the rest?
That's says a lot more then just Gaf have a problem with her.
I'm genuinely surprised that the dislike/indifference for Lightning is just chalked up as a "GAF thing," like they don't visit any other gaming forum or talk to people playing the series ever.
yup, it's not just GAF. check comment sections for anything related to her anywhere. we are not alone.
Or even enter some sales threads here.
We are about to experience a console FF that will have smaller LTD then multiple Tales Of games and likely not even crack 1 ww sale through or at the very least have the worst ever sales for a console FF in japan.
If there's ever a VII remake just wait for Cloud's Honey Bee Inn moment.Lightning is really Cloud in drag.
Exactly what I was looking for.No. THIS is Cloud in a drag:
came to post this.
they're not allowing us to organically like the character like Cloud. they say
"Hey this is what you liked about Cloud, lets shove it down your mouth with Lightning!"
and plus her games stories suck...
And let's not forget Mukki.....
VeryGooster
Banned
She's so bland yet SE sees this weird potential in her that they've devoted assets to her across three games. I think FF XIII is honestly the most disappointing game of this passing generation (didn't play a whole lot of XIII-2 and Lightning Returns will be a $10 buy for me down the road), and it seems like she's just become sort of the mascot/manifested idea of everything people loathe in SE today.
She is Square Enix's Poochie.
She is Square Enix's Poochie.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
It's not really outright hate, I think.
It's more that she comes from games with forgettable stories, annoying character, and questionable design choices, and Square's insistence of shoving her into the spotlight often comes off as either "don't play coy, we know you actually love her!" and "maybe they will like her if we put her in this!"
I mean, she's the main character of a game that got very mixed reception, and Square would have been better served to go back to the drawing board, IMO. Instead they pump out a trilogy of games that sit in the "meh" to "good, but not at all great" range.
It's more that she comes from games with forgettable stories, annoying character, and questionable design choices, and Square's insistence of shoving her into the spotlight often comes off as either "don't play coy, we know you actually love her!" and "maybe they will like her if we put her in this!"
I mean, she's the main character of a game that got very mixed reception, and Square would have been better served to go back to the drawing board, IMO. Instead they pump out a trilogy of games that sit in the "meh" to "good, but not at all great" range.
I played through the entirety of FFXIII and don't recall much about her character other than she's utterly forgettable. I recall her being like Squall from FFXIII: arrogant, unrelatable, and a one-dimensional cardboard cutout personality. She even looks like Squall, which makes sense given Tetsuya Nomura's embarrassingly uncreative character designs. In other words, I'd say she represents everything terrible about modern Final Fantasy. The fact that Square keeps using her shows they are creatively bankrupt.
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